ie8 fix

Linux as Wintel parasite

By | September 26, 2009, 12:15am PDT

Summary: When Linus Torvalds choose to tie his new kernel to x86 he did so thinking, quite correctly as it turned out, that Microsoft’s tendency to software bloat would provide an unending stream of cheep hardware for Linux developers and users. Great! except there’s a side effect: Linux is ultimately dependent on Microsoft because its raison d’etre f is almost literally to live on Microsoft’s leavings.

Last week Linus Torvalds told a seminar group at Portland’s LinuxCon that Linux is getting a little bloated - a consequence of the big blob kernel architecture required by his decision to prefer the efficiency of directly using x86 interrupts to the much more hardware independent architecture Tannenbaum developed Minix to teach.

Sun blogger Joerg Moellenkamp said something particularly interesting about this:

Of course it’s a nice sign of success, when people port more and more stuff to an operating environment and into the kernel. Perhaps this is the price of success. But at foremost it’s a problem. Bloat isn’t just about using more memory, it’s about speed as well.

The Register delivers another interesting piece of information:

Citing an internal Intel study that tracked kernel releases, Bottomley said Linux performance had dropped about two per centage points at every release, for a cumulative drop of about 12 per cent over the last ten releases.

Should they rearchitect Linux for the future (the SunOS/Solaris moment for the Linux community). And as refactoring, optimization and rearchitecting are tedious and boring tasks: Who will do it? I think, the next few years will be interesting ones for Linux.

Another speaker at the same event, IBM’s Bob Sutter, really needs to spend a few minutes looking at the history of his own company’s VM product line, but other than that came up with another absolute shocker: Linux won’t succeed on the desktop, he said, unless it creates a unique Linux desktop - or, in translation, that Linux can’t lead by following.

Personally I think that the SuSe business desktop does lead Microsoft in some areas, but, of course, Mr. Sutter wants to sell cloud computing - and so does Eric Mandel, CEO of a company called Blackmesh, providing managed Linux hosting services. He does a very sad and funny presentation on doing what they did: implementing a couple of open source deployment tools (Puppet and Cobbler) to make it fairly easy to configure and deploy Linux server/application combinations. This can be very important in their business, but I thought the retrograde nature of both the solution and its markets unhappily captured the essence of Linux today.

Basically he’s using an open source evolution of the old Jumpstart stuff to provision gear for customers who haven’t figured out yet that letting other people control both their data and their most critical business infrastructure is a recipe for coming to a quick and unhappy end. Cool stuff, for five years ago - but completely obsoleted for customers by today’s cost/risk trade-offs in doing it themselves and for techies by Solaris zones.

When you look at this kind of thing the contrast with BSD could hardly be greater. That group’s focus, despite their many divergences and disagreements, is always on better, faster, smaller - and Apple’s posture as the anti-IBM in personal computing carries over to its relationship with the BSD community: it’s the world’s biggest producer of Unix personal computers, but it doesn’t try to direct BSD research and it hasn’t tried to build services revenues on its own limitations.

Mr. Torvalds set out to build a “free Unix for the 386″ and succeeded brilliantly in doing so - but both its internal architecture and its market success depend on the peculiar dynamics of the wintel market in which x86 forms the common ground between the huge majority using Microsoft software and a rebel group looking for something to call its own.

Thus looking at it as an outsider, I’d say that much of what made headlines at Linuxcon 2009 was in one way or the other about the chickens associated with the reinvention of old technologies for commercial gain starting homeward -with all of it demonstrating that if the Linux community didn’t have Microsoft both to be against and to prop up their shared x86 foundations, it’d wouldn’t exist.

And that’s sad - but not irretrievable because at this point it’s fundamentally a leadership failure, not a community failure, and therefore something that could be changed.

Kick off your day with ZDNet's daily e-mail newsletter. It's the freshest tech news and opinion, served hot. Get it.

More from “Managing L'unix”

Topics

Paul Murphy (a pseudonym) is an IT consultant specializing in Unix and related technologies.

Disclosure

Paul Murphy

I do not work for, or otherwise receive anything from, any of the companies I write about. I have some money in a number of funds that bet on the markets, including the technology market, but have no direct control over how these funds are administered or what investments are made. I use Sun and Apple technology both at home and at work.

Biography

Paul Murphy

Originally a Math/Physics graduate who couldn't cut it in his own field, Paul Murphy (a pseudonym) became an IT consultant specializing in Unix and related technologies after a stint working for a DARPA contractor programming in Fortran and APL. Since then he's worked in both systems management and consulting for a range of employers including KPMG, the government of Alberta, and his own firm. In those roles he's "been there and done that" for just about every aspect of systems management and operation.

