The Apple Core

Jason D. O'Grady & David Morgenstern

Oh the horror! Why is Microsoft pushing the hated Windows Ribbon for Office:Mac?

By | March 8, 2010, 10:35pm PST

Summary: Last month, the Microsoft Macintosh Business Unit announced Office:Mac 2011 and posted some screen shots of its future user interface. I finally got around to looking at them. Sorry to say, the productivity-killing Ribbon introduced with Office 2007 on Windows will make its way to the Mac. Sigh. But the silver lining is that we will get to keep our menus.

Last month, the Microsoft Macintosh Business Unit announced Office:Mac 2011 and posted some screen shots of its future user interface. I finally got around to looking at them. Sorry to say, the productivity-killing Ribbon introduced with Office 2007 on Windows will make its way to the Mac. Sigh. But the silver lining is that we will get to keep our menus.

Office:Mac, like a number of other recent Mac OS X programs and especially Web-based apps, are making trade-offs in their application interfaces that ding power users and kowtow to the entry-level part of the market.

On the Mac Mojo blog, Han-Yi Shaw, the Macintosh Business Unit’s lead program manager, put a good Mac face on the Office:Mac 2011 introduction of the Ribbon, differentiating the Mac version from its Windows counterparts.

It’s called the “Office for Mac ribbon”, or as we refer to it internally, “MacRibbon”. The “Mac” part tells you that it was designed specifically for the Mac, with all of the recognizable attributes that Mac users have come to love; the “Ribbon” part signifies the shared lineage with the ribbon seen in Office 2007 and now Office 2010 for Windows.

What? So, the concept is that you say, “potato” and I say, “nobody likes the Ribbon, nobody, unless they work at Microsoft or have taken a deep pull on the draught prepared in the halls of Redmond for the brave heroes, aka the enterprise customers who have no alternative to using Office because Office is the standard and we all use Office here.” What does it matter that it’s called a Mac Ribbon because it’s running on the Mac? It’s still the Ribbon.

However, it was the very same Mac user community who expected a first-class ribbon implementation, who were at the same time crystal clear in their message: deliver a ribbon interface that’s built upon, not at the expensive of, the Mac user interface and native Mac OS X platform technologies. And as we at MacBU are Mac users ourselves, we empathized with this unequivocal request coming from our user community. Hence, the MacRibbon was born.

It began from user feedback — and every step of the way — we listened, iterated, and listened some more. And after two years of development — and having worked closely with our customers — we think we’ve landed in a happy place with the Office for Mac ribbon. And with that, here comes the exciting part: What is the Office for Mac ribbon?

Now, it is difficult for this longtime Mac user to believe that any Mac user (not on the Microsoft payroll) requested a first-class or even a second-class ribbon interface. While I am loath to doubt the word of Han-Yi Shaw, with whom I have had no word about this matter, perhaps we may infer that Microsoft bean-counters suggested that since the company owns the Ribbon interface and spent so much time and effort on it, naturally, all of its customers should gain the benefit of it, even on the Macintosh platform. And we should be happy for it.

Then again, out of the millions of Mac users, the ones who love the Ribbon would gravitate to Redmond or San Jose where the next version of Office:Mac is under development. Some of them, for example, newcomers to the Mac with fresh experience of Windows Office, might want the rest of us to share their pain.

Nadyne Richmond, a user experience researcher at Microsoft, explained this further on her blog Go ahead, Mac my day.  She says it’s an evolution from the Elements Gallery in Mac:Office 2008. And she explained that Office will remain a “good” Mac program, letting users see its menubar.

As we began our work on Office:Mac 2011, we had to make decisions about what the next generation of the Elements Gallery should look like. We made some great strides forward in improving discoverability, but there were still some improvements to be made. As we looked at our colleagues on the Windows Office team and considered what they had learned through their Ribbon work, we decided that we could do the Ribbon in a Mac way that works for our users.

Our single most important decision for the MacRibbon is that we’re still going to be a good Mac citizen. Our menus, not to mention the standard toolbar, stay. We knew that one concern that our users have is the availability of vertical screen real estate. As such, we quickly made the decision that our MacRibbon should be collapsible. If you’re using the MacRibbon, then you’ve got easy access to our features; if you’re not, then you can collapse it to get it out of your way. If you’re feeling particularly minimalistic, you can collapse the standard toolbar too, leaving you with every pixel on your screen below the menu bar to dedicate to your document.

We can all be glad that Mac users will still familiar access to tools via the menubar. However, even now, years after the introduction of Office 2007, I meet users who can’t find the controls and tools that they need with the Ribbon.

