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The Giffords Tragedy and Social Media

By | January 10, 2011, 3:07am PST

Summary: Most everyone in the wake of the Giffords shooting wants to “do the right thing” in their online behavior. But in this instance, social media and tragedy reveal monstrous behavior.

Most everyone in the wake of the Giffords shooting wants to “do the right thing” in their online behavior. But in this instance, social media and tragedy reveal monstrous behavior.

[Editor's note: U.S. congresswoman  Gabrielle Giffords was shot in the head and seriously wounded in a Tucson, Arizona shooting rampage Saturday morning that left six people dead.]

The shooter’s media manifestos are online in lurid detail. Getting to know Loughner is so easy, it feels surreal. Loughner’s social media footprints are easy to find – yet shared almost like social media gluttony.

The Giffords tragedy is also an example of social media at its most confused: we don’t know what to make of the fact that Giffords YouTube channel subscribes to only two people on YouTube – one is Loughner.

Loughner’s primary and secondary YouTube pages are still up. We know his usernames were Classitup10 and Starhitshnaz (used to post one video around various sites). In fact, blogs and news outlets are making a heyday out of posting the killer’s bizarre videos. This results in upping Loughner’s channel and video views into the millions.

His MySpace page was taken down – the “fallenasleep” page, as well as a lesser known, but likely associated page with the same username as his secondary YouTube account, Starhitsnaz.

Of course, screengrabs of the page is readily available. Gizmodo posted screencaps of Loughner’s main MySpace page and disturbing imagery before MySpace’s deletion.

Same thing happened to Loughner’s Facebook page. Few have commented on the bizarre image of his “Info” page – just as only a few have noticed that his primary YouTube account seems to have been altered after he was taken into custody.

But this is the age of real-time social media. People notice. Blogs post records and copies of what was made public.

This isn’t necessarily a bad thing for a public hungry to understand why these awful things happen. Answers to shore up the void of uncertainty, of not knowing how to prevent such horror from recurring.

Social media provides community for strangers, where people can share the thoughts that need sharing. We collectively find ambient intimacy in times of pain.

The coming together social media can provide helps us stay human in the face of inhuman monsters that murder little girls over the ideology of a nation’s flag.

The social media accessibility in this tragedy is like an all-you-can-eat buffet of links, usernames, videos, comments, accusations and more clues – but one where some people don’t know when or how to stop eating.

Media outlets are poring over this stuff, and on Twitter and Facebook there’s always more, and they don’t know when they’re full, like that guy in Monty Python’s Meaning of Life, Mr. Creosote, who shouts at waitstaff in the restaurant to bring him a bucket so he can vomit and resume eating.

There’s sharing links and trying to understand, and then there’s the person who registered a brand new and clearly fake Twitter account for Loughner as “Classitup10″ days after he was apprehended. Or the just-created Blogspot blog under the same name.

Who does something like this, and why?

Or the many Twitter users trying to string along and possibly collect followers Tweeting bait such as, “in the next Tweet I’ll show you his *other* YouTube channel” – a link anyone could find.

Twitter still explodes like Groundhog Day with rumors and finger pointing between the Left and the Right. Social media is a grey area between free speech and threatening behavior.

Sarah Palin’s Facebook “hit list” map with crosshairs on Giffords is still live, open to comments, and shareable as of this posting. Is this using Facebook for willful provocation?

And there’s Mashable posting on their Facebook page not a full day after the horror asking like OMG what does everyone think!!??

Social media social workers said enough at that: notably Arianna O’Dell who called them out saying,

How does Mashable honestly think people are going to respond to that?

It’s terrible! I’m not sure what other response they are looking for.

In this shooting 5 were killed and 17 were injured. People who have husbands, wives, children, siblings, and parents. How do you think they feel right now?

Asking people “Tell us what you think.” Is incredibly distasteful. Instead they should have offered their condolences while explaining the social media angle. No company or blog should use a tragedy in order to get more views. Be tactful for God’s sake.

Sad that it’s come to this. Social media can be, and is, used for astonishing acts of good.

MySpace and Facebook removed the shooter’s pages – we may never know whether it was out of respect, or for investigation.

YouTube keeps the video channels live.

We all want to know what the right thing to do is in light of a tragedy that rocks us to the core.

In the age of online communities, when a criminal leaves a footprint big enough to examine in detail, the choices are less clear. We want to learn to become a better society, one in which these things cannot happen, while everyone remains free.

