ie8 fix

Linux and Open Source

Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols & Paula Rooney

Has FOSS lost the battle against patents

By | October 19, 2010, 8:51am PDT

Summary: Software patents are a fact of life. Their abolition isn’t achievable, writes the author of the FOSSPatents blog.

“Software patents are a fact of life. Their abolition isn’t achievable.”

The author of these words is not Larry Ellison, not Steve Jobs. It’s Florian Mueller (right), and he wrote it on his FOSSPatents blog last week, shortly after I met with him in Munich.

Mueller is a passionate, knowledgeable, and fast-talking advocate, best known here for fighting the Sun-Oracle merger over the issue of mySQL. “FOSS must find ways to deal with patents, and in fact, it already has,” he adds.

Curiously, when we met for dinner near Munich’s Marienplatz, we were carrying the same phone, a Samsung Galaxy Si9000. (I took the picture at right with mine. Not bad for being in a dark alley.)

NOTE: Florian writes the photo was taken in the restaurant, not outside. My apologies. My memory was working from the section of the photo I used, not the whole photo.

He offers this as an example of his point. Samsung pays royalties for the Intellectual Property (IP) rights on its phones, including its Androids.

This isn’t just true for Linux, but for Java as well, he writes. Oracle provides Java under the GPL, but its patent grant is among the most restrictive in the industry.

The context he was writing in is important.

As David Meyer of ZDNet UK writes, the Free Software Foundation Europe and the Business Software Association are engaged in a pitched battle over open standards, as a new European Interoperability Framework (EIF) is developed. Mueller’s point was that fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory (FRAND) patent licenses offer a way out, a way for business to go forward.

Mueller says the reason the GPLv2 remains the standard open source contract is because of the GPLv3’s stand against software patents. He goes back to the new license’s birth, which came alongside the Microsoft-Novell agreement acknowledging Microsoft rights over Linux, and he quotes Richard Stallman on how the GPLv3 would forbid such deals.

“GPLv3 ultimately became very restrictive, but as a result, it’s a big-time failure. No major open source project (such as Linux) has embraced it.” Whatever your opinion it’s hard to argue with his facts.

In terms of the EIF, which is the point at issue, Mueller wants a compromise. “I’m pro-FOSS and against the patentability of software, but I also know that FRAND is a good concept in principle,” he writes today.

So if the war over patents is over and patents won, what now for open source?

Kick off your day with ZDNet's daily e-mail newsletter. It's the freshest tech news and opinion, served hot. Get it.

Topics

Dana Blankenhorn has been a business journalist for 30 years, a tech freelancer since 1983.

Disclosure

Dana Blankenhorn

Dana Blankenhorn has been a journalist, writer and part-time futurist for over 30 years.

At the present moment I run only a personal blog in addition to my ZDNet open source blog.

DanaBlankenhorn.Com has the subtitle The War Against Oil. In the past I have used it to write about political history, e-commerce, personal matters, some ideas related to open source, and The World of Always On, which is the idea of using sensors, motes and RFID to turn WiFi links into platforms for applications which live in the air.

My IRA account at Schwab holds a few tech shares, most notably some Intel and Applied Materials, but there are no open source companies in it. I don’t even own any CBS stock.

Biography

Dana Blankenhorn

Dana Blankenhorn has been a business journalist for nearly 25 years and has covered the online world professionally since 1985. He founded the Interactive Age Daily for CMP Media, and has written for the Chicago Tribune, Advertising Age's "NetMarketing" supplement, and dozens of other publications over the years.

32
Comments

Join the conversation!

Just In

RE: Has FOSS lost the battle against patents
Aussie_Troll 26th Oct 2010
I dont think its a 'battle against patents'. It seems its far more a

"Battle against innovation". If FOSS innovated, as opposed to copying the technology off others. Then patents would not be a problem. Patents would infact be an asset.

I guess 'war on patents' sounds more dramatic, and honest than 'war on being able to use other people idea, for your own gain without any reward to the inventors of that technology'.

After all, what is the bottom line, you get companies developing technologies, that become popular. And FOSS sees that as popular and copies it. Then wonders why they get in trouble.

Its the FOSS idealogy, from the start to copy whatever it saw as being of value. (to FOSS). It started with a clone of UNIX, and a clone of UNIX CC the C compiler, and progressed to just about everything anyone else has done.

