Linux and Open Source

Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols & Paula Rooney

What might come of the OOXML revolt?

By | May 31, 2008, 2:15pm PDT

Summary: How much will it cost to build OOXML-ODF conversion tools through Open Office which are better than those Microsoft itself puts out? On that may hang the question of whether you can read your clients’ documents in two or three years’ time.

OOXMLIt’s late, and in terms of the process it’s hopeless, but the appeals of the ISO vote making Office Open XML (OOXML) an official standard could still have an impact.

Andy Updegrove has been giving great coverage of all this at his Standards Blog, and writes that Brazil appears to be the leader of the movement, having filed multiple times.

The appeals come nearly a month after England’s standards body was taken to court over its support of OOXML, and a week after the European Union launched its own investigation of the matter.

As I noted then Microsoft Office will support the competing, open source ODF format before it supports the final version of OOXML, and this fact is at the heart of the appeal. The company blames changes made by the ISO.

What it means is that as a practical matter there will be two standards for office documents going forward, ODF and OOXML.

It’s hard to see executives in fast-growing companies like India and Brazil jettisoning Open Office once the next Microsoft Office comes out over this issue.

It’s far more likely that, in many countries, both will be supported, with preference given to ODF where the government’s support of open source is strong or a large number of languages have given Open Office significant market share.

What’s most frightening, as Paula noted on May 22, is that Microsoft Office may provide weak support for ODF, making conversions difficult.

How much will it cost to build OOXML-ODF conversion tools through Open Office which are better than those Microsoft itself puts out? On that may hang the question of whether you can read your clients’ documents in two or three years’ time.

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Topics

Dana Blankenhorn has been a business journalist for 30 years, a tech freelancer since 1983.

Disclosure

Dana Blankenhorn

Dana Blankenhorn has been a journalist, writer and part-time futurist for over 30 years.

At the present moment I run only a personal blog in addition to my ZDNet open source blog.

DanaBlankenhorn.Com has the subtitle The War Against Oil. In the past I have used it to write about political history, e-commerce, personal matters, some ideas related to open source, and The World of Always On, which is the idea of using sensors, motes and RFID to turn WiFi links into platforms for applications which live in the air.

My IRA account at Schwab holds a few tech shares, most notably some Intel and Applied Materials, but there are no open source companies in it. I don’t even own any CBS stock.

Biography

Dana Blankenhorn

Dana Blankenhorn has been a business journalist for nearly 25 years and has covered the online world professionally since 1985. He founded the Interactive Age Daily for CMP Media, and has written for the Chicago Tribune, Advertising Age's "NetMarketing" supplement, and dozens of other publications over the years.

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A question about the veiwer for Firefox
neutro511@... 8th Dec 2008
Will this viewer handle the ISO-approved version of OOXML? The version that no one, not even Microsoft, has implemented yet?
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Points, Questions, Answers
bcarpent1228@... 31st May 2008
I hope this discussion does not deteriorate into a name calling debacle. I am interested in the problem - not so much the ethics on Microsoft.

As i see it:
1) Both formats are viable XML standards - ODF is simpler and based more on existing XML standards - OOXML is more complicated but easier for Microsoft to support the existing document base;

2) The existing document base is overwhelmingly MS Office - possibly the reason why the ISO even considered OOXML;

3) Most member objections stem from the ISO committee bypassing the normal rules and procedures.

4) Adoption of two - almost identical - is probably the worst possible solution;

5) Microsoft's OOXML standard will be difficult, if not impossible for open source to implement.

My questions:
Is there any way the ISO can force a compromise single standard?
What is the potential cost to convert the billions of existing documents?
How can the ISO justify a potential disruption to millions of MS Office users?
Can the EU reduce Microsoft fines in exchange for Microsoft bearing the cost of ODF conversion?

Possibly these questions cannot be answered - or will be too biased to provide objective answers - but i think millions of users will suffer if this conflict continues.