But how far is too far?

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Topics

Violet Blue is a Forbes Web Celeb, SF Appeal contributor, a high-profile tech personality and one of Wired's Faces of Innovation.

Disclosure

Violet Blue

I am currently freelancing part-time (only) for ReadWriteWeb for their general news blog and their Start (startup tools) channel; this was made in agreement that I would not write about anything that might conflict subjects in my blog (no sex content). I'm under contract to publisher Cleis Press for editing three more books (only) with the topics of women's/couples' erotica. I have been writing and editing books for Cleis Press for ten years on the subjects of erotica and human sexuality (guidebooks). I'm not under exclusive contract anywhere/to anyone/to anything, I have no investments.

Biography

Violet Blue

Violet Blue (tinynibbles.com, @violetblue) is a Forbes Web Celeb, SF Appeal contributor, a high-profile tech personality and one of Wired's Faces of Innovation. She is regarded as the foremost expert in the field of sex and technology, a sex-positive pundit in mainstream media (MacLife, Forbes.com, The Oprah Winfrey Show, others) and is regularly interviewed, quoted and featured prominently by major media outlets (from ABC News to the Wall Street Journal). A published feature writer and columnist, Violet also has many award-winning, best-selling books; her books are featured on Oprah's website. She was the notorious sex columnist for the San Francisco Chronicle. She headlines at conferences ranging from ETech, LeWeb and SXSW: Interactive, to Google Tech Talks at Google, Inc. The London Times named Blue one of the 40 bloggers who really count.
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RE: The Giffords Tragedy and Social Media
Creeping Critter 13th Jan 2011
@athynz A person in her capacity should not be making any "killing" comments at all. This is not the type of person i would ever want running this country.
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Hm, "Cleric Palin calls for...."

Yes, I see what you mean VB.
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Contributr
RE: The Giffords Tragedy and Social Media
Violet Blue 10th Jan 2011
@Nerill - And your comment is at the beginning...
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@violetblue

lol, just prophetic I guess.
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RE: The Giffords Tragedy and Social Media
Pete "athynz" Athens 10th Jan 2011
While I am not a Palin supporter by any means I just have to ask why is everyone so out for her blood right now? It's not like she condoned this act. Also the "crosshairs" thing has been used by the Democratic party as well - I wonder what the fallout would have been if one of their targets had been shot? I also have to wonder why no one saw the warning signs with Jared Loughner - with all of this online evidence someone should have seen something like this coming.

It is a tragic situation all around but right now is not the time to make political attacks.

As for this: When Palin called for the killing of Julian Assange, she's a religious nut that no different from Clerics called for Jihad. There is a difference between Gifford and Assange - Gifford did not give up secrets and information that should have remained private.
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@athynz
What are you talking about? "That should have remained private"??? Says who?
Actually incitement for murder is a crime and Sarah Palin should be in jail for that.
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Says anyone?
John Zern 10th Jan 2011
@kirovs@...
That should have remained private
And why not? Who are you in the grand scheme of things?

You keep things to yourself in order to protect yourself.
Or do you give your opinion of you employers and bosses to everyone, including your employer and bosses.

"but wait! that's-that's-that's different!!"
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RE: The Giffords Tragedy and Social Media
Pete "athynz" Athens 10th Jan 2011
@kirovs@... I say it should stay private - What Assange did was air our dirty laundry... Also can YOU or anyone else prove that Palin was actually involved? No, I didn't think so. Blaming her for that douchebagg Loughner's action is like blaming Ozzy Osborne for the Columbine Massacre... besides it's not like she was the first political figure or a member of the first political party to use crosshairs on their opponents in political rally ads.

I'm not giving her a free pass by any means - IF she is somehow involved then yes she must pay the price. I'm not looking at it through a political lens here, I'm looking at this objectively. Personally I think she's a few bricks short of a load but I'm not here screaming for her head calling her a murderer because of an ill-timed ad.
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@John Zern@...
Why not? Because! If you don't get it- you never gonna get it.
If someone tells dirty secrets to your wife that you shared with him/her- that makes them perhaps bad friends, but not criminals. Sure, this makes you look like an idiot. And certainly not a reason to put them on death row or (even worse) kill them extra judicially, something Palin called for.
@athynz@
You are noone. Same with me. But we have A. Freedom of press. B. We cannot just go and kill people because they makes us look bad. This is the Talebans job. Are you a Taleban? I mean I know Sarah Palin shares a lot with them, but come on, if you are on ZDNET you should know better than that.
As for all the right wing nutcases, I don't think anyone is personally directly involved. But their rhetoric could have helped what happened and has the potential of replicating this.
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Sarah Palin should be in jail for what?
SAStarling 11th Jan 2011
@kirovs@...

