Dvorak: IE is a dead albatross

By | April 26, 2006, 5:54am PDT

Every once in a while, John Dvorak hits one out of the park when he posts a rant that actually gets me thinking seriously. In his latest jab at Microsoft, he declares that the best thing the company could do would be to drop Internet explorer like a hot tuber.

My immediate reaction was, "There he goes again…". But as I continued reading his article at PC Magazine, I found myself considering, if not necessarily agreeing with, the logic behind his argument. Dvorak makes the point that no one will stop buying Windows if IE isn’t included. Microsoft, he writes, could save itself huge headaches and eliminate one of the most serious distractions to productivity facing the company if they would get out of the browser game and devote those resources to getting Vista out the door.

"We still have computers, we still need operating systems, and we still need Microsoft Office. Yes, there are alternatives to everything, but the gold standards for all these basics make most of the money, no matter what anyone idealizes to the contrary.

But Microsoft buys the fear. It must have some of the lowest corporate self-esteem for any dominant company in the history of modern business. The company is like the panicky old woman wondering how she lost a penny in her purse while giving exact change in the express line at the grocery store. Hey lady, you are holding things up!" 

Colorful metaphor aside, there are some compelling possibilities raised in Dvorak’s scenario. What would a world where Windows shipped with Firefox and/or Opera as the web browser look like? Would we see less malware and risk to unsuspecting PC users? Or would the vector for badware simply change and target those browsers? It makes for good idle speculation at the very least.

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http://blogs.zdnet.com/Orchant/?page_id=433

Biography

Marc Orchant passed away in 2007. He was an independent consultant who worked with a number of companies in the software industry.

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FOCUS Magazine Interview with Bill Gates 1995
Ole Man 16th Dec 2007
In this interview, Big Bill gets distracted
and reveals his contempt for you, his loyal
customer.

http://www.cantrip.org/nobugs.html

"Microsoft programs are generally bug-free.
If you visit the Microsoft hotline, you'll
literally have to wait weeks if not months
until someone calls in with a bug in one of
our programs. 99.99% of calls turn out to
be user mistakes."

"Microsoft Products are Generally Bug Free"
-- Bill Gates

"There won't be anything we won't say to
people to try and convince them that our way
is the way to go."

Gates: "No, the best way to prepare is to
write programs, and to study
great programs that other people have
written. In my case, I went to the
garbage cans at the Computer Science Center
and I fished out listings of
their operating system."

"We're responsible for the creation of the
PC industry. The whole idea of compatible
machines and lots of software.. that's
something we brought to computing. And so
it's a responsibility for us to make sure
that things like security don't get in the
way of that dream."
0 Votes
+ -
Depends...
rapson 26th Apr 2006
...on if it's just IE that's removed, or the entire underlying rendering engine. That engine is used by other aspects of Windows, so I don't see how MS could remove that functionality. And it's that functionality, not IE, that causes all of the problems. Likewise with WMP, which is simply a shell that calls underlying media functionality which is also used by other aspects.

Simply removing IE would solve nothing beyond eliminating one minor anti-MS criticism (the relatively poor functionality of IE).

Carl Rapson
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Just for the sake of argument...
Mark Miller 26th Apr 2006
...it would eliminate some attack vectors though, since the IE exploits depend on the user doing something with IE (going to an infected/malicious site) before their machine gets attacked. You are right that it won't end infections, because other applications like Outlook or Outlook Express also use those components for HTML e-mails. So all the malicious folks would have to do is get a spamming database and then somehow send out their exploits, or link to them in the e-mail. I don't know where the vulnerabilities are in Outlook/OE, but I can imagine a scenario where an e-mail brings in web content which then infects the machine. I haven't seen this done. To date the only e-mail "exploits" I've seen are trojans via. social engineering.