But almost nothing that is original, or innovative.

So its not a 'battle against patents' its a battle against the ability to innovate products that are comercailly viable.

So if FOSS won the patent war, then what would that achieve ? It would allow FOSS to continue to follow the market, always waiting for the market to sort itself out, then biggy back on its success.

FOSS would never have to develop any of its own idea's and technologies, there would be no need, they just won the patent battle, so they won the right to steal anyone elses idea's and developments and use it to damage the very company who paid people to develop that technology.

So lets hope FOSS grows up, and stops being a follower and becomes a leader. And gives up on any strawman patent issues.

Everyone else plays by the rules, why not FOSS ??
0 Votes
+ -
Foss will win the war
Linux Geek 19th Oct 2010
because it will bankrupt M$, Apple and other patent goons.
The software insurgency always wins because the dinosaurs can not adapt to the new threats regardless of their pile of ca$h.
0 Votes
+ -
Come from people buying their products. In other words, pile of cash is the scoreboard in the game.
0 Votes
+ -
Were it not pile of cash ...
LBiege 19th Oct 2010
from Shuttleworth providing life support to a Detroit like Ubuntun, we wouldn't even heard about it. But rest assured not even Shuttleworth's money is enough to cover that perennial blackhole.
0 Votes
+ -
Is that why Linux has 1%
Michael Alan Goff 19th Oct 2010
And Microsoft has 90%+?

FOSS has lost, get over it.
0 Votes
+ -
@Linux Geek

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

How many years has your wishful thinking sustained you?
1 Vote
+ -
Borderline
Multiplatt 19th Oct 2010
What the... Muller is a lobbyist! This guy is paid to present a BSA pro-patent position (FRAND), paid to bully the EIFv2 defenders, the FSF, community members like Karsten Gerloff, Richard Stallman and Eben Moglen. His compromise looks exactly the same like what patent lobbyists do not get from the E.U. He has no community, no credibility and does not represent anyone except his astroturfs. U.S. software corporations want the E.U. to ignore their self-interests. In Muller's world interoperability would stay all the same and Microsoft would milk the European public sector another 10 years, cash in on software patents and lock-in, stifle interoperability...
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Has FOSS lost the battle against patents
JeremyAllison 19th Oct 2010
Indeed. Please don't take anything Florian Mueller says as being on behalf of the Free Software/Open Source community. He is now a pro-software patent lobbyist, whatever he once was.

His modus operandi is to pretend to be a FLOSS supporter, asking for "compromise" with patent holders. His "compromise" is complete capitulation of course. He habitually trolls FLOSS web sites asking for his "compromise", and is the sort of person who believes that by writing more posts than his opponents he can win the argument. All good signs of someone who is paid to do such things, as most FLOSS coders have more important things to be doing (writing more Free Software happy.

Please don't give this person any more publicity, he's quite capable of paying for it himself from the funds he gets from his "clients".

Jeremy Allison,
Samba Team.
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Has FOSS lost the battle against patents
DanaBlankenhorn 19th Oct 2010
@JeremyAllison You are making a serious charge, but if you have proof of it then I would like to see it.

All this relates, of course, to my previous piece on open source hurting its own cause by having its advocates throwing charges of "corporate tool" about.
0 Votes
+ -
of their own that they do not wish to share, Mr. Allison?

And those patents are there for a reason, are they not?
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Has FOSS lost the battle against patents
FlorianMueller 19th Oct 2010
@Multiplatt I won't respond to baseless rants, but concerning interoperability and lock-in, FRAND can provide interoperability and thus prevent a lock-in.
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Has FOSS lost the battle against patents
FlorianMueller 19th Oct 2010
@JeremyAllison In addition to "Samba Team", you should have mentioned you work for Google, which is a pro-software-patent company. Concerning "capitulation", I want to point out that my position is this: the open standards camp should accept FOSS-compatible FRAND and that (at the same time) patent holders should define their FRAND terms in a FOSS-compatible way. That means to meet each other half way. It doesn't imply surrender. Has Google ever done anything to seriously get software patents abolished? The answer is No. That's the same as with Apple, Microsoft, IBM, etc. Admittedly, some of those have done more *for* software patents. The bottom line is that as long as industry unanimously supports them, constructive solutions must be found and extreme positions are strategically lost.
0 Votes
+ -
Samba Team actually fought for a FRAND license
FlorianMueller 19th Oct 2010
@JeremyAllison I almost forgot to mention that you, the Samba Team, actually fought for a FRAND license. You did so for years, alongside FSFE and others. You got it: the European Commission ruled, and the EU's Court of First Instance confirmed, that Microsoft had to grant a FRAND license to whatever IP would be needed for your purposes. You didn't get the EU to rule (because it wouldn't work under the law) that a royalty-free/restriction-free license was the only way. Just FRAND. Quite hypocritical of you to now criticize me for advocating FOSS-compatible FRAND...
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Has FOSS lost the battle against patents
JeremyAllison 19th Oct 2010
I will only reply once here, as I'm quite busy fixing bugs at the moment.

