Virtually Speaking

Dan Kusnetzky, Paula Rooney and Ken Hess

Outrageous Comcast updates to customer agreement - all your systems belong to us

By | April 1, 2009, 6:43am PDT

Although this post has appeared on April Fools day, this is no joke.

I hate to admit it, I’m a user of Comcast’s services. I just received an absolutely outrageous notice from Comcast with my bill this month.  In this notice, Comcast claims the right to do the following things:

  • Insert cards or other hardware into customer owned equipment. While I expect they mean a customers cable box, the wording allows them to modify computer hardware attached to their network.
  • Send software and or “downloads” ot the customer equipment. Install, configure, maintain, inspect and upgrade customer equipment. Once again, I suspect the intention is to allow Comcast to touch customer-owned cable boxes, the rights they assert clearly extend to computers attached to their network.

Here’s the actual wording of their assertion:

For Video and Comcast High-Speed Internet (”HSI”) Customers. You agree that by using the Services, you are enabling and authorizing Comcast, its authorized agents and equipment manufacturers to send code updates to the Comcast Equipment and Customer Equipment, including but not limited to <emphasis is mine> cable modems and digital interactive televisions with CableCARDs, at any time it is determined necessary to do so as part of the Services. Such code updates may change, add or remove features or functionality of any such equipment or the Services.

Although maintaining the right to maintain and update their own equipment seems reasonable.  This assertion of rights to inspect, insert hardware and software, etc. into customer’s own computer equipment goes way beyond what’s reasonable. Here’s a pointer to the revised customer services agreement for those of the legal persuasion.

Does this seem as outrageous to you as it does to me?

Comcast, for the record, I don’t authorize you to go searching through my computer equipment, computer software or make any modifications.  I don’t agree to your update to my agreement.

10 AM Update

I spoke with a very nice customer service agent about this agreement.  He pleasantly indicated that the intent of the agreement was that Comcast was asserting the right to update their own equipment and software that manages that equipment.

I pointed out that the wording of that agreement is much more broad.  Comcast is asserting the right to install hardare and software in just about anything attached to their network.

When presented with my concern about the overly broad wording of the change to the customer services agreement and that customers had no way to opt out, the representative said customers always had the ability to take their business to another company.

“My way or the highway” certainly is not a very customer friendly approach to an honest concern about an overly broad assertion of a supplier’s rights.

The pleasant agent did promise to pass along my concerns to their legal department. He also promised that someone would get back to me with their interpretation of their changes to the customer services agreement. I’ll let you know what I learn.  After all, I my just be proudly demonstrating both my ignorance and may stupidity. I think not, but then again, I’ve been wrong before.

3 PM update

Jason, the very pleasant customer service representative from Comcast, called me after he found out who I should call to hear the view of the Comcast legal department.  After my next conference call, I’ll call Comcast’s Legal department and have a nice little chat.

4 PM update

I called the 800 number provided by Jason and found that I was funneled into an answering system that presented a long-winded description the services offered. As one might expect, none of the options were related to my questions.  I’m not a law enforcement officier. I’m not a member of an emergency response team. I’m just a upset customer.  I’ll keep working on this and see what I can turn up during the day tomorrow.

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Daniel Kusnetzky is a distinguished analyst and the founder of the Kusnetzky Group LLC.

Disclosure

Dan Kusnetzky

The Kusnetzky Group LLC is an independent technology industry research firm that focuses on system software, virtualization and cloud computing technology.

Dan's opinions are based upon research, personal experiences and actual use of technology. They are not based upon the relationships the company may or may not have with suppliers, end user organizations, the media, consultants or other analysts.

Dan's research is available on a subscription basis through the Kusnetzky Group LLC. Dan's attendance at industry events or at client meetings may be sponsored by the client. Clients may provide hardware or software for testing prior to the publication of analysis that includes that product. Clients may also provide shirts, jackets, coffee cups, folders, backpacks, pens and other event chotchkies. While nice, these don't effect Dan's opinions or insight about those clients or their products.