Related Discussions on TechRepublic

Did you know you can take part in these discussions with your ZDNet membership?
70
Comments

Join the conversation!

Just In

About other CPU ports...
Mitch 74 17th Nov 2009
As far as I know, most embedded Linux-based OSes are still using kernel 2.4 (which is still somewhat supported and maintained) for size reasons (a compiled 2.4 kernel can weigh half a MB while a corresponding 2.6 kernel will be twice the size), while 2.6 has gotten, if not more modular, at least more compartmentalized: of course the x86 port is still the one seeing the most work, but stuff like the scheduler and memory controller are now mostly platform-agnostic. In fact, on all release notes I've read for previous releases, most performance degradations were caused by:

- regressions, that are ultimately resolved (not all are, yet)

- code modularization: code that was specific to a platform is made into a module that must account for all platforms; in most cases, platform-specific speed hacks have to be removed.

Stop me if I'm wrong, but that was the case with the memory manager (SLAB now less used in favour of SLUB): SLUB is slower than SLAB, because (citing 2.6.31's doc): To some degree SLUB's performance is limited by the need to take the list_lock once in a while to deal with partial slabs. SLAB, however, can lead to heavy memory consumption due to its operational overhead on multicore systems (thus the creation of SLUB)

The same with the scheduler: CFS (Completely Fair Scheduler) was made to allow more reactive multitasking in a user-oriented context: its main interest (and I can personally attest to it) is that it allows user input and system reactivity to remain rather good even when the CPU is heavily taxed (something the previous scheduler, which merely gave CPU time to tasks with highest priority, didn't allow).

In short, while the Linux kernel does indeed get slower for heavy, server-oriented tasks, it gets better (a whole lot at that) at interactive use. Performance is rather subjective in that case.

Now, about ARM: according to Debian developers, it's not because Linux doesn't support ARM that it's slow; it's more because the original GNU C library itself doesn't support ARM well - thus, Debian Sid now uses eglibc (a heavily patched for ARM support version of glibc), which does.
0 Votes
+ -
You have some questionable ideas.
peter_erskine@... 26th Sep 2009
If Microsoft hadn't happened, there still would have been the PC, there still would have been GUIs (perhaps a more expensive IBM monopoly one), and there still would have been the opportunity for anyone such as Linus to write a free alternative.
I think to even use the word 'parasite' is unfortunate, and you deserve some flack.
Secondly, had you considered how all the standard C-library functions have now been deprecated at least so far as security is concerned on public-facing sites? That might be why there has been a 2% slowdown, as more involved paranoid routines must replace the standard functions.
Thirdly, what has the bit about Blackmesh and retrograde deployments got to do with all this? If you are enlightened you can do good deployments.
Fourthly, Apple's use of BSD is a special case because they DON'T have to make it install on 'any hardware' - just their own. They have a massive advantage in terms of size and perhaps also in tuning.
Fifthly, it is insulting to companies like Novell or Red Hat to use the expression "building services revenues on its own limitations". Or were you meaning IBM? Would Sun support charges be any different?
0 Votes
+ -
oh?
murph_z 26th Sep 2009
1) "If Microsoft hadn't happened" etc

Torvald's decision to go fit his kernel to x86 came from his perception that x86 hardware was cheap and plentiful - a consequence of the MS/IBM monopoly wars and software strategies.

Had no monopoly developed, there might well have been many more CPUs in use and that would have made the minix (OO micro-kernel) architecture the right "pragmatic" choice.

2 - the c-libs? Nothing's more secure (or faster) than OpenBSD and/or Solaris.

3 - "Thirdly, what has the bit about Blackmesh and retrograde deployments got to do with all this? If you are enlightened you can do good deployments."

Sure - but the customers buying this aren't thinking long term and the technology he uses is an extension of something the Solaris community has left behind. The point here is that it's good stuff, but for 2003/4, not 2009/10.

4 - is Apple special? Sure - but the point is that it's bigger than Linux and non intrusive.

5 - "Fifthly, it is insulting to companies like Novell or Red Hat to use the expression "building services revenues on its own limitations". Or were you meaning IBM?"

Why is it insulting? isn't this what all three do?

6 - "Would Sun support charges be any different?"

Yes - Solaris support charges are far less than those for Linux and are actually for support - not a wink nudge licensing scheme.
0 Votes
+ -
Rudy step away from the crack pipe!
junknstuff@... Updated - 26th Sep 2009
Again you convolute your verbal diarrhea to try and sound pseudo-intellectual but that's the Rudy de Haas who seems not to realise that his beloved Sun became an open source parasite and tried to acquire a community instead of build one.