And my questions:
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Some Comments
DannyO_0x98 31st May 2008
Your point number 2 is not correct. ISO considered it because
there are fast track paths available to affiliated organizations.
OOXML came up to ISO after Microsoft submitted it to and it
was ratified by ECMA. ECMA also reviewed, ratified, and
presented ODF (submitted by OASIS) to ISO, where it was
approved in 2006.

As to your first question, no. ISO is not an enforcement agency.
Standards are suggestions and vendors implement or not as
they wish. Ultimately, I think it's the marketplace and
customers which drive vendors to use standards.

I'm not sure why the existence of two year old file formats is
disruptive or even inconvenient for Office users. As software to
read and write in those formats is freely available and may be
redistributed by any one, there is no impediment to handling a
file in the ODF formats. If Microsoft wants to be sure that their
customers need only Office, then it should include ODF among
supported file formats, just as they support plain text, rtf,
Office 2003, and WordPerfect formats. Indeed, earlier this week
we saw Microsoft conceding, to some degree, that very point.
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Thank you - maybe MS should bend a little
bcarpent1228@... 31st May 2008
My understanding was MS required OOXML to provide support to existing documents (i know they want OOXML because it is easier for them - more difficult for others)

Would be a shame to have two standards - but it appears there is more EGO than compromise involved.

I think if MS adopted ODF rather than push OOXML this would help their image considerably. With their financial resources MS could handle the cost far better than the cash constrained open source sector.
The cheap excuse that OOXML was changed by the ISO is pure BS. OOXML was previously approved by the ECMA and they don't even support that version.

The fact is that even MS can't implement OOXML. In fact, there isn't a single product in the world that implements even 20% of the bastardized standard.
problems with OOXM (though there are many).

First, the EU is investigating the OOXML vote and procedure at ISO, and MS practices with document formats in general. This is an attempt to head off fines and pretend they are the nice guys.

Second, this will give them to ability to create bastardized support for ODF that will cause problems and confusion for anybody using ODF. Their worst nightmare is a reasonably good translator between ODF / OOXML formats. Note that this is exactly what they did with Java, and they ended up paying Sun almost 2 billion in a settlement. They can afford to pay billions in fines and law suites here too.

Well, you could say that they might also be hedging their bets in case a lot of governments do require ODF, given that many realize what a sham OOXML is.
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You Forget...
wolf_z 1st Jun 2008
Sun sues out both sides of their mouth.

Suite 1: Forbid MS from using Java. Forget the fact MS's java was better adapted to Windows and it was still just as (impossible) to write adequate x-platform with MS Java

Suite 2: Sun sued to have MS *include* Java in windows!
for the dirty tricks with Java. MS made it intentionally bastardized for Windows. Sure the story was "well adapted to Windows", code for make Java incompatible.
...Java on Windows than Sun did. They pulled the wool over a jury's eyes. If Windows developers wanted to create an x-platform Java it took one switch.

Problem was x-platform pure Java (at the time) had performance that stank on ice.

Later Sun filed a *second* lawsuit that basically undid the effects of the first. Go figure. happy

Guess that 95%+ Windows marketshare was important after all. Meaning that WORA (ha!) didn't mean squat...
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According to this article:

http://www.itworld.com/AppDev/306/IW010123hnsunlawsuit/

It was only $20 million. Your figure was off by a factor of 100...
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Try again son
Joeman57 2nd Jun 2008
The settlement that you quote was not for the java mess. The previous story from wolf_z was for the java mess. The one you quote was for other things.

Nice try though.
be easier for MS to support the existing document base with OOXML. That I think is a red herring. MS has doing a lot of posturing about how ODF did not have the features needed, but when pressed, they could not name any. They only talked in generalities about it.

