ie8 fix

Windows 7: Beta testers, not Microsoft, need more feedback

By | February 25, 2009, 5:20am PST

Summary: When I saw Windows 7 chief Steven Sinofsky had published another (epic-length) post, entitled “Feedback and Engineering Windows 7, I was encouraged. Until I read the post, that is.

When I asked last week what Windows 7 testers wanted, the predominant answer was more information — specifically more information about which bugs were being fixed (and not) as the product progressed through the pipeline.

When I saw Windows 7 chief Steven Sinofsky had published another (epic-length) post, entitled “Feedback and Engineering Windows 7, I was encouraged. Until I read the post, that is.

If you want more information on how Microsoft obtains feedback and debates that feedback internally, this Februrary 25 entry is your post. If you were hoping for more about how and when the team was going to relay that feedback to its testers, you won’t be happy.

Some interesting factoids from the post:

  • During the first few week of the Windows 7 beta, more than 1 million people downloaded and installed it.
  • Microsoft has released a “reliability update” test release for Windows 7 testers with Internet Explorer 8. (My blogging colleague Zack Whittaker has more thoughts on that IE 8 update.)
  • “During a peak week in January we (the Windows dev team) were receiving one Send Feedback report every 15 seconds for an entire week, and to date we’ve received well over 500,000 of these reports.”
  • Microsoft has “fixes in the pipeline for nearly 2,000 bugs in Windows code (not in third party drivers or applications) that caused crashes or hangs.”

That’s great. Microsoft is getting a lot of feedback about Windows 7. What kind of feedback are testers getting from the team in return? Very little. I get lots of e-mail from testers asking me whether Microsoft has fixed specific bugs that have been reported on various comment boards and Web sites. I have no idea, and neither do they.

The feedback loop cannot continue indefinitely. But would finding some way to relay to testers which bugs have been fixed and which haven’t derail the development process?

Sinofsky doesn’t address that issue specifically in the post. He repeats the new Microsoft mantra — “Shipping is a feature.” Specifically, in his words:

“(U)ltimately on the Windows development team we have to make a call as we’re seeing a lot of people are looking forward to us finishing Windows 7, which means we need to stop changing the product and ship it.”

That’s definitely true, but don’t the testers spending hours, days and weeks providing you with feedback deserve more information back from Microsoft? Any thoughts about how Microsoft might provide more and better tester feedback with the least amount of time/effort?

Update: Speaking of Windows 7, Microsoft rolled out an update to Windows 7 yesterday. This wasn’t one of the “placeholder” updates that it is delivering this week just for test purposes. The February 24 update was “an app compat refresh for Window 7 and is focused on older PC games,” according to a company spokesperson.

Update No. 2 (February 26): Microsoft has begun posting details on some of the changes it is making to Windows 7 in response to tester feedback on the Engineering Windows 7 blog.

Kick off your day with ZDNet's daily e-mail newsletter. It's the freshest tech news and opinion, served hot. Get it.

Topics

Mary Jo has covered the tech industry for more than 25 years for a variety of publications and Web sites, and is a frequent guest on radio, TV and podcasts, speaking about all things Microsoft-related. She is the author of Microsoft 2.0: How Microsoft plans to stay relevant in the post-Gates era (John Wiley & Sons, 2008).

Disclosure

Mary-Jo Foley

Freelance journalist/blogger Mary Jo Foley has nothing to disclose. WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get). I do not own Microsoft stock or stock in any of its partners or competitors. I have no business ventures that are sponsored by/funded by Microsoft or any of its partners or competitors.

Biography

Mary-Jo Foley

Mary Jo Foley has covered the tech industry for 25 years for a variety of publications, including ZDNet, eWeek and Baseline. She has kept close tabs on Microsoft strategy, products and technologies for the past 10 years. In the late 1990s, she penned the award-winning "At The Evil Empire" column for ZDNet, and more recently the Microsoft Watch blog for Ziff Davis.

