"Workers are suffering from obesity, sleep
disorders, depression and broken relationships -
problems which can lead to more serious conditions
such as diabetes or heart disease. In a country
where a public healthcare system is virtually non-
existent, overworked outsourcing employees could
present a health crisis in the making."
That's a lot of the people I work with.
Discussion on:
Welcome to capitalism, indeed. At first it was fun, "America's comeuppance", free training, and the rest. Not so pleasant these days...
They are anything but cheery and chatty with me, they just want off the phone as fast as possible, whether they solve your problem or not.
You get exactly what you pay for. There is already a backlash starting amongs some american companies against outsourcing to india, some going as far as to use american phone support as a marketing point. There is another issue not mentioned in this article and that is the culture of outsourced labor over there. That culture is to work one job for at most a year, then hop to something that pays more. Problem is that in that year you've barely learned anything about the current job, so you are only really productive maybe the last half to a quarter of said year. Again, American companies are taking note of the poor quality of work that comes out of this due to the fact that most outsourced employees know little to nothing of the business they've been outsourced.
So, by my count, outsourcing A) decreased jobs available in the states B) results in sub-par quality of work product C) is apparently destroying the health of employees that are being outsourced to D) causes public backlash against company doing the outsourcing due to point B.
Am I missing some good points here other then short term savings in labor costs (which may well be offset by poor product/service and loss of consumer loyalty - need to see some numbers on this). Isn't it time we start cutting back just a little?
"The views expressed here are mine and do not reflect the official opinion of my employer or the organization through which the Internet was accessed."
So, by my count, outsourcing A) decreased jobs available in the states B) results in sub-par quality of work product C) is apparently destroying the health of employees that are being outsourced to D) causes public backlash against company doing the outsourcing due to point B.
Am I missing some good points here other then short term savings in labor costs (which may well be offset by poor product/service and loss of consumer loyalty - need to see some numbers on this). Isn't it time we start cutting back just a little?
"The views expressed here are mine and do not reflect the official opinion of my employer or the organization through which the Internet was accessed."
I totally agree with everything you have said...But also must insert the working 1 year, and Job Hopping also happend here in the U.S....Seen it all to many times...all else ...you hit on the nail with...
Definitely happens here in the states as well. My point was more that, that is the accepted mode of behavior over there. EVERYONE does it. Here in the states, folk try to hang on to their jobs a little more and its also frowened upon by employers. Vetting and hiring a new employee is very expensive and employers do not like to see someone working 5 jobs in 5 years - its telling the employer that he/she is going to have to look for another new hire very soon if he/she hires this person in front of them. Over there, the employer knows for a fact that the turnover is going to be at approximately a year and there is no way around it, so they take whomever comes along. Like I said, its a difference of professional cultures.
"The views expressed here are mine and do not reflect the official opinion of my employer or the organization through which the Internet was accessed."
"The views expressed here are mine and do not reflect the official opinion of my employer or the organization through which the Internet was accessed."
Some in the media claim gen-X'ers only want money and have no loyalty...
Some in the media claim companies don't like having to train...
Some job-hop because they're in a dead-end job with no chance for personal or professional growth.
The truth is undoubtedly in the middle somewhere, but there's plenty of blame for ALL sides to take.
Some in the media claim companies don't like having to train...
Some job-hop because they're in a dead-end job with no chance for personal or professional growth.
The truth is undoubtedly in the middle somewhere, but there's plenty of blame for ALL sides to take.
right? American companies don't care about the state of outsourced tech support. They know the consumer will bend over, take it and like it. The consumer has no will power to wield the power of his check book. This would require him to say no to buying all the junk he wants - not needs, wants. I've personally only heard on ad where the producer is bragging about US based tech support - Cricket phone. Who else have you heard sell US based tech support?
I don't pay attention to ads. Ever. As a matter of principal. However, stuff does get through even through the zoning out and I have been hearing several TV ads boasting that you can get someone on the phone that is actually in the US. Couldn't tell you what company though - like I said, just zone it out.
As for the consumer saying no, what you said may have been true up until about a year and a half ago. THings have changed quite a bit since as you may have noticed, consumer spending is down quite a bit, and I guarantee you people are becoming much more informed consumers as a result.