Biography

Dan Kusnetzky

Daniel Kusnetzky, Analyst and Founder of Kusnetzky Group LLC, is responsible for research, publications, and operations. Mr. Kusnetzky has been involved with information technology since the late 1970s. Mr. Kusnetzky has been responsible for research operations at the 451 Group; corporate and marketing strategy for Open-Xchange; system software and virtualization research at IDC; and program and product management at Digital Equipment Corporation.; Today, Mr. Kusnetzky focuses on system software, virtualization technology and cloud computing.

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That's actually quite simple
aka_tripleB@... 8th Apr 2009
You have a menu where you can check for an update or send an alert to notify people that there is an update. Both are used in most hardware devices (i.e. Wii, PS3, XBox 360, DSi, ect.) Even software and hardware for your computer are like that. And guide info and channel line up is purely software; you don't need to change any firmware for that.
0 Votes
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Just reply, NO!
kd5auq 1st Apr 2009
One of our local newspaper writers responded to similar tactics from credit card companies by imposing HIS own set of rules on THEIR transactions to his account.
You might try sending a similarly worded notice accepting their terms contingent on their acceptance of YOUR terms (what ever your little heart desires).
Send the Legal Department, a major Consumer Affairs Reporter at a national cable/TV network and Comcast's Chairman an open letter. (And by the way, you've written your next column ...)

Despite their internal interpretation, a COURT looks at "the four corners of the document" and if the text is unambiguous it does not look further. Your interpretation IS correct. In law this is known as an "adhesion contract", i.e., "you're stuck with it--take it or leave it."

Don't kid yourselves, folks, the specific wording is a compromise between a bunch of lawyers wanted and what Customer Relations and Marketing thinks would definitely raise too much ire. No one internally at the Legal Dept will honestly be saying, "It can be interpreted like THAT? We didn't realize!"
Well it will be a cold day in HELL if Comcast thinks they will have unrestricted access to plug stuff into my computer. However I see it like this - and it could be argued - I own my home network, plain and simple. My computer is attached to MY home network, with the cable modem (which I own - and apparently comcast could modify) provides the link to the outside world. Far as I'm concerned and would press with much legal might, they have no authority to step beyond my cable modem. Question being, if they "send code" to my cable modem - are they responsible if I get a brick? How is it proved? Thats the only thing I dont like - Comcast could push arbitrary/degraded firmware to devices remotely, causing them to brick and then say to the cx, its your modem - buy a new one.

Comcast will be getting another letter to me. I wonder if this applies to commerical services? I'm switching off of the residential pipe.
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If they have actually tried to update a consumer's owned equipment. That's like if a person is replacing something on your car and you are paying them to do it: they are responsible if they F up and something breaks, and they have to replace the thing that breaks.... though usually any business that is doing something like that has insurance to pay for the very few occasions where a tech messes up such that something else like a radio or other electrical part gets hosed.
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My only issu then is...
JT82 1st Apr 2009
trying to prove that THEY bricked it. Hell its hard enough trying to get them to recognize that they are having a DHCP or DNS issue - even after i prove it to them. My thoughts are they'll say have a nice day and buy a new one or HEY rent ours for $5 bucks a month....
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That's a legitimate worry
Lerianis 1st Apr 2009
How are you going to prove that their 'update' to the modem broke it if it cooks the modem so bad that you cannot even get it to turn on for the memory to be read?

That's the main reason why I REFUSE these kind of things in an agreement, and will not sign an agreement without blacking out things that I don't agree with, even on legal documents that I sign at a bank if I think they go to far. I tell the people "Fine, you don't want my business then and get up to leave"........ their tune usually changes VERY fast.
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Speaking of bricks...
Jack-Booted EULA 1st Apr 2009
Maybe if enough of their customers tossed bricks thru their storefront or service vehicle windows, they would abstain from this ridiculous behaviour.