How bad is it? There’s a game called Ribbon Hero that is supposed to teach the interface. Here’s a post this week from Microsoft’s own Partners in Learning Network resource site:

When you install Ribbon Hero, it appears as an add-in inside Word, PowerPoint and Excel, and you get an icon for it – where else? – on The Ribbon. When  you click on the icon, you’re offered your first set of challenges, which you can attempt to complete with or without the helpful hints.

“Don’t hate the Ribbon, be a Ribbon hero!” To a longtime Mac user, this describes perfectly all over the Microsoft and Windows mindset and user experience. It’s the interface that eventually you will love to hate.

Another “advantage” of the Ribbon, according to Shaw, is how it gets rid of those nasty tool palettes.

And given that the Office for Mac ribbon is nicely anchored inside the application window, adjacent to the standard toolbar, gone are the days when you had to position and reposition the Formatting Palette to prevent it from covering your document contents or falling off the screen as it grows and shrinks during normal usage. The Office for Mac ribbon solves the common user complaint about “I like the Formatting Palette, but it can really get in the way” — and users who tested the Office for Mac ribbon overwhelmingly favored it.

This is part of an annoying trend over the past couple of years in the Mac community: the use of mono-screen applications instead of the longstanding use on the Mac of a “single document interface” (SDI) and floating tools in palettes.

In the SDI, the menubar and tools are always available on the top of the screen or on palettes, respectively. Each document has its own window.

Microsoft instead chose a multiple document interface (MDI) for Windows that presents a parent window containing both tools and multiple documents. Depending on screen real estate, the MDI can be useful. This approach makes it easy to show and hide windows relating to an application. If applications take over the full screen, as they almost always do on Windows, MDI works fine.

With Apple’s SDI approach, users can have many documents open on the desktop, which can become confusing. Apple has addressed this issue with a variety of ways to hide applications and related documents and palettes (Option + Click); Expose, which with a move of the mouse can provide various views documents as large “thumbnails” for navigation; and Spaces, which lets users group applications into a more narrow workflow. Expose always amazes Windows users with its elegance and simplicity.

Power Mac users have long taken to using large displays and multiple screens to expand their view of their documents and Apple has supported easy setup and configuration of multiple displays. They can group tools and documents across workspaces and create a sophisticated and power workflow.

Yet at the same time, Apple has undermined this interface strategy with an increasing number of applications that can only open one document at a time, such as iMovie and iDVD. Some other applications only have one window, including iPhoto, iTunes, and even the professional Aperture product. They function much like an MDI.

An excellent critique of this “one-window” approach was offered in a post by Lukas Mathis several years ago on his Ignore the Code blog. He says MDIs are bad for the Mac and looked at how Adobe mitigated its use of MDI.

Some implementations of MDI make it hard to remove palettes from the main window. This is bad because in a multi-screen environment, a typical setup is to move all palettes to one screen, while keeping documents on the other screen. Again, the CS4 UI allows for this, so no complaints here.

MDI takes away space on larger screens. After your screen reaches a certain size, it doesn’t make much sense to maximize windows anymore. Having an MDI means you always waste space with a ton of application chrome around your documents - space which could be used by other applications running at the same time. Again, CS4 has a solution for this; hitting tab removes the application chrome (although I wasn’t able to get it back easily - hitting tab again did nothing at all). Unfortunately, the application chrome is not hidden if the application is put in the background while in MDI mode.

I blame the influence of the browser for this trend. And the MacBook and the iMacs with smaller displays. Everything in a browser and browser-based app is contained within a single window. Over time we’ve gotten used to the browser being more than a content container. It’s made users comfortable with the MDI approach. At the same time, MDI appeals to computers with smaller screens, there’s not the expanded real estate of very large displays or multiple monitors.

So, Microsoft is moving its professional Mac suite to an MDI. I get it but don’t have to like it. There are many of us who find that tool palettes don’t “really get in the way.”

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David Morgenstern has covered the Mac market and other technology segments for 20 years.

Disclosure

David Morgenstern

Freelance journalist/blogger David Morgenstern has nothing to disclose.

Biography

David Morgenstern

David Morgenstern has covered the Mac market and other technology segments for 20 years. In the recent past, he founded Ziff-Davis' Storage Supersite, served as news editor for Ziff Davis Internet and held several executive editorial positions at eWEEK. In the 1990s, David was editor of Ziff Davis' award-winning MacWEEK news publication as well as its successor title, eMediaWEEKly, which focused on multiplatform professional content creation. His byline can be found online and in print publications including CreativePro.com, Peachpit Press' Mac Bible and Popular Photography.