Got a tip? Send her an email with your rants, rumors, tips and tattles. Confidentiality guaranteed.

Related Discussions on TechRepublic

Did you know you can take part in these discussions with your ZDNet membership?
40
Comments

Join the conversation!

Just In

RE: Windows 7: Beta testers, not Microsoft, need more feedback
makrekwe64-24353628012227401699522493089108 11th Nov
ibfccd,good post!
0 Votes
+ -
Public Beta Testers are given a ....
ShadeTree 25th Feb 2009
... chance to try Windows 7 for no charge. They are entitled to nothing in return. Formal beta testers file bugs and receive feedback on those bugs and fixes. It is quite unmanageable to provide feedback to a million people and Microsoft never commited to doing so. If you don't like it, I suggest to format your hard drive and go back to what ever OS you were using before.
0 Votes
+ -
Contributr
why testers test
Mary Jo Foley 25th Feb 2009
Hi. I think some testers download and test betas because they enjoy the process and like to be "in the know." But at least on the business side of the world, many are in betas because they are trying to get a jump on knowing which software they own will work and not work with a still-unfinished OS or browser. They do it for planning purposes. I'd argue -- as I bet many of them would, too -- that they would like more information on whether/when a bug will be fixed.

Thanks. MJ
0 Votes
+ -
.... Microsoft gathers all the feedback and fixes what is causing issues for the majority of users on a priority basis. What they don't do is fix issues caused by 3rd party applications or drivers. That is up to the authors of those items. I can tell you on the driver side we, (OEMS), receive very detailed reports on which of our drivers are causing issues. We use that information to update them accordingly.

The point of a public beta is to get user feedback not to provide it. While the users might desire that feedback it simply is not possible due to the high number of participants and costs involved.
0 Votes
+ -
You forget developers MJ
No_Ax_to_Grind 25th Feb 2009
And in my opinion they are the ones that need to test the most. If that had happened in the past maybe Vista would not have been such a flop.

We seen there were needed changes in our products to work with Vista and during the beta testing we found "issues". (Many of the MS "Controls" would not work with Vista's security.) Trying to ask MS if something would be fixed by RTM was useless. You could have asked a rock and gotten more feed back. The end result, millions if users installed Vista only to find their favorite apps failed to work properly.

One of MS's biggest issues on feedback is testers are left clueless if a problem they find is a one off or if its a problem for many. If MS would rate reported bugs by numbers of instances it would go a very long way in helping developers. If two guys in the world found a bug its not a huge issue. If 25% of the testers find the same bug then its a huge issue and developers need to pay attention to writing their code around it (or beg MS to fix it). If MS were up front and say, "we are not fixing this issue" before RTM then at least the dev folks know they need to code around it.

The problem is, MS will NEVER admit a large perentage of testers are seeing problems. That is not good marketing.

0 Votes
+ -
Total mis-statement of what occurred.
ShadeTree 25th Feb 2009
Because application developers used bad practices and did not follow Microsoft advice their applications failed. This was not a Vista problem. Try writing your application with in the guidelines.
0 Votes
+ -
...if only Microsoft followed it's own "best practices". However, there are two sets of rules, those for MS and those for third party developers.
Breaking news! I've heard that Microsoft suddenly changed their policy, they've decided to become open and share their "best practices" with the rest of Windows developers! Oh no, wait, that would require them becoming open... never mind.
0 Votes
+ -
They do share their best practices.
ShadeTree 26th Feb 2009
It starts with don't run every application as administrator. Haven't you ever been to a developers conference?
0 Votes
+ -
Several.
914four 26th Feb 2009
But not in the past couple of years; and I learned from experience to take what I heard with a grain of salt.
0 Votes
+ -
Wrong, it was Mictosoft's
No_Ax_to_Grind 26th Feb 2009
controls that could not work properly under Vista. Specifically video overlays with Areo turned on.
"I stared, in horror, as chkdsk replaced all of my security descriptors on my 10, 000 files and replaced them with "default security id's"."
http://www.eggheadcafe.com/software/aspnet/32455222/chkdsk-in-vista-32bit-sp.aspx


Wait until it happens to you. Then you'll find out it's been over 10 years and MS has failed to fix this catastrophic bug.