There used to be problems with Outlook/OE auto-executing an attachment in e-mail (I believe it was a buffer overflow exploit). That security hole was plugged years ago.
0 Votes
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Just more of the same
mdemuth 26th Apr 2006
All browsers have flaws, and the bad guys will target and exploit them. It might take a little more effort to knock over FireFox, but it can and will be done, especially if it had 80%+ of the market.
The main security issue in Windows is not IE, nor ActiveX controls. It is running as Admin. As long as the path of least resistence is to run Windows sessions as Admin, any vulnerability can quickly esclate to a 'highly critical', own the machine situation.
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...an "ID10T" mode in "Windoze"! That would be the default configuration, and the user would have to "Login" as "Admin" in order to change anything! That's a sensible "Fail Safe" idea.
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Dvorak is cute...
indoctrin8ed 26th Apr 2006
...Like a harmless old man buzzed about on Scotch.

Couple things Dvorak (purposely, I believe) omits: Microsoft fought the browser battle not because of the browser, but because it was the first real threat to Microsoft not being able to determine which features are included (bundled) in Windows. If they hadn't protected and defended this, every piece of technology in the OS would come under fire, the browser would be just the beginning. The patent suit was a sleeper patent that was designed to targeted the biggest cash cow; it just so happens to be Microsoft.

Does Dvorak really believe that Microsoft actually felt threatened by Netscape?s browser? Of course not. (Did anyone actually ever pay for a web browser ever? Didn?t think so, that?s why IE is free as it should be). But in mounting a formidable attack on Microsoft, Netscape was the least of their worries. How about Java? Linux? Different story.

Dvorak plays on the notion of finite resources exist for Vista that are being diverted to IE related issues. Common sense suggests that Microsoft has virtually unlimited resources (beginning with over $40 Billon in cash in the bank) in funding to do whatever *can* be done to bring Vista out. The reality is, nothing in IE-camp will stop or even slow down the Vista launch. That?s just silly and fun conjecture, but makes no business sense.

You were right the first time, this was just Dvorak stirring the pot, for our entertainment.
0 Votes
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Pay for a web browser
NetArch. 26th Apr 2006
Well, Netscape used to be free only for non-corporate use prior to version 4, I believe. And Opera famously charged for the full, non-nagware/adware version of Opera up until last late 2004(?).

Admittedly, neither sold very many copies. Even when IBM started shipping Web Explorer (a very nice browser for its day - had a tree-based history list) for free with OS/2 Warp, Netscape still charged for corporate use. It wasn't until MS started shipping Internet Explorer for Windows 95 that Netscape saw the writing on the wall.
0 Votes
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Airlines & Browsers
indoctrin8ed 26th Apr 2006
These two industries make about the same amount of money, and seem to have two options: IE and Firefox (Boeing vs. Airbus).

Less than 1% of Netscapes browsers at any point in time were paid for, that's not even a business model.

Netscape developed Navigator for one purpose - to compliment its backend server products. By giving it away, it trying to do what Microsoft did with DOS in the early PC days - everyone at home got a pirated version, while businesses sucked it up with the OEM or with IBM.

This was just Netscapes way way of getting a client license to their backoffice products. No browser out there had the UI functionality that was needed in a thin client, so they built it themselves. And it could browse the internet too, fancy that.

The only reason Netscape got anywhere was because of the .com wall street frenzy of its day. Look at it now - it's a NetZero competitor now.
0 Votes
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Microsoft came in into the Internet late. They thought it would be a passing fad. They got worried once the early browsers, Netscape in particular, began to get the ability to run "applications".

Netscape was able to run on platforms other than Windows. There is the scary thing for Microsoft! A platform independent development and deployment environment. That is why Microsoft went onto overdrive to bury Netscape. To protect its cash cow.
0 Votes
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Unlimited resources
dmhunter@... 27th Apr 2006
So Microsoft should just hire more people to get the job done? The more complex something is, the more difficult it is to create and maint it. Windows is no different. The more things that Windows tries to incorporate, the more areas there are for errors.