1). Yes, I work for Google. I respectfully disagree with you that Google is a pro-software patent company. As I often publish articles here on ZDnet with my company affiliation in the title, I presumed that readers here would know I was a Google employee. For that I apologize. I have always been clear about who pays my wages. Who are your funding clients by the way ? I've never seen you answer that question, and I've asked it many times.

Your attempt to paint me as a software patent supporter rings a little hollow based on my copious writings on this subject. I feel I have much more credibility than you on this matter, but as always, readers may judge for themselves.

2). The Samba Team fought hard for ROYALTY-FREE licensing. We didn't get it, but to say we fought for a FRAND license is disingenuous at best. We have always been clear that patented, royalty bearing licensing is completely incompatible with Free Software.

Now I'll leave the field to those who appear to have lots of paid time to use it happy.

Jeremy.
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Has FOSS lost the battle against patents
FlorianMueller 19th Oct 2010
@JeremyAllison Concerning 1) I analyzed Google's Bilski brief on my blog:
http://fosspatents.blogspot.com/2010/08/googles-bilski-brief-didnt-advocate.html
It supported Google-style (even if not Bilski-style) software patents.

The other question was addressed by me before on LWN some other time.

Finally, I never said you personally support software patents. I just point out that you are on the payroll of a company that supports those patents and therefore you can't blame those who believe we all have to make the best out of the situation we face.

On 2) you can't seriously believe that the legal system of any civilized country on this planet would give you a ROYALTY-FREE license as the outcome of an antitrust proceeding. That would be a downright expropriation, unconstitutional everywhere. You knew and there can be no doubt at all that your lawyers told you that the maximum a regulator can impose is FRAND. So if FRAND doesn't help FOSS, you should never have lodged a complaint. The Commission wasn't going to bend the law just to do your bidding.
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Has FOSS lost the battle against patents
DanaBlankenhorn 19th Oct 2010
@JeremyAllison I don't want to be rude here, just to understand. Since you are as you admit a Google employee, how are you less a corporate shill than you accuse others of being?

This, again, is the point I was making before, that all sides are hurting the cause by pointing fingers and making accusations of "corporate shill," such that cooperation within the movement becomes impossible.

Which may be what the corporate interests most want.
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Has FOSS lost the battle against patents
gnufreex Updated - 20th Oct 2010
@DanaBlankenhorn

Jeremy have always admitted who he works for. Also, Jeremy quit Novell after they sold out to Microsoft, so he have put money where his mouth is. Working for company (Google) which don't have policy against software patents is not working against software freedom. Google never supported software patents (if you think they did, please show me) and they never signed a deal to pay royalties for free software to anyone, like Novell did.

Florian Mueller on the other hand, have escaped the question more times than I care to count. He declined to comment on "yes" or "no" question, like "Are you paid by Microsoft?", more than 10 times.

Calling Jeremy a Google shill is not just rude, it is inaccurate. Shills avoid saying who pays them. Like Florian.
0 Votes
+ -
@DanaBlankenhorn

Dana, I hope and expect that you are not seriously equating working for a company to "shilling" for them, that is, accepting their money in an explicit arrangement to push their PR talking points. Otherwise every employed person is a shill. You have said in a recent post that disclosure is the key here. Jeremy has disclosed his income source. Mueller has not, to my knowledge. If he has, please produce the reference (either you or Mueller).

I have nothing against Florian Mueller, but I have great respect for Jeremy Allison, who has made enormous contributions to open source over the years. I have no reason to think, as Mueller seems to suggest, that he secretly supports software patents. The claim itself is ludicrous and IMO hurts the credibility of those who make it, or to put it another way, put up (the evidence), or shut up.