Really, there is no rocket science in document formats. It is a whole lot simpler than what MS wants us to believe. Microsoft NEEDS confusion and interoperability problems to maintain market share. That is it.
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That's a load of crap
AllKnowingAllSeeing 2nd Jun 2008
ODF doesn't include support for many of the advanced features that MSO has that the other Open Doccument office suites can't support.
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which ones?
Mitch 74 2nd Jun 2008
ODF supports macro (in multiple languages), included videos, XML namespaces, vector graphics, math formulas, revisions, shared documents, and it has demonstrated its versatility by being used in OpenOffice.org to store 3D graphics, relational databases and pictures compositions, graceful degradation, backward compatibility with older revisions, accessibility mechanisms, and future improvements.
OOXML has demonstrated... Support for WrapParagraphsLikeWord95? No backward compatibility? No XML validation? Difficulty to support? 150 preset document borders? Redundant specifications (3 different and incompatible, yet similar ways to draw a table) ? Illogical specifications? Making deprecated and limited languages a standard where one superset already exists (VML vs. SVG)?

Please, enlighten me.
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of Office that they SWEAR everyone uses and needs and doesn't exist in ODF. Wheres that Ax guy with the identity management babble thats implemented in a human readable file format.
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Eurotopian waste of time
croberts 31st May 2008
Office 97-XP binary doc was well understood and reverse engineered to the point where open source converters did a great job of using it. Indisputable.

If Microsoft had been approached a little intelligently, I'm sure binary DOC could have been turned into a standard with Microsoft controlling it, sort of like Sun controls Java.

Instead, the millitant open source community with their minority share of the office suite market, decided to hijack office formats from the majority player (Microsoft). Fine, people are entitled to hate MS if they want.

But it is amusing as hell that MS fought back with their own proposed standard, and now the open source community, which is all about "choice", is in the position of insisting that people shouldn't have the right to choose between two open formats.

Ironic.
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Okie dokie
zkiwi Updated - 31st May 2008
Can you point to who has implemented much if anything at all of OXML? Other posters indicate that Microsoft have said they can't because of changes made by the ISO to the standard (which hasn't actually been released as it was supposed to have been within 90 days of ratification). So, now we're told MS Office is going to have ODF before it has OXML. What therefore was the point in them proposing such a lame duck "standard?" Honestly, OXML is about as useful as a dose of the pox.
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oh come now
xuniL_z 2nd Jun 2008
Freddie John. The point was Microsoft was acting as any company in a free society and conducting business in the best interest of their company. The idea this is unique to Microsoft, by you and hundreds of other ms haters on here is just so much ABM blathering.


The OSI process is not supposed to be an overnight affair, thus Microsoft's much more capable standard over ODF needs to meet changes required by the OSI ratification and that will take some time. Just like any good standard should. They want to get the changes right and will end up with the world's most successful document standard.
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Message has been deleted.
fr0thy2 Updated - 2nd Jun 2008
  • Flagged
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End of centralized greed
fr0thy2 3rd Jun 2008
Welcome to the modern world. Let's hope the West is allowed to adapt.
documentation of the format. They would have been happy to continue making undocumented changes to .doc for years, but, Sun came out with a very elegant solution called ODF, and made it completely open. MS wanted nothing to do with open standards and was only forced, kicking and screaming, realizing that governments were going to mandate open standards for government documents. Actually, it would have been much cheaper for MS to have supported ODF, but they have probably spent hundreds of millions on OOXML including all of the lobbying, because they realized that good interoperability would be a big problem. The two standards are a big mess that will cause all sorts of problems, which is what MS wants. Don't try and make us feel sorry for MS!!!!
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If ODF works just as well in OpenOffice.org, will people pay for Office? This is an important question to Microsoft, because Office is their last defensible profit center. Operating systems have become a commodity with the advent of user-friendly Linux (Ubuntu for instance). If OpenOffice becomes 100% compatible with MS Office, consumer, corporations, and countries will go with the free OOo, because of the lower cost. So MS is naturally reluctant to support the truly open standard ODF. [Disclaimer: I am a happy Ubuntu & OOo user. I only use Windows at work, because the company doesn't use Linux.]
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No, they won't . . .
JLHenry 1st Jun 2008
If OpenOffice becomes 100% compatible with MS Office, consumer, corporations, and countries will go with the free OOo, because of the lower cost.