Microsoft! FIX THIS BUG!!!
0 Votes
+ -
got a KB article number ?
rtk Updated - 25th Feb 2009
or just the rantings of a single person, backed up by another than admits he might've screwed up his drive with paragon.

MS can't provide a software fix to hardware failures or user created issues with low level hardware.

It'd be like demanding MS fix the bug of allowing formatting of a drive and the subsequent lose of data.
Okay, so last I heard there were 94,000 MS employees world wide. I'm guessing that *maybe* 4000 to 5000 of them actually work on Windows. I don't have actual numbers, sorry, I'm pulling them out of the air. Consider them "statics" if that makes it easier for you to drink the koolaid.

With bug fixes already done, plus bug fixes that still need to be made, testing that needs to be done, etc.

Where would they get the TIME to reply back to half a million and increasing feedback submissions?

Here's how I look at it. The feedback will com in the form of RC or Release.

When you get it and try it, if the bug no longer exists, then hey, it got fixed, and maybe you (whichever hunreds of "you"s submitted the feedback about that particular issue) had a hand in pushing that particular bug into the "need to fix" category.

After 14+ years in the software industry, I can tell you that the only "bug free" software that I know of is "Hello world." And that's only if the person typing in the code didn't make a mistake.
0 Votes
+ -
Beta Testers vs. Beta "Users"
Confused by religion Updated - 25th Feb 2009
The people who downloaded the beta from where ever they found it (microsoft, torrents, etc.) are NOT beta testers. They are beta users.

Beta users are not entitled to anything more than a free glimpse at whatever product they downloaded to use.

Beta testers have an entirely different expectation of and from Microsoft and have access to tools and reporting instruments beta users don't.

Including the beta users in the overly broad term "testers" does a disservice to the people who _are_ testers and really put the code through the wringer to find bugs, reliability issues, and potential crashes.

I have been on many Windows and Office betas and I know the difference between testers and users.
0 Votes
+ -
That's an excellent idea!
emcauley 25th Feb 2009
You heard it folks! Format your hard drives and stop testing MS's new operating system!

I am sure Redmond would be more than just a bit concerned about that advice.
0 Votes
+ -
What's the point?
gdfg@... 25th Feb 2009
What's the point giving feedback to beta testers? Downloading the beta does not grant them anything more than the right to test the software and report bugs. And having no feedback doesn't block them from continuing testing the software.
Since Windows 7, they never announced a feature unless they are 100% confident they can ship it, I don't see why people think it's not going to be the same for bug fixes.
0 Votes
+ -
Boy, does Windows need testing...
gregory.dworak@... 25th Feb 2009
Here is a nice little tidbit about putting all your eggs in the Microsoft basket: http://www.defenceaviation.com/2009/02/french-fighter-planes-grounded-by.html

It seems third world countries have added a new weapon to their arsenal, it is call Microsoft Windows. Man, I'm glad I'm a Mac user.
0 Votes
+ -
Jumping to wrong conclusions ....
ShadeTree Updated - 25th Feb 2009
.... seems to be an Olympic sport for Mac users. The worm in question attacks a vulnerability that Microsoft has already patched. The article in question indicts the French government more then it does Microsoft. Why weren't their systems patched? I wouldn't expect you to understand that. After all, you are just a Mac user!
0 Votes
+ -
Yea, just a lowly Mac user...
gregory.dworak@... 25th Feb 2009
Who never once had to deal with a Virus, Malware, Blue Screen of Death, Trojans and all those other nasties Windows user are confounded by each day. Yea, I'm just an ignorant hick Mac user who likes to use his computer for productive reasons instead of running virus scans and re-imaging my machine every six months. Ignorance is bliss indeed.
0 Votes
+ -
Funny that!
ShadeTree 25th Feb 2009
I use multiple computers running Windows and don't deal with Virus, Malware, BSOD or Trojans on a daily basis. I also use my computer for productive purposes. My virus scans run in background and I don't have to re-image my machines ever. So yes in using a generalization and describing problems that many users don't face you did demonstrate your ignorance of the subject.
0 Votes
+ -
You, either? You, too?
MGP2 25th Feb 2009
I use multiple computers running Windows and don't deal with Virus, Malware, BSOD or Trojans on a daily basis.

