How come the NYT, Guardian and Der Spiegel are OK but Wikileaks is not?
I thought the US had freedom of the press.
PayPal hit by DDoS attack after dropping Wikileaks
Summary
PayPal was hit by a denial-of-service attack on Sunday that took its blog offline for about eight hours, according to security researchers.
Topics
PayPal was hit by a denial-of-service attack on Sunday that took its blog offline for about eight hours, according to security researchers.
The distributed denial-of-service (DDoS) attacks came in response to a move by the payment giant to stop providing services to whistleblower website Wikileaks for donations. PayPal said Wikileaks had breached its user policies, which prevent its services from being used to support criminal activity. Wikileaks has been severely criticized for its decision to leak more than 250,000 US diplomatic cables.
"ThePayPalBlog.com is now back up after 75 service interruptions and 8 hours 15 minutes of total downtime. This report doesn't take into account the many hours that ThePayPalBlog.com resolved to a 403 error," PandaBlogs researcher Sean-Paul Correll said in a blog post.
For more on this story, read PayPal suffers DoS for spurning Wikileaks on ZDNet Australia.
Just In
@Economister They are bonefide news sources - whereas Wikileaks is using extortion and blackmail (and is the originator of the leak, the Army Private notwithstanding who is the original criminal). Additionally Wikileaks has shown (and is) not acting responsibly with the information.
@JT82
In the civilized world there used to be something called "presumption of innocence". Obviously this is a concept that is no longer popular among governments and there are companies yielding to pressure. Also there are people like JT82 who have a really strong knee jerk reaction.
Of course there is the slight inconvenience of 1st Amendment at least in USA. Acting irresponsibly with information you possess does not make you a criminal by itself.
In the civilized world there used to be something called "presumption of innocence". Obviously this is a concept that is no longer popular among governments and there are companies yielding to pressure. Also there are people like JT82 who have a really strong knee jerk reaction.
Of course there is the slight inconvenience of 1st Amendment at least in USA. Acting irresponsibly with information you possess does not make you a criminal by itself.
@JT82
How are they using extortion and blackmail? They are asking for no money, nor are they asking for any special treatment... or at least they WEREN'T until the totally bogus charges against Assange for 'rape' were filed or rather, resurrected.
How are they using extortion and blackmail? They are asking for no money, nor are they asking for any special treatment... or at least they WEREN'T until the totally bogus charges against Assange for 'rape' were filed or rather, resurrected.
Lerianis10 --
"Totally bogus charges" ... wow, I hadn't heard that Assange had been cleared of those. When did that happen?
"Totally bogus charges" ... wow, I hadn't heard that Assange had been cleared of those. When did that happen?
@Economister
I'm pretty sure they can't terminate services for companies that they don't provide service for in the first place.
I'm pretty sure they can't terminate services for companies that they don't provide service for in the first place.
@Economister,
Freedom of the press is not tantamount to amnesty for aiding and abetting killers. Anti-government and anti-social types need to be reminded that...yelling "fire" when there is none is not protected speech and printing secrets just because you can is virtually the same thing. If the result of one's behavior is death.....one should expect NO sympathy from most people....and no rational person would say that wiki-leaks is helping to solve any problem. Since most of these leaks were released for the sole purpose of damaging the US Government and it's citizens without any other real reason, wiki-leaks must bear the responsibility for any real damage it causes ! Mr. Assange in an interview confirmed the things I have purported here.
Freedom of the press is not tantamount to amnesty for aiding and abetting killers. Anti-government and anti-social types need to be reminded that...yelling "fire" when there is none is not protected speech and printing secrets just because you can is virtually the same thing. If the result of one's behavior is death.....one should expect NO sympathy from most people....and no rational person would say that wiki-leaks is helping to solve any problem. Since most of these leaks were released for the sole purpose of damaging the US Government and it's citizens without any other real reason, wiki-leaks must bear the responsibility for any real damage it causes ! Mr. Assange in an interview confirmed the things I have purported here.
@jonny2b
Funny, I am very rational (according to people on both sides of the political spectrum) and I say that Wikileaks is helping to solve a problem... namely, the overbearing and unnecessary secrecy that governments engage in today.
Funny, I am very rational (according to people on both sides of the political spectrum) and I say that Wikileaks is helping to solve a problem... namely, the overbearing and unnecessary secrecy that governments engage in today.
