Linux and Open Source

Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols & Paula Rooney

What does Ubuntu want to be when it grows up?

By Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols | February 20, 2012, 9:36am PST

Summary: You can use Ubuntu in the cloud, on servers, on the desktop, on tablets and smartphones, but can the popular Linux distribution play in all these spaces?

Ubuntu has come a long way since it's first circle of friends.

Once upon a time I knew exactly what Ubuntu was. Built on top of Debian Linux, it was the most popular Linux desktop around. Today, Ubuntu is in the clouds, on servers, tablets and smartphones, and, oh yes, it’s still on the desktop. By spreading its energy in so many directions it’s hard to see what Canonical, Ubuntu’s parent company, really wants from Ubuntu. So what exactly is Ubuntu today? Well, here’s my overview of Ubuntu 2012.

First, Ubuntu is still very popular on the desktop. It may no longer, however, be the most popular desktop Linux. Mint, which is built on Ubuntu, is arguably the desktop Linux of choice for experienced Linux users.

That’s because Ubuntu switched its interface from the popular GNOME 2.x style desktop to the more beginner friendly Unity interface. Now, Ubuntu is getting ready to switch its interface again to an even more entry-level user friendly interface: Head-Up Display (HUD).

A first look at Ubuntu Linux’s Head-Up Display (Gallery)

At the same time, Ubuntu has decided to abandon its KDE Linux distribution: Kubuntu. Kubuntu will still be around, as Kubuntu developer Jonathan Riddell wrote but “in the same way as the other community flavors such as Edubuntu, Lubuntu, and Xubuntu.” That is to say, Ubuntu will supply software resources but no developer funding to keep Kubuntu afloat.

This comes as no surprise since, as Riddell admits, “it has not taken over the world commercially and shows no immediate signs of doing so despite awesome successes.” So moving forward, Ubuntu is now fully committed to only its GNOME-based HUD interface.

At the same time though, Ubuntu is also trying to make a stronger play for the business desktop. Canonical recently released the Ubuntu Business Desktop Remix. This is a version of Ubuntu, which is based on Ubuntu 11.10. This edition will come with five years of support. It includes the Open JDK 6 Java run-time environment along with some proprietary software such as Adobe Flash Plugin and VMware View.

Some users object to these proprietary programs, but Mark Shuttleworth, Canonical’s founder, defends this move. Shuttleworth wrote, “Everything in the remix is available from the standard Software Centre. … No secret sauce for customers only; we’re not creating a RHEL (Red Hat Enterprise Linux), we already have an enterprise-quality release cadence called LTS (Long Term Support) and we like it just the way it is. This is a convenience for anyone who wants it. Having a common starting point, or booting straight into a business-oriented image makes it easier for institutional users to evaluate Ubuntu Desktop for their specific needs.”

These changes have lead many long time Ubuntu users to switch to Linux Mint, with its new GNOME 2.x style Cinnamon interface. That said, Ubuntu still remains popular with many users as its recently showing as top desktop distribution on the LinuxQuestions annual user survey shows. My question is, as Canonical divides its attention in so many other directions will it be able to keep its popularity

A walk through Mint Linux’s new/old Cinnamon desktop (Gallery)

For example, Canonical also wants to compete with Red Hat and SUSE in the server space. Ubuntu has been making serious efforts as a server since 2009 . In some server spaces, Ubuntu has done very well for itself.

For example, Ubuntu is the most popular Linux distribution on the Amazon Elastic Compute Cloud. Ubuntu, which is now using OpenStack for its own cloud efforts, has also been making progress in the private cloud market. However, Ubuntu has not been successful in getting corporate customers to switch from RHEL or SUSE to Ubuntu.

At the same time, most of Canonical’s efforts seem to be going to smartphones, tablets, and TVs. The idea here is to use the Unify/HUD interface to provide a universal interface for devices.

A quick look at Ubuntu TV (screenshots)

This is all well and good. I can see Unity making a fine tablet or TV interface. I can also see Unity/HUD becoming a popular interface for the desktop. I know people who want to get their hands dirty with Linux’s controls don’t care for it, but then Mac OS X has shown that there are far more users who want an easy-to-user interface than know the ins and outs of, in Apple’s case, BSD Unix. I can also see Ubuntu continuing to do well on the cloud. I’m not at all sure it can make great gains on the small business or enterprise server space.

But, and here’s where I come to a problem, I don’t know that Canonical can execute all these plans at once. Dropping Kubuntu, whle painful to some users, was a smart move. Still, the company isn’t that large to begin with and it’s recently undergone a major reorganization. Individually I see most of these changes as being for the best. Collectively though… I don’t know. I fear Canonical has bitten off more than it can chew. What do you think?

Mint’s Cinnamon: The Future of the Linux Desktop? (Review)

Linux users cautiously optimistic about Ubuntu’s Head-Up Display desktop

Ubuntu plans shift to mobile

Beyond the desktop: Ubuntu Linux’s new Head-Up Display

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Ubuntu, Linux, Desktops, UNIX, Open Source, Operating Systems, Software, Hardware, Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols

Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols, aka sjvn, has been writing about technology and the business of technology since CP/M-80 was the cutting edge, PC operating system

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Oy, Vey Not again.

