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Is privacy dead, or just very confused?

By | March 14, 2009, 8:38am PDT

Summary: Panel: Siva Vaidhyanathan (UVA), Alice Marwick (NYU), Judith Donath (MIT), Danah Boyd (Microsoft) Personal information is a form of currency. Privacy is not a substance. It’s not something you can trade, or give up. People are willing to trade a little bit of privacy for a better user experience. Why would anyone want to use Twitter? Who [...]

Panel: Siva Vaidhyanathan (UVA), Alice Marwick (NYU), Judith Donath (MIT), Danah Boyd (Microsoft)

Personal information is a form of currency. Privacy is not a substance. It’s not something you can trade, or give up. People are willing to trade a little bit of privacy for a better user experience.

Why would anyone want to use Twitter? Who cares what you ate for breakfast?

Is Privacy Dead or Just Very Confused

Marwick says some CEOs say they will not hire people unless they have a Facebook profile. There is social value in taking part in the conversation. If you’re not participating in this conversation, you are missing out. Lots of people also use social media to reach out and get help.

The more information you put out there, the more data is out there for marketers. These are my favorite books on Amazon, my favorite songs on Last.fm, my favorite books on GoodReads, etc.

All of this information is aggregated, and this was not possible 10 years ago. Once you make the info public, should it be available for anyone to use?

Online, history is the equivalent of the body. You have many public “faces” online. With Twitter and Facebook, you have such a huge audience, and you have to form your message very specifically.

How can we start to develop technologies that give ourselves a mirror of ourselves? We also need to figure out to design online spaces so you can tell how private it is, says Donath.

In the 1970s, Americans at every level were deeply concerned about their rights as citizens and consumers. There was a movement to protect personal information from abuse from the state. It’s illegal for the FBI, for example, to share personal information of yours with the NSA without first informing you.

Siva and panel at SxSW Interactive

It’s important to have a historical perspective to see what’s normal. Years ago, no one had privacy. People lived in huts and they knew everything about each other.

Every social context has it’s own flow of information. Your doctor can’t disclose personal information with their best friend. New technologies allows these contexts to flow into each other.

Pro tip: if you put a lot of stuff online, people think you’re actually putting everything online. Then you can hold back and kinda have a private life.

Should the default for information sharing be opt-in or opt-out. Good article in NY Times about that yesterday.

You should be in total control of your online presence. It’s your data, but more and more, companies like Google and Facebook are so overbearing that you feel like they own it.

We need to sit down and make laws and norms that even people with no former knowledge of digital data can know control their data.

We don’t live in a world in which we are immediately faced with living in an environment where if you say something wrong, the government can put you away. But there are many places like that in the world.

The

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Topics

Andrew Mager is a hacker advocate at Spotify in New York City.

Disclosure

Andrew Mager

Andrew Mager works for Spotify.

Biography

Andrew Mager

Andrew Mager is a hacker advocate at Spotify in New York City. Before moving to NY, Andrew worked at SimpleGeo & Ning in San Francisco. Previously, he was an associate technical producer at CBS Interactive. Andrew studied print & electronic journalism at Virginia Tech, where he created a student-run online news publication called Planet Blacksburg.

In 2006, Andrew interned at ESPN in Bristol, CT, working for the Sports Production team doing Javascript and SQL experiments. Prior to that, he worked at the WSLS-TV NBC 10 in Roanoke, VA, as a web intern. In his freshman year of college, Andrew worked at the local ESPN Radio station answering phone calls and writing scripts for the local afternoon talk show.

Follow @mager on Twitter.

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RE: Is privacy dead, or just very confused?
qwiet 18th Mar 2009
I wouldn't trust someone on facebook to handle more than $10 or drive a car. Hiring the zombie idiots is out of the question.
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RE: Is privacy dead or just very confused
gmclean Updated - 14th Mar 2009
Privacy is not a substance. It?s not something you can trade, or give up.
People are willing to trade a little bit of privacy for a better user experience.


A bit contradictory don't you think?

Why would anyone want to use Twitter? Who cares what you ate for breakfast?

my feelings exactly!

Is Privacy Dead or Just Very Confused

?????

All of this information is aggregated, and this was not possible 10 years ago. Once you make the info public, should it be available for anyone to use?

define public...

Online, history is the equivalent of the body. You have many public ?faces? online. With Twitter and Facebook, you have such a huge audience, and you have to form your message very specifically.

why? People who aren't concerned about marketing themselves don't have to do this.

How can we start to develop technologies that give ourselves a mirror of ourselves? We also need to figure out to design online spaces so you can tell how private it is.

It's called a privacy statement..it's not rocket science.