Lerianis10 --
Do you believe that any government could operate with full and complete transparency? If so, then you're hopelessly naive.
Do you believe that any government could operate with full and complete transparency? If so, then you're hopelessly naive.
if i find a wallet you lost because of no fault of your own and decided to place all the personal info and credit card info in it online instead of returning it your saying i wouldnt be responsible for anything!
SWEET!
SWEET!
@cyberspammer2
Little difference... according to our Founding Fathers, government isn't supposed to have 'secrets' except for VERY short periods.
The problem isn't with Wikileaks and you were comparing apples to atomic bombs there!
Little difference... according to our Founding Fathers, government isn't supposed to have 'secrets' except for VERY short periods.
The problem isn't with Wikileaks and you were comparing apples to atomic bombs there!
@Economister
Yep and Fox News is the result.
Yep and Fox News is the result.
@Economister
This has nothing to do with the US Constitution, this is about the PayPal company making a decision about a company they don't want to continue doing business with. WikiLeaks isn't a US site, so the US Constitution doesn't come into play here at all. Plus there is freedom of the press, but that doesn't give anyone the right to divulge classified government information without repurcussions.
I'm just surprised that some of the other countries that he's done this to, including the US, haven't put a bullet through his head and thus ended the issue quickly.
This has nothing to do with the US Constitution, this is about the PayPal company making a decision about a company they don't want to continue doing business with. WikiLeaks isn't a US site, so the US Constitution doesn't come into play here at all. Plus there is freedom of the press, but that doesn't give anyone the right to divulge classified government information without repurcussions.
I'm just surprised that some of the other countries that he's done this to, including the US, haven't put a bullet through his head and thus ended the issue quickly.
I haven't reviewed PayPal's actual contract with WikiLeaks, but I would not be surprised to find that PayPal actually violated their own contract.
Wikileaks hasn't broken the law; although its sources may have. However, because Wikileaks is a news agency, they fall squarely under 1st amendment protection. Furthermore, Wikileaks hasn't been convicted of any criminal activity. Ergo, PayPal deserves every loss of revenue they incur for their own illegal activity.
Wikileaks hasn't broken the law; although its sources may have. However, because Wikileaks is a news agency, they fall squarely under 1st amendment protection. Furthermore, Wikileaks hasn't been convicted of any criminal activity. Ergo, PayPal deserves every loss of revenue they incur for their own illegal activity.
@Dr_Zinj - At the end section 10.4 of their User Agreement (6 specific things they can do omitted)
https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/marketingweb?cmd=_render-content&content_ID=ua/UserAgreement_full&locale.x=en_US
"PayPal, in its sole discretion, reserves the right to terminate this Agreement, access to its website, or access to the PayPal Services for any reason and at any time upon notice to you and payment to you of any unrestricted funds held in custody for you."
It would seem that PayPal can do what they feel is best for them and First Amendment protection is immaterial. Additionally, isn't it against the law to be in posession of stolen property even if you are not the one that stole it ?
Edited to try to fix long URL originally with a space in it.
https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/marketingweb?cmd=_render-content&content_ID=ua/UserAgreement_full&locale.x=en_US
"PayPal, in its sole discretion, reserves the right to terminate this Agreement, access to its website, or access to the PayPal Services for any reason and at any time upon notice to you and payment to you of any unrestricted funds held in custody for you."
It would seem that PayPal can do what they feel is best for them and First Amendment protection is immaterial. Additionally, isn't it against the law to be in posession of stolen property even if you are not the one that stole it ?
Edited to try to fix long URL originally with a space in it.
@dev/null
You are forgetting that many courts have turned a leery eye towards those things and have motioned that they would throw them out if someone had the balls to file a lawsuit.
You are forgetting that many courts have turned a leery eye towards those things and have motioned that they would throw them out if someone had the balls to file a lawsuit.
@dev/null
You have hit the nail on the head.
PayPal is not a government. It is a private company. If you want to use PayPal services, you, so to speak, play in their `walled garden`. If you do not the `garden rules`, then you are free to leave, and go elsewhere.