Most larger Corps which buy MS Office do so not for the software itself, but the support services available from MS. That's also one of the main reasons that companies have traditionally stayed with Commercial OS's (Mainly MS). Until recently, there hasn't been that good of a support structure available for Linux/Unix/whatever.

While this is changing, what most larger corps will require in the way of support would still overwhelm most Ditros' support structures currently.

Do I think that MS will continue to rule the roost? No, buuutttt . . . They will still control a majority share of the market for the foreseeable future.
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True - MS Office cheaper and easier
bcarpent1228@... 1st Jun 2008
Almost everyone uses MS Office - and many extensively trained. When a problem occurs you just ask the person next to you - cheap and simple.

Skip the technical judgments, the TCO financials, the complex standards, etc... The average user wants to do their job and communicate with other users - MS Office is the easiest because everyone uses it.
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Fuzzy logic.... fuzzy math......
Ole Man 1st Jun 2008
Ought times ought equals ought, and $200 bucks is still $200 bucks, no matter what Microsoft or "the person next to you" says.

That's what's driving Microsoft wild. They can't compete with free, and they can't kill freedom, the preamble on which the US was formed.
with email and chat. It is also easier to communicate with online packages like Google Docs where you can instantly publish your docs, and also instantly collaborate. So, that leaves the usefulness of an office suit to detailed formatting for printing. And, we print less and less every day.

Also, it should be noted that learning a new office suite is a one time expense, but license payments to MS are forever. Those of us with experience using OpenOffice, find it much easier than MS Office. It is all what you are used to, and there ain't much difference anyway.
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?
TripleII-21189418044173169409978279405827 1st Jun 2008
I set up OO on a sun workstation at work so that users could get W95 support for .doc (when their version of Office failed to open it) because I got sick of people mailing all their docs to me for conversion.

Many of them asked if I could install the same version of Word that my sun box had on their computer. They didn't notice it wasn't Office (not expecting it to be anything except MS), and many just used that version to perform their updates.

Yes yes yes, you use 14,826 macros in every word doc so it won't work for you.

TripleII
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When compared to Office 2007
storm14k Updated - 2nd Jun 2008
I bet alot of people would welcome Open Office for the familiar interface. The fact is that the majority of users do such simple stuff that they wouldn't know the difference. The only people I have found really digging into the guts of office have been consultants that need to wow and dazzle with presentations to hide their milking schemes of poor quality work. I met a developer that couldn't write a simple Java app to interface with a JMS queue to save his life but he could work Word like a vir.... let me not have my post deleted.
either Windows or Office???? It is a joke. And, to top it off, for the majority of Office and Windows sold, you are not eligible for support from MS. The OEMs ONLY get a discount from MS if they also support the products. So, call MS for OS support on the Dell computer, and they will tell you to call Dell. But, most large corporations completely support Windows and Office internally. The individual secretaries, do not call Dell or MS, they call tech support. The idea that there is no support for Linux or OpenOffice is a red herring. Corporations do their own support regardless, and if they don't it, will be Dell, HP, or IBM, NOT MS handling the support.
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Hoping for the sharepoint angle.
TripleII-21189418044173169409978279405827 1st Jun 2008
Office integrates into many IIS capabilities that while not really part of word processing (IM, calendaring, document storage, etc), do integrate with Office. Will this have enough penetration to be the next golden handcuff? Time will tell.

My thoughts are, OOXML, while not officially toast, is not going anywhere. Not with Brazil, India, China (UOF, easily ODF compatibile), SA, whole cities, governments, etc going ODF. Who can/will be compliant since the standard is protested (6 more months delay at least), 2+ years of "maintenance" updates by ISO, etc.

I would bet 60-40 that MS's support will be pretty good. With the ability to replace (API support) their implementation with others, any funny business will just look bad on MS.