Steve I. 23rd Mar

Ah, the M$ schill Loverock Davidson and his proteg?? RiceGf (GF= girlfriend?) are at it again..Boy is their schtick getting old. At least Linux users have a CHOICE of their desktop environment. (Just having to occasionally use the Windows box at work is like getting into a car without power brakes or steering...) Sure Ubuntu is going after the unified-interface-for-noobs across desktop/tablet/smartphone, and it's a good marketing move. Microsoft is trying the same thing with Metro, and it makes sense for both since computer use is now mainstream and no longer the domain of the pocket-protector crowd. Most average Joes cannot even adjust the brakes on a bicycle, so their computer interfaces must be as simple as possible. The dedicated Linux users that complain about, say, Unity need to stop whining too. How long does it take to type "sudo apt-get install gnome desktop"?
One of the best things about Linux too, is that, especially in this economy, it saves a ton of money. And NOT because the OS is free (as in beer) but because it can run it on ancient hardware. Sure it's not too hard to afford one reasonably modern computer, but when one needs several (work, home, garage, kids, home music server, wife, experimenter-box, etc.) it's nice to be able to run, say Puppy, on a 450MHz P2 with no loss of ability/speed for basic stuff like web browsing, word processing, CD playing, etc. (Stuff that is 90% of the use for many home computers).
LoveRock D. et.al. seem like the kind of people who log onto an NAACP website and preach white supremacism......

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RE: What does Ubuntu want to be when it grows up?

Loverock Davidson- Updated - 20th Feb

How long does it take for linux to grow up? Its been around for 15 years and look at the lack of progress it has made in that time. That's just it, linux doesn't know what it wants to be so it fails at everything. Then you have Mark Shuttleworth who quit his job at Canonical so there goes driving that company in any direction. Linux lacks any type of focus so it tries to be everywhere but people just get annoyed by it. Now that I think about it, if ubuntu/linux was to go away no one would notice or care. That is something Canonical, Shuttleworth, and Torvalds should consider. Just kill off the linux platform as it serves no purpose.

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RE: What does Ubuntu want to be when it grows up?

TrevorBirdCH 20th Feb

@Loverock Davidson-
What a surprise - Loverock can't see that non-windows systems have a place in computing systems.
25 years of computiing support - from IBM Mainframe systems, through the horrors of Windows 3.0, through to the point where I have a real choice in what I use for home, fun and work systems. I have an ubuntu 'server' (parentheses because it is PC grade hardware) running mail, web site and file/print sharing.
I am struggling at the moment with the route Linus is going on the desktop, but Windows 8 has no real appeal for me either.
I use Windows 7 at work and think it is probably the best work desktop implementation I have ever used, although I was blown away by SunOS 4 in the early 90's, which made Windows look like an old Dodge pickup competing with a Mustang.
I like the diversity, I also like the ability to chose 'horses for courses', and as a basic desktop right through to server system, linux definitely has a place in my clients' offices.

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Alexander the Penguin

ricegf 20th Feb

@Loverock Davidson- I'm so glad you post - it truly brightens my day!

In 4Q11, Linux ran 53% of smartphones, 39% of tablets, 64% of servers, 81% of mainframes, and 91% of supercomputers. A little more "lack of progress" and Linus will weep like Alexander for more worlds to conquer!

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A couple corrections

Cynical99 20th Feb

@ricegf
Linux is not Android and Android is not Linux. If you want to talk about Desktop Linux, 1% coverage.

For smart phones, Apple still kills Android in the profitability arena. That little fact will eventually kill the Android based hardware makers.

Same goes for the 39% of tablets. By the way I own 2 Androids and an iPad, Apple wins hands down

91% of Super Computers, well, only sort of. The versions of Linux on these beasts is highly customized to the point where it's barely recognizable as Linux.

64% of servers is another statistic (Lies, damned lies and statistics). If you had said, Web Facing Servers, you might be right. Overall servers? Yet more fud from the uneducated.

Better luck next time

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RE: What does Ubuntu want to be when it grows up?

guzz46 Updated - 20th Feb

@Cynical99

Hey the clown is back again, I always get a good laugh reading your comments, but I can never figure out if you're doing a loverock or if you're just not too bright.
Have you found out what microsofts server sales are yet? you know all those servers "apparently" invisible to the Web hidden behind firewalls, hence "apparently" impossible to know how many are really out there?

Please tell me what kernel Android runs on.

Please tell me what kernel supercomputers run on.

You also forgot all those embedded Linux devices, I guess they don't run on Linux either right? or are you just jealous that Linux is dominant in more than just one area, "cough"... windows.

"Lies, damned lies and statistics" so you don't like statistics yet you use the 1% Linux desktop myth, it looks like you only use statistics that favor your argument, I see those double standards of yours coming out again.

So now you appear to be claiming that smart phone OEM's that use Android aren't making any money? and are all going to eventually go under because Apple makes more profit than they do?
Just out of curiosity how is windows phone going? I guess Nokia is going to eventually go under too right?

Keep those hilarious comments coming.

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RE: What does Ubuntu want to be when it grows up?

ricegf 21st Feb

@Cynical99 "Android is not Linux... Apple still kills Android... By the way I own 2 Androids..."

Don't look now, but you're arguing with *yourself*! :-D

In any event, claiming it's not *REAL* Linux if it's successful is a tautology. Linux is a kernel. Android runs on it. Windows Phone 7 (if you can find one) doesn't.

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64% of servers? Then why are server sales

William Farrel 21st Feb

@ricegf
at 78% (or something) for WIndows based units.

And don't say because they don't have a choice, that they ship with the OS installed. You can get any server from the OEM's without the OS for less.

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RE: What does Ubuntu want to be when it grows up?

CharlesNorrie 20th Feb

@Loverock Davidson- I thank God (Mark Shuttleworth) every time I don't have to use old IBM programs or appalling Gatesware!

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RE: What does Ubuntu want to be when it grows up?

paulfx1 21st Feb

@Loverock Davidson- You do that math on Windows to arrive at 15 years? what is 1991 from 2012?

Maybe we're happy where Linux is at right now?

Fail some on this:

pfred1@spot:~$ uptime
16:17:21 up 61 days, 16:01, 1 user, load average: 0.22, 0.17, 0.16

The only thing that annoys me is you.