I firmly believe that PayPal has handed Wikileaks the s----y end of the stick, and deserved to be `taught a lesson`. But, as long as PayPal is allowed to exist outside of the `traditional` banking industry, it can do as it pleases. Wikileaks has had its services pulled by Amazon for similar reasons. This action by private companies, with NO recourse by a person or company impacted by these unilateral decisions is one reason why I feel that `net neutrality` needs to be strengthened. Otherwise, we are at the mercy of big business who can, and sometimes do take actions detrimental to our interests as a result of `pressure` from external forces.
You have hit the nail on the head.
PayPal is not a government. It is a private company. If you want to use PayPal services, you, so to speak, play in their `walled garden`. If you do not the `garden rules`, then you are free to leave, and go elsewhere.
I firmly believe that PayPal has handed Wikileaks the s----y end of the stick, and deserved to be `taught a lesson`. But, as long as PayPal is allowed to exist outside of the `traditional` banking industry, it can do as it pleases. Wikileaks has had its services pulled by Amazon for similar reasons. This action by private companies, with NO recourse by a person or company impacted by these unilateral decisions is one reason why I feel that `net neutrality` needs to be strengthened. Otherwise, we are at the mercy of big business who can, and sometimes do take actions detrimental to our interests as a result of `pressure` from external forces.
@Dr_Zinj Reality is far different from the world you live in, where apparently behaving responsibly is optional, and not doing so is your right.
I can just see you falling off a cliff, and as you descend demanding you have a right to be on that cliff.
In the real world, people need and expect a certain amount of privacy, and to violate that because they are public officials is wrong. In your dream world, public officials always, even when with mates or close friends, should speak nicely of everyone, are always neat and clean, smell good and never go to the bathroom or do other disgusting things; every waking moment and action or word should be made public, and of course only you are perfect enough to be able to withstand such intrusions into privacy (or are you?).
Yes, politicians are generally sleazy, but no one short of yourself is perfect enough to run things correctly, so we have to allow them to be human and respect their privacy like we should anyone else's. Except in your fantasy world where anyone can say anything and have no consequences because the only god you worship is the first amendment.
I have an idea; go down to east L.A., listen in on private conversations and then make them public...you have the right to do so...and if they don't like it, just tell them it's your first amendment right.
I can just see you falling off a cliff, and as you descend demanding you have a right to be on that cliff.
In the real world, people need and expect a certain amount of privacy, and to violate that because they are public officials is wrong. In your dream world, public officials always, even when with mates or close friends, should speak nicely of everyone, are always neat and clean, smell good and never go to the bathroom or do other disgusting things; every waking moment and action or word should be made public, and of course only you are perfect enough to be able to withstand such intrusions into privacy (or are you?).
Yes, politicians are generally sleazy, but no one short of yourself is perfect enough to run things correctly, so we have to allow them to be human and respect their privacy like we should anyone else's. Except in your fantasy world where anyone can say anything and have no consequences because the only god you worship is the first amendment.
I have an idea; go down to east L.A., listen in on private conversations and then make them public...you have the right to do so...and if they don't like it, just tell them it's your first amendment right.
@garyleroy@...
Hmm, I'll go down to East LA, listen in on a drug conversation and a murder and then not tell anyone because fear is more important than ethics or morality.
It's amazing how all you armchair philosophers keep avoiding the TRUTH. Or maybe the US is just so OK with corruption now that it's just more important to keep a lid on the lies.
Unbelievable.
Hmm, I'll go down to East LA, listen in on a drug conversation and a murder and then not tell anyone because fear is more important than ethics or morality.
It's amazing how all you armchair philosophers keep avoiding the TRUTH. Or maybe the US is just so OK with corruption now that it's just more important to keep a lid on the lies.
Unbelievable.
tonymcs...
Yeah, and I'm sure you're the caped crusader, going undercover in the 'hood and ratting out drug dealers to the police. Spare me.
(...And I can't ignore the silly and naive equivalency you draw between drug dealers and U.S. military/intelligence efforts. In your mind, of course, I'm sure that America is much worse than any drug dealer, right?)
Yeah, and I'm sure you're the caped crusader, going undercover in the 'hood and ratting out drug dealers to the police. Spare me.
(...And I can't ignore the silly and naive equivalency you draw between drug dealers and U.S. military/intelligence efforts. In your mind, of course, I'm sure that America is much worse than any drug dealer, right?)
@Dr_Zinj Just because WikiLeaks gets First Amendment Protection doesn't mean squat to a corporation deciding to drop services to them. First Amendment Protection is only provided when it comes to dealing with the Government; even then, you're only allowed so much protection until you start dealing with classified documents.