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With my extensive use of the Ribbon,
nccastle@... 20th Aug 2010
I have found that it is much more efficient. If I want to insert something, I go to the insert tab. If I want to include references, I can go to the references tab. That tab is full of tools I didn't even know existed in Office 2003. That is the problem the Ribbon solves; all of the really great functionality was hidden under 50 layers of menus and dialog boxes. I also love that I only see options for things that are contextually relevant. If I am editing a picture, I see the picture tab. If I am editing the header and footer, I see the header and footer tab. If I am editing a SmartArt graphic, I see the SmartArt graphic tab. I think you can see where I am going with this. I liked the office button (I could find it because it blinked, flashed, told me what it did, and popped out at me), but I recognize that most people didn't like it. That shouldn't be a problem, because that is not on the MacRibbon.
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Don't like it? Don't use it then
honeymonster Updated - 9th Mar 2010
It is as simple as that. There are plenty of
alternatives. Yes, MS Office is the most complete,
but sure you could get by with OpenOffice if you
like the 20th century user interfaces so much.

OOo is pure Office 97 love.
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Author sounds like a drama-queen
LBiege 9th Mar 2010
Ribbon is just fine. I'm glad those menu items are gone. RIBBON GUI feels far more natural
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Same thing, but replace country with company.

Shame all those who said "America: Love it or leave it" between January 2001 and January 2009 are still here... they don't love it right now...
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Because it's better...
Sleeper Service 9th Mar 2010
...really, you Mac guys need to decide if you like progress or not.
0 Votes
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And it seems that the advantage that the ribbon
takes up less screen real estate is somewhat gone
on the Macs.

But as I said above: Don't like it? Don't use it.
No one are forcing Mac users to use a specific
brand of software. That's for iPhone, iPods and
Giant iPods.
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I suppose...
Sleeper Service Updated - 9th Mar 2010
...but they can always switch to Windows on their Macs if it's an issue.

Once you get used to it the Ribbon is a brilliant, brilliant idea.
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Was Clippy progress? Was Clippy another MS
"brilliant, brilliant idea"?

Was Vista a "brilliant, brilliant idea"? That
was progress too huh?

Right up there with Windows ME?

But hey, don't take my word for it... 99.7% of
Office users all agree... The Ribbon sucks and
so does Clippy.

But you keep telling yourself it doesn't suck
and we'll try to keep our laughter to
ourselves.
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Clippy ...
de-void-21165590650301806002836337787023 9th Mar 2010
... was a cute idea intended to help users make better use of Office. However, it was poorly designed, planned and implemented largely because it didn't actually help people do more - it distracted and annoyed them.

You can't win 'em all wink

ME was a Windows release driven by marketing because Allchin had steered the Windows division down the wrong path (remember "Cairo"?) and XP was still late.

Vista was the result of the Windows team scrambling to recover and yet still build an ambitious OS release after Allchin had to cancel the already-late "Longhorn".

Luckily, Allchin "retired" after Vista and the Windows org is headed by the supremely capable Steven Sinofsky (evidence: Win7).

Ribbon, in fact, was actually created under Sinofsky's watch (he used to head Office development) and was born from careful study and analysis of how people used Office. They found that very few people used even half of Office's features, nor knew that many of those features even existed! They also found that most Office users spent an inordinate amount of time in dialog-boxes rather than in front of their document. The ribbon changes this significantly by massively reducing the number of times that users have to enter a dialog and moves access to most features up into the Ribbon, smack in front of the user.

Use the Ribbon for a week and I'll bet you won't want to go back.
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The people who knew all the features before
LiquidLearner 9th Mar 2010
are the people who have a problem with it the most. The more casual Office users are much quicker with the new interface. There are those where the changes are severly disruptive and I understand that. But to completely halt UI progress because 5-10% of the population can't/won't adapt is silly.

And the Access power users I know absolutely love Access 2007. Some of what I've seen savvy users do is pretty amazing.
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That must be why Office 2007 sales suffered...
Sleeper Service Updated - 10th Mar 2010
...oh wait, they didn't.

Not sure why you're ranting about operating systems unless it's to disguise the fact that you don't actually have a point.
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It's not
itguy08 9th Mar 2010
Hate the Ribbon. Period, end of story. Takes up way too much space, is too limiting, and leaves you with a HUH? every time you try to use it.
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You CAN minimize it
bmonster 9th Mar 2010
And it only shows up when you click on the menu. Real estate problem solved. The "HUH" problem will be solved with familiarity.
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So minimize it
KTLA 9th Mar 2010
Uh, just minimize it then. It just shows up when you want it. Useful on netbook-class resolutions.

Also, why do people say "end of story" and then continue to drone on?
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...I don't think I'll take your words that seriously.
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They bite. The only UI Microsoft has that is worse is "IntelliMenus". At
least you can turn those off.
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After two years of using The Ribbon ...
de-void-21165590650301806002836337787023 9th Mar 2010
... I LOVE IT. As do every single customer I've worked with.