The main point of Allison's statement is that Mueller advocates complete capitulation to software patents. That seems either mostly or entirely true, just going on his statements that you report in your story. Whether he is a shill (in the proper use of the word), I do not know, but the fact that he can find so much time to advocate in this way is suspicious, don't you think? This can all easily be put to rest though. Florian Mueller, please disclose all your funding sources for your advocacy work for the last five years, as Jeremy Allison has done. That way we can rule out the possibility of you being a shill, and just debate whether your proposal of completely accepting software patents is a good one.
0 Votes
+ -
There is something this article is overlooking.
peter_erskine@... 19th Oct 2010
Which is: New, original, open-source code, WITHOUT patents. Software by the people, for the people. Something Jeremy Allison has done a lot of, and we owe him thanks.
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Has FOSS lost the battle against patents
FlorianMueller 19th Oct 2010
@peter_erskine@... Since Jeremy has produced large quantities (and undoubtedly also a high quality) of code, I can't imagine he's never infringed a patent. Inadvertently, of course, but pretty much unavoidably.
0 Votes
+ -
@peter_erksine : "Which is: New, original, open-source code, WITHOUT patents. Software by the people, for the people. Something Jeremy Allison has done a lot of, and we owe him thanks." - while I am against software patents in practice though not in principle, because of the overworked way the Patent Office works, you cannot thank Jeremy Allison for writing open-source code without patents--it cannot be done. Too many patents out there, and not even the patent lawyers know what they all mean. Allison is just winging it, as we are all when we write code. Get big enough, and I'm sure some patent holder will come after you for some infringement.
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Has FOSS lost the battle against patents
peter_erskine@... 19th Oct 2010
@Ray Lopez, Thank-you Ray for pointing that. I see what you mean. Nevertheless, I don't think a Patentee could easily enforce against a little guy, worth nothing, who had written and published open-source software from another country? Are you really saying that open-source software is rendered impractical by patents? I think the feeling world-wide is leaning the other way - the patenting of software is very dubious.
0 Votes
+ -
Dana what did you find out about Florian?
anonymouseroared 19th Oct 2010
Dana, when you interviewed Florian, can you tell me what he told you about who funds his anti-free software work? Surely as a journalist you would have checked this out. Or did he ask you not to report that?

Bill Gates
http://propietarypatents.blogspot.com/
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Has FOSS lost the battle against patents
DanaBlankenhorn 20th Oct 2010
@anonymouseroared I did. He founded and sold an Internet start-up a decade ago, and has since done work for folks like Real Madrid, the soccer team.
0 Votes
+ -
Very funny. Very, very funny. Egotistical maniacs, all of you. Plant a flag (whichever side of FOSS opinion you want), and defend it, even if you have to shoot your own allies in the process.
0 Votes
+ -
hurting the cause by pointing fingers ?
BrettlMaster Updated - 20th Oct 2010
It is well known (just care to read the 'evangelism is war' document) that it's one of the most effective tactics to have someone pretending to be neutral but secretly supporting your position ('stacked deck').

I'd say judge them by their actions - and as Florian Mueller goes on smearing everyone and everything in the OSS camp having a reputation being pro-Free (from RMS over FSF to Jeremy Allison) I guess it should be obvious.
And I also would like to know who pays the bills for FM.
0 Votes
+ -
Wow ! good reading , You guys are GOD's IMO happy ,
0 Votes
+ -
Dear Dana - Transparency?
jan.wildeboer 20th Oct 2010
You have asked that Open Source lobbyists should be open about their affiliations. But wrt Florian M?ller you seemigly have not asked him on whoms behalf he is working.

We met in Paris, I was wearing my Red Hat, making it extremely obvious who I represent. Jeremy Allison is definitely also not hiding its affiliations and does not hide the fact he is working for Google.

But yet you give Florian the stage for arguments without asking for his qualification and his affiliation.

I find that a bit #disturbing.

Jan Wildeboer, Red Hat's EMEA Evangelist, FFII member
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Has FOSS lost the battle against patents
DanaBlankenhorn 20th Oct 2010
@jan.wildeboer Transparency is good. It's easy when you're an employee -- you just wear the hat. It is harder when you're subject to NDAs, as I noted in an article earlier today.

