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Jeffrey S. Young

Caveat eBay Emptor

By | April 5, 2006, 2:08pm PDT

Summary: Another Gold Plated Internet Brand Loses Touch With Its Customers

I’m never going to use eBay again.

Now this is no material issue to the billion dollar company, since I’ve only bought a couple of things on it over the life of the company.  The real eBayer in our family is our eldest daughter, a college student on a tight budget with a heightened interest in getting the best deal on everything. But even she agrees that something is rotten in Denmark. Especially with a “feature” called Second Chance, an official eBay method of bid shilling that might not be illegal, It didn’t have to be this way if eBay had kept focusing on its core product, instead of chasing the grail of growth at all costs. but it sure subverts the original promise of the company.

The real issue here is for shareholders. eBay looks like another Internet company—see this musing on Google—that has taken its eyes off a core business by buying Skype to satisfy Wall Street’s  demand for growth at all costs.  My evidence?  A tale of damaged expectations, misleading descriptions, manipulated bids, colluding sellers, meaningless “feedback ratings”, and financial shenanigans, all of which is part of a recent eBay experience.

It all started when I tried to buy a handbag for my wife’s birthday.  She wanted a particular “Prada” one, but since the designer has no store in northern California, we took a look on eBay.  I’ve since realized that even used handbags with this marque cost upwards of a thousand dollars, but I naively assumed that a $300 handbag (palpitations!) on eBay was pricey enough to be legitimate.  When I saw several dozen “authentic” “guaranteed” “brand new” bags, festooned with glowing descriptions and lots of fancy sounding guarantees—stamped metal and lining logos, “controllata” card certificates of authenticity, etc.– all being auctioned by a bevy of “power sellers” and eBay members with hundreds of positive feedback ratings and their own online “stores”, I figured we had found a great source.  After all, eBay, great brand name that it has promoted itself to become, wouldn’t let pirates and scamsters take over their service would they?

So we bid on a bag.  As usual (as counseled by our daughter), nothing much happened until the very last half hour, when one bidder pushed up the bid price until it exceeded our “maximum” (the price we had shared with eBay as our limit.)  We were disappointed, but philosophical.  There were several others on offer after all.  One would be ours.

The next morning I was surprised to find an official email from eBay informing me that although I had lost the auction, the winner had backed out and I now had a “Second Chance” to buy the bag for my bid “limit” amount.  I was a bit nonplussed that what I had thought was a private amount was now being publicly revealed, and I wondered how the buyer could have decided to back out between Sunday night and Monday morning when the email was sent to me, but no matter. I went ahead and agreed to the “Second Chance” deal.  After all, I had been willing to pay that much so what was the problem?

It wasn’t until the handbag arrived a week later that things started to come unraveled.  While the bag was well made, and was of genuine leather, the handle was a mishmash , didn’t match the rest of the bag and signaled a high quality knock­off.  My wife claimed that she knew all along that it was going to be a copy—I was reeling at the price for a fake and wasn’t so easily mollified—and that if the handle had matched she would have kept it.  We returned it.

That was when I started to look a little more closely at the sales environment at eBay.  Here’s my list of problems.

  1. The Second Chance idea is simply a way for sellers to smoke out your maximum bid, then offer to sell you the item at your limit.  An associate bids up the item until you drop out, signaling that your maximum has been reached.  The next day the associate backs out, and eBay offers you the item for your limit price.  This makes the idea that you’re actually able to get a “deal” for anything, a fiction—the best you’ll ever do is pay whatever limit you’ve set.  And it is particularly ironic since eBay makes a big deal out of policing “bid shilling” (what it calls the practice of enlisting a fake bidder to up the price) and then offers an official way to do the same thing…
  2. The profusion of resellers of fake luxury goods makes eBay more like a Chinese side  street market than an American flea market.  Worse, because you have no way to know that the picture of the item has anything to do with the thing you’ll eventually receive, it is actually worse.  At least in a market you can handle the goods before buying them.You also have to read every word of the return policy carefully—many “power sellers” say that all sales are final. In this case if what you receive isn’t what you thought was described, there is very little recourse.  While this is a tough issue, eBay needs to police itself somehow.
  3. There is massive collusion among sellers.  After I returned the original bag, I started looking carefully at other sellers.  It was then that I realized that there was another “power seller” with the same picture, very similar description, same shipping charges, and similar price operating out of the same mid-sized Oregon town.  This seemed too coincidental to be chance alone at work, especially since the two of them were the only sellers in the eBay world with this particular handbag.  Was one of their associates also the bidder against me in the auction? Who knows…eBay should be able to figure it out if they put some of the brilliant guys who keep Skype alive on the issue.
  4. The “feedback” ratings are meaningless.  My daughter explained to me that if you try to say something negative about a seller, they simply threaten to post nasty comments about you in return, thus tarnishing your “rating” and ensuring that you’ll never get your money back.  This is why there are so few negative comments.  Essentially eBay pretends to be a buyer friendly place, but in actuality it is skewed to the sellers.  This is probably good for business—since people who sell lots of things on the service generate the most profits—but it is ultimately going to be bad for eBay as more and more buyers give up on this unfriendly, unpoliced environment.
  5. PayPal, while providing some assurance that a completely fraudulent transaction can be rescinded, is playing the “float” in a way that might be expected from an old-line bank, not from a new-generation Internet financial institution.  Within minutes of my agreement to take the Second Chance offer, I noticed that the money was electronically sucked out of my bank account.  However, the transaction was not officially completed (i.e. money credited to the seller as evidenced by an email) for two days, or 48 hours.  PayPal charged me a fee, and used my money for 48 hours.  Nothing illegal about this, just another example of a customer-last attitude that augurs danger for the future of eBay.