@nix_hed
WRONG! First Amendment protections do apply to companies and organizations and PEOPLE who are using services or working for other people.
The Supreme Court's rulings over the past 100 years+ have made that VERY clear.
WRONG! First Amendment protections do apply to companies and organizations and PEOPLE who are using services or working for other people.
The Supreme Court's rulings over the past 100 years+ have made that VERY clear.
@Dr_Zinj 1st amendment
Since Wikileaks isn't even in the US then our constitution does not apply to them.
Personally, having spent time working in military intelligence, I have no sympathy for people revealing classified material. Intelligence is classified for a reason. You may not agree with the reasons for classification, and sometimes it isn't obvious at all, but trust me, the ones that are happiest to get this info are the enemies of the US and/or the other countries whose classified information is being distributed with absolutely no regard for the well being or safety of those nations or their people. Assange is not being altruistic in any way, shape, or form.
Since Wikileaks isn't even in the US then our constitution does not apply to them.
Personally, having spent time working in military intelligence, I have no sympathy for people revealing classified material. Intelligence is classified for a reason. You may not agree with the reasons for classification, and sometimes it isn't obvious at all, but trust me, the ones that are happiest to get this info are the enemies of the US and/or the other countries whose classified information is being distributed with absolutely no regard for the well being or safety of those nations or their people. Assange is not being altruistic in any way, shape, or form.
Right on PayPal for cutting off this idiot who puts thousands of US solders and US travelers in jepordy by publishing this trash.
I see the Pentagon (dis)information service is hard at work here...
?The DDoS attacks came in response to a move by the payment giant to stop providing services to whistleblower website Wikileaks for donations.?
Who knows who was doing the DdoS attack? China? Russia? Because someone wanted that info being posted as an embarrassment to the USA? PayPal?s contract line that was posted says it all. They can do what they want. If I ran PayPal, I would have put that line into the contract too as a cover for a catch-all for who knows what.
Some good responses and some really stupid ones. I voted a NO to an AP article on Wikileaks that asked if they should be considered for acts of treason. 70% of voters said YES.
Who judges what can be considered whistle-bowing and revealing trade secrets? Moral ethics should be the judge. ?Do to other what you would want them to do to you.? The secret info hurt our war on terrorism. The muslim?s don?t think they are terrorist. We know they all are or will become one when they start obeying the koren.
Who knows who was doing the DdoS attack? China? Russia? Because someone wanted that info being posted as an embarrassment to the USA? PayPal?s contract line that was posted says it all. They can do what they want. If I ran PayPal, I would have put that line into the contract too as a cover for a catch-all for who knows what.
Some good responses and some really stupid ones. I voted a NO to an AP article on Wikileaks that asked if they should be considered for acts of treason. 70% of voters said YES.
Who judges what can be considered whistle-bowing and revealing trade secrets? Moral ethics should be the judge. ?Do to other what you would want them to do to you.? The secret info hurt our war on terrorism. The muslim?s don?t think they are terrorist. We know they all are or will become one when they start obeying the koren.
@EricEB
Unfortunately, that 'catch-all' thing would be illegal under federal law in the United States and international law. Don't be surprised if Paypal is sued by Wikileaks and wins their case.
Unfortunately, that 'catch-all' thing would be illegal under federal law in the United States and international law. Don't be surprised if Paypal is sued by Wikileaks and wins their case.
Lerianis10 --
That would be a shame if that were to happen.
That would be a shame if that were to happen.
Tell wikileaks guy to put to open the secret affairs or rather his bedroom activities with his spouse to the public, in the name of changing the Journalism
Wikileaks a news agency!?! Get real. He is a terrorist and he is helping terrorists all over the world.
@moosies
Which court said this? I missed the decision, could you please point me to one.
As far as you know you are a serial killer and should never be allowed in a forum or outside of a jail cell. You see now a slight problem in your logic?
Which court said this? I missed the decision, could you please point me to one.
As far as you know you are a serial killer and should never be allowed in a forum or outside of a jail cell. You see now a slight problem in your logic?
kirovs...
I wouldn't go swinging the "logic" stick in a post that doesn't make even a shred of sense.
I wouldn't go swinging the "logic" stick in a post that doesn't make even a shred of sense.
Wow, there's actually some reason in the responses here.