If you're resistent to change, you chould choose a different field of interest - carpentry perhaps. The world of IT is about evolution, change, finding and trying new things, etc.

The reason MS added the Ribbon to MacOffice is because they have very detailed metrics on user behavior before, during and after learning how to use the Ribbon. The data is clear: once learned, the Ribbon results in significantly improved usage performance and markedly improved feature consumption.
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If you are in IT, then the only time people call you is when they have
issue. Those with issues with Word, more than likely, do not use Word
much. For those people, Ribbons are not bad.

For people actually trying to get work done, they are a RPITA.

I am a user of Word. The people I work with are Users of Word. We have
500 page documents. Ribbons are a poor pathetic excuse for a UI if you
use the product much.
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I'm not sure we can rely...
bmonster 10th Mar 2010
on your personal experience as an accurate representation of the populace. If you don't like it, fine. I'm in Word all day long as well and it hasn't bothered me. I've been using word since 97. It may depend on what you use word for. I create technical documents, and I like it better. I will say it took me a while to get used to it when I moved from 2003.

Is it possible that people have different opinions on this subject, that are valid? Whether you like or dislike the ribbon is very subjective. If someone disagrees with you it doesn't automatically make them a newbie who has little experience, or a hardened old-school vet who is unable to accept change. If you would like to have a productive discussion, maybe you could give us some examples of specific operations that you perform in Word, and how it takes you longer to do it in 2007 vs 2003.
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Quit with the generalizations: Precisely WHY do you feel that the Ribbon ..
de-void-21165590650301806002836337787023 10th Mar 2010
... is such a RPITA?

How EXACTLY does it slow you down or make your job more difficult?
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With my extensive use of the Ribbon,
nccastle@... 20th Aug 2010
I have found that it is much more efficient. If I want to insert something, I go to the insert tab. If I want to include references, I can go to the references tab. That tab is full of tools I didn't even know existed in Office 2003. That is the problem the Ribbon solves; all of the really great functionality was hidden under 50 layers of menus and dialog boxes. I also love that I only see options for things that are contextually relevant. If I am editing a picture, I see the picture tab. If I am editing the header and footer, I see the header and footer tab. If I am editing a SmartArt graphic, I see the SmartArt graphic tab. I think you can see where I am going with this. I liked the office button (I could find it because it blinked, flashed, told me what it did, and popped out at me), but I recognize that most people didn't like it. That shouldn't be a problem, because that is not on the MacRibbon.
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New != better for the rest of us.
aristotle_z 9th Mar 2010
The Ribbon is not better. It is different and techies like new things for the
sake of newness but guess what? Most techies don't have to use the
office suite much. However, business users and software developers of in
house software do have to use Office a lot of communication (Outlook),
Spreadsheets (scenarios, filtered reports for users) and Word
(documentation). The ribbon interface is a nightmare to use especially in
excel because a lot of functionality is place where you would least expect
it to be.
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Really?
Sleeper Service 9th Mar 2010
Everyone I know hated it to start with and now wouldn't go back to File Menus.

I guess peope who use it actually like it.
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Really, really?
jacarter3 9th Mar 2010
No one in my office does. I wonder why? I don't know because, I admit, I didn't waste money on upgrading to or buying Office 2007.

So what, exactly, is there to like? Please be very specific to this user that started with Word for DOS and used every version since. I still have the keyboard overlays (pieces of plastic to place on your keyboard header) that give the key strokes for shortcuts in the program. Open a word DOC, highlight a sentence and try Shift-F3 for instance.

Honestly, if I am quite capable and happy with the Word UI that I have used for decades, why should I change? It all looks exactly the same when printed, whether I use Word for Windows 2.0, Word 97, Word 2003 or OpenOffice for that matter. What makes the Ribbon so great?
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@JCarter3: Okay, here you go:
de-void-21165590650301806002836337787023 9th Mar 2010
So you're commenting about a feature of a product you don't even own? And you expect us to take your criticisms of it seriously?

Here's a challenge for you: Download and use Office 2010 Beta/RC for a week in place of your current version of Office. Use it to create several documents, spreadsheets and presentations and to manage all your email.

And when you create those documents, don't just type in "the quick brown fox..." - actually use it - use styles and formatting, hover over the style previews, insert some pictures or clip art and hover over all the drawing effects (shadow, 3D, etc). Create a spreadsheet with some sales data (pretend if necessary) and apply conditional formatting to highlight very low or very high sales with one click of your mouse.

And if you've been around as long as I have and avoid using the mouse wherever you can, hit [ALT] and follow the key-chords to access every single item on every tab of the Ribbon. Now try to do all of the above in your version of Office - most of the toolbar items are inaccessable via the keyboard and most others are more key presses away.