So, enough of this screed.  Many of you are probably whispering "Caveat Emptor" under your breath.  I agree.  And I’ll be much more caveat in the future.  The sad thing is that a great idea, which was well implemented at first, has degenerated into another den of human venality where the honest citizen has no chance against the sharpies and the scamsters. 

But it didn’t have to be this way if eBay had kept focusing on its core product, instead of chasing the grail of growth at all costs.  I won’t be shopping at eBay again.

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Biography

Jeffrey S. Young is the author of two books about Steve Jobs--iCon Steve Jobs and Steve Jobs The Journey is the Reward--as well as several others about science and technology. Along the way, Young has worked and written for many magazines and newspapers, including Forbes, Wired, The Hollywood Reporter, MacWorld, Esquire, and the San Jose Mercury News. He currently tends a small vineyard in Northern California.

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2nd chance scam
rgamez48 5th Jan 2007
I think employees are scamming. I was offered a second chance and paid $340.00 for a vcr. Never got the vcr and eBay says they never sent the second chance offer. The e-mail had their letter head logos etc., my bid amount, which was far less than the winning bid, my personal information: credit card type, e-mail address etc., work and home phone etc. I "wired" the $ for the sale which was covered by a supposed eBay security bond. On and on. Total rip off with PayPal charging me $24.00 to get my money from a $150.00 sale! rgamez48@yahoo.com
I guess we all figured it was just a matter of time before this happened, who knows maybe it happened awhile ago. I too have not been to their site for about 2.5 yrs but mine was a good experience. Matter of factly, just today I recv'd my second purchase, some greatly reduced, I'll beleive it when the activation code works software. IT WORKS! WAH, they didn't gety their 1000% markup, I'm sure they did fine thru the bubble and they're still here so I don't feel bad about it in the least. That's coming from an out of work COBOL coder back in school for web design papers. Can you guess the look pretty software I got? Sweet!(it is really just marked up 25 times my amount)

e-bay: the legal world-wide black market j/k
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Its your own fault
Roger Ramjet 6th Apr 2006
Knockoffs are to be found everywhere - not just eBay. A handbag SHOULD cost less than a hundred bucks - but STUPID people are entranced by "designer" labels that inflate the price 1000%+. THis makes knockoffs a reality that you cannot escape.

I do see your point about bid shilling. It hasn't happened to me *yet*, but I agree that it looks like a big problem. This HAS to be in response to bid "snipers" which don't do ANY bidding until a few minutes left in the auction. This forces EVERYONE to do it - I usually wait until 30 seconds to go, and have my bid already keyed in.
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There are a lot of problems with ebay. The biggest problem is that since it is the seller that pays them, their policies heavily favor sellers.

I don't understand why people complain about snipers. If you understand proxy bidding, then snipers are irrelevant. You bid your maximum and sit back and wait till the auction ends. If someone 'snipes' your, so what? They were willing to pay more for the item. If you really were willing to pay a bit more, then you should have done that from the start. Getting into a bidding war is plain stupid. That is why you often see people buying goods for more than retail.

You should not be afraid to leave negative feedback. You should also be smart and read feedbacks before doing business with anyone. You can read the feedback and figure out who are the real scum and who has recieved retalitory negative feedback.

Counterfeit goods are a problem. What is even worse is that some sellers pretend to be ignorant to the counterfeit status of the good. The two most common phrases that should send up a red flag is 'recieved as a gift' and 'purchased at an estate auction'. The seller thinks they can hide behind those words. Even when you tell them the goods are counterfeit, sometimes it is very obvious, they don't care. Ebay also doesn't act quickly when made aware of the counterfeit goods.