:o)
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Don't forget
Jack-Booted EULA 1st Apr 2009
Don't forget to wrap a message around the brick.

:o)
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In honor of Ms. Mona Shaw...
JT82 Updated - 2nd Apr 2009
We all should offer a moment of silence. She DID have the balls to take a hammer to Comcast. happy
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How does Comcrap stay in business???
storm14k 1st Apr 2009
I thought it was just isolated that I had a problem with them and threatened to take my business elsewhere and they happily told me to go right ahead rather than trying to address the problem...which was SQUARELY their fault.

I can't find a person that is happy with Comcrap. They all just HAVE to use their service for whatever reason. Anybody else that can be on anything else already is.
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I expressed my concerns, the company threatened me, I reported them to the Better Business Bureau, still waiting for a response actually, being that it has been within the last week, I am sure it will be a few days.
0 Votes
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you can do something about it by taking it to the legislators.
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In fact for many years the government has been trying to bring more competition into the cable TV market.... but have failed because Comcast has a 'lock' on all the wires and charges unreasonable rates to use their wires.
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It is a government granted monopoly
rpmyers1 1st Apr 2009
Just not federal. All the cities near me have exclusivity contracts with one provider.
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Comcast has a 'lock' on all the wires

"The wires" is the government-granted monopoly for which, incidentally, the taxpayer largely paid.









happy
Dish and Direct are decent alternatives to cablevision. Cricket and hughes net are a decent replacement for DSL or cable modems, albeit a bit more expensive and subject to throttling.
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Between the throttling, the purported covert surveillance (deep packet inspection), and the insane infringement on user rights, Comcast seems more like a Cold War era Soviet intelligence operation than a cable company. I wonder if they are an NSA/HSA front company.
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Can someone address the legal issue?
ron.cleaver@... 1st Apr 2009
I thhought I had to sign a contract to make it legal. When did that change? Can anyone send me a letter telling me I have to stand on one foot because I read their letter?

Sounds like nonsense to me!
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You are agreeing to THEIR "Terms of service" when you sign up for and accept their service. Hidden (buried) waaaaay deep in the fine print are clauses that say that THEY can change the contract ANYTIME they please and "You can't do nothin 'bout it"!

Your only option is to cancel their service (like they care).
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If a "Terms of Service" goes too far
Lerianis 1st Apr 2009
And violates aspects of state or federal law (which these agreements do violate and they KNOW they violate them, they are just hoping that no one will 'push the issue')....... those aspects that violate the state and federal laws are automatically null and void.

These are aspects that would definitely fit into that 'illegal by federal and state law' definition in a lot of states.
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More than stupid?
johnfenjackson@... Updated - 1st Apr 2009
One wonders whether a legal department could actually be that stupid. By that I mean is it a deliberate attempt to sneak something past a lazy customer who doesn't read the contract?

Are there any watchdog organisations in the USA responsible for this area? We have the FSA for Financial Services in the UK and OFTEL for Telecommunications ... but they tend to pass legislation/recommendations 2 years after the last major disaster.
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This is the wonderfull U.S. of A.
kd5auq 1st Apr 2009
To paraphrase comedian Pat Paulsen,
"This is a country of the corporations, by the corporations, and in spite of the people"

He really use to say, "of the people, by the people, and in spite of the people"
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The consumers. Everyone knows that if a business can do that, they will do it, and then whine if they are taken to court "The person in question signed a legal agreement!" and will usually win unless the judge is smart enough to realize "Hey, wait a F'ing minute.... NO ONE reads these legal agreements because they are too long. Case found in favor of the litigant (opposite of defendant)!"

Most judges now ARE getting that smart, except ironically..... at the freaking federal level!
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before they could install hardware on my computer, then I would be legally allowed to shoot them.

So the installing hard into my computer will never happen. When I first got comcast I told to tech not to install any software, I pratically had to remove them from my computer.

The tech said they had not choice, to which I responded the internet is working, and I am NOT aggreeing to the terms and agreement to that software, so if you install and click agree, then you are commiting Perjury.