Did you see how Red Hat's recent quarterly results ROCKED!?, making good profits in the recession and we all saw how Sun's results SUCKED!:-P
0 Votes
+ -
Per Tannenbaum:
bjbrock 26th Sep 2009
"The average user does not care about even more features or squeezing the last drop of performance out of the hardware, but cares a lot about having the computer work flawlessly 100% of the time and never crashing."

I'm not sure this applies. While no one likes crashes they have become quite rare. I'm not sure when one of my machines crashed last. Especially from a driver. Power supplies fail and hard drives fail but driver architecture is such that failures are increasingly rare. And the part about features and performance could not be further from the truth.

I don't know whether microkernels and interrupt driven architecture are mutually exclusive but the interrupt driven architecture is much more efficient and provides better performance than the alternatives such as polling.

Perhaps some older hardware could be removed from the kernel. Or better yet, the microkernel be used with interrupts in an effort to decrease bloat.

Is the interrupt driven architect and microkernel mutually exclusive?
0 Votes
+ -
No. Yes. ok: sort of
murph_z 26th Sep 2009
A microkernel can be interupt driven - no problem except that the performance gains from tying closely to hw interupts are then given up to kernel messaging, so its a lose lose.

The issue in re Linux bloat today is a consequence of over adaptation to x86 circa 1989 (or, actually, 1978). For the 80386 tying a furball to the hardware made technical (performance) sense - and, commerically, MS business practices guaranteed a supply of "obsolete" x86 hardware so the decision to do this made both technical and business sense. Now, however, they're reaching (over-reaching?) the limits of this strategy - and that's the problem.
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Linux as Wintel parasite
KimTjik 27th Sep 2009
To see flaws in the x86 isn't a revelation and it certainly hasn't anything particular to do with Linux. When possible and necessary the kernel can be ported and streamlined for whatever CPU design in question. What's the problem? Is it really such an issue that the vanilla kernel is bloated but that you can slim it down to be extremely fast? I'm sure we would discuss other issues if another kernel design would have been chosen.

Linux isn't a company and a corporations interest depends on what implementation is profitable. No leadership? Of course there is otherwise Linux would succeed in so many areas as it does. It might not however be as prominent in the business desktop as you wish. Once again: why this obsession about a desktop when it's very doubtable that our current perception of a desktop is efficient and smart? That's actually I understand Bob Sutter. And after all quality hasn't formed the market and users are to used to awkward computing that they wouldn't anyway appreciate something better that easily. Some does but far from all. There have been many inventions over time, in different fields, superior to generally used technology, but without success. Something else is forming markets, isn't that true?
0 Votes
+ -
Agreed
murph_z 27th Sep 2009
But entirely off topic.
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Linux as Wintel parasite
ARyKaXaN Updated - 27th Sep 2009
so, do you mean, that MS will lead the desktop market endlessly?

well, i agree that MS HAS the desktop market rigth into his pockets, why? 'cause ms has "learn" from his past errors (finally improving) and as murph says, users don't care a damn 'bout which OS are running behind their screens (apps), and this makes the next big challenge for all the desktop players: interoperatibilty.

if cloud computing has teach us something, that would be interoperabilty, truly client-side-OS-independency, as jason perlow has already pointed out (http://blogs.zdnet.com/perlow/?p=11167)

so, in this tendence, users, will adapt and work in browsers, not desktops, and even if that's so many ligth years away from now, take MS office to the mac, and you will have a "happy" user, take office to the linux and you still have a happy user, (or wichever app you would like to point about).

BWT I'm - by no way-, MS fanboy.

so, there is really some point is discussing 2% performance drops, when the average users, had a double, triple or quad core desktops? when the "cloudadmins" will be keeping their processing power up to date?. the average user just wants to sit, use and experience a 0 software downtime (even if ther are doing stupid or nonsese use of their pc, sorry i mean, desktop), it is we, the geek-oriented sysadmins,netadmins or wichever admin u like, are the ones who care for this kind of issues, not the average users.

want some more? let's take the finalcial side of the equation, if i can stop paying 5000 windows licences every time a new version of the OS has rolled out, and remain faithfully paying overpriced autodesk licences (let's say autocad 20xx), in a mac or in a linux desktop, damn! that will be make my entire director board really happy, and even get some extra money to more infraestructure,

So, sorry murphy for the off topic chatter, the same idea applies to the x86 interrupts or the minix type kernel, truth is if as long as ANY kernel let me keep running my apache webserver (for example), i don't really care wich type of kernel is liying below, even if that kernel is win32. (and by god i dislike MS so damn much).

ps. srry 4 the bad english..
0 Votes
+ -
A matter of perspective
murph_z 27th Sep 2009
I agree with most of what you say here, but it's a matter of perspective.

