Goodness gracious me!
When had these authorites anything to do woth security? The entire Homeland Security project, together with others, including Airport security in this country, is about something else entirely.
It is about collecting as much detail from citizens as possible and to make it as awkward as possible to fly.
But then I am a journalist and ex-editor and know about these things.
Ampers.
Schneier slams US border biometrics
Summary
The Department of Homeland Security has disputed Bruce Schneier's claim that the US-Visit program has had no impact on reducing criminal and terrorist threats.
Topics
Security expert and BT chief security-technology officer Bruce Schneier has attacked the US-Visit border-biometrics program, saying it has had "zero benefit" in terms of security.
Speaking to ZDNet UK last week, Schneier said that there was little evidence that the US-Visit program, which takes fingerprints and retinal scans from all visitors to the United States, had made any impact on reducing the threat from criminals and terrorists.
"If the Department of Homeland Security had apprehended any terrorists [through US-Visit], they would have kicked up a huge press stink," said Schneier. "There has been zero benefit from the program."
A long-time critic of the US-Visit program, Schneier first questioned the cost-effectiveness of the scheme in 2006. At the time, just under 1,000 people had been apprehended for criminal or immigration violations, yet the program had cost $15 billion (£9.4bn) up to that point.
"Take that $15 billion number," wrote Schneier in a 2006 blog post. "One thousand bad guys, most of them not very bad, caught through US-Visit. That's $15 million per bad guy caught. Surely there's a more cost-effective way to catch bad guys?"
However, Robert Jamison, undersecretary at the US Department of Homeland Security's National Protection and Programs Directorate, which oversees US-Visit, told ZDNet UK at the RSA Conference Europe 2008 on Wednesday that the border-biometrics program had been effective.
"There have been several instances of someone applying for entry under one name, being denied, applying under another name, and again being denied [due to biometrics records]," said Jamison. "In a few cases, criminal activity and, in some cases, terrorist activity have been prevented."
Jamison declined to say exactly how many terrorists had been caught as a direct result of the program, saying the information was "classified". However, Department of Homeland Security figures show that more than 2,400 immigration "violators" and criminals have been identified since the inception of the program in January 2004.
In February, US-Visit was claimed to have helped identify two terrorist suspects, now being held in Iraq, from fingerprints lifted from an improvised explosive device.
Talkback Most Recent of 35 Talkback(s)
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ampers@...4th Nov 2008 -
RE: Schneier slams US border biometrics
Bruce, or somebody, is confused. The US-VISIT program does NOT capture retina scans (nobody does that, really...). It also does NOT capture iris images - which is what he may have in mind - since they are: (a) much more common, and (b) more accurate than fingers or face recognition. Please send him an anatomy book.
And his conclusion is that IF the program had worked, we would have heard about it, and since HE has not, it doesn't work...??? Great logic flow.
irish-eyes4th Nov 2008 -
Wrong measure.
Its the number deterred, not the number caught, that measures the success of the program.
teuchter4th Nov 2008 -
Maybe !!
I am an Australian, and my family lives in Texas, U.S
Whilst the U.S has these law I will not visit the US.
I am no threat to anyone! You may then say GOOD! and
stay out!
However this decision impacts on tourist dollars that
I will not spend in the US which in turn affects many
other industries. I am sure, I am not the only one and
so this adds up!
Rather than me and my family fly out to the U.S, I
have paid for family to visit me! It's just not worth
losing my Privacy and Freedom
Go_Aussie6th Nov 2008 -
RE: Schneier slams US border biometrics
It is extremely depressing- having worked with the
national security community in the past and having
been briefed on the border situation- to see how
incredibly illogical and misinformed the "grand
revelations" of self-proclaimed "experts" really are.
Schneier just doesn't have a clue.
Claim: Because I haven't heard DHS brag all the time
about catching terrorists, there must be nothing
happening.
Truth: Most of the time when protective measures work
well you *don't* hear anything- the security community
rarely boasts of their successes because this alerts
adversaries to the measures? effectiveness- let alone
producing a dozen other counterproductive results. No
press is good press for the intelligence community-
they are reticent to a fault. As well, the primary
value of defensive measures (as an earlier poster
astutely remarked) is their ability to deter criminal
actions from being undertaken in the first place (and
the more layers of defenses the better). Terrorists
could certainly bypass all our defenses, but they are
much more likely to go for softer targets than go
through all the trouble and increased likelihood of
being caught. Even criminals are risk averse- think
signs in front of homes advertising burglar alarms.