TripleII
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I mean anywhere as in "shelved yet still exists" (NT)
TripleII-21189418044173169409978279405827 1st Jun 2008
(NT)
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MS support
balaknair 3rd Jun 2008
"Most larger Corps which buy MS Office do so not for the software itself, but the support services available from MS."

three points
1) MS support services for Office suites are practically nonexistent, and what there is of it rates among the worst(least helpful) there is- consisting mostly of telling you to call the local vendor or "politely" telling you to RTFM. It seems MS doesn't have much money left for tech support after spending so much of it on marketing.
2) Larger corps would know this and have their own in house IT support crew to deal with it.
3) And here I would agree with you(partly), MS is what most of these IT guys would know best, so support for MS would be better in most places than for Linux and FOSS.

"While this is changing, what most larger corps will require in the way of support would still overwhelm most Ditros' support structures currently."
I may be wrong, but isn't Red Hat in this line of business? And I've heard they do a great job at it(just what a good friend who has had occasion to call RH support tells me with his office switching to RHEL).
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It's all closed source threatened by the socialism being forced upon them in IT.

I feel the true freedom, and that is the right to compete with closed or open source will definately prevail, has prevailed for years with open source there in the picture and will continue forever.


Microsoft OS is far from losing enough of it's market, in fact it's growing new market and seeing record profits over the last year and MSO is SO much more than oo.org, it's apples to oranges.


oo.org compares to Microsoft Works, which is also free.


MSO is many levels above oo.org in all around usability and productivity.
It's way more than an office suite now. It's changed with the times.



I also believe "giving" product away is unethical. It's no different than predatory pricing in a market.


It will come to haunt the open source camp.

Way too much IP spread out over many countries and continents for it to ever be one major player. It won't be able to stand a push to monetize it more than any of it is today. so many factors at play when that happens, and it will happen. There is going to be to biggest implosion you've ever witnessed.
"I also believe "giving" product away is unethical. It's no different than predatory pricing in a market."

Believe what you will, but this argument has already been thrown out of Court:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wallace_versus_International_Business_Machines_et_al

"In 2005, Daniel Wallace filed suit against the FSF in Indiana, stating that the GPL, by requiring copies of computer software licensed under it to be made available freely (without legal restriction), and possibly even at no cost, is tantamount to price fixing. In November 2005 the case was dismissed without prejudice, and Wallace filed multiple amended complaints in an effort to satisfy the requirements of an antitrust allegation. His fourth and final amended complaint was dismissed on 20 March 2006, by Judge John Daniel Tinder, and Wallace was ordered to pay the FSF's costs. In its decision to grant the motion to dismiss, the Court ruled that Wallace had failed to allege any antitrust injury on which his claim could be based, since Wallace was obligated to claim not only that he had been injured but also that the market had. The Court instead found that

The GPL encourages, rather than discourages, free competition and the distribution of computer operating systems, the benefits of which directly pass to consumers. These benefits include lower prices, better access and more innovation."


As for the rest of your futile rant, well, whatever.
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ODF backers must have paid a lot to force some anti-US countries to start a hopeless quest of getting rid of an approved standard. Pathetic.
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"Linux zealots"????
Zogg 2nd Jun 2008
What on Earth does Linux have to do with any of this? This discussion is about ODF, which MS has now promised will also be implemented by a future version of Office:

http://government.zdnet.com/?p=3832

The rest of your post is just paranoia; possibly sour grapes too.
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Doesn't take much...
storm14k 2nd Jun 2008
when the company behind the standard can't even implement it for themselves.
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Linux zealots?
mrdt 2nd Jun 2008
This isn't about Linux, it's about document compatibility. I happen to know people that use Open Office on their computers and they are using Windows. I started using OO a few years ago when I was also a Windows user.
I think it is a stretch to accuse those countries as being anti-US just because they bring up valid reasons for appealing.
What's pathetic are your insane allegations.
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Talk about beating a dead horse.
No_Ax_to_Grind 2nd Jun 2008
Some folks simply don't know when to let it go.
but it ain't goin' to happen. Bush also wishes that nobody would protest the war in Iraq. This is not the last of the protests against OOXML, there will be many.
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What part of "Done Deal" is escaping you?
No_Ax_to_Grind 2nd Jun 2008
happy
No BRM-approved standard has ever before been appealed.