When we're discussing what users want, we have to understand that they don't care how we deliver, only that we deliver.

In this instance, however, I'm talking about how we deliver and in a technical, not a user service, context - and in that context 12% performance loses (and the register's problems with aritmetic) matter.
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Linux as Wintel parasite
ARyKaXaN Updated - 27th Sep 2009
s
0 Votes
+ -
Any supporters left?
tonymcs@... Updated - 27th Sep 2009
So who's left in Rudy's corner? Certainly not the Windows users who are just too stupid or liberal (probably redundant in Rudy's case). I believe that Mac users are also rife with the kind of lefties Rudy despises.

Now he's picking on the less than 1% of users who dare to use an open source OS. The less than 1% says it all really, no need to rub it in. As a solid, but simple OS it has come into wide use for embedded devices, simple web servers and even supercomputers. However, when it comes to acting as a global desktop, it lacks the research, development and quality systems of the proprietary model provided by MS and to a much lesser extent Apple. Open source software can make bad to adequate copies of existing proprietary software and occasionally act as a seed for proprietary companies (Sun OS anyone?), but it's generally going to be trailing edge. This isn't really a problem if you realise that Linux may be perfect for specific applications or as a safety net, but is not a global contender.

So what's left? The holy BSD apparently. I'm occasionally nostalgic for the 1960s and 70s too, but you're proposing Unix as the perfect OS?

Well at least finally you're back on topic wink
0 Votes
+ -
"Simple web servers"? So Google, which has actually gained marketshare since Bing has debuted, uses simple web servers?

For web servers on the Internet, according to Netcraft as of September, Apache has over 46% marketshare, compared to Microsoft's less than 22%.

In supercomputers, Linux has not "come into wide use for...supercomputers", it's the defacto gold standard: 88.6% for Linux as of June 2009 according to Top500.org, versus 1.00% for your god, Microsoft.

I'm surprised Rudy didn't call your contention that Sun OS was "seeded" by open source software. Those of us who know history (without Microsoft's influence) know that Sun's original Unix software was based on the portable Version 7 Unix, not BSD. They got their version from Unisoft back in '82. Freely distributable BSD as we now know it didn't come about until 1991, with the release of 4.3BSD and Networking Release 2. Sun was a powerhouse by that time, not a seedling.
0 Votes
+ -
Yawn
tonymcs@... 4th Oct 2009
Glad to see Rudy has one defender, pity about the facts though. You seem to confuse big with complex. Google cannot be accused of having complex websites and if they ever escape from the 90s, I'm sure it will be wonderful.

Supercomputers also do not provide a complex environment for users - they are for power not for sophistication. Having a simple OS increases the raw power.

Please go and change the Wiki page then as they also seem to be under the mistaken impression that Sun was built on BSD.

Where do I get my information? From working in IT for 40 years and actually using software from its infancy. It's hard to be so impressed with Apple when you saw the Xerox interface they copied or tried to use their Apple Lisa when it came out.

But keep reading Rudy's history, you obviously like fiction a lot wink
0 Votes
+ -
11 processor architectures
bswiss 27th Sep 2009
My understanding is that Linux runs on 11 (or more) processor architectures, not just x86.

How does that affect your argument?
0 Votes
+ -
Appears, none at all
Patanjali 27th Sep 2009
Because, the original target was x86, a widespread architecture made plentiful and cheap by IBM/MS and clonemakers. The other OSs are later additions.
0 Votes
+ -
Exactly (NT)
murph_z 28th Sep 2009
happy
0 Votes
+ -
11 processor architectures
wonkytechno 28th Sep 2009
...and 10 of those have virtually zero market volume. x86 is the only test of an OS of niche vs. mass.
0 Votes
+ -
It doesn't
murph_z 28th Sep 2009
The ports are horribly inefficient.
0 Votes
+ -
Really? How do you know that?
DevGuy_z 28th Sep 2009
There seems to be quite successfull implementations of linux in embedded systems.

How do you know that they are inefficient? It is very hard to do an apples to apples comparison to verify your claim that Linux doesn't work well on ARM for example.

The sheer proliferation of embedded linux seems to indicate that whatever it might lack in efficiency it is certainly good enough.