Second chance is sketchy. It is ebay trying to make more money. They don't want to enforce their deadbeat bidder policy, so they try to appease the seller by providing a way to still sell their item. It is also their way of stopping folks from setting unrealistic reserves strictly to get a list of people interested in their item and then selling it off of ebay. Ebay makes no money off of those transactions, so this is their way to keep that money.
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the offer would go to the next lower bidder at the bid price which would have existed if the winning bidder had never bid at all. It would not go to the buyer's maximum bid.
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I do exactly the same thing.
kiddpeat 7th Apr 2006
20-30 seconds before it ends, I submit my bid. Bidding earlier just drives up the price. Also, even I don't have time for a second bid if I bid too low.
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two ways to bid
ralphrides 7th Apr 2006
Hi, ebay can be good if used properly.
One way is to just bid your maximium offer when you see the item and forget about it. If you win you win if not so what.
The other is to do the wait to the last minute bid BS or use a bid service to do it for you. I would only recommend this if you are on a budget and have to have that item.
If the price is too good to be true, beware, it is.
Also, I have found that all my 100 or so purchases the photos matched the item sent. It has been said that the same item may be sold by the same person or store under different names. Its just business and a cheap way for a seller to do multiple listings. When you see this, it may not be a scam but the seller has a business selling many of this item. If it looks this way, and you do not win a bid, mark the seller as a favorite seller and see if the same item comes up for sale later in the month.
When paypal was its own company it was very risky for a buyer to get his/her money back, but now that ebay bought it, its much safer. Also only link a credit card to the paypal account never a bank account. This way you as a buyer have a second recourse should a seller try to cheat you, through your credit card.

One more thing, the majority of the risk is on the buyer since the seller usually will not ship until payment is received, but the credit card rules favor the buyer. So its a draw in reality.
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eBay and Paypal both fail the test
russellphoto_z 6th Apr 2006
While you will hear, "It's your own fault." and then hear "You have to do your research.", both comments are bogus.

As you stated you do your research and find out what is going on with the vendor by checking out the "feedbacks" they have received.

As our author stated, the sellers use the feedback data to keep you in line. I had the audacity to comment negatively about a vendor that took longer than normal to send me what I had purchased (paid via PayPal so he had my money). After he ignored several of my email messages, I finally got a reply that the item was on it's way. When I posted my negative comment, I got one immediately back that I was an "extremely anxious customer".

The so-called mediation is a joke. It comes down to you agree to have your comment removed and he'll do the same for you. So much for customer satisfaction.

As with our author, I also have a son who has just started to use eBay. One purchase, a laptop took us both over the edge. We bought an Alienware laptop, paid for it (no great savings here, a reasonable price paid) and in return got a box with a broken VCR and a book. EBAY DID NOTHING, PayPal paid the $200 they are limited by (oh, minus the $25 "handling" fee for getting you that money they so graciously provide) and that was it.

The bank that we used to use, claim they protect your account against fraud, but that DOES NOT include a vendor who sends you bogus merchandise. It applies only to someone stealing your identity and using your card without your permission.

So there is a big lesson learned. Use your VISA, MC, Discover and dump the debit card if you continue to use PayPal. All of those cards have a means to get you your money back if someone perpetrates real FRAUD by sending you different merchandise than what you ordered/purchased (check with your card holder for the terms of that coverage and the amounts).

I still purchase from eBay from time to time. But it is for smaller items and it is less than the PayPal amount. AND I NEVER use my debit card for anything online and I am limiting the use of it for normal purchases as well. Too many companies keeping that data in a database (though you don't know it) and their security sucks.

Caveat Emptor? BS -- there should be federal legislation that would STOP these freaks from destroying what could be a good thing.

Russell
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Credit cards are not really any protection. . . I bought some DVD's for my wife from a crook, and when I didn't get them complained to the credit card company that I used for paying paypal, and they said that PayPal wasn't the seller, only an Agent for the seller, and they couldn't do anything. The person really was a crook as they scamed several people out of thousands of dollars. They had good feedback, but when you looked at individual items they were all purchases of 1 or 2 dollars, then when they had a positive feedback of 500 or so, they got everyone for thousands and disappeared. The RCMP was investigating them but don't think they were ever caught...so Don't depend on your CC to cover your donkey (so to speak) they paid paypal and they want theirs, and when you don't pay, you get a ding on your credit rating.
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...or Canadian laws are different (you mentioned the RCMP).

My credit card company has done wonders for me on eBay/PayPal. They've protected me against fraudulent transactions that have gone as high as hundreds of dollars. The only caveat is that I have to allow PayPal time to do their due dilegence in investigating the scumbag who's doing the bogus auctioneering. I also have to keep track of the 60 day period I have from the date of payment that the card company gives in filing a claim. So timing IS everything, but as long as I keep track of things, my CC company has come through those few times I've needed them to.

In my years using eBay, I've only had a handful of deals that have soured so badly. Two or three times the auctions involved the physical sending of money or money order, with zero hopes of ever recovering those funds again. The rest have involved payments via PayPal and my credit card company, which has saved my bacon enough times that I have no problem returning to eBay as a buyer at any time. Certainly I feel better about using my CC through PayPal than sending a mega dollar money order, though in either case, caution is still required in evaluating the prospective seller. Because of feedback fraud, reviewing feedback comments is critical, and rarely do I ever show 'my hand' (the true amount I'm willing to spend) before the last 1/2 hour prior to the auction's close. And asking questions of the seller (without revealing my email address) is also a good way of feeling out the legitimacy of the other party, though I admit it still relies a lot on instinct and gut feel. But so far, it's worked pretty safely for me.