For some reason he stopped and removed the software, which I made sure all traces of it were gone.
they will skip all the BS and activate your modem via a phone call to their tech support WITHOUT their BS software. I'm no longer their customer, but I've successfully gone this route several times.
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I dont pretend...
JT82 1st Apr 2009
I call them up and tell them i flat out refuse their software because its not necessary and to activate and ungarden wall my modem. They usually do it without issue.
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I don't have to pretend
Linux User 147560 1st Apr 2009
devil
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What's the deal with comcast?
Jack-Booted EULA 1st Apr 2009
My Qwest modem ($5/mo or $60 to buy - I paid the 60 and just passed month 63 :o) is set up and modified with a web browser. I haven't tried others, but mozilla then, now firefox appear to work.

Why would they need to install software?

:o)
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They don't ....
kd5auq 3rd Apr 2009
.... they are just counting on us to be ignorant and accept their "crapware" as "essential" (I assume for added revenue).
That's funny. When cable broadband first became available I had to pretend to have a Windows computer to get them to come out and put in the wiring.











happy
Course any user with a firewall could prevent them from installing software unless they forced it.

As for the legality of the agreement, i wouldnt say it was binding because nothing was signed by the end user. Just paying the bill doesnt mean you agree.. in a courts eyes.

Personally, i think the wording is broad to cover anything without having to specify each device or device type.

As for the go elsewhere... they forget that most cable companies are still defined as monopolies and that kind of talk ( if recorded ) could land them in very hot water.
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I wish that were the case
use_what_works_4_U 1st Apr 2009
The service contract with Comcast explicitly
says they can modify their Terms and
Conditions at any time from the time you start
your service onward.

As for not needing to identify every device, that
argument doesn't hold water. It would be much
simpler to say something to the effect of "any
equipment owned by, supplied by, or leased
from Comcast" but they don't do that. I
consume video (Hulu, Netflix, Apple TV, etc...)
over my Comcast Internet connection on a
regular basis. I am waiting for the day when my
service is interrupted until my next billing cycle
because my streaming choices cause me to go
over the arbitrary 250 GB/month bandwidth cap
that Comcast imposed a little while back. I
tried to cancel my service then, but the next
best option in my area is Verizon DSL which is
not fast enough for my professional needs, let
alone the video streaming I do. If I ever see that
Comcast has pushed past my (personally
owned) router I will sue them. I may lose, but I
will make sure to contact as many news sources
as possible while I walk up the court house
steps.

As for Comcast techs "having no choice but to
install Comcast's software" - bullsh*&
My primary computer is a Mac. When I had my
service set up I configured it myself. That
software they install is just a wizard to
configure your network settings (as far as they
admit). By asserting my Mac knowledge over
that of the tech I got the DNS and DHCP
information and did it myself. Since then I have
installed two different versions of Widows on
my Mac (XP Pro and Vista Ultimate) which, when
booted, essentially auto configured themselves
for the Internet without going through my OS X
to pick up any settings.

They are wording the terms extremely broadly,
and they give you the choice of allowing access
to your personal equipment or taking your
business elsewhere. Period. There is absolutely
no need for this kind of access and to demand
it from a paying customer is simply unconscionable.
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DVR's are not computers
Lerianis 1st Apr 2009
If they meant DVR's, they would SAY DVR's. They mean YOUR COMPUTERS, period! Even after having my boss look over this new agreement, that is the case..... they are trying to say that they can come in a stick ANYTHING they want into your computers.... that isn't right and also, isn't legal.
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DVR's are not computers and...
morales2k 2nd Apr 2009
in a legal wording document such as a terms of service, or user agreement, DVR equipment should be addressed as DVR equipment, if an alias were to be used for such an equipment, it would clearly state it like:

"... DVR equipment from here on referred to as computer ..."

If such wording is absent, then what they really meant, is what is written. This could be a trend started in UK where government is attempting to break into each household through the computer and looking around for god knows what in an attempt to do god knows what.