It may be a done deal, but, that will never take away the controversy. And, it might be a lame duck standard if enough countries boycott it.
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So what's your point?
markbn 2nd Jun 2008
Why do you care about countries boycotting it? Isn't that good news for you? What are you looking for Donnie? What do you really want? When OOXML was not a standard you attacked it, now that it is one, you still attack it. It has been appealed, fine, life goes on. Very few people will be using ODF/OpenOffice anyway, whether you like or not. Just live with that.
There is NO implementation of OOXML, and not forthcoming. MS would rather you use the current .docx format, thinking it is somehow a standard. You see that way, they can create lots more confusion and a lot more work for others that want to create Office suites that can interchange documents with MS Office.

But, OOXML is in trouble, and the controversy is growing. Whether you like it or not. Just live with that.
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You misunderstand, as usual
markbn 2nd Jun 2008
I never claimed anything about OXML usage compared to ODF. I said that ODF is used by few people (comparatively speaking of course).

Now, I have news for you: as time passes the usage of OXML will increase and leave ODF usage in the dust. Just in the same way the previous binary formats from MS left ODF in the dust. Sorry, just that's the way it is. You can whine, accuse, troll, or just cry, but ODF usage will not be mainstream.

If MS has not implemented completely OXML yet, well, I guess it's just a matter of time. As I said many times, the sad thing is that people prefer to go through all those difficulties to use MS Office, while avoiding the free OO. Just live with that Donnie.
and not talk about all of the problems of OOXML. They would rather that you take their word that it HAS to be this complicated. They would rather that we all think they are saints, only looking out for customers, and that OOXML is not just another dirty trick to prevent interoperability, and create lock-in.

But, at the very least, the controversy will limit the uptake of OOXML, ant it might get banned outright for use in a lot of governments.
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Keep dreaming
markbn 3rd Jun 2008
========
But, at the very least, the controversy will limit the uptake of OOXML,
ant it might get banned outright for use in a lot of governments.
========

Oh I see, that would make you really happy. At last, your life will
make sense then?

========
Well, one thing is for sure. MS would rather that everybody just shut
up and not talk about all of the problems of OOXML.
========

I think you are mixing things up. If there are problems with OOXML
you and others must point them out. However, what does that has to
do with ODF? If ODF sucks, that is not related to problems with
OXML. You somehow want to link problems with OXML with adoption
of ODF. That's hypocritical and stupid and you will not convince
anyone with a minimum of gray matter.

ODF and OXML are now ISO standards and you have to live with the
fact that not only ODF is. Sorry Donnie.
will somehow magically go away. Keep dreaming . . . . .
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On the contrary
markbn 3rd Jun 2008
OXML is now an ISO standard. Yep, there is some controversy that, as I said before is irrelevant for all practical purposes. Rest assured, such controversy will be solved in a way that will not affect OXML status as an ISO standard.

Also, ODF will become less and less used. Except in your delusional world of course. Keep dreaming/deluding yourself.
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Contrary to your contrariness
Ole Man 3rd Jun 2008
OOXML has NOT been implemented as a standard, not even by Microsoft. Fact is Microsoft was able, by hook and/or crook, to railroad it through to be "declared" the standard, and the ambiguous decision is being protested and challenged from all sides (except Microsoft's and yours, of course).

You may now join Zuny, in his world of "IF".
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A question about the veiwer for Firefox
neutro511@... 8th Dec 2008
Will this viewer handle the ISO-approved version of OOXML? The version that no one, not even Microsoft, has implemented yet?

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