Well, just as long as the seller accepts credit cards through PayPal, that is...
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I agree with the original poster. I wouldn't give E-bay a second chance any more than I would give an abusive partner a chance to hit me again. Caveat Emptor is Empty. the seller/E-bay has much more experience than most buyers and they are much better at circumventing the "research" that any buyer can manage with the little that is available to them. POLICE with a big club is what is needed (sarcasm) to stop these crooks.
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Why are you surprised?
brucegil@... 7th Apr 2006
I've known from the very beginning that eBay had a high potential for deception, theft, etc. Greed, on the part of the seller -- and the buyer, will cause problems every time.
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It sounds like this guy is saying it is the buyer's fault for trusting someone to be an honest seller. Unless you assume a seller is a crook then, if you get cheated, you are blamed for being naive or an uninformed consumer so it is ok to be deceiptful if you are a seller but not ok to trust someone at their word (how would you know if someone is lying if you are not an expert in computers or electronics or fashion or almost anything). Sellers rely on the fact that you don't have time to research everything you buy to be the so called 'informed consumer'.

I guess the only thing you can do is assume all sellers are crooks, only out there to cheat you, and spend a lot of time researching everything you want before you buy it (even a $10 item).

It would be nice to be able to trust people. There are honest people out there but why take the chance of getting ripped off and just don't trust anybody. What a pessimistic world we live in. Can that be changed?
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Caveat eBay Emptor
CodeBubba 7th Apr 2006
Hmm... well, sorry to hear you had such a problem buying that "knock off" bag. I guess even eBay isn't immune to some criminal activity.

I've bought a number of things (and sold a couple of things) on eBay the last couple of years. I've been very pleased with it - I've always gotten the items I bought and the folks I sent my items always seem pleased. I guess you just have to be careful anyway. My eBay (and PayPal) experience is completely positive.

Would I buy a car through eBay? No ... but $300 used computers and stuff - sure; it's worked fine.

-CB wink
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It is due to your ingenuity!
AndesEbla 7th Apr 2006
Do you think such "company" was to trust? Be realistic!
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eBay works well, just be careful
hygold 7th Apr 2006
I have made over 150 purchases over 4 years on eBay, all paid via PayPal, without problems. The most expensive items, around $400-$600, included a Dyson vacuum, Sony digital camera, luggage, Dell monitor. But you have to be careful.

ALWAYS PAY WITH A CREDIT CARD. I don't want anyone dipping into my checking account for any reason.

CHECK FEEDBACK. Lots of especially electronic stuff comes from China, has little or no feedback and lots of ????????. FUGGEDABOUTIT. But I've ordered direct from Hong Kong with no problems. I believe that most large sellers with 4-figure feedbacks over 98% would be very reluctant to risk a negative comment. Also, look at items previously sold. Don't purchase a $500 item from a seller whose positives were gained selling $10 bric-a-brak. Could be a scam. Report it.

FOLLOW FUTURE FEEDBACK. A dealer may offer, say, 10 units of the same GPS. Follow his listings for a couple of weeks, then look at the feedback; are the purchasers who bought your item happy with their purchases?

LUXURY GOODS are an invitation to fraud. I purchase used ham radio gear, Nicorettes, new electronic parts, moderately priced shoes, stuff that usually isn't counterfeited. Also, when a $2000 computer is being offered for a very low price, and the feedback is 5 or 10, assume something's wrong here.

SHIPPING in general runs from fast to very fast. When it takes two weeks for an item to arrive, it's usually the USPS fault, although they've gotten better over the years.


NEVER PURCHASE WITHOUT KNOWING THE SHIPPING PRICE. Sometimes there's a 99 cent item with a $10.00 shipping tag. That's how the money is made. Always consider total price including shipping.

THE ODDS GENERALLY ARE IN YOUR FAVOR. If you make 100 purchases and one or two go sour, figure that on average, you've saved money.

Legitimate sellers who have built a good record have too much to lose from dissatisfied customers. There will always be fraud. You just have to be careful.

Hy Gold
Trenton, NJ
April 7, 2006
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Thanks for the warning
QLeaper 7th Apr 2006
I've considered using eBay at different points in the past and didn't. Now I'm glad I haven't and I'll steer clear in the future.

Thanks for the warning

Michael
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It ain't necessarily so..
rabscuttle 7th Apr 2006
Not all second chances are bogus. I sell regularly on ebay, and if I have two items I offer the second to the highest losing bidder - to everyone's advantage. And all my 100% record is genuine from satisfied customers. The baddies are still in the minority - so far.
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How are you going to convince us?
jsargent 7th Apr 2006
OK....that's what you do. How do I tell one Joe from another? Well done!