Me, neither.

I also use my computer for productive purposes.

Me, too.

Yea, I'm just an ignorant hick Mac user who likes to use his computer for productive reasons instead of running virus scans and re-imaging my machine every six months.

Well, I'm no ignorant hick. I'm not a Mac user. I use my Windows computers for productive reasons. Like ShadeTree, my scans run in the background. And the only machines I ever image, are the ones that come in at work and are imaged to a particular dept.

So, what was the problem he was having again?
0 Votes
+ -
The aircraft were unable to download their flight plans after databases were infected by a Microsoft virus they had already been warned about several months beforehand.

A microsoft virus, you say? Gee, I didn't know Microsoft was now in the business of writing viruses.
0 Votes
+ -
From the article you link to...
Sleeper Service Updated - 25th Feb 2009
"Microsoft had warned that the "Conficker" virus, transmitted through Windows, was attacking computer systems in October last year, but according to reports the French military ignored the warning and failed to install the necessary security measures."

kthxbai.
0 Votes
+ -
Seriously. Military planes shouldn't be grounded because of a computer system issue. They should be able to operate through alternate means.
0 Votes
+ -
Exactly...
storm14k 26th Feb 2009
....like a non MS based backup system.
0 Votes
+ -
they were warned.
unholytech 25th Feb 2009
in the reading of this the French navy were
warned of a possible impending infection and
they also admitted

"Naval officials said the "infection"' was
probably due more to negligence than a
deliberate attempt to compromise French
national security. It said it suspected someone
at the navy had used an infected USB key."

They got all issues rectified before any real
damage was done.
the OS had nothing to do with it just the
operators not installing the proper patches in
a timely manner.

UNHOLYTECH
I have been a beta tester with MS for about 4 years. I spent over 100 hours testing Vista, and submitted about 25 bugs. Some were major, like blue screen of death, and MS labeled "by design". I caught these bugs while still in Beta, before RC releases.

I was accepted into Win7 beta, but I am relunctant to do to much testing, as I just end up disappointed when MS says no to fixing. They did fix ~3 of the 25 bugs I submitted for Vista.
One other comment I have, is the greatest reward MS can give to their beta testers (atleast the keen beta testers), is taking beta tester feedback seriously. I would have much greater satisfaction in knowing that my suggestions/bugs were implemented in the next product release. Rather than just getting the final version of the software for free, or some trinket. The casual testers might just be in it for the free schwag.
0 Votes
+ -
Tell us
CrashPad 25th Feb 2009
What was the BSOD from? What hardware driver?
0 Votes
+ -
RE:Tell us
msbetatester 25th Feb 2009
Well, the BSOD is built into Vista and Vista SP1. A certain sequence of events...total unrelated to hardware, or device drivers in any way. I have reproduced it on all hardware I have tried on...problem is hardware independant. Havn't tried it on 64 bit yet though. The same procedure does not cause WinXP to crash. I suspect a crafty hacker could devise a method to use my reported exploit to BSOD computers, as I am sure a Macro could be easily created on a timer with my keystroke sequence, resulting in the system going down. I don't want to share any more about the bug for fear of someone creating an exploit.
Vista's two years old now, we'd all love to see what you think you've found.

0 Votes
+ -
4,713 words
rseiler 25th Feb 2009
At that length, "Feedback and Engineering Windows 7" is clearly designed to hoodwink us into forgetting that the RC release probably won't be out for another 6 weeks or so and won't eliminate 99% of our complaints. After all, that's about the time we'll need to actually finish reading the article.