Linux isn't a platform you plank.

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RE: What does Ubuntu want to be when it grows up?

CasualAdventurer 22nd Feb

Ubuntu appears to be spreading itself thin, but I think its following a plan that is difficult to see when just looking at the pieces. Apple has a desktop OS, a tablet/phone OS, a server OS, and is working to expand to TV. Microsoft has a desktop OS which will soon be unified to a tablet OS and a phone OS that runs the same kernel, a server OS and is breaking into TV via Xbox. Ubuntu... well you see my point by now. It is entering into every playground the big boys are in, and catching up to them quickly.

The primary differences are price (Ubuntu wins) and apps (Ubuntu loses). That said, with more apps moving to the cloud, Ubuntu stands to make rapid gains. I think SMB's will grow to appreciate a centralized, low-cost computing universe that is at least as stable as the more mainstream options and that can offer what every other platform can offer through virtual machines when those needs arise.

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Hello???

FuzzyIce 23rd Feb

@Loverock Davidson- Excuse-me, when did you land in Earth? Or when did they release you from that institution...? Just make a little research on what run in the Supercomputers... I think you will find a purpose for Linux, at least one...

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fdsdd

jywhy888 8th Mar

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RE: What does Ubuntu want to be when it grows up?

rshol Updated - 20th Feb

Ubuntu does not play well in any space so far. Its not the most popular on the desktop (Mint), not the most popular on servers (Redhat, CentOS and plain old Debian are all more popular) and it cannot be purchased on a phone or a tablet. Why is Ubuntu even worth writing about today? Linux is relevant, but not Ubuntu.

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RE: Linux is relevant, but not Ubuntu.

Rabid Howler Monkey 20th Feb

@rshol Just like Debian is relevant for Ubuntu, Ubuntu is relevent for Linux Mint. No Debian, no Ubuntu or Linux Mint Debian edition. No Ubuntu, no Linux Mint. However, that said, could hedging one's bets be the driver behind Linux Mint Debian edition?

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RE: What does Ubuntu want to be when it grows up?

YetAnotherBob 21st Feb

@Rabid Howler Monkey

Linux Mint is providing an easy to install Debian. The Debian Edition links to the Debian repositories, not to the Ubuntu repositories. Debian has larger repositories than Ubuntu does.

Simply Mepis and Antix did the same thing a couple of years ago, for the same reasons. Ubuntu is trying too hard to compete with Fedora for the 'Bleeding Edge' groups. The result is too many hangs and crashes for some users tastes.

Going with Debian gives the users a more reliable system, without the occasional craziness of Ubuntu.

Debian offers three levels of software, with a fourth for those who are fanatics.

Stable , for servers and systems that absolutely have to work. It takes a couple of years to get the bugs out, so software in Stable is usually 'old'.

Testing , for general use. This software is getting the bugs out, and is usually much newer than the versions in 'Stable'. Usually less than 6 months old. Testing is generally compatible with Ubuntu, though since Ubuntu compiles with different flags set, a Debian package might not run on Ubuntu, or vice versa. (Only about 80% success).

Unstable , "Sid". These are packages that are certified to run, but often crash. These are close to the latest. Once they have enough issues resolved, they move into Testing. Comparable to Fedora.

Experimental, These are packages that are submitted, but that are not assured of running. This is for those who don't mind when the system goes down. If you must run the absolute latest, this is where you will find it on Debian. These are usually packages created directly from Upstream, with nothing fixed. But, at least half of the packages don't really work as advertised.

I hope this helps you.

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RE: What does Ubuntu want to be when it grows up?

przemoli 21st Feb

@rshol
Any hard data on actuall usage of Ubuntu and new king of Linux Desktop Space ?

And BTW when did you seen products successful before it entered market ?

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RE: What does Ubuntu want to be when it grows up?

YetAnotherBob 21st Feb

@przemoli

Ubuntu still has more total users, but Limux Mint has more new users. The actual user base is generally established by sales figures. Since neither distribution (distro) is sold, there are no user base figures. That's after all why Gartner says that there are only 1% of desktop users on Linux. That's all that are purchased with Linux pre-installed. The vast majority of Linux desktop users just buy a windows machine, and then replace Windows, or install Linux beside Windows. Best guesses made by comparing visits to Web Sites vary widely, giving figures anywhere from 0.05% (Microsoft Help) to 20% or more. Microsoft's own estimate in late 2008 was 8-10% It's almost certainly a bit larger now.

Microsoft isn't worried, as at least 2/3 of Linux users 'dual boot', meaning that they still use Windows, and often purchase Microsoft products as well as using Linux.

Home use of Linux lags Corporate server use, and leads Corporate Desktop use. Corporate desktop use is known, and is around 2% globally.

Linux is preferred in many corporations for server use because one Linux server can replace up to 5 Windows servers, using the same Hardware. The differences are in the Unix background of Linux verses the desktop background of Windows. Linux server administrators get paid more, but the corporations need fewer of them.

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Using existing user base for beta-testing GUI experiments?

RelaxWalk 20th Feb

I was an ex-Ubuntu user. I changed to LinuxMint since 2011 because I am scared of the schizophrenic pace of changes in the GUI of Ubuntu. I can cope with changes but I am not convinced at all that the new changes in Ubuntu are really productive. I have the feeling that Canonical is using the customer base to experiment with GUI genetic manipulation. Hoping that one day they can come up with a right combination. In the next version 12.10, I suppose icons, menu, and HUD will all be removed. The OS will guess what you want to click and will do that for you.

On a desktop with a 24 inches monitor (yes, it's luxurious, but it actually costed me 25% of a 19 inches CRT monitor 7 years ago), any GUI gimmicks like global menu, HUD, hiding scrollbar, etc. just to save a dozen of pixels is just ridiculous.