Minority? How much is a minority?
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Proof of the point
JFD93 7th Apr 2006
You just proved his point, you admit to using the second chance, never mind that it tells you the maximum amount the person will pay, hum! who's really the problem in this equation... You can't trust what you can't see or put your hands on that's why E-Bay is Bull, I only used it once, and would never use it given the chance to buy from a reputable source, if I can't put my hands on their throat, then I don't buy from them!!!!!
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WHAT_????
johnmcmullan7@... 9th Apr 2006
A REAL GOOD WALK-A-ROUND ANSWER TO (PHISHING OUT
THE 2ND HIGHEST BIDDER)BUT BEING A REGULAR SELLER
ON EBAY YOU SHOULD KNOW THAT EBAY OFFERS AN AUCTION WITH A QUANITY OPTION!!!
ALSO IF YOU ARE WONDERING WHY I PICKED YOU? BE- CAUSE I TOO HAVE BEEN SCAMMED(ON EBAY)&(BY EBAY)
AND THEIR ANSWERS AND REPLIES TO MY QUESTIONS (WERE A LOT LIKE YOUR'S)
PS>>>(WHAT ARE )BADDIES?????
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No more eBay
drnoel 7th Apr 2006
I stopped using eBay two years ago, both buying and selling. It's a joke and offensive to legitimate buyers and sellers. The feedback system shouldn't even be there because it doesn't give a true indication of a lot of things. The rates are off the wall. I have to admit, I would love to have a business that is all profit and no loss, but I don't think that I could do that, because I would also feel some responsiblity for my actions. The same is true with PayPal, I don't use them anymore either. Oh well, the little fish in the pond. Until there are many more fish in the pond that feel this way, I wouldn't expect eBay or PayPal to change their ways.
Funny thing is, eBay has actually helped my shopping. I may occasionally go to the eBay site to check prices, but I have found that after doing this I can find the items I am looking for at the same or even cheaper prices, at legitimate dealers. This does take a little more effort, but it eliminates a lot of the risks.
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ebay's time is long past
gmerin 7th Apr 2006
You echo my reasons for swearing off ebay also. I've had more sucess and satisfaction buying goods on the side streets of NY than on ebay. although ebay and paypal appear to offer enhanced protections for the customer, my experiences have been that their performance is structured such that the customer becomes swamped in a Catch-22 situation where paypal and ebay's provisions are mutually exclusive.
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Ebay rip offs (?)
LostAgain 7th Apr 2006
I've also noticed that about second chances now it helps explain why. But I've decided to limit my dealings with ebay and paypal since I;ve bought stuff and they decided to drop the seller after I've paid. Guess where the money is.... paypal, the seller ? I know it is no longer in my pocket and try to get it back with the paypal warranty -- good luck. Then shipping lately has gone from pretty good to rotten..... Brick Malls here I come.
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Auction Sniping
ve3sy 7th Apr 2006
Like one of the other posts, I do not bid until that last 10 seconds and then I bid the maximum I am prepared to pay. Check out auctionsnipe dot com. I have used them for several years and find it resolves a lot of the shill bidding.
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Food for thought
danAj 7th Apr 2006
I haven't bought anything on ebay for a while,simply bc I've always felt that the experience was too good to be true,their had to be some things going on that would be cause for one to exercise caution when buying things on ebay.
I believe these issues are serious enough for ebay/paypal to address as they could do serious damage to ebay's reputation.

As for me, the article has created enough doubt in my mind, enough for me to look even more closely at ebay b4 I do any buying.
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eBay
dart50 7th Apr 2006
You are absolutely correct. I got ripped off 3 times straight and ended up with nada but progressively sick and sinking feelings after having purchased those items on eBay.

I do concede that I had bought several items before these negative experiences with little to no problems.

Anyway, I next made sure it would never happen again by avoiding making any further purchases at eBay.
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Have you ever tried drop.com ?
chicagomark71 20th Oct 2006
I used to sell on eBay in its early days, but now they have so many fees. So I started using drop.com. Its an online community where buyers and sellers use virtual clearance racks to sell goods. They also have a thing where both parties submit feedback before it goes public to keep from retaliatory feedback. Oh, and the best part, drop.com is FREE!! happy
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I'm impressed!
tasmanian_devil 9th Nov 2006
Wow, this is a nice site. Very very interesting business model. Instead of prices going up, they fall... buy before someone else does. When you think about it, its a whole lot more intuitive - exactly like any other retail store that puts an item up on sale. I bought a couple of items off it already. Going to put a couple of items up on sale too, just to test the waters.