Can Internet Explorer be removed from Windows? I don't know. Should it be? I don't know that either. I do know that people, myself included, are contantly complaining about "bloat" in programs. The more "stuff" that is put into Windows the larger it becomes. That can't be good for Microsoft or it's customers.

What I want is a small, fast, and efficient OS. If Microsoft can make that, I'll be happy to buy it. If they can't, I'll be happy to buy it from someone who can.
0 Votes
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People are not a fungible resource
orange_z 27th Apr 2006
Re-read "The Mythical Man-Day"! Just throwing more people at a problem doesn't make the solution easier in a team effort like this one.

And if Microsoft didn't try to be the One Ring To The Rule Them All, they fear people might figure out that we don't need them.
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Dead, yeah, so what's the point?
matthew.graff@... 26th Apr 2006
IE has been on life support for awhile. If it goes, the hacker squad will just attack the next latest and greatest. Nothing is bulletproof.
0 Votes
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Browser vulnerabilities
indoctrin8ed 26th Apr 2006
Not if the problem is addressed at the core: the OS.

This is one VERY good reason for bundling the browser in the OS. They security models work together. With the user running in a restricted user security mode, the browser, using security features in the OS, can prevent anything from being changed or installed, or even read. This is Vista. A new IE will benefit from this tremendously.

And so will Firefox, so long as it integrates with these features.

Even if Firefox doesn't hook in for maximum benefit to try to keep its codebase as OS agnostic as possible, these Vista enhancements will protect a Firefox exploit from reaching parts of the OS.

But IE will have even more protections afforded than Firefox.

Will this tip the scales to make a Firefox attack more often enticing to hackers because it's easier, even though it has less market share? Time will tell. I'm sure Dvorak will tell us how it went down in his usual post factum brilliance.
0 Votes
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?
tech_ed@... 26th Apr 2006
Windows shipped without IE would sell very few copies...People don't realize that Windows, being the vast majority of installed user base operating systems is fully entrenched in the business environment...And as such, is practically required...a case in point...I am installing a custom application on one of our collaboration servers and it was failing...when I called the application's tech support, they said to make sure IE6 was installed. I did (it was running ie5) and reinstlled the application and lo-and-behold, the application installed without a hitch.
So, IE and it's associated files are required, if not for browsing but it sets a baseline for programmers to program against. The end users don't even come close to being the majority of Window's OS users...It's the vast amount of workers on company purchased desktops that makes up the lions share f windows users. and the vast majority of these companies have standardized on IE, if not for their own intranet functionality, but to interact with outsourced collaboration tools that they are subscribed to.
My company produces many such tools and IE is the recommended browser...use of other browsers is not tested and done at your own risk...
Ed
0 Votes
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Nah
indoctrin8ed 26th Apr 2006
Would a CTO or IS Manager think to himself "Hm, no more versions of IE. I guess we should switch to Linux and Firefox?". I doubt it, unless he's on the fence and wants to eliminate Windows from the enterprise, which is rare. Most IS people don't hate Windows, now that it's stable.

Your points about common code though is well taken though. But these don't apply to the 99.999% of use cases that drive browser market share from public internet browsing, not veritcal intranet application development which there are a dozen options for.
0 Votes
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IE dead
jakevw 26th Apr 2006
Whether or not IE goes away makes no difference to those who write malware. They will always focus on the Big Dog in any endeavor, because they can maximize their efforts and get the most notoriety.
0 Votes
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I must be doing something wrong.
rlgunn@... 26th Apr 2006
What exactly am I missing. I must not be going to the right websites because I have been using IE since Windows 95 was installed on new computers and have never had a problem. Do Firefox, Netscape or Opera make the colors brighter or the words clearer. Maybe I just haven't been going to the right websites to become vunerable to all of these security holes IE is reported to be riddled with. But I guess if IE goes away then all of the hackers will just pack up and go away-since all of the other browsers are fool-proof, right.
0 Votes
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Leave FireFox for smart people!
Parrish_z 26th Apr 2006
If FireFox shipped with every computer instead of IE, hackers and virus-writers would just turn all their efforts against FireFox. As it is, the not-so-bright computer people get the majority of attacks, and we smart people sit back and enjoy our relative anonymity.
0 Votes
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because the feted fox needs IE to function. (try deleting WININET.dll and see how the fox drops dead).