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RE: What does Ubuntu want to be when it grows up?

Claude Balloune 21st Feb

@RelaxWalk
You do realize of course that you can always choose at log-in time, your choice of the new Unity, or your preferable old Gnome / Gnome "classic", do you?
You can even choose KDE if you want (provided you install it on top of Ubuntu).
Just logout and then log in again.
(I admit that the default skinny scrollbar is an annoyance)

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RE: What does Ubuntu want to be when it grows up?

mdutours 20th Feb

This would be a nice question to ask Mark Shuttleworth or Jane Silber...

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RE: What does Ubuntu want to be when it grows up?

CobraA1 20th Feb

"What does Ubuntu want to be when it grows up?"

Who knows? They keep overhauling the UI. Maybe someday something will stick, but I doubt the new HUD will.

"Now, Ubuntu is getting ready to switch its interface again to an even more entry-level user friendly interface: Head-Up Display (HUD)."

It's a fancy search engine with suggestions. Or a King's Quest game, if you're not already familiar with the application. Time to play "Guess the right word to use your app!!"

Basically, it takes the problem the Office ribbon was supposed to fix and makes it 100 times worse.

There's nothing even remotely "entry-level user friendly" about the HUD.

The GUI became popular for a good reason: It's easily discoverable and usable. People don't want to search - they just want everything to be there, ready to be clicked. Nobody wants to learn hundreds of text commands to use an app, sorry. And they certainly don't want to re-learn them for every new app, either.

If this were truly the future of UIs, then Windows and MacOS would have never been invented. iPhones would have never become popular, either. GUIs are the future, not search engines.

Sorry, the HUD is absurd. A search engine is a last resort, not a primary interface. Especially not for a graphical UI.

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RE: What does Ubuntu want to be when it grows up?

strav Updated - 20th Feb

@CobraA1

Here is a use case for you:

1. by either the mouse or the keyboard, I invoke the Hud.
2. The hud shows up, displaying by default all the top level menu categories I usually find in my application.
3. by either the mouse or the keyboard, I select one of these categories, the next sub level show up and I see other categories or simple menu entries; I repeat this step until I find what I'm looking for.

So far, the hud behaves exactly like a traditional menu: no need to remember anything, no need to know the application.

Now here's the point of having a hud: I wish to bypass all this and go to the 4th sub-level menu entry to "enhance edges" of an image; without remembering a shortcut, I just need to invoke the hud, type: "enh" and I'm there. Even better, if there's only a small subset of menu entries I'm using in a given application, assume one of those menu entry is "blur", then if I search for "b", amongst all the entries beginning with "b", I get "blur" first no matter if it's buried at the nth level of my application menu.

Now what's the problem with that. (I'm not to say they won't screw it up in the implementation but there's really something in the "hud" idea and I don't think the devs are so stupid they won't consider something that obvious as the ability to explore your menus)

You know what really sucks though? Canonical's habit of including half-baked and half-tested features in a release. Including a novelty like the Hud in a LTS release couldn't provide a better example for this. I'm betting that aside from the paradigm shift that Unity has caused, what has hurt the most the ubuntu community these latest years is the decreasing quality (in terms of reliability) of their releases.

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I have real work to do so I'll just stick with Win7

otaddy 21st Feb

@strav All this bickering over UI's, and whether or not something is open or proprietary is getting old. No wonder Linux never got any meaningful desktop share.

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RE: What does Ubuntu want to be when it grows up?

CobraA1 21st Feb

@strav

"So far, the hud behaves exactly like a traditional menu: no need to remember anything, no need to know the application."

Except you have an extra click for invoking the HUD, as opposed to the classic menu where the items are already open at the top level. Of course, the classic menu has its own issues, which is why Linux is going experiment-happy with the UI, why Microsoft is invested heavily in the ribbon, and why mobile devices got rid of menus altogether.

"by either the mouse or the keyboard, I select one of these categories, the next sub level show up and I see other categories or simple menu entries; I repeat this step until I find what I'm looking for . . ."

". . . I wish to bypass all this and go to the 4th sub-level menu entry"

Yeah, if you've got menus that deep, you're still doing rather poorly at discovery. Most people don't bother digging that deep to find a feature.

This is really one of the reasons why Microsoft is going ribbon crazy - they're trying to get as many things as possible within one or two clicks, and the Ribbon does exactly that. Click once for a different tab, and click again on the item. There are occasional exceptions, but that's the general rule for the ribbon. Everything within two clicks. Avoid super deeply nested menus.

The problem is that a 4th level deep menu even exists! The solution is not to patch it up with a band-aid, the solution is to drag it out of the 4th level and into the 1st or 2nd.

"I wish to bypass all this and go to the 4th sub-level menu entry to "enhance edges" of an image; without remembering a shortcut, I just need to invoke the hud, type: 'enh' and I'm there."

Unless there are several entries beginning with the word "enhance," in which case you'll end up having to do a lot of typing every time.

Not to mention that it's probably named "Unsharp mask" - Hello GIMP's strange and archaic terminology.

"Now what's the problem with that."

See above examples. It doesn't actually solve the root problem, it just puts a band-aid on it without actually fixing it. Not to mention that menu names in a good number of Linux software really need an overhaul if search is expected to work properly.

Problem: Menus are too deep.
Solution: We'll ignore the problem itself and bury it under a search box. Nevermind that if you don't know what you're searching for, you'll still be digging through deep menus.

Umm, at this point I really like the Office ribbon a lot better.

"Including a novelty like the Hud in a LTS release"

Indeed. The concept is untested, unproven. But hey, it's already the future because a single dev thinks so.

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RE: What does Ubuntu want to be when it grows up?