I think the Linux being tied to x86 thing is overblown.
0 Votes
+ -
EEMBC.org
murph_z Updated - 28th Sep 2009
A pain to deal with, but they do have good data on relative performance for devices with similar hw and competing embedded kernels.

Not that they go out of their way to tell you, of course -check the compilers! happy
0 Votes
+ -
I didn't see any worthwhile information comparing OS performance on similar HW. Can you provide a direct link?
0 Votes
+ -
An astonishing claim!
George Mitchell 28th Sep 2009
Some of the fastest supercomputers in the world, including the fastest, set their records running Linux as the OS. These ARE NOT wintel architecture systems. And they are "horribly inefficient"? Paul, you are starting with a religious belief about operating systems and that is what is driving your conclusions and they don't make a lot of sense as a result. I, like you, am an old Unix guy from the DEC1170 days, and I have my own beefs with Linux, but I really believe that some of your theories are a bit off the wall.

Microsoft almost singlehandedly made the PC platform the generic standard. I don't think that IBM, the other major player in x86 development, intended it to be that way. So now EVEN APPLE has moved to x86 and Sun was in the process of moving in that direction when they went under. It has nothing to do with being a "parasite". It has to do with the fact that the embedded standard IS x86 and if you want to play, that is where the sandbox is. It is THE free and open hardware standard. Microsoft engineered it to squeeze out IBM, now they are indignant to see the rise of a potential free and open software standard. You can shed all the tears over this you like, and you deserve the right to shed a few since your beloved Unix is getting shattered in the process, but please don't try to recast it as something it is not. - George
0 Votes
+ -
I think the slow linux port stuff is old information. It used to be that the ports were not so hot but I think that is old and no longer true. GCC and the kernel updates have made it much easier to port linux and get acceptable performance on non-x86 hardware. With some fine-tuning you can even get great performance.
In the early days I think the ports were inefficient. But since porting has been added to the kernel and with improvements to GCC, I'm sure that Linux has come a long way on other platforms. Certainly it is being distributed on other platforms which I don't think vendors would do if it were "horrible". And by "vendors" I mean both embedded and server vendors (HP, IBM) and on non-x86 hardware.

So doesn't Linux development -- especially in the kernel itself -- place a high value on efficiency, and also place a heavy emphasis on modularity, and (at least from what I've gathered as a non-developer) on most appropriately separating out specifics (eg, hardware details) into its own drivers and modules, and on abstracting more general code into efficient routines and services (eg. scheduling, memory management, etc)?

I can see that in early days (early-mid 90's), getting the code to run at all on other platforms might have produced some inefficient implementations, but conversely I would also figure that these exercises would have greatly helped drive the effort to effectively separate out and abstract the core code, from the middle layers from the hardware specific code, and optimize it in as flexible and rigorous a fashion as possible.
0 Votes
+ -
Yes and no.
DevGuy_z 29th Sep 2009
Modularity doesn't _necessarily_ help the hardware interface. And when you abstract the hardware you basically make things less efficient. So the more direct things are generally the faster. So you might leave out the Hardware Abstraction Layer and simply #ifdef the code and #define a ton of macros and optimize the compiler and do a direct port.

The downside is that it is more work and the efficiency will then depend on the quality of the port and the compiler.

But either way the architect chooses to go, should not result in horrible performance, unless they really do a bad bad job. I don't think that's the case with Linux.
0 Votes
+ -
Source?
DNSB 28th Sep 2009
Do you have a source for the comment or did you just feel like typing tripe? If you have a source which has done comparisons of Linux on various architectures, feel free to post the link.

Otherwise, I'll go with my observations which is that zLinux (Linux on IBM's z series) at the very least is not a "horribly inefficient" port. Hard to see how any "horribly inefficient" port could run as many virtual sessions as z/VM is able to handle without bogging the whole system down to unusability.
0 Votes
+ -
Welcome to THE MOST expensive solution
Roger Ramjet 29th Sep 2009
zLinux has the highest price to performance ratio - and Murph has already debunked the claims about how many VMs it can run. Today's mainframes are nothing more than Power-series servers with "special" processors (just Power with added mainframe OPcodes).
0 Votes
+ -
Linux on Mainframes
c0t0d0s0 Updated - 29th Sep 2009
Sorry ... even when you take IBMs own marketing into consideration,
zLinux is good at consolidating idle and almost idling systems. Look at
this: They claimed that they could put 1500 Systems on a single
mainframe, but at the end it just were 125 with reasonable load .... I
wrote about that at http://www.c0t0d0s0.org/archives/4506-a.html
0 Votes
+ -
Worse than it seems
murph_z 29th Sep 2009
see also:

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Murphy/?p=1330

And note that each ghost merely aspires to PIII performance.
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Linux as Wintel parasite
Mr Piston 28th Sep 2009
What...?Linux As Wintel parasite....?
That is best news or bad news....?
http://www.france-radio.co.tv/
http://www.france-radio.co.tv/
http://www.france-radio.co.tv/
0 Votes
+ -
Wintel as a Linux parasite
Cheballestosabato 28th Sep 2009
I would like to remember that GNU/Linux and *BSD stuff runs on 1% of desktop computers and something more devices which are not x86.
If we add up all embedded, appliances, networking gears the numbers should change; this also means that many more people (not often lovers of the OOS picture) are eviscerating the technology [linux and other *nix derivates), adapting it to non-desktop architectures and eventually - hopefully - ironing out and delivering to the community of "users".
In such a way the technology itself improves, even if the research is carried on a Gumstick.
So, thanks to the GNU/Linux folks who let me run Splack on Sparc64, thanks to the OpenBSD folks who let me show off with a SGI's O2, thanks to all those in the industry whose work gets into my next NAS, firewall, thin-client... and into my desktop - whichever - in the following weeks/months/years.
No?
0 Votes
+ -
BSD's desktop market share
murph_z 28th Sep 2009
is around 10%.

Otherwise, yes.
0 Votes
+ -
10% of *what*?
wolf_z 28th Sep 2009
There's no way you can flatly say BSD has a 10% marketshare of desktops in general. Even Apple's world wide share is what, 3-4%?

Do you mean 10% of the *nix desktop marketshare? That I might believe.
0 Votes
+ -
Mac OS-X is based on BSD so he can include it. 10% sounds a little high but not too far off.
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Linux as Wintel parasite
mad_scientist42 28th Sep 2009
Virtually Zero Market Volume? Riiight.

Look at your mobile phone. Look at it long and hard. The SoC in that device happens to have an ARM CPU in it Not MIPS. Not Power. Not Sparc. Not even remotely x86 (It burns up too much juice, even as an Atom to be used there...).

Take a look at the Palm Pre.
Take a look at the HTC G1, Touch, or Hero.
Take a look at the Nokia N9XX series.

Not a single one of those use x86. They use an ARM CPU that's really close per clock to what Atom's currently doing performance-wise. And eating quite a bit less juice doing it.

Not a single one of these devices use Windows Mobile, Symbian, or MacOS Mobile (iPhone's OS...).

You can frame it however you like- but in the end, when the rubber meets the pavement, it's nothing like how you're categorizing things.
0 Votes
+ -
oh boy
murph_z 28th Sep 2009
1) ARM is a PPC licensee

2) the reason the iPhone is an actual computer being used as a phone where the others are phones pretending to some computer functions is largely that their OSes are stripped.
0 Votes
+ -
Odd
DNSB 28th Sep 2009
I seem to show two separate compile options for Linux kernels. One for ARM, the other for PPC.

By your logic, since Intel is/was an ARM licensee, it's processors should be binary compatible with ARM processors.

Is it possible that you are confusing ARM processors used in PPC devices (PocketPC) with the IBM/Motorola PowerPC processor architecture?

0 Votes
+ -
Regarding Atom
DevGuy_z 28th Sep 2009
While I would agree Atom isn't there yet. The Montecello release is supposed to drop power requirements about 50x and is expected to run on cell phones. The performance will be good.
0 Votes
+ -
The Atom will ALWAYS lose to ARM
Roger Ramjet 29th Sep 2009
It's a question of how many circuits there are. ARM has a simpler architecture - so it doesn't need as much silicon to do the same thing . . .
0 Votes
+ -
Disagree.
DevGuy_z 29th Sep 2009
Intel's manufacturing prowess can increasingly create more powerful chips and reduce the drain. Already they are chipping away. They are dramatically increasing performance while reducing power. There are sub-watt Atoms already.

Your phrase " so it doesn't need as much silicon to do the same thing" means that because it is less complex it needs more cycles to accomplish the same task.

A shovel is simpler than a trackhoe and if you can drive it fast enough you could theoretically keep up but as the trackhoe improves it becomes harder for a simple shovel to do the job.

Atom is a very new chip and already it is making great strides. Intel is no longer playing around in the Mobile space. They are focusing on it and there roadmap indicates to me that Atom will overtake ARM.
0 Votes
+ -
Violating physics
Roger Ramjet 29th Sep 2009
The Atom is x86 based - and thus has the entire CISC opcode legacy. If you need space on silicon for each opcode (you do) then you use more space with x86. This was the reasoning behind RISC chips in the first place (and the justification of the EPIC Itanium chip).