In the 1970s, Americans at every level were deeply concerned about their rights as citizens and consumers. There was a movement to protect personal information from abuse from the state. It?s illegal for the FBI, for example, to share personal information of yours with the NSA without first informing you.

Maybe that was true in the 70's but you can bet they didn't hesitate to share this information after 9/11 because of the cowards in congress.

It?s important to have a historical perspective to see what?s normal. Years ago, no one had privacy. People lived in huts and they knew everything about each other.

Ummm...No.

Every social context has it?s own flow of information. Your doctor can?t disclose personal information with their best friend. New technologies allows these contexts to flow into each other.

WTH are you talking about?

Pro tip: if you put a lot of stuff online, people think you?re actually putting everything online. Then you can hold back and kinda have a private life.

LOL..are you serious?

Should the default for information sharing be opt-in or opt-out. Good article in NY Times about that yesterday.

opt-in clearly. Don't even need to read the NYT to figure that out.

You should be in total control of your online presence. It?s your data, but more and more, companies like Google and Facebook are so overbearing that you feel like they own it.

Actually they all but state in their Terms of Service that they own your data..especially facebook.

We need to sit down and make laws and norms that even people with no former knowledge of digital data can know control their data.

Duh!

We don?t live in a world in which we are immediately faced with living in an environment where if you say something wrong, the government can put you away. But there are many places like that in the world.

On the other hand we're closer to that world than many people think.

The

????????
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I think the author is confused...
T1Oracle 16th Mar 2009
We trade privacy for services, and most services take ownership of the data they collect. As you pointed out it's all in the privacy policy.
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"It?s important to have a historical perspective to see what?s normal."

Sorry, not a big fan of that. I don't believe normals and historicity are very good arguments in ethical debates.
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Privacy is fine.... in your home!
Lerianis 15th Mar 2009
But if you expect to have privacy outside of your home or when your blinds are wide open in your home.... forget it!
The Founding Fathers even specifically said that people are only entitled to 'privacy' in the privacy of their homes or on their property.... not in public.
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Privacy is fine
monei011 Updated - 16th Mar 2009
"The Founding Fathers even specifically said that people are only entitled to 'privacy' in the privacy of their homes or on their property.... not in public." is a very US jurisdiction focussed perspective. The internet does exist outside the US too!!!! I don't subscribe to the US definition on everything, and I bet there are several billion others in the world who would agree with me.
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your wrong
gtakvori 16th Mar 2009
privacy does not begin and end with the home. although the internet goes outside the home, it does not mean that we must be exposed when we surf it. no one has a right to know what you do or where you go on line.

saying that would mean that you think it is fine for the govt. or anyone else to know where you drive to or walk to all the time.

plus when the founding fathers referred to property, they were speaking of large parcels of land typically. we are far from that today in our tiny condos or postage stamp lots where privacy does not exist at all.

i think all of you who are willing to give up privacy and freedom for anything are nuts and deserve to be blamed for the downfall of this nation. i don't need some big brother corporation to tell me where i have been on line at my own home or where i have driven to in my off time and tell me that they don't approve of something i did or said.

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But isn't there a difference
AzuMao 16th Mar 2009
Between someone knowing you drove down to Pizza Hut, and someone telling you you aren't allowed to drive down to Pizza hut?

It sounds like you think these are the same thing.

They aren't.
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I've just written a concise blog about what twitter does to the notion of privacy and what the consequences are; http://relativemusings.blogspot.com

The main issue regarding twitter and privacy is the potential price you may pay for 'openness'. This needn't be the case though. We need to continually remind ourselves how we want the internet to work for us and not become constrained by technology!
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There was not any mention in this post of the grocery store discount cards that track every purchase. It appears that privacy is now just an illusion.
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Don't give up on your privacy issues
bboyce@... 16th Mar 2009
Don't underestimate the analysis power of a large enough database. The very things that make people unique can be related to privacy.

I'd like to believe that we're running our society and business and not under the control of what the computers require.

As for national security, history might show that a lot of dictators used national security issues to reinforce their hold on a population. "Show me your papars!"

Just because "everyone" is doing it doen't make it right. The distinction between real and virtual people/identities is getting very confused.

Privacy is only one of the necessary things to prevent people from abrogating their rights to computers, bad guys and databases.
Anything else is an invasion of my reasonable expectations of privacy. Sometimes things are said in jest and all the parties in attendance know it, but when reported by a 3rd party it can be libelous and distorted and misreported. And that is just one reason nothing I or anyone else does or says should be used without my/their explicit permission, period, ever, by anyone.
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I'm no expert on law, but whatever you say on the net is there for any one to read essentially forever. All posts come with an implied copyright unless explicitly placed in the public domain, BUT few, know, realize, or care. Anyone can quote any of our posts in whole or in part and unless done maliciously there is little economically viable recourse. OTOH if its an idea it's highly unlikely to be original unless it pertains to you directly. But this isn't privacy. Virtually any statement on the web, or social networking site is a public statement and expecting it to be private is not a realistic expectation.