I'll mention another personal example. A erlative of mine works for company X (not the real name of course, but can't really reveal, especially since I'm posting from work) In any case. Company X has been using outsourced IT labor from India. Without fail, every week, my relative has another story about the horrible quality of work that is being sent over by these folks - sometimes just terrible quality, sometimes its not done AT ALL. At first it was just my relative complaining. Now management in company X is taking notice because its hitting their deliverabales and time-tables for application release since my relative and her co-workers have to work sometimes 12-15 hour shifts actually redoing all the work that the outsourced folks were supposed to have done. Just this last week I caught my relative staying up past 1AM in the morning not even redoing, but JUST doing the work that the oversea IT folk told her was done. It wasn't. Nothing was done. She had to do everything on her own. And you better believe he management knows about it full well.
Result? Outsouricing significantly reduced at said company. Not immediately of course as there are contracts to fulfil, but new ones are NOT being written. And company X is a very big, major one that I'm sure you've all heard of if I were able to mention it.
"The views expressed here are mine and do not reflect the official opinion of my employer or the organization through which the Internet was accessed."
As for the consumer saying no, what you said may have been true up until about a year and a half ago. THings have changed quite a bit since as you may have noticed, consumer spending is down quite a bit, and I guarantee you people are becoming much more informed consumers as a result.
I'll mention another personal example. A erlative of mine works for company X (not the real name of course, but can't really reveal, especially since I'm posting from work) In any case. Company X has been using outsourced IT labor from India. Without fail, every week, my relative has another story about the horrible quality of work that is being sent over by these folks - sometimes just terrible quality, sometimes its not done AT ALL. At first it was just my relative complaining. Now management in company X is taking notice because its hitting their deliverabales and time-tables for application release since my relative and her co-workers have to work sometimes 12-15 hour shifts actually redoing all the work that the outsourced folks were supposed to have done. Just this last week I caught my relative staying up past 1AM in the morning not even redoing, but JUST doing the work that the oversea IT folk told her was done. It wasn't. Nothing was done. She had to do everything on her own. And you better believe he management knows about it full well.
Result? Outsouricing significantly reduced at said company. Not immediately of course as there are contracts to fulfil, but new ones are NOT being written. And company X is a very big, major one that I'm sure you've all heard of if I were able to mention it.
"The views expressed here are mine and do not reflect the official opinion of my employer or the organization through which the Internet was accessed."
Welcome India, to the IT World ....and the pains it also brings....Quality of Life working in IT, is something during this economic downturn I have been applying a lot of thought to. Not sure if I want to continue in the IT Rat Race....Love tech...but there is a lot of pressure...which even the health industry states stress, long hours of work, IT job instability, and all the other baggage that goes along with IT....can have detrimental effects to one's health..
You can quit IT but don't expect to find a decent paying job where there is no stress.
One thing about India, the stress is there but they don't earn as much as we do in the US.
One thing about India, the stress is there but they don't earn as much as we do in the US.
And we earn so much in the U.S.? Outsourcing has artificially depressed domestic salaries. Check the cost of living and therefore actual value of the salaries in India vs. U.S.
Equally importantly, IT professionals are not compensated as well for overtime and stressful conditions compared to other professions, such as medical. We're considered "salaried exempt" in many places, and often expected to take our turn with the pager for no extra $$, and put in overtime with no comp for it.
IT in the U.S. is no longer what it was.
Equally importantly, IT professionals are not compensated as well for overtime and stressful conditions compared to other professions, such as medical. We're considered "salaried exempt" in many places, and often expected to take our turn with the pager for no extra $$, and put in overtime with no comp for it.
IT in the U.S. is no longer what it was.
Is an oversaturated market. Too many folks trying to do IT because, as the poster above said, they enjoy it. I understand - but I also saw how two of my relatives have to work (both in IT) just to maintain their job security. And that's when I went to business school. Huzzah!
But I digress. Outsourcing has certainly damaged the IT industry here in the states, no doubt about it. But even on top of that, there's a LOT folk trying to do IT here and hence its become so easy to find someone adequate that its simply become comoditized. And comodities are cheap. At the end of the day, its as simple as Supply > Demand = lower price for product.