Experienced criminals can certainly defeat them but
they would rather hit the easier target next door.
Read the 9/11 report- we *need* a biometrics program
for entrants to the country. The primary reason we
lost track of the 9/11 terrorists when they entered
the country was our almost laughably insecure visa
system. In fact, we tracked the ones we knew about
better outside the US! While all our defensive
measures are certainly flawed and cost a bundle of
cash, since 2001 something must be working, although
it is difficult to asses exactly what...or do you
think terrorists suddenly stopped trying to enter the
US and perpetrate attacks after 9/11?
And before someone attacks me for being an apologist
for DHS- I have never worked for them/have no part in
border security/now am just a student going into
another field after I graduate. In fact, I am a critic
of the way they are run.
ccombs14th Nov 2008 -
Truth?? Really??
You claim to have worked in the "national security community" & yet you still think Arab "terrorists" committed 9/11. Want us to read the 9/11 report - really? Let's clarify -- one Osama Bin Laden, a MULTIMILLIONAIRE Saudi who was trained & equipped by our CIA/military to fight the Russians who invaded Afghanistan, who has hundreds of suicide bombers slavishly devoted to him, who hates America with a rabid passion, who purportedly has or has followers who have the vision, skill & resolve to carry out a complicated, multi-pronged attack on US soil, has just decided to NOT ATTACK IN THE U.S. FOR 7 YEARS (with our southern border open to MILLIONS). --- Especially (1) after McNamara admitted that the Gulf of Tonkin incident didn't happen, (2) after Paul O'Neill (GWB's 1st Treasury Secretary) reveals that going after Saddam was topic "A" for Bush only 10 days after the inauguration - 8 months before 9/11 (thus, weapons of mass destruction = "false flag" operation), and (3) as it's becoming clear that Saddam's refusal to transact oil purchases/sales based on the U.S. dollar (thereby undermining the part the dollar plays in global economics) was part of the motivation to invade Iraq, it's apparent to anyone with half a brain that the biggest terrorist organization in the world is US (as in U.S.). "Lose track of the terrorists" - NOT -- can't lose track of something that doesn't exist. Such refusal to openly admit what is becoming clear to even teenagers undermines the credibility of any other points made by the poster -- and that is NOT fair to either the poster or to the readers. ---- We do NOT need any more BOGUS anti-terrorist protocols, federal departments/bureaucracies, etc. stripping us of our privacy and our freedoms. We DO need our public servants to serve US, not enslave US (North American Union anyone?). Do continue to read & study more, but please quit blowin' smoke. 'Nuff said. P.S. Yeah, I know, too much rant on a technology site but it needs to be said nonetheless.
Michael 20055th Nov 2008 -
A "Thank you."
Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU! It is refreshing to read the truth by someone other than myself. It is so interesting and actually amazing how ignorant my fellow compatriots choose to be. Look, we certainly cannot expect our Corporate Controlled "Public School System" to educate our children on any truly comprehensive or cohesive level whatsoever. Not when our children's school books are manufactured and "gifted?" to our "Public?" schools by "Corporate" endowments/big brother/the Bilderberg Membership...now can we? You see, the average American has no idea that the books our children use in our "Public?" schools are completely formulated by these elitist foundations of which "POSE" as innocuous entities just doing their civic duty supplying the nation's "public?" schools with history books that are formulated with just enough half-truths, and disinformation to cause a form of historical amnesia that leaves the American citizen so dynamically dysfunctional on our own history, it is certainly understandable why so many Americans think that patriotism means to kill our brothers and sisters overseas because we have to bring them "Our Form of Democracy" even though most countries have better forms of Democratic Republics than ourselves. The American people have been sold a bill of goods that have been waxed and polished and what they see is a beautiful shiny apple, but the inside is rotten to the core. I voted for Cynthia McKinney and Rosa Clemente and I'm a middle aged White Guy. Obama voted to give the Telecom Giants immunity from prosecution for spying on Americans, he has voted on many issues that leave the American people high and dry, but the International Elite got behind Obama because they could already see that he was becoming quite popular on his own, so they decided to support him through their Main-Stream Media Conglomerate. If people would just take the time to listen to the real news on Pacifica Radio and on other publicly funded (Not false publicly funded/Corporate Underwritten) radio.
Mjr. Dzaster6th Nov 2008 -
Half truth.....
I understand that this is a POST, and not a wikipedia entry. You don't have to cite proof of your "facts".
Still, saying that "big brother" is secretly lying to our children in school books? I would LOVE to see a citation of this.