YetAnotherBob 21st Feb

@strav

Too many mouse clicks. that's why I chose to use Mint Debian. XFCE is both customizable and I don't need as much mouse activity. A good launcher with similarity recognition would also help. I expect to find one soon.

GUI's are nice for some folks, but the Keyboard is still faster and more flexible. One thing that I have done is to increase the size of the labels on the icons.

The Greeks were right, print is better than hieroglyphics. Icons are not the be-all and end-all of interfaces. Sometimes a word is worth a thousand pictures.

Lots of new users agree with this assessment too.

Gnome are learning that they were on the wrong track. Ubuntu is soon to learn. Microsoft is busy repeating Canonical's mistakes right now. Meanwhile, Apple is tying it's users to a large computer complex to allow speech recognition for search and application start up. Apple already knows that Hieroglyphics isn't the best way to go. Apple made this set of mistakes years ago.

Oh, and by the way, Google and Linux do speech recognition too. Linux not as good, as it runs local.

Long term, I think that icon heaven is not the best way. You may disagree with me.

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RE: What does Ubuntu want to be when it grows up?

guzz46 21st Feb

@CobraA1

"But hey, it's already the future because a single dev thinks so."

Linux isn't like windows where you don't have choices, this may be the future of Ubuntu but in Linux you have choice... if you don't like it then don't use it.

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RE: What does Ubuntu want to be when it grows up?

CobraA1 21st Feb

"GUI's are nice for some folks, but the Keyboard is still faster and more flexible. "

I disagree. It can take longer to type an entire word than it does to click on an icon. And many people are not touch typists, or want to memorize keystrokes for everything they do.

Also, reading hurts discovery. A picture can indeed be worth a thousand words, and the average person will likely be able to understand icons much faster than reading words.

And that is not to say that GUIs ignore words, either: The ribbon interface does include both icons and words. Words can still be used if needed.

"The Greeks were right, print is better than hieroglyphics."

When it comes to reading content rich material, yes, but that's different than designing UIs. UIs are for interaction, not for information.

"Meanwhile, Apple is tying it's users to a large computer complex to allow speech recognition for search and application start up."

Yes and no. I don't see myself using Siri as my primary interface. I see it when I need to use my hands for something else (driving or washing dishes etc), but not as a complete replacement for the UI.

Apple is certainly not getting rid of the icons because of speech, don't be absurd. The icons are still there, and probably always will be.

"Linux isn't like windows where you don't have choices"

You have choices with Windows. Indeed, you could install something like Litestep. Not very many people do so, and developers haven't been scrambling to make dozens of choices, but that's not to say it's impossible.

"Oh, and by the way, Google and Linux do speech recognition too. "

Oh, and by the way, so does Windows 7.

"You may disagree with me. "

I do, and I can back it up with good reason.

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RE: What does Ubuntu want to be when it grows up?

Claude Balloune Updated - 21st Feb

@CobraA1
Things such as this and Unity are being built for new users, and for small-screen users - of cell phones. I suspect that the next step in this HUD philosophy will be probably be voice commands. You may have already heard of this voice-command stuff, hmnn?
Old timers (i.e. luddites) like you and me can always invoke the Gnome Classic at login time. Or continue to use the Terminal interface.
(sigh) we're a dying breed... Awk- you might as well Kill me.
But you'll have to use sudo.

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RE: What does Ubuntu want to be when it grows up?

CobraA1 21st Feb

"I suspect that the next step in this HUD philosophy will be probably be voice commands."

Probably, but I don't see that as ultimately being superior to the normal UI.

"You may have already heard of this voice-command stuff, hmnn?"

Yes, and I've used it. It's a nice alternative for when my hands are being used for something else (driving, washing dishes, etc), but I wouldn't say it's a total replacement for standard UIs.

"Old timers (i.e. luddites) like you and me can always invoke the Gnome Classic at login time."

Well, you can be a Luddite. I plan on moving forward with new UIs and using both the new UIs and voice recognition. I recognize that the future is not one thing or the other, but rather whatever is most convenient at the time. Sometimes voice is convenient, sometimes touch is convenient, sometimes clicking is convenient.

The real dying breed is the one that thinks it absolutely must be one thing or the other, and fails to recognize that it's not mutually exclusive.

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RE: What does Ubuntu want to be when it grows up?

guzz46 22nd Feb

@CobraA1

"You have choices with Windows"

No you don't, you get what microsoft gives you and thats that, the day microsoft starts releasing windows with different GUI's then thats giving you choice, developers creating some ugly third party software as a band aid to place over top of windows GUI is the direct result of windows not giving you choices, you may call that choice but I certainly don't.
After all Linux is modular... windows isn't.

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RE: What does Ubuntu want to be when it grows up?

CobraA1 Updated - 22nd Feb

@guzz46 "developers creating some ugly third party software as a band aid to place over top of windows GUI "

You misunderstand. Litestep is an actual shell replacement - it's not merely covering the Windows shell. It is in fact like KDE or Gnome (and Gnome is just as ugly IMO). Do your research before making wild, inaccurate claims.

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RE: What does Ubuntu want to be when it grows up?

guzz46 23rd Feb

@CobraA1

"You misunderstand. Litestep is an actual shell replacement - it's not merely covering the Windows shell"

But you can't get rid of windows shell because windows isn't modular, you can completely remove Gnome, KDE or whatever and install Fluxbox or Openbox and have a very fast system, or even remove the GUI all together.

You can't do that in windows because windows doesn't give you choice.

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RE: What does Ubuntu want to be when it grows up?

CobraA1 23rd Feb

@guzz46

"But you can't get rid of windows shell because windows isn't modular"

Sure you can. The Windows shell is just explorer.exe (progman.exe in really old versions of Windows). It's always been replaceable. Granted, it's closed source and sorting out all of the dependencies with other files is quite the task, but it's possible.