Yes, you're going to have to learn a few new things, but one of the most wonderful things about the Ribbon is that you get access to all the features you need FAR more easily and quickly than using nested menus and dialogs.
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Not gonna
jacarter3 Updated - 9th Mar 2010
When I take time to learn things, they are things that will provide or enable new abilities and understanding.

Relearning how to use Office, something I have used, quite well and efficiently, for at least 18 years, is not among that list. I'd rather learn how to use iWork or even OpenOffice more efficiently.

I did try Win 7 RC. Found that it gave access to unshared data from my XP Pro box. I traced it to the junction construct that was developed to create user specific alias to virtual folders with legacy names such as "My Documents" that were intended for backwards compatibility. Dumped that but at least learned something new and novel.

BTW I was commenting on what others have told me. These people are actually rather smart, have used Office for well over 10 years and engage in tech development that you probably couldn't begin to understand. They had no choice in upgrading. I trust their assessment and have no need to experience their frustration just attempt to prove your point.
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"Commenting on what others have told me"
de-void-21165590650301806002836337787023 9th Mar 2010
That, right there, is often the source of the wildest and most innacurate misunderstandings of all time.

Why not take a deep breath and actually try it for yourself.

Why do you THINK Microsoft introduced the Ribbon? Go on - actually think about it.

What's the biggest complaint about Office?

I'll give you a hint: It generally goes like this "I don't even use 1/3 of the features that Office ships with" ... or ... "Word doesn't support footnotes" ... or ... "I didn't know Excel did ".

What the Ribbon does is gets the app's features out in front of the user rather than hiding them behind cascading menus and opaque dialog boxes.

Using the ribbon, I can apply a ton of formatting, alter my page layout, change my doc style, turn on reviews, add a comment, drop a shadow behind a picture after rotating it in 3D ... in just a few mouse clicks ... all without opening a single dialog or traverse a cascading menu.

I know people who genuinely didn't know that Word supported text columnns until they saw the text column button on the ribbon.

Don't limit your own learning because of the ignorance and fundamental inability of others to accept change.

Sometimes, change comes at a short-term cost but delivers significant future savings. The Ribbon is one of those cases.
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It certainly sounds like.

Every recovered crack head tells me that they didn't like the experience. Should I not listen to them as well?
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@JCarter3: No - I don't work for MS marketing
de-void-21165590650301806002836337787023 9th Mar 2010
I run a consulting firm that, amongst other things, helps customers best use their technology investments in order to accelerate their business.

Why have I posted my thoughts on the Ribbon?

Because I fundamentally believe that the Ribbon is one of the most powerful, self-educating user interfaces introduced since the menu. I have seen users productivity increase dramatically after just an hour of simple coaching.

When I see something that does truly hinder one's ability to get one's job done, I call it out.

But when I see people berate a technology because they've heard from a friend who's cousin told them that their brother tried a product and thought it was cr@p, that really p1sses me off.

This is one of those cases.
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My cousin,
jacarter3 9th Mar 2010
a retired Air Force Captain, recently passed away. Thanks for bring that up. Fortunately, he left this world without having to use the Ribbon.

No, the people I hear this from work in my office, in the walled offices next to mine. They have advanced degrees, like me, and we all work on defense technology for space (instrument payloads and radio systems) as well as ground based military technology (photonic acoustic sensing, jam proof radio transceivers for IED disposal robots etc.). We do nothing other than design, develop, implement and test technology that is nothing short of brand new, bleeding edge.

It is their experience that I speak of. No one in my family or set of friends has ever used Office 2007 and likely never will. My colleagues' experiences and my observations of these give me much more confidence than your insults and obvious agenda.
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Oh, and let me guess...
jacarter3 Updated - 9th Mar 2010
you wrote a book on to use Office 2007 and how great it is, right?

More users, more potential sales - brilliant!
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@jacarter3: Sorry for your loss ...
de-void-21165590650301806002836337787023 9th Mar 2010
... but you assume WAY too much.

I can assure you that I have not, nor never will write a book about how to use Office.

I am a systems and software engineer and spent the first several years of my career designing and building weapon aiming systems using stereoscopic infra-red cameras feeding a 96 processor hypercube. I also wrote software to control several image processing devices that post-processed camera footage recorded by Tornado's on bombing runs.

When working on these systems, I met many exceptionally gifted people in many areas of analysis, design, engineering, and management, but at no point was I willing to assume that just because someone might have a PhD in Aeronautical Engineering or Pure Maths, that they'd be an expert in (then Wordperfect) Word. Or Excel. Or whatever.