The ARM chips do not have this legacy. They were designed to be RISC-like. The StrongARM chip that went into the last Newton (and Ellison's network computer) didn't have a floating point unit.

You can start out with a Porsche or you can start with a Ford Crown Vic and heavily modify it. In the end, which one do you want?
0 Votes
+ -
The issue is performance and power.
DevGuy_z 1st Oct 2009
Intel is generally ahead in manufacturing technology. So their transistor can use less power then someone else and still clock faster and be smaller.

I never said anything about whether CISC or RISC used less silicon.

But you are assuming that fewer transistors mean faster. That isn't necessarily the case. it isn't even the case that fewer transistors (gates) means less power especially if the transistor technology is slower.

The fact of the matter is that CISC can do more complex things all at once while RISC does simpler things but just does it quicker.

So for less complex loads RISC has an advantage but as things get more complex CISC seems more advantageous. That is why the percentage of x86 based supercomputers keeps increasing vs power/cell/sparc. Also the performance per watt has steadily increased on CISC processors.

The justification of EPIC was to remove out-of-order execution intelligense out of the CPU and do it up front. Static optimization versus dynamic. True it simplified the circuit but not the instruction set.

BTW, all modern x86 processors have a RISC core with microcode. The x86 opcode set is an abstraction.

Intel has every intent of un-seating ARM.

In my industry we add gates to do acceleration of certain tasks so that software and the microcontroller don't have to. The result is that we have extreme energy efficiency in our product in comparison to utilizing just the CPU alone.
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Linux as Wintel parasite
mad_scientist42 28th Sep 2009
Heh.. Novell doesn't seem to agree with that sentiment...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtp5gNhBZgo (The Novell Brainshare spoof ad for Linux...)

And if it were less than 1% like you claim, why is Microsoft going through the contortions it is to "compete" (or is that lie, cheat, etc. considering the stuff they've pulled recently with Best Buy, Staples, etc...), hm?

Here's a hint: Watch the goings on and don't listen to the "Analysts". They use dubious metrics like units shipped (sold) and who hits websites they monitor. In either case, neither of these metrics are at all reliable for the purposes of measuring installed base.
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Linux as Wintel parasite
mad_scientist42 28th Sep 2009
Excuse me? PPC licensee?

ARM is it's own org and it designs the cores on everything out there. ARM is derived from the Archimedes/ACORN PC and ARM stands for Advanced RISC Machine. ARM's been there before PPC (Which stands for POWER Personal Computer, a derivative of the POWER4/5 Architecture, which was used in IBM's workstations and in their Mainframes...) was a twinkle in IBM, Motorola, and Apple's collective eyes. I should know, I grew up when this all happened (Heh... 25+ years of professional experience and an additonal 9 hobbiest will do that for you...)

You clearly know little about how this stuff actually started or exists today- you might wish to refrain from commenting on things you don't know anything about.
0 Votes
+ -
Chicken and the Egg arguments
No_Ax_to_Grind 28th Sep 2009
Honestly as I look around it seems all the players copy each other if they see something of value in it. All good for the consumer.
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Linux as Wintel parasite
civikminded Updated - 28th Sep 2009
Truth be told I actually agree with you on some of this stuff. Linux does tend to 'lead by following.' There doesn't tend to be a whole lot of actual innovation in Linux. I think I've said this before on this very blog. Innovators rarely tend to be market winners. Look at NExT, Be Corp, even Apple. Now contrast that with a company like Dell.

The link you posted about Blackmesh was quite sad as this technology has been around for probably literally decades in Solaris Jumpstart and AIX NIM. This article was particularly timely as I just got the laugh of the century where a Linux admin was describing to me why it was better than commercial UNIXes and used Linux's LVM as an example.

The one point I can't really understand however is calling it a 'parasite' for using the same platform as Windows. In fact you call it a 'Wintel' parasite. Wouldn't this also be true of OpenSolais? BSD? all the OS's you mention as 'good'? The x86 platform has been used by a multitude of OS's over the years, from MS-DOS to OS2 to BeOS to Windows. 'Wintel' doesn't 'own' X86 architecture. It seems a little disingenuous to pick on Linux just because it is the most popular alternative.
0 Votes
+ -
A parasite
murph_z 28th Sep 2009
Lives off its host.

Solaris and the BSDs would exist if the Wintel duopoly didn't - or if MS didn't create cheap x86 hw by obsoleting its own stuff every couple of years- but I don't think Linux would.