If you read the bulk of the responses to David Gurwitz's ongoing criticism of Assange, you'd believe 1) that Assange is some kind of divine hybrid of Woodward, Bernstein, Christ, Bono, and Oprah, and 2) that the United States is responsible for every single evil action on the planet.
Thankfully there are still people who recognize a terrorist and extortionist when they see one.
If you read the bulk of the responses to David Gurwitz's ongoing criticism of Assange, you'd believe 1) that Assange is some kind of divine hybrid of Woodward, Bernstein, Christ, Bono, and Oprah, and 2) that the United States is responsible for every single evil action on the planet.
Thankfully there are still people who recognize a terrorist and extortionist when they see one.
@Churlish
and I recognize the intellectually challenged when I read their post as well
You don't really get it do you? It doesn't matter if Julian is the Anti-Christ - what matters is the TRUTH of the information. Does anyone think in the US any more?
and I recognize the intellectually challenged when I read their post as well
You don't really get it do you? It doesn't matter if Julian is the Anti-Christ - what matters is the TRUTH of the information. Does anyone think in the US any more?
tonymcs...
OK, let's talk TRUTH ... your capitalization, not mine.
Imagine that I learned your bank account number, the passcode to your home's security system, and your Social Security number (or whatever personal ID your country uses if you're not American).
By your logic, I could post or sell those numbers online with no ethical qualms whatsoever. After all, they're the TRUTH, aren't they? Shouldn't the world have access to FACTS?
...Or do you believe that individuals' "classified" data is sacred, but that nations have no need for state secrets? If you believe this, then you clearly have no idea how the real world works.
I'm ecstatic to see that Assange has been taken into custody, where -- hopefully -- he will be unable to do further damage. He is not a hero, a martyr, or a freedom fighter. He's a petty and vengeful little saboteur who has targeted the efforts of America and her allies, and is therefore a de facto enemy combatant.
The actions and policies of America and other western powers have not always been blameless, but despite what you so fervently and obviously believe, we're still morally superior to those who wish us harm. (...Or perhaps you support beheadings, sharia law, and suicide bombings deliberately targeting civilians. If so, then keep on loving Assange.)
OK, let's talk TRUTH ... your capitalization, not mine.
Imagine that I learned your bank account number, the passcode to your home's security system, and your Social Security number (or whatever personal ID your country uses if you're not American).
By your logic, I could post or sell those numbers online with no ethical qualms whatsoever. After all, they're the TRUTH, aren't they? Shouldn't the world have access to FACTS?
...Or do you believe that individuals' "classified" data is sacred, but that nations have no need for state secrets? If you believe this, then you clearly have no idea how the real world works.
I'm ecstatic to see that Assange has been taken into custody, where -- hopefully -- he will be unable to do further damage. He is not a hero, a martyr, or a freedom fighter. He's a petty and vengeful little saboteur who has targeted the efforts of America and her allies, and is therefore a de facto enemy combatant.
The actions and policies of America and other western powers have not always been blameless, but despite what you so fervently and obviously believe, we're still morally superior to those who wish us harm. (...Or perhaps you support beheadings, sharia law, and suicide bombings deliberately targeting civilians. If so, then keep on loving Assange.)
I totally will defend the right of Wikileaks to publish the information. However I also will defend the same right that allows PayPal to Drop anyone from using their service.
It is not a BASIC RIGHT to have a paypal account.
It is not a BASIC RIGHT to have a paypal account.
@grumpygutz
Spot on.
Still it concerns me when big companies yield to governmental pressure, whether this is China or US. Well, this is how it goes....
Spot on.
Still it concerns me when big companies yield to governmental pressure, whether this is China or US. Well, this is how it goes....
@kirovs@... yield to government pressure
Okay, why do you believe that PayPall yielded to government pressure? Or is this just an assumption on your part? Show us the evidence. Seems like people want evidence for every other absolutist statement made here.
Okay, why do you believe that PayPall yielded to government pressure? Or is this just an assumption on your part? Show us the evidence. Seems like people want evidence for every other absolutist statement made here.
Paypal did the right thing. But why are news organizations worldwide reporting leaks. The leaks are stolen documents. I'm not even from the USA and I don't think it's right for news groups to be doing this.
Pay Pal Blog? what the H is that? never heard of it, and I've been using paypal since it was 2 weeks old.
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