Opera all the way. No dependance on IE, no bullshitting like the fox.
0 Votes
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WININET.dll is not ie
quantumstate 27th Apr 2006
WININET.dll is not part of internet explorer. It is the part of windows that connects to the internet. If you enjoy deleting windows system components from your PC go ahead but if you want to see if firefox works without ie then why don't you just remove internet explorer rather than the rest of your windows installation.
0 Votes
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Wow! I don't know what to say!
einsteintech 26th Apr 2006
I can't believe this. This is the first time in my life I'm seeing the majority of commenters NOT trashing Microsoft.

They all have a point too. If IE went away, then Firefox would be the next major browser? Do you think they have the resources to keep hundreds of millions of users safe? They'd just become the next scapegoat when something goes wrong.

I speak from experience. Today I finally got infected with adware/spyware/virus/trojan whatever. Like 50 of them after 10+ years of being clean. I feel violated, used, etc. But most of all I feel stupid because *I* went against my better judgement. I've been running without a virus scanner, I didn't update to the latest IE7 beta, and on top of it all, I had an open RDP port in my router and a not-so-hard to decipher password.

Is it Microsoft's fault? At first you wanna blame them but it's not their fault. It's mine.

But anyway, like someone else said. MS can't remove the rendering engine. Too many ISV's rely on it. And I don't think Mozilla is up to the task of maintaining the world's most dangerous type of application. It's like friggin patrolling Gaza.
0 Votes
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whoops, clarification
einsteintech 26th Apr 2006
The malware DID come in through IE, not RDP. Sorry I made that unclear. I just was saying what other mistakes were also going on that had me scared.
0 Votes
+ -
MS wiill never dump IE
rshimizu12@... 26th Apr 2006
Microsoft will never dump IE John. IE is central to their extend and embrace domination strategy. Let's remember IE is not w3c compliant. Bill Gates stated during his "Internet memo" that he intended to tie their protocols such as ad VB and .net to IE. Because of this MS can force users and companies to use their products. The problem however is that this perpetuates the problem of procedural attachements (Microsoft's blind spot : http://news.com.com/2010-1071-831385.html ) By doing so MS has created a bunch of security problems. ActiveX is one of the worst offenders. The ironic part is that ActiveX is based on OLE which was origninally invented by IBM in OS/2.
0 Votes
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activex
einsteintech 26th Apr 2006
How is ActiveX any more of a security problem than any other plugin technology? Do you actually know what ActiveX is or are you just believing what you read on ZDNet? Here's a hint, it's not anything like OLE from OS/2.
0 Votes
+ -
In this interview, Big Bill gets distracted
and reveals his contempt for you, his loyal
customer.

http://www.cantrip.org/nobugs.html

"Microsoft programs are generally bug-free.
If you visit the Microsoft hotline, you'll
literally have to wait weeks if not months
until someone calls in with a bug in one of
our programs. 99.99% of calls turn out to
be user mistakes."

"Microsoft Products are Generally Bug Free"
-- Bill Gates

"There won't be anything we won't say to
people to try and convince them that our way
is the way to go."

Gates: "No, the best way to prepare is to
write programs, and to study
great programs that other people have
written. In my case, I went to the
garbage cans at the Computer Science Center
and I fished out listings of
their operating system."

"We're responsible for the creation of the
PC industry. The whole idea of compatible
machines and lots of software.. that's
something we brought to computing. And so
it's a responsibility for us to make sure
that things like security don't get in the
way of that dream."

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