In fact, our (non-degree qualified) clerical staff ran rings around ALL of us when it came to effective use of word processors and spreadsheets.

My observations and suggestions were accurate and factually based. If you took some offence at my pointing out your ignorance based upon your own admission of never having used the product upon which you are opining here, then that's your issue, not mine.

I have tried to share some background and actual real-world experience with you which you choose to ignore. I even gave you some suggestions of things you could try with the Ribbon in order to experience how and why it is - I doubt you'll even bother trying and will instead continue to impose your uneducated misgivings. That, again is your own issue.

I guess I have nothing left to say to you unless you're willing to actually gain some personal experience of the Ribbon and then share with us your views based on having actually used it as opposed to parroting and amplifying others' hang-ups.
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"If you took some offence.."
jacarter3 9th Mar 2010
Of course I took offense. your insult and ad hominem attack is offensive.

Nor do I wish to waste time and bandwidth to download Office 2010 beta (some 1.5 GB), use an unknown amount of my laptop's drive space or spend several days fumbling with Office 2007 for what can only be called a beta application that may cause other problems on my workday machine. That's not a "value proposition" that passes muster. I already did that with Win 7 RC and wasted a great deal of time.

I cannot conceive of any reason for your zealous promotion of this stuff that does not have an agenda that profits you in some way. That's another very good reason to hesitate.

I'll wait until a real live human being, one that I know and trust, tells me that I really ought to move to a Ribbon interface. It's been a cold winter, so that day may come even before hell freezes over, but not likely.
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@JCarter3: Do you always wait until others tell you what to think?
de-void-21165590650301806002836337787023 9th Mar 2010
Why not actually try something and learn for yourself rather than relying on others to form your opinion for you?

BTW: Had you even bothered to visit the Office 2010 download page and hit the "more info" link you'd have seen how much HDD space you'd need: http://us2.office2010beta.microsoft.com/product.aspx?sku=10199914&culture=en-US

1.5GB to install - a significant chunk of this is freed if you delete the installer.

Again, try it or not, that's up to you, but don't expect push-back if you make false, uneducated claims about a product you've never even used.
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nt
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@JCarter3: The last thing I'd want ...
de-void-21165590650301806002836337787023 9th Mar 2010
... is for you to think what I think.

All I've asked you to do is try the product and evaluate it yourself rather than parrot the claims of others.

If you try it and can articulate what you didn't like, THEN we can have a sensible conversation.

Otherwise every time we say "actually, we really like the ribbon because ... ", you'll just come back with "my friend Billy Bob hates it".

That's not a discussion.
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So you're going to criticise something...
Sleeper Service 10th Mar 2010
...you're not even prepared to try?

I love it when peope tell me software I use and prefer is inferior to the alternatives - which I have also used - even when they haven't used it themselves and therefore only have a subjective opinion based on what they want to hear to go on.

Goodbye credibility. It was nice knowing you.
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A little more...
jacarter3 9th Mar 2010
"And if you've been around as long as I have and avoid using the mouse wherever you can, hit [ALT] and follow the key-chords to access every single item on every tab of the Ribbon. Now try to do all of the above in your version of Office - most of the toolbar items are inaccessable via the keyboard and most others are more key presses away."

So Alt-o-f to format text and the tab key to select each option in sequence is inaccessible or just too hard? Do you use only the formats that come with Word? And WTH is a "key-chord?"
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A key chord ...
de-void-21165590650301806002836337787023 9th Mar 2010
... just like on the piano, is when you press a combination of keys. E.g. [ALT] + [F] to get to the file menu.

The problem with chords is that the number of chords are highly limited by the proximity of the keys and the user's ability to press the keys "all at once". For example, Try pressing [ALT] + [SHIFT] + [CTRL] + [R]. Horrible.

What happens when you have to press [ALT] + [P] + [2] to cause something to happen because there are several other actions whose main key shortcut is [P]. Nightmare.

The ribbon takes a key sequence instead.

[ALT] followed by [H] followed by [FT] (format text) brings up the word-art text formatting drop-down.

In Outlook, [ALT] [R] [A] is reply-all and [ALT] [R] [P] is reply to sender.

What's more, the ribbon shows you the key sequences you need to reach every single action on the ribbon as dynamic hints.

Sure, you'll have to learn some new keystrokes, but its easy to do when the Ribbon tells you what they are! No more having to have a photocopy of the keyboard shortcuts for Word and another for Excel pinned to your cork board behind your screen wink
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So, I can use
jacarter3 Updated - 9th Mar 2010
a key-chord that I know in Office 2003, such as Alt-o then, and not simultaneously, press f and do what I need to format text. However, you would have me not only abandon that, but unlearn it and learn something new just to do the same thing. That does not sound like progress.