"The views expressed here are mine and do not reflect the official opinion of my employer or the organization through which the Internet was accessed."
But I digress. Outsourcing has certainly damaged the IT industry here in the states, no doubt about it. But even on top of that, there's a LOT folk trying to do IT here and hence its become so easy to find someone adequate that its simply become comoditized. And comodities are cheap. At the end of the day, its as simple as Supply > Demand = lower price for product.
"The views expressed here are mine and do not reflect the official opinion of my employer or the organization through which the Internet was accessed."
Life is what we make of it, we openly apply value to what we want.
We could make garbageman rich because nobody wants to do the job -- and there's plenty of trash. With 'supply and demand', the wages have to go up so people will do it.
Then again, why put value on cleaning up trash? Just litter the planet... and I don't see anybody really doing anything of substance. If they did, then "60 Minutes" would run out of topics to air...
We could make garbageman rich because nobody wants to do the job -- and there's plenty of trash. With 'supply and demand', the wages have to go up so people will do it.
Then again, why put value on cleaning up trash? Just litter the planet... and I don't see anybody really doing anything of substance. If they did, then "60 Minutes" would run out of topics to air...
Teamster unions negotiate very good salaries for their members (teamsters being the nice way of saying 'garbageman') and on top of that, they make it very difficult for additional members to get into the union, allowing them to control said good salaries. They aren't what you'd call amazing get rich salaries, but they are pulling in 20-30/hour easily, plus benefits, so nothing to scoff at either.
In any case, the key point there is 'union' which by definition artificially distorts the free-market supply/demand equation. There is no IT labor union - though perhaps its time?
The value of unions to society and the economy is not an argument I care to get into atm.
"The views expressed here are mine and do not reflect the official opinion of my employer or the organization through which the Internet was accessed."
In any case, the key point there is 'union' which by definition artificially distorts the free-market supply/demand equation. There is no IT labor union - though perhaps its time?
The value of unions to society and the economy is not an argument I care to get into atm.
"The views expressed here are mine and do not reflect the official opinion of my employer or the organization through which the Internet was accessed."
so either the media is lying, or the cost of living makes the wages those workers think is manna from heaven makes their economy bloom -- while the identical wages can't even be lived on in America.
Or the truth is in the middle...?
Or the truth is in the middle...?
1) Economy blossoming has zero to do with how well the workers are treated. I can think of another very good example of a country whose economy shot through the roof when they 'recruited' some 'cheap labor' from Africa back in the 1700 and 1800s. Said 'cheap labor' worked various high-cash crops as well as precious stone and metal mines, for almost no pay, making this country the richest and most powerful in the world. Can you guess which one I'm talking about?
2) Yes, their wages compared to cost of living are very different from what we see here. Not sure what your point here was...
"The views expressed here are mine and do not reflect the official opinion of my employer or the organization through which the Internet was accessed."
2) Yes, their wages compared to cost of living are very different from what we see here. Not sure what your point here was...
"The views expressed here are mine and do not reflect the official opinion of my employer or the organization through which the Internet was accessed."
as it's the same for all.
Maybe the system is wrong for one's health? When we're not seen as "walking liabilities", we're "walking wallets".
Maybe the system is wrong for one's health? When we're not seen as "walking liabilities", we're "walking wallets".
Welcome to the modern world. Enjoy your stay
Dell has provided support for the Ubuntu loaded laptop; something I greatly appreciate. I've spoken with the support techs in India; there is a specific phone number for that support. I've found their support and and also their English to be quite good, but I'm used to listening to people with foreign accents since I grew up in Hawaii with it's cosmopolitan mix which taught me to listen closely. And yes, I'm sorry they have to work night shifts because I've suffered through that disruptive schedule myself. I was surprised to find Costco offers excellent technical phone support from American workers on American soil.
between being able to speak english and actually providing knowlegable support. The former may be covered (actually these folks are forced to learn an "English" accent to use at the job, but revert back to their natural language outside the job. Not only that, but they are given American sounding names like Joe or Roger for when they answer the phone. It's an act to make you think there is a familiar, friendly and quality person on the other line, whether that's true or not. Read up on this practice.). The later on the other hand is pretty laughable. They know only what the computer screen in front of them tells them - just read off a script and hope the person calling figures it out or simply gives up. There is little to no thought or education behind this. But we are also digressing - we were talking about Indian IT workers, not phone support.