ZDNet can take all of these posts and summarize the ideas, or more correctly, opinions. They can publish the results of that summary. Virtually any business can use that summary.

However I think this is something far deeper than expecting a statement on the net to be private. I do have a reasonable expectation that If I make posts to a number of newsgroups saying like some particular type of networking equipment that some one will not take that data and use it such that I am bombarded by adds for that equipment on nearly every site I visit IOW, targeted advertising.

I view doubleclick as an invasion of privacy with their tracking systems and I find many sites very slow to load, or unavailable due to me blocking them. Even then, every evening I find a few of their cookies when I clean up to system. The same goes for searches. I should have a reasonable expectation that the data from all of my searches will not be combined to form a profile on me for targeted advertising, but I know that is already being done.

Privacy on the Internet? You gotta be kidding!
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So basically
AzuMao Updated - 16th Mar 2009
You should be able to mug your grandma, and she shouldn't be allowed to tell the police that you mugged her?

You should be able to rob a bank, and nobody should be allowed to notice?

You should be able to post child pornography all over ZDNet, and nobody should be allowed to report you for it?

You shouldn't have to take any kind of responsibility for any of your actions, ever?

You should be able to confess in court to a murder, and this shouldn't be held against you?

You should be able to send a letter to the president saying you're holding his daughter hostage, and noone should be allowed to persecute you?

Great idea.. not!
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Not so basically
Qman_z 17th Mar 2009
Please read the posting again. Nowhere is the commission of an actual illegal act mentioned. All of your examples are illegal acts. He was talking about being overheard in a private conversation with friends, not mugging his grandma or robbing a bank!!!
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You are so confused
PZalong 17th Mar 2009
There is a vast difference between regular use of the internet and criminal activity.
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Your living room or the boardroom comes with a reasonable expecatation of privacy. Your backyard...a little less. But that does not give your neighbor the right to use binoculars to get closer looks.

Once telephones left the party line system for private lines, that was protected except by court order (for a specific cause) until the last president ignored that right.

With MySpace and Facebook, etc. Only you should determine who are your tens, hundreds or thousands of "friends" that can access your info.

If you put out information in public, then it is no longer private....duh!
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Hi there
magallanes 16th Mar 2009
My name is John Bonachon, or may be not

I live in California, or in France or in Peru or may be in some other place where i can connect me to a free proxy.

I am a male, or a female or whatever.

Do you want to trade my personal information?, then be my guest.

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Let's just be very honest. Does it really matter what
I think about "Once you make the info public, should
it be available for anyone to use?" If enough people
didn't like it, would there really be any chance of
stemming the tide of data mining and aggregation?
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The illusion of privacy is just that, an illusion. Even before the INTERNET very few of us could really afford to be truly private. Keeping all your skeletons hidden is a daunting and expensive task. Now with the net it's nearly impossible. However, I'm reminded of an old rhyme from my teen years. "Fools names and fools faces are always found in public places." Makes ya wonder about all the people on facebook don't it?
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Was that your excuse for
AzuMao 16th Mar 2009
Dropping out of school?
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RE: Is privacy dead, or just very confused?
heterozygote 16th Mar 2009
I think that, from the casual internet user's perspective, data mining seems unethical. However, I really love free stuff. For example, facebook, t.v., and even blog sites. Ultimately, marketers finance these services with the data they gain. Maybe people should be able to opt-out of marketing. But then, I don't think they should have access to some of the "free" stuff.
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Don't call it "free"
PZalong 17th Mar 2009
Anything that is "free" needs an obvious, bold disclaimer that "free" means marketing and data collection. That would be more fair.
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For all us "old guys" when this was ARPA net, its purpose was to SHARE information. All the embarrassing videos you posted WILL be available to be viewed by 1) your prospective wife/husband 2) employer 3) grandchildren. Any information posted to the net, other than by super encrypted ? single channel secure pipe, will be public knowledge.
If you DON?T want that then DON?T post it to the net, whatever it is.
It is THAT simple.
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Privacy is in the eye of the beholder
Krypton Products 16th Mar 2009
First off, very interesting article! I enjoyed it.

My thoughts:

Social networking can't and doesn't eliminate privacy in everyday life. First hand information posted by a user is freely offered by that user and is thus by definition, "selected". Selected information (like I'm having a sandwich for lunch) isn't generally "private"

I work for a company that makes apple accessories and we sell an iPhone privacy screen. We've done very well so I have to believe that people are still conscious of their privacy.