Further having an Alt key on each side of my keyboard tends to obviate your claim that some combinations are difficult unless, of course, Office 2007 makes you press more than 2 keys at a time. Yes I can see how that may be difficult. Thank you for enlightening me...
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@JCarter3: Yes
de-void-21165590650301806002836337787023 9th Mar 2010
Sometimes we have to recognize that our current approach leads down a dead-end road.

The original approach of menus with two-key chords was flawed because we ended up unable to add shortcuts to new menus because all the letters available in the new menu's word were already used by existing menus. What to do? Change the shortcuts for the existing menus? Then we screw up all the existing users' learned habits anyway. And it doesn't solve the problem long-term.

Also, there is no common, scalable standard for accessing buttons on a toolbar via the keyboard ... much less accessing all buttons on all possible toolbars.

[CTRL] + [F] and [CTRL] + [K] is inconsistent in Outlook depending upon whether the cursor is in the TO/BCC/Subject box or in the body of the mail.

Like IPv4 addresses, two key chords DO NOT SCALE.

This is why the Ribbon's approach of key sequences makes so much more sense because it's infinitely scalable and, because the ribbon knows what each key shortcut is, can help tell the user which keys they need to hit in order to access unfamiliar commands.

Sure, you'll have to learn a few new key sequences, but it's not as hard as you might think - the key is to be open and willing to accept a little change now for a big benefit long-term.
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Glad not everyone has your attitude...
LiquidLearner 9th Mar 2010
or we'd all still be using WordPerfect for DOS with it's F-key overlays. In fact I still know a handful of people who refuse to give that up. Obviously because it has a far superior interface because anything that requires a learning curve is obviously bad.

You said you work on DoD stuff? Makes me even more nervous for my brothers that are out on the front lines when someone designing the equipment you reference is too obtuse to even speak from experience.
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@LiquidLearner
jacarter3 Updated - 9th Mar 2010
I do have experience with using Office. My use of Office differs dramatically from yours. I use what works well for me. Your opinion that "Obviously because it has a far superior interface" is just that, an opinion. So far, including de-void's suggestions, nothing has been presented to indicate and no evidence has given to conclude that the Ribbon is superior in any way. It's merely a different way to do what I can now do with ease in Office 2003.

My experience regarding the ribbon in Office 2007 is completely personal. I have have first hand testimony (including the cries and curses from the adjoining ofices in all too frequent occasion) and seen first hand how incredibly frustrating and difficult that using the Ribbon can be for my colleagues. You can call that obtuse if you want. I can say that I already know all that I need to know about it. What I know is far from from insignificant regarding the Ribbon. My first observation is that it is extremely wasteful regarding pixel space which is a premium for someone that works on a laptop 100% of the time. So I ask, do I need to wallow in pig slop to know that it stinks or do you believe it's possible to infer that from a distance?

As far as learning curve, I reserve that time to learn how to do things that I cannot now do. The Ribbon does not offer any new ability and represents only a drain on my available time, which is all too precious. I would much rather take that same time and learn new proficiencies in MatLab, MatchCAD, SolidWorks, Code V and FRED software which do have upgrade cycles where real features are added instead of just changing file formats and rearranging the UI.

The "claim" is that the Ribbon will save me time. When exactly will that start to occur? How much time and frustration will I need to endure in order to see that return on my investment in time?

Most importantly, why is it so freaking important to you that I agree with your assessment?
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@JCarter3: Consolidating the discussion to this branch:
de-void-21165590650301806002836337787023 9th Mar 2010
You've made it very clear. You're happy to continue in your ignorance and are not willing to explore the claims and statements that I and others have made.

Fair enough - that's a decision that only you can make.

But as to "why is it so freaking important to you that I agree with your assessment" let me make this clear: It's not important. At all. I can't speak for everyone else around here, but I do not sell books, training kits nor get rich quick schemes. I gain no benefit from you trying or not trying Office 2007/2010.

Having said that, I don't believe that others should be put-off learning whether the Ribbon might work for them because of your ignorant opinions and so offered an alternative view based on actual experience - both my own as well as my many clients.

I provided you with some of the reasoning and background behind the Ribbon (since I know many on the Office team who directly worked on this feature) and I shared some examples of how the Ribbon eliminates many issues that the old menu & toolbar systems do not, and I offered some suggestions of things to try to experience for yourself what the Ribbon might offer you.

Again, if you're happy to accept the claims of others without educating yourself first-hand, then stay with XP and Office 2003 and remain happy in your ignorance.
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First you tell me how unimportant it is that I agree with you and then go on to explain in great detail why it is important.

Great argument!