Alternative theory: Word 14, which Sinofsky is most likely using, no longer supports editing, as part of MS's upcoming "easy AND simple" campaign.
0 Votes
+ -
...gets funnier by the day. All she is saying is that a feedback loop would be nice so that you have a greater chance to shape the product you are about to buy thereby making it better for YOU. And yet people actually fight to defend MS in whatever they do even if it means they don't really want to here what you have to say while you give them your money.

I mean come on folk...a simple update push is not gonna kill them. The software will still cut off on the date its supposed to.
0 Votes
+ -
Mushrooms
kjrider@... 25th Feb 2009
Windows beta 7 testers are like mushroom - kept in the dark and fed ****!

Having tested some of the previous ones, I have given up being a free tester for Win 7. Too much hassle, and no rewards.

Be nice if we had something good out of it, like a discount on buying Win 7 or summat.
0 Votes
+ -
I agree with you
914four 25th Feb 2009
I too used to be a beta tester (starting with NT 3.1) but I gave it up when Vista arrived. The first thing that really bothered me was that the Beta wouldn't run after install if the machine wasn't connected to the internet. It sort of went downhill from there...
I agree that Microsoft does not have the time to answer 500,000 suggestions. But here's a novel idea: If you are using win7 and you are not still having the problem, I'd say problem solved. I am a big fan of actions speak louder than words.

Just one opinion.
0 Votes
+ -
Why not just post a version update TXT
boed Updated - 25th Feb 2009
OK - MS doesn't want to reply to all of us individually - fine - post an update TXT file or HTML.

I can go to many app web sites and if I want to know what is different between version 4.1 and 4.2 and 4.3 of their software or drivers - e.g.

Vista - SP3 Updates
Changed splash screen to read Windows 7
Fixed useless indexing - improves performance and extends hard drive MTBF
Reduced DRM level - improves performance
Fixed aero interface - no longer requires 6GB of video memory if you have 4 apps open

Includes classic start option - we relize we were ticking off our existing clients by trying to please new clients.

Included FLAC playback with Windows Media Player - since everyone else has it in their streaming media player we decided we should too.

etc. etc.

Vista SP2
Added drivers for HP scanner model 3xxx
Made Clippy the default search animated character - at the request of Ballmer/Lucas

Vista SP1
...


That way we know if MS actually heard any of our requests.
From a Vista point of view, my broken Window will still do broadband. But, removing some installed components caused for me and others from Yahoo grief. Having replaced a removed installation from Windows without having the safe feeling from XP SP2. The only problem there being it is a computer operating system not a rag.
when I risk my system I would like a discount but it does help in programing for new stuff!!!!!!!!!!!
Or since I run vista without what was promised I think it should be a very low price to upgrade, if not free, but luck for that.
Win 7 does work well but what about mail?
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Windows 7: Beta testers, not Microsoft, need more feedback
jackson1984-24316069205748857739440257893812 10th Oct
I equivalent to this blog site web page. I am going black ugg to most clearly be peeping into it regularly.
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Windows 7: Beta testers, not Microsoft, need more feedback
makrekwe64-24353628012227401699522493089108 11th Nov
ibfccd,good post!

Join the conversation!

Formatting +
BB Codes - Note: HTML is not supported in forums
  • [b] Bold [/b]
  • [i] Italic [/i]
  • [u] Underline [/u]
  • [s] Strikethrough [/s]
  • [q] "Quote" [/q]
  • [ol][*] 1. Ordered List [/ol]
  • [ul][*] · Unordered List [/ul]
  • [pre] Preformat [/pre]
  • [quote] "Blockquote" [/quote]
ie8 fix

The best of ZDNet, delivered

ZDNet Newsletters

Get the best of ZDNet delivered straight to your inbox

Facebook Activity

White Papers, Webcasts, & Resources
ie8 fix