This is definitely something to watch out for.
There is fraud everywhere, from online to everyday brick and mortar stores. For example, I bought a $300.00 camera from Walmart a couple of weeks ago- I got it home and the box had obviously been opened, half the parts were missing and the camera was broken. I definitely bought a returned camera. I was very mad and then had to return it and go through the hassle of all that.
My point is fraud happens everywhere, everyday. The truth really is that you have to pay attention.
If you want a deal, buy on ebay but check the seller out thoroughly- not all feedback is scammed-
I buy and sell on ebay all the time with close to 600 feedbacks, and I can honestly say that I have gotten scammed about 2 times. Once the item never showed up and I complained and the seller disappeared. The other time, the seller sold me something I found out later i could have gotten for free.
It happens, but if you're buying something that is so unbeleiveably low you can't imagine it- be wary. and use common sense- if it doesn't sound reasonable- walk away from it.
I do think there are people out to scam using ebay, and I wish ebay would crack down harder on them- it makes the rest of us sellers look bad.
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IT'S SO FUNNY!!!
johnmcmullan7@... 9th Apr 2006
PLEASE REPLY!! IN YOUR WALLMART DISCREPTION OF A
SCAM. YOU MENTION THAT THE BOX HAD OBVIOUSLY BEEN OPENED,AND ONLY NOTICED AFTER YOU GOT HOME!!
EVEN IN YOUR POST YOU SAY(YOU HAVE TO PAY ATTENT-
ION)YOU ARE RIGHT!!(THERE ARE ALWAYS GOING TO BE GREEDY PEOPLE OUT THERE THAT WILL USE ANY MEANS
INCLUDING EBAY TO QUENCH THEIR THURST) MY POINT IS!! EBAY WILL DO NOTHING TO SCAMERS THAT MAKE THEM MONEY!!(FACT)I PUT A COMPLAINT IN TO EBAY ABOUT A SELLER. THEIR RESPONCE TO ME WAS (EBAY CAN NOT BE RESPONSIBLE FOR QUALITY OF THE ITEM
YOU RECIEVED)ISSUES LIKE THIS ARE USUALY WORKED
OUT BETWEEN BUYER & SELLER!!WELL WE ALL KNOW WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WE CONTACT THE SELLER????????
IT WAS A P4 SKT.478PROCESSOR,SELLERS DISCRIPTION SAID(NOT TESTED BUT IN GOOD SHAPE)SO I TOOK A CHANCE!!(THE PERSON THAT LISTED THE PROCESSOR)
FAILED TO MENTION THAT ALL THE PINS ON PROCESSOR
WERE BENT BEYOND REPAIR!!THE SELLER KNEW WHAT THEY WERE SELLING!AND ALSO KNEW EBAY WOULD DO NOTHING ABOUT IT!SELLER MAKES EBAY ALOT OF MONEY ALL WE CAN DO IS POST ARE COMMENTS ON EBAYS DISCUSSION BOARDS(AND HOPE THAT MOST PEOPLE READ THE POSTS, BEFOR EBAY EDITS THEM)!!!
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Buyers should fight back???
hollonre@... 7th Apr 2006
Perhaps if all buyers started responding with "That was then, this is now. I'll take it off your hands for 25% less than my highest bid" we might force some rethinking of the scam???
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Buyers should fight back???
i3cuwbet@... 7th Apr 2006
What if the seller agrees to sell you the item at 25% less and you send him your money but the package never comes. You write the seller over and over again and he keeps pretending he sent you the item, or that he's going to refund your money. But NOTHIG HAPPENS. You're screwed up less 25% but you still are!!!
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THANK YOU!!!
johnmcmullan7@... 9th Apr 2006
IT MAKES ME WONDER??? WHY MORE PEOPLE CANT COME UP WITH A CRAFTY COMEBACK LIKE THAT!!!!!!
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Caveat eBay Emptor
Sandytx 7th Apr 2006
Interesting to me that Jeff wrote about his experiences with eBay because just this week I had a very similar experience. I've been an eBayer for 2 years and had pretty good experiences for this time, both buying and selling. Only one cheater who didn't send a pair of new shoes I bought for less than $10 (hey, they were a good deal!).. but mostly everything on time. I use Paypal 99% of time with credit cards that have limits so if anyone scams me, they'll only do so much damage. I've had the same thoughts about the silliness of the feedback system but it's what's there and they don't seem inclined to make changes to it.
On my recent fraud--the person selling a handbag "assured authenticity" and "guaranteed money back". Great. Broke my own rule and sent Postal Money Order. After repeated emails querying when bag would arrive, it did. A fake. So new emails also get ignored. Now we're in dispute mode. I figure I probably lost my dough.
Interestingly though--when I did a search for a particular phrase that this oh-so-clever seller used on the listing for my bag--voila! it shows up in TEN other bags under a new name, with another bogus location that can't be traced. I did inform eBay but haven't had any response. Wonder if any of their folks read these posts??