The "modularity" of Windows has been disputed for a long time, and is actually somewhat of a red herring. The problem with replacing the Windows shell is not really its modularity, but rather that it's closed source and early versions of Windows were horribly documented.

In the early days of Windows, the shell was actually set by a single line in a text file (win.ini, if I remember correctly), and was actually quite easy.

Problem is, the dependencies that came with it. A lot of software hooked into the shell, and they would break if the shell was replaced. Still, it's possible, it's just that it's really hard and to be honest people aren't crying out for a new shell, as the current shell works well for most people.

It also looks like Microsoft is really locking down the shell with Vista/7/8. With Windows 3, 9x, NT, and XP it's possible just to replace the built in shell by replacing a few files. However, they're really locked down in Vista/7, and Windows 8 appears to be pushing it to the point where it's likely be be impossible without "jailbreaking" the OS.

Truth be known, desktop replacement was never popular with Windows, even when it was easier back in the days of Windows 3 and Windows 95. And since the ability to do so is virtually unused, Microsoft is simply going to remove it.

As much as you may tout the ability to do this with Linux - the plain truth is that most people really don't want this option. Different shells are confusing and unnecessary. There's really no good reason for people to change shells, and they usually just get confused if they're at a public computer with a different shell. It just doesn't work out in real life use case scenarios, sorry.

There's really no outcry to allow this in Windows, there really isn't. As much as you may like it, the demand just isn't there for it. So - go ahead and tout is as an advantage of Linux - it's an advantage nobody really cares about. Nobody wants it, nobody uses it.

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RE: What does Ubuntu want to be when it grows up?

guzz46 23rd Feb

@CobraA1

"Sure you can"

Thats not getting rid of it, its stll there on your system, getting rid of it is uninstalling it all together.

"As much as you may tout the ability to do this with Linux - the plain truth is that most people really don't want this option"

Sure they do, just look at how many people voice there opinion on Gnome 3 vs KDE, or Cinnamon, or Unity, or XFCE or whatever, thats what happens when you give people choice, some will like one thing and some will like another, it always seems to be the windows fanboys who try and argue that the many Linux GUI choices isn't a good thing, but windows 8 giving you the option of using metro or the standard desktop is fine... funny that.

There is a very good reason to use a different desktop environment, if you have an old PC that runs dog slow on windows or KDE, Unity or whatever you can choose to use XFCE or LXDE or a window manager like Openbox and have a fast usable system again, saving you from buying another PC, because its not just replacing the shell, its completely removing any kind of bloat.

People do care about it, people do want it and people do use it, unless you can somehow prove to me that everyone who uses Linux uses one desktop environment then you are obviously wrong.

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CobraA1 23rd Feb

"Sure they do, just look at how many people voice there opinion on Gnome 3 vs KDE, or Cinnamon, or Unity, or XFCE or whatever"

Why yes - all of those people in an OS that has 1-2% of overall market share, and which has a disproportionately large percentage of power users. Not exactly a shining example of Microsoft's target market.

"if you have an old PC that runs dog slow . . ."

Finding a system that old is honestly becoming rare. For something that won't run Windows 7 or the upcoming Windows 8, we're talking what - the Pentium 3? A computer that's 10 years old or more? I'd say that's a pretty niche market at this point.

"it always seems to be the windows fanboys who try and argue that the many Linux GUI choices isn't a good thing, but windows 8 giving you the option of using metro or the standard desktop is fine... funny that."

Yeah, funny that - people don't seem to want the choice, either. Look at the complaints about Metro so far.

Not to mention, we're not talking about competitive UIs with Windows 8, we're talking about the same company trying a new UI - at an incredible risk. We still don't honestly know if this will succeed or not.

Having lots of choices for the shell tends to serve some niche markets very well, yes. However, it doesn't seem to appeal to the much larger market that Microsoft is targeting.

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RE: What does Ubuntu want to be when it grows up?

guzz46 23rd Feb

"Why yes - all of those people in an OS that has 1-2% of overall market share"

Tell me know, how do you know the market share of a free OS? and how do you know what percentage of its users are power users? or are you just making up numbers?

"Finding a system that old is honestly becoming rare"

That maybe the case if your a windows user and have to upgrade your hardware just to be able to run the newest version of windows, but us Linux users don't need to do that.
Plus there is a difference between running windows and windows actually being usable, I could run XP on my old Nokia N82, but it wasn't usable.

"Yeah, funny that - people don't seem to want the choice, either. Look at the complaints about Metro so far."

Well that obviously depends on the choices they are given, and seeing metro I can't blame them for not liking it, now if only they had more choices.

Were not talking about competitive UI's with Linux either, they don't compete with each other.
How does having choice not appeal to a larger market? after all choice is pretty much everywhere, you have plenty of choices when it comes to cars, bikes, tv's, hifi equipment, the list could go on and on, you even have plenty of choices with software, just look at how many music players are out there, why should a GUI be any different?

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CobraA1 25th Feb

"Tell me know, how do you know the market share of a free OS?"

Basically based on websites like netmarketshare.com. There is a chance of some bias, but that's the best data we can get AFAIK.

"and how do you know what percentage of its users are power users?"

I didn't give a percentage, because I don't have one. However, most Linux users I know of are in it because they're running servers or are tech enthusiasts. The vast majority of people I see who aren't enthusiasts are running Windows or MacOS.

"That maybe the case if your a windows user and have to upgrade your hardware just to be able to run the newest version of windows, but us Linux users don't need to do that."

Around 10 years or so, the hardware itself usually begins breaking down. Especially the hard drives. Besides, there's nothing particularly wrong with replacing a computer after 10 years. Technology advances at a rapid pace these days, and there's no really good reason for anybody to be stuck in ancient history.