"The views expressed here are mine and do not reflect the official opinion of my employer or the organization through which the Internet was accessed."
"The views expressed here are mine and do not reflect the official opinion of my employer or the organization through which the Internet was accessed."
Listen i don't know what your experiences have been with indian BPO but having worked with one and later leading a team, i can tell you this..the quality of work actually depends on how much you spend and on what kind of support..i personally , & please don't be offended have found most Americans inept at even basic knowledge of computers or for that matter any software/application..i could share with you thousand of examples where the client did'nt even know how to switch on their laptops forget reconcile their financial records..we were trained on how not to laugh/respond in a condescending tone when a client asks you a really dumb question..or something even a sixth grader here could answer without thinking twice..i for that matter pride on my knowledge of not just English but also technical skills & this was true for not just my team but all of the 2000 employees working for us...again,if organisations in US don't want to spend a little more money to their BPO provider due to their greed, they will get quality directly proportional..my personal opinion, approx 75% BPO staff in most of the locations in India is well trained & good at English communication & in a lot of cases these opinions i read here are exaggerated probably discomfort owing to job losses in the US...such is my personal opinion & no offense to anyone
Based on your English skill, I'm not so eager to take your word for it.
Hence the part where I said "Read up on this practice". Pot calling the kettle black?
"The views expressed here are mine and do not reflect the official opinion of my employer or the organization through which the Internet was accessed."
"The views expressed here are mine and do not reflect the official opinion of my employer or the organization through which the Internet was accessed."
Soon Unions may organize, more labor laws, wage and salary demands go up, middle class grows, a stronger economy emerges... Sound familiar.
Then which poor country is the next to ravage.
This is economics 101.
Then which poor country is the next to ravage.
This is economics 101.
*looks around for United States IT labor unions and still can't find anything*
huh?
"The views expressed here are mine and do not reflect the official opinion of my employer or the organization through which the Internet was accessed."
huh?
"The views expressed here are mine and do not reflect the official opinion of my employer or the organization through which the Internet was accessed."
To see the ultimate result of ouotsourcing I recommend that you read the book or see the film of catch 22. Crazy logic
This is par for the course. BTW, there are no cheery or chatty customer service reps in India, and in fact most are just the opposite.
I hope i am NOT hearing sympathy for these ppl ?? I only hope I hear outrage for companies scamming Americans out of their jobs, homes, families.These companies should be banned from USA permanently!! NOT once has this so called "cheap" labor lowered our prices for their goods. Are we blind ???? Can we say total GREED !!!!
Most of them are convinced that they are the best of the world and even claiming that the average IQ is the highest in the world.
:/
:/
Most of them do have a ******** education background from the best schools around the country and they are pretty smart but when you have to work those long hours to earn a buck it does have its side effects!!
Most of them do have a strong education background from the best schools around the country and they are pretty smart but when you have to work those long hours to earn a buck it does have its side effects!!
But good education and high IQ has almost nothing to do with productivity, competence, or dedication to your job. I know many less then stellar (academically) folks that work far harder and do better work then some of my fellow ivy leaguers. In fact, more of then then not, those folk with the high IQs seem to believe that they are entitled not to work as hard because they think anything they touch turns to gold. Intellgince and common sense often do not go hand in hand.
"The views expressed here are mine and do not reflect the official opinion of my employer or the organization through which the Internet was accessed."
"The views expressed here are mine and do not reflect the official opinion of my employer or the organization through which the Internet was accessed."
Some h1-b with a high IQ are just min-maxing or simply cheating on it. Let's say, exist a group of them with a lot of certification (Microsoft, Cisco, Sun,.. just name it) but they are not enough smart to solve a very single trouble, or they don't have a ### clue about a real case scenario.