Bottom line--there are a lot of honest folks on eBay. Mostly, individuals who want to sell that thing in the basement or a book, or something that someone gave them as a gift that they have no use for. One just has to be cautious. I slipped and didn't follow my own "rules" for buying in the system and got burned. I'll be EXTREMELY cautious in the future but I will use eBay again.
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Many of the posts here are from people buying and selling what I call "commodity" merchandise - ordinary stuff that is readily available from virtually unlimited numbers of sellers either on or off eBay. If you are just a little careful after learning the eBay ropes you most likely won't get burned, and you can always take your business elsewhere. There is no emotional attachment. You'll find the item again somewhere else -- probably in about ten minutes.

Rare collectibles are a different story. This is all I use eBay for. There is not space enough here to explain the subtleties of ferriting out the scam artists in advance (I do it all the time). But I pass along one bit of experience that may help others: The scammers often look for collectibles that run with a clean photo and that attract alot of high bidders. They then electronically appropriate the photo from the legit auction (now closed) and re-use it in a new scam ad. Anyone winning the non-existant item in the scam ad will lose their money if they send in payment. (Such sellers often want cash or money orders and are often located off-shore in places where the item they claim to have was never sold or distributed).

People complain endlessly about eBay, with sad personal experiences to back up their anger. The real problem is that no serious competition to eBay yet exists online. Only when there are several auction sites as strong and agressive as eBay is now will you see the remaining problems addressed and dispatched. A way will be found to effectively blacklist the scammers permanently once it is FINANCIALLY ADVANTAGEOUS for the auction sites to do so.
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Not So Fast 2nd chance can be legit.
bens@... 7th Apr 2006
We are a large Ebay seller, We maintain 3 Powerseller accounts - this is mainly to split up the workload. We do not shill or anything else.

As far as the second chance offer, I often have 10 - 15 of whatever unit is being sold, and it is entirely legitimate to offer another Item to the second place bidder - it saves us listing fees. SO in our auctions we can have 2 or 3 sales - all legitimate and through EBay - no shilling - no buyers backing out. It costs us about $35 to sell each item on eBay and I can save $20 if I have a second chance sale.

Please do not be so quick to judge all sellers when perhaps you do not fully understand how something works.
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2nd chance
Wolfpacker96 7th Apr 2006
Yeah, but just because some, or even most, Power Sellers are legit, doesn't mean it isn't ripe for abuse. I suppose anybody could run up a price, but his point of allowing anyone to know what was supposed to be a private bid, seems questionable. Also, Ebay is far from a perfect world for buyers or sellers, but I don't think making it easier for people to cheat with 2nd chance is the correct thing to do. Sure it helps sometimes, but how is anyone to know if cheating is going on?
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All bids are available to the public after the auction. I like ot think that most Powersellers are too busy selling to bother with shilling. If you suspect a bidder, look at what they've bid on in the past 30 days. If you can't sell at an acceptable price without shilling - your business model is skewed - I think this most happens with individuals. I could live without second chance but it is available so I use it. It is definately buyer Beware - but noone forces anyone to bid or buy. Maybe %5 of my 2nd chance offers are accepted - that could get expensive quickly if one was shilling just to make a 2nd chance offer.
...DURING the auction. eBay changed this some time ago, presumably to allow legit bidders a chance to ferret out potential shills.

And as you point out...there's NO ONE holding a gun to the buyer's head forcing them to ACCEPT the Second Chance offer.

This is all crying about spilled milk anyways. If a buyer is unhappy about a potential shill running up his or her proxy bid, then perhaps that buyer SHOULDN'T HAVE BID SO HIGH IN THE FIRST PLACE.

If you (a buyer) were willing to plunk down that huge proxy to begin with, why should you whine over paying that amount, after all at some point you thought it was reasonable to part with that sum to begin with. Feeling cheated on potentially saving some bucks is only a matter of your own laziness in putting forth a fat proxy bid.

If you want to protect yourself and try to get the best deal possibly, then snipe at the end with what you're willing to pay, when there's less oppotunity for someone to throw in a shill bid. And if you lose, and do get offered a Second Chance offer, then it's up to you on whether it's really what you wanted. Personally I've taken advantage of Second Chance offers in the past on things I've really, REALLY had to have, and also have discarded such offers when things didn't look right, or decided that there are other fish in eBay to get my hooks into for less.

