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Rocky dreams

By | September 19, 2009, 12:15am PDT

Summary: Everyone knows that Sun’s ultraSPARC RT is dead. Right? Wrong - the strategic reason for not releasing it disappeared with the Oracle deal.

Earlier this week I placed the last rock on the last wall to finish my summer landscaping project - well, except for shoveling more dirt next week. Two small walls, one along the sidewalk in the front and a little one along the back patio have embedded wire frames and concrete reinforcement but all the bigger stuff is pure drystack - and boy was I wrong thinking this was going to be easy! Oh well, live and learn right? - and, besides, I have a feeling it’ll eventually appear to have been both easy and rewarding relative to my next challenge: helping take the Alberta Wildrose party from nothing to electoral success and political power.

One of life’s little lessons here, of course, is that thinking or writing about doing something is a lot easier than actually doing it - and on that basis I want to share a hope about Sun’s “Rock” Ultrasparc RT processor.

A few months ago, when Sun’s senior people were getting their marching orders, Rock’s absence from the SPARC road map they got fired off the rumor that Rock is dead, but that’s never been formally confirmed by anyone from either Sun or Oracle.

Now obviously all the senior people involved are living in fear of litigation and keeping their mouths tightly shut accordingly, but the Oracle relationship changes the strategic picture on Rock to the point that it should be very much alive.

Rock is the first large scale processor to support three new technologies on release: transactional memory, hardware scout, and the second generation cool threads stuff. Since that’s big change, and big change tends to be viciously resisted in the market, Sun’s strategic problem with Rock was that the cost of getting it into production couldn’t be met without quick market success and they didn’t see a way to make that happen.

Oracle offers a solution to this: a way to skip the three to five years it usually takes to get new ideas accepted; and because that significantly changes the strategic picture I think there’s reason to hope that the SPARC/Solaris solution they’re planning to show on October 14th at their Openworld conference is based on Rock - not Niagara.

What Oracle can do to make Rock an instant success is simple: convert their own major products to the technology, and sell the combination on an appliance+ basis - with the plus being that these machines can also run any existing SPARC/Solaris binaries, albeit more slowly than they should. As a result customers can combine faster with cheaper at the major applications level while transitioning their IT teams to work with the new technologies - technologies the wintel mass market will be another five to eight years in getting around to copying.

The Oracle/Sun announcement that they plan to beat IBM’s p595/DB2 TPC/C record at OpenWorld lends, I think, credence to this idea because it’s the right benchmark for Rock and the wrong one for almost anything else. Among the reasons for that the most important is simply that only 10% of the transactions defined under the TPC/C standard require SMP, but these constitute the bottleneck for the p595 - the independence of the other 90% is, of course, the reason Sun, which specializes in high end SMP, despises the TPC/C benchmark while IBM, which exploits customer commitment to paying for big machines so they can be partitioned into little ones by building them as tightly interconnected clusters of little four and eight way machines, loves it.

Since Rock doesn’t have this bottleneck and can exploit hardware transaction management on the severable queries, even a two way Rock processor with ZFS disk and a beta Oracle RDBMS with most of the lock management code stripped out, should be able to blow away IBM’s p595 result on this test - something that would otherwise take 8 to 12 T5440s in a rack with at least a half dozen storage servers.

So are they going to do this? I don’t know - but I’d give it perhaps three chances out of ten that they do, with another three going to the proposition that they want to but won’t get the software done in time - and the remaining four on the safer bet that you’ll see some T5440 gear running 800,000 to a million TPM each.

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Paul Murphy (a pseudonym) is an IT consultant specializing in Unix and related technologies.

Disclosure

Paul Murphy

I do not work for, or otherwise receive anything from, any of the companies I write about. I have some money in a number of funds that bet on the markets, including the technology market, but have no direct control over how these funds are administered or what investments are made. I use Sun and Apple technology both at home and at work.

Biography

Paul Murphy

Originally a Math/Physics graduate who couldn't cut it in his own field, Paul Murphy (a pseudonym) became an IT consultant specializing in Unix and related technologies after a stint working for a DARPA contractor programming in Fortran and APL. Since then he's worked in both systems management and consulting for a range of employers including KPMG, the government of Alberta, and his own firm. In those roles he's "been there and done that" for just about every aspect of systems management and operation.

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JesperFrimann 28th Sep 2009
1) So you would seriously call the four socket, 32 Core T5XXX series an advancement in SMP Design compared to the Good Old 72 socket 144 Core SUN Fire/Enterprise'es, like the 25K?
Sure it has a lot of threads, the T5XXX'es. I mean the type of multi threading that the Niagara based server uses, was used on POWER back in the RS64-IV days.

2) Well they aren't really evolving. Zombies might be a better word.

3) There is both an x86 version and a T5440 based version. It's the T5440 version that is a monster with regards to licenses.

4) Ok, on SUN's recent roadmap where are the Rock based servers ?


// Jesper
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Sounds reasonable
Roger Ramjet 19th Sep 2009
Rock development was so far along, I believe it was down to the fab yields for the go/no-go decision. But Sun has always prided itself on having production products ready when they show it off publicly. This always avoided the obvious "vaporware" negative publicity. So if Sun does what it has in the past, Rock must be in production NOW. I assume that Fujitsu is doing the fab . . .

As for creating another right-wing party in the west - I guess you weren't paying attention to the last 20 years. The Reform Party was successful locally - but split the Conservative vote nationally (allowing the Liberals to stay in Ottawa for a very long time). The danger of 3rd parties' vote splitting is recent and evident.
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Forced to guess, I'd assume fab via Taiwan, not Fujitsu - but I don't know if they'd even need to be in production.