And you can get a low end computer for really cheap these days - You can get a machine that is much faster than a Pentium 3 and fully capable of running Windows for $300.

"Plus there is a difference between running windows and windows actually being usable, I could run XP on my old Nokia N82, but it wasn't usable."

Yes, I'm talking usable. Most desktop systems made in the last 10 years are able to run Windows and be usable. An old Pentium 4 may need a bit more memory, but should still be usable.

And of course XP would be unusable with the N82. You'd be emulating an x86 on a 333 MHz ARM chip. I'd expect that to be completely unusable. You might as well try to be running it on a 486.

I think that's a pretty stupid example. Of course an old smart phone won't run it well. Windows isn't expected to be usable on a smart phone until Microsoft releases Windows 8 for ARM.

"Were not talking about competitive UI's with Linux either, they don't compete with each other."

Sure they do. While they share some libraries so that you don't need to worry about porting some apps, generally speaking a user isn't expected to be running both at the same time, and thus yes the user will generally run one or the other. They are competing for usage share.

"How does having choice not appeal to a larger market? after all choice is pretty much everywhere, you have plenty of choices when it comes to cars, bikes, tv's, hifi equipment, the list could go on and on"

Most people don't get confused with cars and bikes. The pedals are always in the same place. The steering wheel or handlebars is in the same place. Most people can drive different vehicles with no confusion. The problem with these GUIs for OSes are that they are very, very different. Nothing is standard between them. People don't want to re-learn where everything is.

Linux has to find a way of drawing more people to it, not ways of pushing them away. Making a UI that is not already familiar to them is going to be driving them away. Linux needs to latch onto the familiar to draw people to it, otherwise IMO it's going to stay irrelevant.

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RE: What does Ubuntu want to be when it grows up?

guzz46 Updated - 25th Feb

"Basically based on websites like netmarketshare.com"

You are aware that is not an accurate way of determining market share right? besides why would Ballmer a few years ago estimate Linux desktop market share to be about the same as Apples?

"I didn't give a percentage"

You didn't give an exact number but you said a disproportionately large percentage of power users, so how do you know this?

"Around 10 years or so, the hardware itself usually begins breaking down"

Not always, I have seen some pretty old hardware still running fine, and there are people who don't really like computers and just use them to browse the web, check emails etc... so why should they need to fork out for a new PC when Linux can allow them to do it on their current hardware?

"Yes, I'm talking usable. Most desktop systems made in the last 10 years are able to run Windows and be usable"

You must have a different definition of the word usable, I used to have a (roughly) ten year old AMD desktop in my living room, it had XP on it, and after 6 months or so of use it was far from what I would call usable... you know the whole windows slow down thing.

"I think that's a pretty stupid example"

It was an example of the difference between being able to run windows and windows actually being usable, don't take it literally.

"Sure they do"

No they don't, this isn't a race, and what are you talking about porting apps? if the app runs on Linux then you can use it within any Linux GUI, plus why would a user be running two GUI's at the same time? they aren't competing for usage share, there are no sales figures here, they are simply there for users to choose what they like.

"Most people don't get confused with cars and bikes"

The steering wheel can be on the left or right (or the middle), not to mention all the electronic controls, stereo controls etc... plus have you ever seen someone use a new tv or dvr? besides if your argument was correct then there wouldn't be oodles of music players, video editing software, dvd rippers etc...
Besides why do you think people need to re-learn everything? if they don't want to re-learn GUI's then they wouldn't change GUI's.

"Linux has to find a way of drawing more people to it, not ways of pushing them away"

How is Linux pushing them away? how is Linux irrelevant? I have been over this with you before, Linux isn't a company, how do you think windows would go if the roles were reversed and Linux was the big anticompetitive company giving rebates to OEM's for not putting windows on their hardware?

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I use Ubuntu Server Lucid LTS

Dietrich T. Schmitz * Your Linux Advocate 20th Feb

because it's easy to use, safe, and stable.
The last maintenance release for Lucid, 10.04.4 just came out and I will upgrade to 12.04 for Ubuntu Server only.

All Desktop needs now have been taken over with Linux Mint 12 KDE (4.8).

I see no future for Ubuntu Desktop given what KDE affords.

KDE with oxygen-transparent is far better the Windows 7 Aero.

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RE: What does Ubuntu want to be when it grows up?

tonymcs@... 20th Feb

@Dietrich T. Schmitz * Your Linux Advocate

Still arguing over which grid of static icons is best huh DTS? The rest of us moved on to apps years ago, while Linux users appear stuck at the desktop UI level. Time to move on so you can get some applicaitons and games.

A few years from now, I'll be reading how Ubuntu's new shell is desperately trying to copy the highly successful WIn 8 wink

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RE: What does Ubuntu want to be when it grows up?

przemoli 21st Feb

@tonymcs@...
Its not role of OS vendor to wirte apps and games.
Think more before you write something ...

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RE: What does Ubuntu want to be when it grows up?

Michael Alan Goff 20th Feb

@Dietrich T. Schmitz * Your Linux Advocate

I haven't used KDE for a while (4.5), but it was a bit heavier than the other desktops. What do you think of Cinnamon?

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RE: What does Ubuntu want to be when it grows up?

guzz46 20th Feb

@Michael Alan Goff

KDE can actually be reasonably lightweight, Debian sid 64bit here and after a fresh boot KDE uses just over 220mb of ram.

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RE: What does Ubuntu want to be when it grows up?

paulfx1 21st Feb

@Michael Alan Goff Fluxbox here. 22MB of RAM happy

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RE: What does Ubuntu want to be when it grows up?

drejones 20th Feb

I'm a big fan of Ubuntu and I continue to look forward to what they can think up next. I was never a fan of the Xerox styled UI's that have existed up until... OSX? Therefore, I love Gnome 3 w/ shell and think Ubuntu has interesting ideas about where it wants to go. The first typically does get bloody so I applaud Ubuntu for taking leaps into the mainstream user space with Linux on tablets/phones/tv's etc. If Ubuntu goes mainstream it can only be good for the entire Linux community.