But your assumption that everyone is bought-and-paid-for when they say something you don't agree with is bad for the cause. Rather than attacking the messenger, why not fisk the message?
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Has FOSS lost the battle against patents
jan.wildeboer 20th Oct 2010
@DanaBlankenhorn I did and continue to do. My problem here is that Florian *claims* to somehow be a FOSS activist where in fact he simply is not. He continues to paint the honest activists from FSFE, FFII and Red Hat (yep, me) as somehow being dishonest (read his blog).

I know who paid Florian in the software patent war, back in 2003-2005 - at that time he was open about it. Florian repeatedly told the world he would never ever return to lobbying against SWPAT, he handed over his nosoftwarepatents.com domain to FFII - the very FFII he nowadays calls "a decayed pressure group promoting 'open standards' for pay".

In his book "No Lobbyist As Such" you can read how he thought in 2003-2005. Comparing that to what he produces ATM should tell you something about Florian.

And in all that time I have been consistent, open and transparent with my position on SWPAT (I think they are wrong) and Open Standards (needed with a strict Royalty-Free policy) and (F)RAND (wrong for lots of good reasons).

Dana, I am under attacj by Florian - not the other way round. I am merely defending myself by pointing out what I have always pointed out - Open Source and Free Software and Open Standards need to be defended from many attacks. Unfortunately Florian now seems to be on the other side, something I personally regret.

Jan
0 Votes
+ -
@DanaBlankenhorn

?GPLv3 ultimately became very restrictive, but as a result, it?s a big-time failure. No major open source project (such as Linux) has embraced it.? Whatever your opinion it?s hard to argue with his facts."

Your accusation that GPL3 is a failure is very much premature. What you failed to take into consideration, is that ALL the coders for linux still own the copyrights for their contributions. Therefore ALL the contributers will need to officially re copyright all of their code to GPLv3 before linux could be release as GPLv3. With the thousands of programmers that made these contributions, that would be an impossible task. This would go for ANY large project such as linux. So your assertion that GPLv3 has failed is not even close to being true. New projects that want to use GPLv3 will have a much easier task as the code would be newly designed.

As a blogger for open source, you should know better.
0 Votes
+ -
Dana, the comments by Jeremy Allison and Jan Wildeboer seriously challenge Florian Mueller's pro-FOSS credentials. Had I not read the comments, I would have got a very different picture on the matter. Please update your article or write a follow up so that other points of view get the same exposure, since not everyone reads the comments of ZDNet's articles.
0 Votes
+ -
I dont think its a 'battle against patents'. It seems its far more a

"Battle against innovation". If FOSS innovated, as opposed to copying the technology off others. Then patents would not be a problem. Patents would infact be an asset.

I guess 'war on patents' sounds more dramatic, and honest than 'war on being able to use other people idea, for your own gain without any reward to the inventors of that technology'.

After all, what is the bottom line, you get companies developing technologies, that become popular. And FOSS sees that as popular and copies it. Then wonders why they get in trouble.

Its the FOSS idealogy, from the start to copy whatever it saw as being of value. (to FOSS). It started with a clone of UNIX, and a clone of UNIX CC the C compiler, and progressed to just about everything anyone else has done.

But almost nothing that is original, or innovative.

So its not a 'battle against patents' its a battle against the ability to innovate products that are comercailly viable.

So if FOSS won the patent war, then what would that achieve ? It would allow FOSS to continue to follow the market, always waiting for the market to sort itself out, then biggy back on its success.

FOSS would never have to develop any of its own idea's and technologies, there would be no need, they just won the patent battle, so they won the right to steal anyone elses idea's and developments and use it to damage the very company who paid people to develop that technology.

So lets hope FOSS grows up, and stops being a follower and becomes a leader. And gives up on any strawman patent issues.

Everyone else plays by the rules, why not FOSS ??

Join the conversation!

Formatting +
BB Codes - Note: HTML is not supported in forums
  • [b] Bold [/b]
  • [i] Italic [/i]
  • [u] Underline [/u]
  • [s] Strikethrough [/s]
  • [q] "Quote" [/q]
  • [ol][*] 1. Ordered List [/ol]
  • [ul][*] · Unordered List [/ul]
  • [pre] Preformat [/pre]
  • [quote] "Blockquote" [/quote]
ie8 fix

The best of ZDNet, delivered

ZDNet Newsletters

Get the best of ZDNet delivered straight to your inbox

Facebook Activity

White Papers, Webcasts, & Resources
ie8 fix