Just because a person puts "Currently eating Cherrios" on their Twitter, doesn't mean social networking is taking privacy away from our everyday lives, it just means we are willing to share more about ourselves to larger groups of people then we used to and that information is easier to come by.

However, that's mostly looking at it from a user generated content side. From a picture/video sharing perspective, the line becomes much more blurred. If I get blind stinking drunk at a friends house, and I'm a fairly important young person in the Obama administration, and I happen to grab Hillary Clinton's breast (in cardboard cutout form), my friends have every ability to snap a quick photo from a cell phone and upload onto facebook within seconds.

So in some cases, yes, social networking degrades the concept of "privacy" in society to some degree, but I feel this is really more evidence of the fact that information, that isn't private to begin with (such as the said boob grabbing story above), is easier to access. I don't find that to be invasion of privacy, but rather increased access to information.

At the end of the day, information is only "private information" if you think it should be! Some people are just willing to share more than others.

Just my opinion.
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>>The more information you put out there, the more data is out there for marketers.

This is why you need to spend a little time loading these websites with bogus garbage information. Create accounts using a name from the phone book, with someone else's address and a third person's phone number all tied to an annonymized email.

Garbage in...

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just because your voice or data packets travel along lines that are owned by someone else and shared with billions of others, it does not mean that you have no expectation to privacy.

saying such a thing would be like saying that the air that our sound waves travel through when we speak with someone are for all to tune into because we all share the same medium of air.

would it be correct for someone to have a listening device focused on your mouth when you speak with whomever and then to broadcast what you say on the world wide air waves? hey after all you did nothing to try to protect your sound waves like cover yourselves with sound distortion shields or hidge behind a 20inch concrete wall to talk.

any of you who disagree don't deserve the wonderful freedoms that our constituion offers or at least once did until it was torn into shreads by each in every administration and congresional act since its beginning.

your all a bunch of slaves anyway.


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RE: Is privacy dead, or just very confused?
dmhunter@... 16th Mar 2009
You, what's your name?
Where did you come from?
Where are you going?
Well come on, answer the question.
Or do you have something to hide?

I don't tolerate that trash on the street, I don't tolerate it on the web. And it doesn't matter what color clothes the moron is wearing.

My privacy matters to me.

When asked for a name for a free catalog, I usually reply "Cash Sale". When asked what my zip code is I usually tell them 90210. When asked what my sex is, I like to use George Carlins' reply of "Often".

We don't have to answer these idiots honestly. Hell, we don't have to answer them at all. And if you believe they follow the rules spelled out in their terms of service agreement, I've got some land in Florida for you.
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Facebook are "idiots"..
AzuMao 17th Mar 2009
..because they let you input information if you want to?

Your post makes no sense.
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Data mining is alive and well
PZalong 17th Mar 2009
If you want privacy, don't use the internet. In fact, I trust the government more that big corporations, as they don't answer to anyone.

I hate Amazon for their data mining operation. They're on my firewall as "bad-guys" and are completely prohibited from my machine. Google's AdSense in combo with the "Google Desktop" is total privacy invasion, as well as G-Mail, who's ads are based on the content of the e-mail you receive.
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Is as retarded as complaining about your USB port "looking at" your credit card number when you type it in..
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Most people are oblivious about the massive and on-going data collection programs that big and even small companies have.

When the cashier asks for my "discount card" at the food store, I say; "Don't you mean the data collection card?" I get one of two responses, "you're nuts" or "shock and horror" as they're clueless about data collection.
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some CEOs say they will not hire people
dragon@... 17th Mar 2009
unless they have a Facebook profile.

Unbelievable.....

Facebook is just Mental Masturbation!

How about they look at my list of Patents.....

I'm so glade I'm the CEO of a $250,000,000 per year SaaS company.
No wonder America has lost the heart of technical innovation.
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There should be a 'sunset time' for any electronic private information submitted to anyone, no matter what the reason to be to be verifyably removed from any recepient. There is an abundance of information begging for mis-use. What is Google doing with your information? How long do they keep it? At this time any authorities can get a warrent to search, or arrest you just based on your internet activities and/or by your postings. Thay are Public Domain once posted, and therefor the 'expections of privacy' have been surrendered. Why does your satelite TV provider need a phone line connected to it? What information is being 'harvested' [based on a common line with your computer]? Equipment updates are done remotely, if I don't have a line connected there is a $5 fee assessed. When I asked the company tech support why the penalty fee, they launched into a templated sales speech; when asked what information was being 'harvested' they could not or would not say.
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I wouldn't trust someone on facebook to handle more than $10 or drive a car. Hiring the zombie idiots is out of the question.

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