As athynz said, the DCCC and the DLC have used crosshairs in their previous campaigns,and war metaphors have been used in time immemorium. And by the way, Loughner was a registered independent, did not vote in 2010, and became obsessed with Ms. Giffords in 2007 - long before Sarah Palin came onto the scene.

You are projecting and giving this lunatic far too much credit. You talk like you think this insane man pays as much attention to politics and news as "normal" people do, but I can guarantee you that lunatics who worship at a shrine will skulls in his backyard, or makes a video of himself dressed as The Grim Reaper burning the American flag, are most likely NOT the type to stay up with current events.

Oh, and you must have missed the emails from a friend of his, calling him an extreme liberal and pot-head. Yeah, a real fan of Palin, indeed. /sarc
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P.S. to Kirovs
SAStarling 11th Jan 2011
@kirovs

P.S. If you're insinuating we must stop all war and fighting metaphors, both in spoken word and symbols, then I demand that the professional left cease and decist in calling conservatives "hostage takers," or else some liberal whackjob might actually be incited to actully TAKE hostages.

And tell POTUS he probably shouldn't say "if they bring a knife to a fight, we bring a gun" or "if they hit us, we hit back twice as hard."

You must be quite disillusioned in your chosen Lightbringer.
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RE: The Giffords Tragedy and Social Media
hiraghm@... 11th Jan 2011
@kirovs@...

Glad to know that don't think your social security number, bank account numbers and credit card numbers should remain private...

Calling for your government to assassinate foreign enemies of the nation who are unreachable by our judicial system is not a call for "murder". "Murder" is the unlawful taking of a life. Are you suggesting that every time a soldier shoots an enemy, it's murder?

We used to hang spies...
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RE: The Giffords Tragedy and Social Media
nickdangerthirdi@... 10th Jan 2011
@athynz I agree its not the time for political attacks, but its the polarization in this country that has brought this on, the fact that right is calling the left socialist, and unamerican, and saying they are trying to ruin the country and the left is just as bad, with the amount of nutjobs in this country it was only a matter of time before someone went off the deep end. But its because of the 24 hour news cycle and the divisive rhetoric from outlets like MSNBC and Fox news that cause this kind of polarization between the 2 sides. The last time we had this much animosity between the 2 parties we had succession and a civil war. What needs to happen is everyone needs to calm the heck down a bit, and rather than pointing fingers and name calling we ALL need to show a little more respect for the other person no matter how wrong we think they might be.
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Thank you
KBot 10th Jan 2011
@nickdangerthirdi@...

You know, so seem to actually take the time to think things over instead of blatent bashing that has no point in a blog.
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RE: The Giffords Tragedy and Social Media
buck-of-elcajon 11th Jan 2011
@nickdangerthirdi@... Has anyone checked to see if this nut has been seeing a spin doctor? In the past a lot of mass killers and psychopathic killers have been under the "care" of a psychiatrist.
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@nickdangerthirdi@...

That might be a valid argument, but one can also argue that we've never had an administration that has made such sweeping changes to this country, and most of the changes have bypassed congress altogether and were done by either Czars, Regulatory Agencies, or Executive Order.

You and others like you act as if the discourse in this country is the only thing that's changed; it's not. Our political system has changed, and some think not for the better.

If you guys really think Sarah Palin has that much power, why do you simultaneously claim that she's ignorant? Just like with Georg Bush, he somehow was smart enough to cause Hurricane Katrina, but too dumb to tie his own shoes.
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RE: The Giffords Tragedy and Social Media
nickdangerthirdi@... 11th Jan 2011
@SAStarling you forgot about roosevelt, he initiated FAR more changes in this country than obama has, also lets not forget that Bush signed 290+ executive orders, and just because the political environment has changed is no reason to go around shooting people whether you like the changes or not.