You don't think that the American Democratic system is the greatest system in the world? What do you want, a Parliament and Queen? That would be better?
Just because you are unhappy with your life, does not mean that the United States is not the greatest country in the world. It means, you did not take control of your own destiny...and make something of yourself. It isn't up to the Government to GIVE you life, liberty and happiness...it just GIVES YOU THE TOOLS.
profsmichael@...7th Nov 2008 -
Is it only YOU who's allowed freedom of speech?
Greatest country in the world? Really?
Where the government needs to grant immunity to telcom companies that broke numerous laws to follow presidential orders spying on its own citizens?
Where US Soldiers rape a young Iraqui girl and murder her, plus her entire family and 7-year-old sister to cover it up?
Where prisoners are held without trial or charge for years -- while being tortured in an American Gulag in Cuba? (Not to mention prisons in Iraq -- but at least you have some amusing pictures to enjoy.)
Where people are kidnapped and sent to US-friendly countries for imprisonment and torture? (Google "waterboarding".)
Where an entire country is invaded and taken over so their over 2 million barrels of oil per day can be stolen?
Ya, that's a pretty good model. I'd believe absolutely everything that government has to say.
I'm sure the rest of the world is VERY jealous and wants a piece of THAT kind of democracy...
Marty R. Milette7th Nov 2008 -
What?
What laws were broken by Telecoms to provide the information? you mention NUMEROUS...so name ONE and cite it. Courts grant access to personal information every day and require the possessor to provide such information. The information was court ordered (whether you LIKE the court or not). Period.
U.S> soldiers activity, heinous as it may be...is not reflective of your GOVERNING body. Not even CLOSE.
What LAW says non-American-citizens are required to be tried/held/ or otherwise imprisoned by AMERICAN standards? Like it or not, that is the case in this situation.
No LAW is broken.
What you call KIDNAPPING is extradition. Again, a COURT approves this action. Don't you read anything...or do you believe all the hype????
Oil was stolen!?!?!?! DEAR GOD, that must have been why gasoline was nearly $.00 per gallon for months! We, as a government, were importing all of this STOLEN gasoline for consumption! By the way TWO MILLION barrels of oil?!?! The EIA reports average AMERICAN consumption at: "20680000 barrels/day. U.S. Motor Gasoline Consumption". The MAJOR contributor to US gasoline in imports per day (JULY) according, again to the EIA is CANADA! I was not aware we had invaded CANADA and stolen their oil! That would be 1.833 million barrels per day. Since that was SO close to your "grasping at air" figure...you MUST mean Canada.
All I can say is...read a book.profsmichael@...7th Nov 2008 -
Ignorance is no excuse.
Your post demonstrates the WORST attitudes, misconceptions and outright lies fed by the government to the people I've ever seen in one place. Congratulations!
Looking for something to read -- try the DHS policy document I linked to in another post -- and when you're done with that -- try the 4th Amendment of the US Constitution.
Don't put them too close together or one will likely burst into flames -- kind of like matter and antimatter.
Hell, if you're in a real reading mood -- even go to the Electronic Frontier Foundation http://www.eff.org and read about what cases are pending against your precious do-no-evil government.
And by the way, just because the government breaks both American and international laws and gets away with it -- does NOT make it 'right'.
Amnesty International puts it this way, "Much of this assault on human rights has been the result of policies and practices authorized and justified by the US executive, led by the US president. Using this checklist, Amnesty International calls on the next US president to close Guant?namo and end illegal detention; to eradicate torture and other ill-treatment; and to end impunity."Marty R. Milette8th Nov 2008 -
Ha, ha, ha......HA! Funny.
Certainly Canada is our major importer of oil. True. But the Cheney/Bush Corporate Crime Syndicate and their extended family of Bilderbergers ARE stealing oil from Iraq. That in and of itself is a fact. The fact that ours (and other nations's energy companies) are in Iraq and Afghanistan and (hopefully Iran....right George?) stealing oil is not for us to import to THIS country, but to control the flow of oil to China, Southeast Asia, Europe and Russia. Although Russia has a lot of their own oil. We get about 12% of our oil from Argentina...you know, from that Socialist country run by a democratically elected president of whom the Elite in this country do not like because like the democratically elected president of Iran in 1950, Cristina Fern?ndez de Kirchner is overseeing the Nationalization of their oil fields. And why does the United States hate it when oil rich nations' democratically elected leaders decide to nationalize their oil fields? Because then those nations can operate independantly of the International Bankers i.e. the World Bank and the IMF. Overall, the G8 mega-conglomerates.