Since god is the only one who knows what... I hope he helps us on this one...

It would seem that money talks... AGAIN.
Spare me, how else do they update the firmware of your modem, True 2 Way TV, or cable box that you buy with guide info, channel line ups and changes to back end frequencies. Grow Up.
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That's actually quite simple
aka_tripleB@... 8th Apr 2009
You have a menu where you can check for an update or send an alert to notify people that there is an update. Both are used in most hardware devices (i.e. Wii, PS3, XBox 360, DSi, ect.) Even software and hardware for your computer are like that. And guide info and channel line up is purely software; you don't need to change any firmware for that.
This is lawyer standard procedure. Start with the broad boilerplate agreement and whittle it down as people complain. Nothing new here...move along
Thank you for the feedback. I wanted to clarify that the language about computers has been in our agreement for several years. This year we included TV, without a change to the overall wording -- to address the growing availability of tru2way TVs that require CableCards and software upgrades as well other devices, including TVs, set-top boxes and PCs that are using CableCards to receive our video services. There is no intention to open or manipulate computers or TVs within a customer?s home.

Thank you!
Frank Eliason
Comcast
We_Can_Help@cable.comcast.com
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You have another "Sony Root Kit" fiasco on your hands due to poor/mis-information.
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Which is precisely why
use_what_works_4_U 1st Apr 2009
I will be moving my service to another provider as
soon as someone else gets into my
neighborhood. Comcast's history does not
convince me that I should trust them in the least.
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While you're at it...
olePigeon 1st Apr 2009
While you're at it, maybe you can tell your company to stop overselling
its product making my $60/month internet connection completely
useless between 7:30PM and 3:00AM.

Starting at 7:30 and getting worse gradually through the night, my ping
reaches peaks of 3000 ms. Three thousand, that is not a typo.

It's worse than 14.4 dialup.
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Good one
Jack-Booted EULA 1st Apr 2009
If by Comcast Cares, you mean their customer service blows monkey nuts, then yes, I approve of your moniker.

:o)
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And then I'll switch to FIOS, or better yet WiMAX.
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same hee
gertruded 1st Apr 2009
Same here, except I will change as soon as I can. Every month there is a
new problem with the attitude of comcast toward their customers.
0 Votes
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Let me know how that goes.

And yes, I am being an ass here to make a point. Most people do NOT have access to anything but Comcast or one of it's cable competitors (who usually have the SAME AGREEMENTS), so that isn't an option.

Not yet anyway.
Gotta love it when you're stuck with Comcast! happy
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WiMax Works
springerj Updated - 2nd Apr 2009
Here in Portland OR we just got true WiMax (ClearWire) a couple of
months ago. I now get my TV by DirectTV and my internet by WiMax.
Better, cheaper, and more reliable. The WiMax does have some of the
congestion problems around 6PM, but generally it's terrific. It was
wonderful to hand my cable box back to comcast and tell them they'd
had their last rate increase on me. I hate that company. (Unfortunately
Comcast owns most of clearwire so it's really just more monopoly, but it
felt good,)
"After all, I my just be proudly demonstrating both my
ignorance and may stupidity."

You sure aren't demonstrating your proofreading skills.
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Thank the U.S. Goverment!
kcredden2 1st Apr 2009
When presented with my concern about the overly broad wording of the change to the customer services agreement and that customers had no way to opt out, the representative said customers always had the ability to take their business to another company.

Boy what a idea! Take your business elsewhere! Wow!

I'm glad comcast hasn't gotten it's dirty hands into my town. Just think what would our options be. AT&T, or Comcast?

AT&T the one how offered 8mbps DSL, for $25 a month, then switch it to $75 a month the next month.

Yeah I'd love old bait and switch AT&T.

Don't you just love monopolies? Oh and thank the congress and house for accepting enough from AT&T and Comcast to do what ever they want to do.

- Kc

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