I am not sure where you are pulling this "you guys think" stuff from as though I am liberal, Because as far as I am concerned the republican party is too liberal for me. I also dont think Sarah Palin has any power at all except over those who are willing to listen to her, considering she is nothing but a fox news commentator now, and not even a political office holder, and to pull out the Bush caused katrina crap is pretty weak too, since I think anyone who blames bush for katrina or 9-11 is just as big a nut job as Beck and Olberman...

the point I am trying to make is we all need to back off a bit, tone down the rhetoric, remember that we are all americans even though we may disagree we dont have to refer to each other as the enemy.
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RE: The Giffords Tragedy and Social Media
partman1969@... Updated - 10th Jan 2011
@athynz
I find it interesting that Obama can before the elections label the opposing party as "enemies" and then after the elections say he can sit down with them and make bipartisan agreements. In other comments he clearly tries to make those with opposing thought as clearly less intelligent than he or those in his party. Fox news (though right wing biased) has been labeled as "dangerous" for the country by Obama. These seem the essence of political attacks from "Our" president. Seems like fuel for hate from the top to me. This same behavior is indicative of Sarah Palin and her choice of words and actions and therefore no better on the right. Thanx aureolin.
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@partman1969@...

Well, yes, but it's OK because he's liberal. It's only wrong when the right does it.
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@partman1969@...
Really one sided argument. You compare Obama's rhetoric to calling for someone to be shot?
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RE: The Giffords Tragedy and Social Media
partman1969@... 10th Jan 2011
@Tommy S. and radleym
I in no way am endorsing the right and actually cannot think of a candidate on the GOP worthy of the highest office in the land. I was only pointing out the quoted comments of our current commander in chief and as someone else reminded me Palin as well, However I dismissed Palin and McCain as Pres. and VP. when I voted Libertarian. Funny thing though Tommy, you yourself point out 2006 as a bad year for the GOP and that is when the Dems took back the Senate and House. I haven't been happy since before 9-11-01 when Bush himself practically destroyed the Republican party. I in no way can endorse the current liberal party and haven't found an alternative to even speak well for the GOP. Oh and it's portray not portrait, the next time you wish to scold me.
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What?
SAStarling 11th Jan 2011
@radleym@...

Who called for somebody to be shot? And I don't just want your opinion; I'd like specific facts to back up that claim, and a direct quote with context, meaning the person really wanted to physically take a gun and kill someone; not just using a political metaphor.

Hell, if we ban all war metaphors and symbols, the entire Marketing profession will die! They have "focus" groups for "target" audiences. What? Are you going to demand that "Target" Stores change their names now?
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@athynz
Be specific - when has the "crosshairs thing" been used by the left?
NOBODY in a democracy should be advocating the death of ANY political opponent.
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Are these crosshairs, or targets
John Zern 10th Jan 2011
http://therealrevo.com/blog/?p=38301

These symbold have been used throughout the years to specify locations, too.

I've seen them before in commercials for things as simple as the location of a car dealership.

I don't think I'm off base here saying that there are probally a lot of far left leaning people out there that don't give a rats a$$ about what happens to the congresswomen, as long as they can use her tragedy against the right in anyway they can.
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RE: The Giffords Tragedy and Social Media
Pete "athynz" Athens 10th Jan 2011
@radleym Here ya go:

http://www.verumserum.com/media/2010/03/DLC-Targeting-map.gif


http://mortgagegrapevine.com/thread/?thread=593868

The second link is the original post

And going beyond crosshairs and targets, here's this little gem...

http://www.binscorner.com/pages/d/death-threats-against-bush-at-protests-i.html

Any other questions?
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RE: The Giffords Tragedy and Social Media
richard.posner@... 10th Jan 2011
@athynz Palin wants to be President. She is fair game and should be fully scrutinized on the issue and her authenticity.
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Scrutiny is one thing
Pete "athynz" Athens 10th Jan 2011
@richard.posner@... but some of these morons are claiming she's involved in this without any proof at all other than a political rally ad with crosshairs or targets on political figures. At this point saying this is Palin's fault is like saying the Beatles are responsible for the murders Charles Manson did... IF she was involved then yes she should be punished accordingly but at this point all we have are some leftist loonies who are calling for her head.
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Joe Biden says Wikileaks cause no damage
HollywoodDog 11th Jan 2011
@athynz ... to the United States. Andrea Mitchell interviewed:

MITCHELL: So there's no damage?