No, I definitely do not trust the Elite in power who own our government. I am not saying that our government is all bad, because there are plenty of good people IN the government. But the Corporations are completely over-embedded regarding power and control over our many spineless and many, amny greedy politicians.Mjr. Dzaster13th Nov 2008 -
Oh, Marty.....
If you really think that your government is the worst on the planet... try living in N. Korea, Communist China,Sierra Leon,Sudan,Angola,Tajikistan,Dem. Republic of Congo, Albania,Haiti,Cuba,Iraq,Iran,Afghanistan,Mexico I can go on here for an hour or more.....
How about a country where you have NO rights, no protections, no peace of mind, or even any safety whatsoever.
After you ponder THAT; how about thinking about how pathetic your claims are that the United States is such a horrible place to live.
Is the US perfect? No...
I will not waste any more of my time with you.... you clearly have NEVER been to ANY other country in the world... have NEVER served in the defense of your country...and don't have any clue whatsoever about how the WORLD actually works.
Congratulations; you completely missed the point. You will continue to miss the point.....so whatever....be ignorant.profsmichael@...8th Nov 2008 -
This response needed to be edited...
I previously posted a message noting what an idiot you were, but decided to reduce the content to something you'd better understand. I also have no choice but to refute your lies about me.
First, you have absolutely no idea who I am, where I've come from or what I'm doing -- nor what I've done for my country and yours as well.
For your information, I'm a Canadian -- not an American, so your first comment 'your government' was wrong.
Your second comment was no better -- I don't live in the USA, I live in Russia -- a place where I have NEVER been subjected to the kind of BULL$HIT I get on EVERY time I enter or leave the USA.
Thanks to UK biometrics, I can fly directly from Russia and enter the UK WITHOUT a search, WITHOUT speaking with anyone, and WITHOUT even the need to show a passport to anyone.
As for a country where you have no rights or any of those other happy words you preach -- look in the mirror and see what kind of police state you have become -- where executive orders pi$$ on the constitution and every law on the books.
In fact, there is a very interesting paper on Amnesty International that gives a very clear indication of what some of those abuses are. It is here:
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/AMR51/117/2008/en
The words used are simple enough for even GWB to understand. (And if none of it was happening -- why did that paper get written in the first place?)
Trying to deny these and other abuses when there is such a vast body of well-documented evidence makes you look like a fool. Google Mark Klein and see if you can figure it that one out.
Your statement that I "clearly have NEVER been to ANY other country in the world..." again demonstrates your ignorance.
I typically fill up a 48-page passport with visa stamps before it expires. I travel every three weeks between Russia, Finland and the UK. Prior to that I worked all over Europe.
You also state, that I "have NEVER served in the defense of your country..." Again, your ignorance makes you look mentally deficient.
Actually, I served in the Canadian Armed Forces for TEN YEARS, and in fact, tot only did I serve MY country, but I also served YOURS by providing network security training to the US Army in Europe including Germany, Italy and Kosovo. NOT ONE of the American trainers volunteered for some of the assignments I did.
If you want to launch a personal attack, at least have the common sense to research your facts before opening your mouth.
In my dictionary, the word "ignorance" doesn't mean someone that doesn't know something -- it means someone who does NOT WANT to know.
Close your eyes, plug your ears, don't take responsibility for anything and above all, deny, deny, deny even in the face of direct facts.
Here's a few links for people who don't have their head up their butt. I'd have put more (there are millions), but couldn't stomach any more of it. If I was a US Taxpayer, I'd have given GWB and Cheney a taste of their own waterboarding.
http://snipurl.com/evil-1
http://snipurl.com/evil-2
http://snipurl.com/evil-3
http://snipurl.com/evil-4 http://snipurl.com/evil-5
http://snipurl.com/evil-6
http://snipurl.com/evil-7
http://snipurl.com/evil-8
http://snipurl.com/evil-9
http://snipurl.com/evil-10
http://snipurl.com/evil-11
http://snipurl.com/evil-12
http://snipurl.com/evil-13
http://snipurl.com/evil-14
http://snipurl.com/evil-15
http://snipurl.com/evil-16
http://snipurl.com/evil-17
http://snipurl.com/evil-18Marty R. Milette8th Nov 2008 -
I concur
Note that MM is not a US citizen - he resides in Russia, so his comments should be understood in that light.
See: www.anderssononline.org/securityrisk.htm
dandersson22nd Jul 2009
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