Well someone who has my identical assessment, also knows of no one that likes it, and has a great deal more experience using the silly thing suggested that you go out and meet more people. That's a great idea and then you can use me as your whipping boy to prove my ignorance and convince them of your much greater experience and corresponding viewpoint.

Just stop whipping me now. I have already explained many times not only that I won't install Office 2010 beta but I have also explained why. Also note that the majority of posts here agree with my assessment that the Ribbon sucks. Go whip on them for a while please.

Clearly you have a stake in the adoption of the Ribbon UI. I don't. And I don't need the Ribbon either.
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Then remain happy in your ignorance
de-void-21165590650301806002836337787023 9th Mar 2010
You refuse to install Office 2007 / 2010 and refuse to evaluate the Ribbon yourself. You'd rather have others think for you and randomly choose to adopt their views and opinions rather than form your own.

That's fine - if you're happy to live that way, then go be happy.

But, as I said above, don't expect push-back when you make inaccurate, uneducated claims about something you've never even used.
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@Jcarter: Clarification
LiquidLearner 9th Mar 2010
Your opinion that "Obviously because it has a far superior interface" is just that, an opinion.

This was actually in regards to WordPerfect 5 for DOS. Because there are some users out there who still prefer the interface it thereby renders all subsequent interface designs useless. I was being sarcastic and showing the ignorance of your posts. You declare the Ribbon is a "terrible interface" yet you've not used it nor provided any intelligent rationale as to why it's so bad. All we have heard from you is that you hear curses from your neighbor's cubicles.

You base 100% of your opinion on 3rd hand knowledge of the product. You can't tell me your "First hand experience comes from first hand testimonials" as that is what 3rd hand knowledge is by definition. I don't care if you use it. I only care that you stop making ignorant statement on a subject which you clearly know nothing.

I acknowledge that those who were extremely proficient with previous versions of Office are going to have the hardest time with the Ribbon. I even understand why. The Ribbon was designed to expose features you obviously alredy knew quite well. That's not the case for 90% of the users out there. Microsoft should not stand still to appeal to you and forsake the 90% of the people who benefit from the transition to the Ribbon.

Find an alternative. There is nothing out there that is as full featured as office. And Office 2003 is still supported so you can cling to that until someone decides to compete with MS's offering. The big claim about OOo, Office's closest competitor, is that it does the most commonly used functions of office. Since you're a power user those limited functions are a problem.
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@jacarter3
Pete "athynz" Athens 9th Mar 2010
This right here: I don't know because, I admit, I didn't waste money on upgrading to or buying Office 2007. makes every single objection to the ribbon you have null and void. How can you seriously post on how you feel the ribbon sucks if you've never used it? Until you put your hands on Office 2007 or Office 2010 don't bother arguing the point... it's like complaining about the outcome of an election you didn't bother to vote in. Full of sound and fury signifying nothing.
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So let me understand this...
jacarter3 9th Mar 2010
If I see someone stick a fork in an electrical outlet and tell me it was painful and they didn't like it, I should try it it too?

If everyone that I know of that has stuck a fork in an electrical outlet tells me it was painful and they didn't like, I should try it too?

That's essentially your whole argument distilled to its very essence.

For the record, I have made no objections to the Ribbon. I have only stated that I have no indications of a positive outcome for upgrading to Office 2007 and the Ribbon. In fact and to the contrary, I have had many indications of a negative outcome.

Now why would I invest time and money on that?
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There's a VERY big difference ...
de-void-21165590650301806002836337787023 9th Mar 2010
... between watching the effect of someone sticking a fork in a plug socket and trying a piece of software that costs you nothing but time.

If one of your friends told you never to tread on the cracks in the pavement otherwise you'll blow up, would you believe them?

If one of your friends told you that picking your nose will make your head cave in, would you be tempted ... just ... to ... try?

If one of your friends was a drug addict and told you that crack was the path to enlightenment and untold happiness, you'd be happy to try it, right? Just once. I mean, you could quit at any time, right? Maybe next time. Perhaps.

I am not suggesting for a moment that you (nor anybody else) should try crack, but we should take the views expressed by others with a VERY large grain of salt and should, if it poses little risk to ourselves, our family and friends, our livelihood, etc., experience what we can to judge for ourselves whether its something that we feel can help us.

Blindly accepting stated facts is one of mankind's biggest tragedies and has resulted in untold suffering and hindered human development.

The Scientific method was the result of rejecting established wisdom and actually trying things, measuring their impact and judging their benefit/effectiveness based upon the data.

THAT is all I have been advocating: that you try something and make your own mind up rather than parrot the opinions of others.
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Yes, here's the real difference
jacarter3 9th Mar 2010
People who post on this forum: information value weight = 0%

People I work with everyday: information value weight = 70%-100%

Get it yet?

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