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RE: What does Ubuntu want to be when it grows up?

tora201 21st Feb

@drejones
I'm also a fan of Ubuntu and love 11.10 and 12.04 Alpha, which I am currently using on my main rig. perfectly stable, too. I also like Cinnamon, and Xfce, and use them along with Unity, depending on my mood. all work perfectly well and I have them customized to my needs. Oh, I love being spoilt for choice.

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RE: What does Ubuntu want to be when it grows up?

CharlesNorrie 20th Feb

But it is grown up and surpasses all the opposition!

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I guess we will have to wait and see....

LazLong 20th Feb

How this will will work out in the long run, for them Ubuntu/Canonical & us users.....
I too dont find their direction with Unity, etc (Mac style buttons, HeadsUp) useful for me, but can see they want to differentiate themselves. I can even envison that this work/direction could even lead to some interesting, useful, innovative things. Unity on tablets, more granular voice control (HeadsUp) a la Siri or Star Trek.....I do wish they would have made it more open, less specific to their dstro. more along the lines Mint did with Cinnamon.

Yet there is new and/or revitalized UI/distro alternatives XFCE (Xubuntu,Saline is one I like alot), OpenBox (Semplice/Salix), KDE & RazorQT and of course Mint, Sabyon which comes with many or any UI. My primary system is Mint10 althoght I play with others even Vista & Win8

I remember when they (Ubuntu) first came out, and thought UserLinux was a better direction.
Now UserLinux is no longer & they became the more if not most popular distro, only to be superceded for now by Mint & others.

We will have to wait and see.......

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RE: What does Ubuntu want to be when it grows up?

qst4 20th Feb

I'm new to Ubuntu and coming from a Mac was able to transition with very minor issues and found both unity and Gnome 3 easy to use. While I understand that experienced users "old heads" miss the old interface, in my opinion if no distro within the Linux world is willing to innovate and move Linux to a more user friendly space Linux will continue to be a fringe operating system. I absolutely hated all windows OSs with their cluttered desktops and confusing menu driven systems which is exactly how many linux distros/DEs looked to me, essentially nothing new with the only advantage being that they were free. Unity/Gnome 3 changed that for me. HUD may not be everything Cannonical is hoping it to be but I think the other features in Unity/Gnome 3 will be a major draw for new users.

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RE: What does Ubuntu want to be when it grows up?

strav Updated - 20th Feb

I must say that I am somewhat puzzled by the criticism against Unity as being an "unproductive environment". Sure, the project is in it's infancy, there are a lot of handy customizations missing and perhaps a greater number of bugs that hinder the experience but so far, I find Canonical's efforts to create a more intuitive and to-the-point desktop experience quite satisfying - they back it up with concrete usability tests and do take seriously a well thought criticism. Here, I'd like to sum up some of the changes that this process (partly imputable to gnome 3 features) actually brought to Ubuntu (if possible, I'd really appreciate to know, in all those points, what is it that people ditching Unity for the Gnome 2.0 interface really find more efficient).

1. A unified way of interacting with application indicators (meaning that, on the tray icons, the same actions provide the same responses in every case). Personally I see this a being less prone to trial and error and hence, more efficient.

2. A docker that unifies launchers and launched tasks at the same location. This means that, by knowing your launcher's ordering, you already know where to look for an application you would have launched through it - it makes searching and organizing your applications more easier and effecient (anyone whom have used a proper dock will tell you the same thing).

3. An expose style view of your already launched applications when double clicking on their launcher, giving you a quick visual overview to find that nth terminal you're looking for - which is something very painful if the application you're looking for has the same window title as many others (your really should be using Terminator though wink

.

4. A global search to select and launch rarely used application. Here, if you know the name of the application you're looking for, it's usually faster than menu based access by several key-strokes (although a menu based access can be quicker in some cases).

5. The Hud that bring the same principle of point no.4 to virtually all applications menu. While I'm all for keeping the traditional menus as they are, this feature certainly can speed access to a lot menu entry usually buried at the nth level and for which you might not have memorized the short-cut.

6. A la gnome 3: a task switcher that lets you easily cycle back and forth between grouped applications which can be expanded to find the one you're looking for. This reduces the clutter of having your applications on the same level, reduces the key strokes and is just plain neat to use.

7. A notification osd that's consistent through all applications, giving you one place to look for every notification sent.

Having bound shortcuts to the application panel and the application search, I'm really confident that these features only gave me a more efficient accessibility. Sure, I had to tweak some stuff and I won't say it's all perfect: the global menu is a pain with non-maximized application when you're not certain which one has the focus; the left-side panel, while saving some screen estate, is not natural for a lot of people (myself included) and being able to customize it's position would be really nice but in the end, I think it's pretty clear what Ubuntu is trying to achieve with this Unity thing: a consistent experience and most intuitive interface across all types of devices. Although I'm not convinced that consistency across devices is always compatible with providing the best possible interface in all cases but I'm really glad that Ubuntu had the guts to improve the state of linux desktop by not sticking to any pre-conception about it.

Lastly, I wish to question: who are those "experienced linux users"? More precisely: what is it that an "experienced linux user" would have not to like in a more simple and intuitive desktop experience? I myself am a long time Linux and Emacs users; I do have a sweet spot for shortcuts and the ablity to do something complicated out of few keystrokes (macros!) but I have no difficulties in adopting a more to-the-point interface if there can be one.

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Oy, Vey Not again.

Steve I. 23rd Mar

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