Outsourcing is not the only place for stress...
being a chef, I have had the stress of working with cooks who cannot cook, chefs who cannot chef, and managers who cannot manage and it has taken its toll. A recent heart attack has made me limit my stress to nothing more than taking care of my family without regard to the mundane employees who simply don't have the passion for their stations in life. I'm sorry that we have to outsource overseas our techs but if only we could do that with the kitchen employees and still serve our guests in the dining room. HAH!!!
being a chef, I have had the stress of working with cooks who cannot cook, chefs who cannot chef, and managers who cannot manage and it has taken its toll. A recent heart attack has made me limit my stress to nothing more than taking care of my family without regard to the mundane employees who simply don't have the passion for their stations in life. I'm sorry that we have to outsource overseas our techs but if only we could do that with the kitchen employees and still serve our guests in the dining room. HAH!!!
Don't you think those US companies who hired them share the responsibilities too? They are the one pay them much less than if an American were going to do the same job, and these companies do not care about these workers except how much money they will save by outsourcing! To me, they treat these workers as slaves! The worst is that nobody in the government wants to do anything afraid that they will lose those strong lobbist! What a shame! Slavery is still exist, but in other under-developed countries instead of in the good old USA!
I can understand why those people get stressed. It just piss's me off when I have to call customer service for a product that doesn't work out of the box or product fails after a day and a half. You end up talking to a person that only knows bad english, and usually they want you to try different solutions that have nothing to do with the problem. Almost always I can't understand them and they can't understand me and I just end up hanging up on them. They are no help. Usually just take product back for a refund.
To add alittle extra. I lost my 18 year job to out-sourcing, thanks to company that got greedy. Mexico and China now do my job at a fraction of what I was doing, but yet they still charge the customer the same
To add alittle extra. I lost my 18 year job to out-sourcing, thanks to company that got greedy. Mexico and China now do my job at a fraction of what I was doing, but yet they still charge the customer the same
So far, I haven't found any companies happy with outsource development. Crappy code, missed deadlines, cost overruns, language barrier, slow turn around times, lots of frustration. And, apparently, code comments are a sign of weakness in Indian culture. At least judging by the Bangladore spaghetti code I've seen.
It's easier for companies to outsource call centers because only their customers have to put up with the difficulty of dealing with them.
But when your big development projects are late or the code is buggy, it's harder to ignore.
It's easier for companies to outsource call centers because only their customers have to put up with the difficulty of dealing with them.
But when your big development projects are late or the code is buggy, it's harder to ignore.
Take our jobs, take our stress. No sympathy for the outsource companies. Lousy customer service, poor level of training and a complete lack of responsibility. The outsourcing of customer dis-service has been the single largest dis-service done to the American consumers and all for the all mighty dollar. These same companies seem to expect the American consumer to continue to purchase their products but expect someone else to employ the people they want to buy their lousy products and services. I haven't notice one tiny bit of decrease in costs related to customer service outsourcing but I have definitely noticed an increase in earnings per share. So I hope these companies reap what they have sown and get all that is coming to them. As these companies are used to drive down wages in the US they are sowing the seeds of their own destruction because when wages get too high the companies will outsourse to cheaper markets and leave these workers to starve. eventually it will come back to the US market.
I hope that all of these CEOs that have gone the outsourcing route rot in hell.
Boo hoo, cry me a river. The stress of IT has been known for years. If they can't handle it someone in America will be happy to have the job.
This is called "White-color sweat shop". The sad thing is that sweat shop exist in all levels.
Listen i don't know what your experiences have been with indian BPO but having worked with one and later leading a team, i can tell you this..the quality of work actually depends on how much you spend and on what kind of support..i personally , & please don't be offended have found most Americans inept at even basic knowledge of computers or for that matter any software/application..i could share with you thousand of examples where the client did'nt even know how to switch on their laptops forget reconcile their financial records..we were trained on how not to laugh/respond in a condescending tone when a client asks you a really dumb question..or something even a sixth grader here could answer without thinking twice..i for that matter pride on my knowledge of not just English but also technical skills & this was true for not just my team but all of the 2000 employees working for us...again,if organizations in US don't want to spend a little more money to their BPO provider due to their greed, they will get quality directly proportional..my personal opinion, approx 75% BPO staff in most of the locations in India is well trained & good at English communication & in a lot of cases these opinions i read here are exaggerated probably discomfort owing to job losses in the US...such is my personal opinion & no offense to anyone
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