BIDEN: I don't think there's any damage. I don't think there's any substantive damage, no.
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RE: The Giffords Tragedy and Social Media
Pete "athynz" Athens 11th Jan 2011
@HollywoodDog Key words here are "I don't think there's any damage"... like he's going to say that there was damage from Wikileaks.
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@HollywoodDog ... He has made contradictory claims.

Defense secretary Gates said after thorough review, nobody was harmed by the leaks

The idea that people are gonna die because they found out the US and Canada are allies (classified, shhh) is the standard lie they trot out. It's not true. it's a lie
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RE: The Giffords Tragedy and Social Media
Creeping Critter 13th Jan 2011
@athynz A person in her capacity should not be making any "killing" comments at all. This is not the type of person i would ever want running this country.
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How's the KoolAide?
Dorkyman 10th Jan 2011
I guess you haven't noticed yet that Kos had Gifford's name on a chart under crosshairs during the last election? Seems she was too CONSERVATIVE for his liking.

The shooter was a nutjob. Read his rants. His words were strung together without logic.

He took a math class last summer. One of the students blogged that he was a nutjob and sat near the door in case he brought a gun to school one day.

A person who knew him said his politics were very liberal. He said he valued Karl Marx's Manifesto and Hitler's Mein Kampf.

And now you say he was driven by Palin and the Tea Party? Man, what are you smoking?
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Suppose someone created posters
HollywoodDog 11th Jan 2011
@Dorkyman ... depicting Sarah Palin, her husband and each of her kids with sniper scope crosshairs centered between their eyes.

There wouldn't be a peep out of the right, of course. Becasue the marks are not sniper scopes, they're surveyors symbols. And there is no provable link between violent imagery and actual violence, right?
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People So Quick To Jump To Conclusions
cyberslammer2 10th Jan 2011
It was pathetic Saturday, I was in a doctor's office with my wife watching this unfold on CNN, so I did what anyone would, whip the phone out and start checking the online blog sites and see what was being said...

IMMEDIATELY people were saying "Oh, it's a tea partier whack-job", or "It's Palin's fault she had her district in the cross-hairs", or "I bet he was a Bush supporter", etc...before even a single shred of evidence was out on the table.

This is what our society has been reduced to, tabloid journalism and immediately rendering a conclusion before a single fact has crossed the table.
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And How did it Come to This?
mejohnsn 10th Jan 2011
@cyberslammer2

It came to this because the rabid neocon Right has been driving the whole nation in that direction with their unrestrained, incredibly irresponsible mockery of all journalistic principles we see every single day on Faux News -- as well as other outlets.
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RE: The Giffords Tragedy and Social Media
12stringer1975 10th Jan 2011
@mejohnsn
I suppose you consider left-wing tabloid journalism like the Huffington Post and Daily Kos to be "responsible"?
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RE: The Giffords Tragedy and Social Media
ItsTheBottomLine 10th Jan 2011
@mejohnsn How do you know that? Seriously I have yet to red anything even in our fruit cake liberal rag, that the killer had anding to do with the conservative right? I don't get it, it sure looks like a bunch of poor loser liberals found a wagon to jump on because some Jack Wagon said hey - This is because of the Tea Party? Give me a break.
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@DaveDean The difference is none of those sites represent themselves as "Fair and Balanced" or claim to be anything other than liberal.
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RE: The Giffords Tragedy and Social Media
cyberslammer2 10th Jan 2011
@mejohnsn Gee, and I'm sure movies depicting the assassination of President Bush were just fine to put out a few years ago right?
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Rabid neocon right? Check this out.
SAStarling 11th Jan 2011
@mejohnsn

** Obama: ?They Bring a Knife?We Bring a Gun?
** Obama to His Followers: ?Get in Their Faces!?
** Obama on ACORN Mobs: ?I don?t want to quell anger. I think people are right to be angry! I?m angry!?
** Obama to His Mercenary Army: ?Hit Back Twice As Hard?
** Obama on the private sector: ?We talk to these folks? so I know whose ass to kick.?
** Obama to voters: Republican victory would mean ?hand to hand combat?
** Obama to lib supporters: ?It?s time to Fight for it.?
** Obama to Latino supporters: ?Punish your enemies.?
** Obama to democrats: ?I?m itching for a fight.?.
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@mejohnsn

This is an EXACT quote of a commenter in an article in The Hill:

?The Tucson Tea Party will be made to pay for the blood on their hands. An eye for an eye. You want a civil war, you got one. KILL Jesse Kelly for his role, then KILL Sarah Palin, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and Gleen Beck. Whoever puts BULLETS in ther HEADS shall be a NATIONAL HERO.?