The TPC/C standard requires a commitment to market less than 6 months after the benchmark result is submitted. That's enough time to debug the software, get more apps up, and get the final HW design into production - so they could run the demo on the lab fab stuff if they had to.

----

Wildrose gets called a right wing old guy party by the libleft press but it's a poor characterization aimed at discrediting us by misleading the public. In reality the party is fiscally conservative and socially libertarian.

That does make us right wing, but not in the sense used in the press.

The reality is that people on the political left tend to be those who beleive they have a right to tell others what to do - and to enforce that via the tax and judicial systems.

People on the right don't believe they're smarter than everyone else and because they generally don't want to tell anyone what to do they tend to be in favor of less government and fewer constraints on individual behavior - i.e. fiscally conservative and socially liberatarian.

Remember in today's world it's the left that's truely facist in outlook and behavior - witness Mr. Obama et al's total disregard for law and democracy.
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Such libertarianism = ...
Patanjali 19th Sep 2009
Freedom for companies to economically disenfranchise people.

I find these euphamisms designed to appeal to our sense of fair play are just a cover for a few selfish people using their priveledged positions to control and manipulate all those around them.

I don't think history is on the side of a hands off approach by government being very beneficial to the majority of its citizens.

Conversely, an excessive hand-on approach has similarly had an adverse affect.

There is a Middle Path, and I think we are mostly trying to find out what it is, but when those with self-centred agendas are allowed too much say, we vere off course.

Any democratic government is socialist by definition - responsible for the welfare of its citizens. The questions we all debate is one of extent!
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Wildrose has the "right" idea
Roger Ramjet 21st Sep 2009
Fiscally conservative is the right (correct) way to go. True Libertarians believe that the government really shouldn't exist . . .

People on the right AREN'T smarter than anyone else (quite the opposite happy Rightists don't tell people what to do - they tell them what NOT to do!

Your characterization of the US president is not something that I agree with. Obama wants to change the system - Rightists cannot change. We see what happens.
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So far right wing he goes through the wall
tonymcs@... 21st Sep 2009
Yep that's you Rudy. A conservative who by definition has no new ideas and tries to combat modern problems with ideology instead of rational solutions.

Has it occurred to you, that besides the 3 or 4 other conservative that actually read this blog, no-one knows or cares what the hell you are talking about.

"People on the right don't believe they're smarter than everyone else and because they generally don't want to tell anyone what to do they tend to be in favor of less government and fewer constraints on individual behavior"

So what was Dick Cheney - a Commie? So the Patriot Act and 2 current wars weren't the result of people telling us what to do? You should really get out of the museum occasionally.

Sun is dead and the Rock went into movies.

I've said it before - time to go Rudy, before even the few left who read your blog start laughing.

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RE: Rocky dreams
JesperFrimann 25th Sep 2009
Ok, Murph
Stop acting like are 5 years old and Rock is your pet dead goldfish and SUN is your mother telling you that Rock is just sleeping.

It's dead. Most likely cause it didn't work/perform like intended. Inovative Yes.. but..

"the reason Sun, which specializes in high end SMP, despises the TPC/C benchmark "
Eh.. SUN haven't made a new Highend SMP's since they made the Fire 15K and the revamped version the e25K.
And the if you compare the e25K with the p595 from the same period, then the p595 has more than five time the sustained memory bandwidth of the e25K per core.
Yes, SUN was leading in the 90ties, but that is a long time ago, and they have more or less exited that marked.

And btw. if you look at the recent SUN hardware roadmap, then there are no advances on the M series machines the next 3 years. And servers are not fujitsu's main focus anymore. So....

And as for the benchmark on the new Niagara based Exadata, try to figure out what you will pay in licenses fee's to Oracle.

12 Machines x 4 Chips x 8 cores x 0,75=288 Oracle licenses.

RAC+Partitioning+Enterprice edition=82.000USD
+ 3 years of support.

Now that is a whopping 39 Million Dollars, just in licenses.

Oracle is going to use Niagara to milk it's customers of money.

// Jesper
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1) The CMT technologies advance SMP so your comments about the Sunfires being the last of a vanishing breed are correct but wrong. Yes that tech is dead, but it's because Sun has advanced, not retreated.

2) I've said all along that the APL agreement was a crutch to out source part of the transition to cmt/smp. I don't think the M's are dead, but I don't expect that line to continue too long either.

3) Exadata is, I think, aimed mainly at the x86 market - there's no licensing difference between it and the previous HP product.

4) So is rock dead? It worked well in the lab but the cost of getting it out was seen as prohibitive last year. (remember: Sun has to get it out worldwide, provision for support, and then try to make the money back selling it - very hard given how innovative it is.)

Oracle appliance apps can, however, make that issue go away so I'm speculating that Sun/oracle will respond by doing the obvious.
0 Votes
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Try again
JesperFrimann 28th Sep 2009
1) So you would seriously call the four socket, 32 Core T5XXX series an advancement in SMP Design compared to the Good Old 72 socket 144 Core SUN Fire/Enterprise'es, like the 25K?
Sure it has a lot of threads, the T5XXX'es. I mean the type of multi threading that the Niagara based server uses, was used on POWER back in the RS64-IV days.

2) Well they aren't really evolving. Zombies might be a better word.

3) There is both an x86 version and a T5440 based version. It's the T5440 version that is a monster with regards to licenses.

4) Ok, on SUN's recent roadmap where are the Rock based servers ?


// Jesper

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