This is a very narrow point and a lot of people seem to want to draw broad conclusions - but think of it this way: Torvalds set out to capitalize on wintel's tendency to leave a stream of cheap hardware in its wake and more power to him for doing it - but it's self limiting because if wintel behavior changed and that hw stream went away, so would the basic rationale for, and structure of, Linux..
0 Votes
+ -
Technology moves on.
DevGuy_z 28th Sep 2009
So your cheap hardware argument doesn't fly. You have a conundrum. By your reasoning either:

1) The reason hw technology moves so fast is because of wintel. I don't think so.
2) HW technology moves fast regardless of Wintel and you would still have a stream of cheap hardware because people would move to new hardware simply due to the fact that it is faster and better.
3) Or somehow magically a particular OS can make a slow machine act faster. That is largely a fallacy.

While an OS can influence hardware performance to some degree you can't make a computer calculate faster simply by changing the OS. So faster hardware means faster calculations and for sometime now software has been getting increasingly complex and needing the extra horsepower. Compression, encryption, video, graphics are all pushing the envelope.

While linux does need lower resources as an OS versus windows, that doesn't mean that the applications do to a significant extent. I've seen benchmarks comparing similar applications running on Linux and Windows with both systems configured the same (memory, disk, cpu) and there wasn't that much difference. You could probably starve the linux system a little more than with windows but the difference is insufficient to explain the "stream of cheap hardware"
0 Votes
+ -
Ever elastic demand
c0t0d0s0 28th Sep 2009
The reason for for the ever increasing power in x86 is the ever elastic
demand for computer power in gaming. You could put any amounts of
cycles into the gaming industry and they ask for more. Everyone else
is just a passenger. Oh, and it's that horse race between Intel and
AMD.

An operating system can make an application not faster than the CPU,
but slower. Any really significant product doesn't exist on its self. It
uses system calls. It uses the virtual memory interface. An operating
system can make a difference here. For example when the vm layer is
fscking fast for single thread performance but does't really scale, or is
a tad slower but scales to huge amount of memory.
0 Votes
+ -
About other CPU ports...
Mitch 74 17th Nov 2009
As far as I know, most embedded Linux-based OSes are still using kernel 2.4 (which is still somewhat supported and maintained) for size reasons (a compiled 2.4 kernel can weigh half a MB while a corresponding 2.6 kernel will be twice the size), while 2.6 has gotten, if not more modular, at least more compartmentalized: of course the x86 port is still the one seeing the most work, but stuff like the scheduler and memory controller are now mostly platform-agnostic. In fact, on all release notes I've read for previous releases, most performance degradations were caused by:

- regressions, that are ultimately resolved (not all are, yet)

- code modularization: code that was specific to a platform is made into a module that must account for all platforms; in most cases, platform-specific speed hacks have to be removed.

Stop me if I'm wrong, but that was the case with the memory manager (SLAB now less used in favour of SLUB): SLUB is slower than SLAB, because (citing 2.6.31's doc): To some degree SLUB's performance is limited by the need to take the list_lock once in a while to deal with partial slabs. SLAB, however, can lead to heavy memory consumption due to its operational overhead on multicore systems (thus the creation of SLUB)

The same with the scheduler: CFS (Completely Fair Scheduler) was made to allow more reactive multitasking in a user-oriented context: its main interest (and I can personally attest to it) is that it allows user input and system reactivity to remain rather good even when the CPU is heavily taxed (something the previous scheduler, which merely gave CPU time to tasks with highest priority, didn't allow).

In short, while the Linux kernel does indeed get slower for heavy, server-oriented tasks, it gets better (a whole lot at that) at interactive use. Performance is rather subjective in that case.

Now, about ARM: according to Debian developers, it's not because Linux doesn't support ARM that it's slow; it's more because the original GNU C library itself doesn't support ARM well - thus, Debian Sid now uses eglibc (a heavily patched for ARM support version of glibc), which does.

Join the conversation!

Formatting +
BB Codes - Note: HTML is not supported in forums
  • [b] Bold [/b]
  • [i] Italic [/i]
  • [u] Underline [/u]
  • [s] Strikethrough [/s]
  • [q] "Quote" [/q]
  • [ol][*] 1. Ordered List [/ol]
  • [ul][*] · Unordered List [/ul]
  • [pre] Preformat [/pre]
  • [quote] "Blockquote" [/quote]
ie8 fix

The best of ZDNet, delivered

ZDNet Newsletters

Get the best of ZDNet delivered straight to your inbox

Facebook Activity

White Papers, Webcasts, & Resources
ie8 fix