Ah, the peaceful, tolerant left. /sarc

The Hill moderators scrubbed the comment, but I have it saved in a screenshot:

http://www.msunderestimated.com/Threats2SPRush%26Glen.jpg

What say you now?
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RE: The Giffords Tragedy and Social Media
nickdangerthirdi@... Updated - 11th Jan 2011
@SAStarling, its crap like that which is the problem, rather than standing up and saying "Look what this guy did was wrong, and isnt representative of what the right believes" or talking about how both sides need to tone it down, you go and find stuff to stir up the pot some more.. and whats best is you found ONE comment, just like the ONE guy who did this, and you are doing exactly what you are are accusing the left of doing, assuming that everyone on the right wants to kills dems, or everyone on the left wants to kill reps... and we both know thats not true..

BOTH sides have gone overboard, BOTH sides need to tone it down, BOTH sides need to realize that what they are doing is part of the cause of this...
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RE: The Giffords Tragedy and Social Media
nickdangerthirdi@... 11th Jan 2011
@mejohnsn dont forget its a 2 way street, Olberman and maddow are just as bad as hannity and beck when it comes to this type of stuff... and dont try playing the "They did it first" stuff because at this point it doesnt matter, both sides should share equal blame..
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RE: The Giffords Tragedy and Social Media
hiraghm@... 11th Jan 2011
@mejohnsn

That's a lie.
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RE: The Giffords Tragedy and Social Media
partman1969@... 10th Jan 2011
@cyberslammer2
And I'm 100% sure it was a liberal whack job when Ronnie got shot!!! Didn't hear this kinda garbage back then but now those same liberals can blame anybody with opposing thought for all their woes.
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RE: The Giffords Tragedy and Social Media
cyberslammer2 10th Jan 2011
@partman1969@... Yes, funny how the shooter lists the Communist Manifesto as one of their books to read among others that lean to the left....
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RE: The Giffords Tragedy and Social Media
nickdangerthirdi@... 10th Jan 2011
@partman1969@... and you dont think that the right deserves any of the blame for the polarization we have now in the country? I have to half agree with cyberslammer on that, but its a two way street, Olberman is just as crazy as Beck, and its people like that which these nutjobs listen too. on the right and LEFT...
rhetoric that comes from the likes of an Olbermann?

Be detailed and specific.
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RE: The Giffords Tragedy and Social Media
nickdangerthirdi@... 11th Jan 2011
@adornoe do you not listen to the malarky olberman spouts? if you dont think he is just as bad as those pundits on faux news, then you are diluting yourself, Even John Stewart think olberman is over the top, and he is about as left winged as they come...

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2010/01/22/stewart-blasts-olbermann-brown-rants-defends-michelle-malkin

Let take this for instance...

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/video-arizona-killing-keith-olbermann-69686

he wants to blame Sarah Palin for this, even though the dems did something very similar, and on top of that they referred to right as the "Enemy"
http://nicedeb.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/dlc-targeting-map.gif?w=397&h=355

WE ARE NOT ENEMIES, we are all Americans, and at a time
when we should instead all look at each other and go "Man the was messed up, maybe we all need to tone it down a bit" but nope, you got Olberman and others pointing the finger at the right.. the fact of the matter is we all need to show a little more respect for the other sides views regardless of whether we agree with them or not. The republicans arent trying to ruin the country, and neither are the dems, both sides are doing what the believe is the best thing for the country, regardless of how right or wrong you think they are.
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because you didn't understand it.

I asked you to explain how Beck could be compared to the rhetoric from "the likes" of an Olbermann.

In that context, I'm defending Beck against your comparison to Olbermann. Get it???

Now, could you please answer the original question again?

What is it about Beck that even remotely compares to the
rhetoric that comes from the likes of an Olbermann?

Be detailed and specific.

If you'd like my take on things, well, I believe that Olbermann is a nutjob, and Beck is a patriot. Now that you understand where I'm coming from, let's have your views on Beck vs Olbermann. How can you even remotely believe that Beck is the same as Olbermann?

Join the conversation!

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ie8 fix