The price you're willing to pay is in the buyer's hands...not anyone else's.
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second chance and...tips
CO77 10th Apr 2006
Think about it...if you click on the bids list, you will find the second highest bid amount unless the auction is private. So finding the previous bidders last best bid is simple.
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legitimate 2nd chance, not
Jay_Toronto 7th Apr 2006
If you have 10 or 15, put them in the auction as 15 available. Don't fish for an acceptable price and use the second chance offer to unload the quantities. You want to maximize sales, buyers want to maximize savings. This is an auction, if you need $10, then set a minimum. You want it both ways. You'll wait for your price with one item in an auction, then reveal your quantities. If you don't get your price, we'll never know if you have more than one for sale. Many Powersellers are just Powerscammers. They leverage every opportunity to bilk buyers. Second chance is another maniplulation Ebay has layed at your doorstep.
I run 30 - 40 auctions at all times, any of these people are welcome to bid whatever they want on any of them. They are also welcome to decline the Second Chance offer. I start almost everything at .01 with No reserve, If I list a dutch auction of 15 - I run the chance of loosing money on each of 15 units, If I run them one at a time I may get beat on one or two, but I am not going to loose my shirt on them. I make no bones about the fact that we are bulk sellers. I even have bidders request a second chance offer once in awhile. - Just offering folks what they bid on for the price they bid - that makes me a scammer?
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second chance scam
Jay_Toronto 8th Apr 2006
It's a scam if the high bidder does not close as is the case in most 2nd chance auctions. I've been offered a second chance many times and declined on principle. The top bidder always seems to have a low rating, and checking their bidding history I find they always seems to be bidding for the same group of Powerscammers, whether its watches, electronics etc. I see these groups of Powerscammers with identical listings, different fonts, and colors, same pickup address, same shipping link and cost, same pictures. Just because you have thousands of feedbacks, does not make you legit. Why start at a penny when your shills will always bid up to the price you want anyway? How do guys with a 3 rating place 100 or more bids a month, win about a third, and not get someones attention. Because EBAY MAKES MONEY ON SHILLS. Powersellers employ shills. FACT OF EBAY!
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Yes, If One Uses Dishonest Methods
SpillChucker 9th Apr 2006
If one uses dishonest methods to extract the maximum amount from a customer, then ,yes, it's a scam.

If you use shill bidders to run the price an honest customer has to pay to "win" the item, yes, it's a scam.

I've purchased hundreds of items from ebay and I've only been riped-off once (as far as I know). I bought a $400 computer, only to get a computer case with a bunch a broken components inside... the scammer didn't even bother installing the junk, just stuffed them in the case and closed it up.

Ebay and PayPal, if not properly policed, has the potential to become nothing but a den of theives. Trust me, it's not properly policed.
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I sell clothing and am also a powerseller. Frankly, when I am buying stock I always try to buy more than one or two of the same item. Since I have a full time job, by having duplicate items, it saves me a great deal of time in listing. My profit after fees on each item is btw 12.00 and 20.00, so by offering a second chance, not only do I move stock faster, but I also save an additional 1.00. That may not sound like much but, that adds up.

Do your homework! I work very hard to maintain my reputation, with 2 neutrals and one neg from years ago. I did not retaliate, even when one was about lint. I do not shill, frankly most powersellers and other sellers have too much going on in their lives to watch each auction as it ends.
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You contradict yourself
nikoniko 7th Apr 2006
First, you say that Second Chance can be legitimate. I agree, it can be. Then you claim that a legitimate use of it is to cheat eBay out of listing fees. People like you are in the same category as the pitiful lot that lists a $50 item at a $1 Buy It Now with $49 shipping in order to cheat eBay out of collecting its rightful percentage of your sale.

I really hope eBay cracks down on behavior like yours and the other things people do to cheat the very business that in many cases made you successful. I do not buy from people who are clearly cheating eBay, because if you'll do it to them I have ever reason to suspect you'll cheat me as well.

I could almost have a little sympathy for a poor person who's just doing this on a couple of items because every penny makes a big difference, but a triple power seller? You ought to be ashamed of yourselves. What's your eBay handle? I'll be happy to point them to your completely unremorseful admission of exploiting their Second Chance system for illegitimate means.
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Actually...
talespinner 8th Apr 2006
Ebay charges full final value fees for any accepted 2nd chance offers--the only "savings" is that the seller doesn't pay the "listing" fee over--that's the whopping dollar or so that they "avoid" paying. They aren't cheating ebay out of fees--ebay's making final value fees, and also the full paypal fees if you pay via paypal on the transaction--they made sure of that when they set up the "2nd chance offer" system.
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I had to reply to this!
Chuckzilla 10th Apr 2006
How is the seller scamming eBay by offering a second chance offer? This is a feature that eBay set up for sellers to use. eBay realizes that maybe they are losing the listing fees for this item; but getting the FVF is better than not getting anything for an off eBay sell.

Chuck
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2nd chance scam
rgamez48 5th Jan 2007
I think employees are scamming. I was offered a second chance and paid $340.00 for a vcr. Never got the vcr and eBay says they never sent the second chance offer. The e-mail had their letter head logos etc., my bid amount, which was far less than the winning bid, my personal information: credit card type, e-mail address etc., work and home phone etc. I "wired" the $ for the sale which was covered by a supposed eBay security bond. On and on. Total rip off with PayPal charging me $24.00 to get my money from a $150.00 sale! rgamez48@yahoo.com

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