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First legal shots fired at Google's VP8 codec

By | February 11, 2011, 9:40am PST

Summary: Google wants to make its VP8 video codec a patent-free standard. The competition just threw down the first big challenge to that strategy. MPEG-LA, lhe group that manages the licensing of patents for the H.264 codec, is forming a patent pool for VP8. What does this mean?

11-Feb-2011 Noon PST Updated to include response from MPEG LA (at end of post).

Update 2: Added Google statement

Google wants to make its VP8 video codec a patent-free standard. The competition just threw down the first big challenge to that strategy.

MPEG LA, the group that manages the licensing of patents for the H.264 codec, announced today that it is forming a patent pool and gathering claims from companies that believe they have patents essential to the VP8 codec:

MPEG LA, LLC, world leader in alternative one-stop patent licenses, announces a call for patents essential to the VP8 video codec specification used to deliver video images. The VP8 video codec is defined by the WebM Project at http://www.webmproject.org.

In order to participate in the creation of, and determine licensing terms for, a joint VP8 patent license, any party that believes it has patents that are essential to the VP8 video codec specification is invited to submit them for a determination of their essentiality by MPEG LA’s patent evaluators. At least one essential patent is necessary to participate in the process, and initial submissions should be made by March 18, 2011. Although only issued patents will be included in the license, in order to participate in the license development process, patent applications with claims that their owners believe are essential to the specification and likely to issue in a patent also may be submitted. Further information, along with terms and procedures governing patent submissions, can be found at http://www.mpegla.com/main/pid/vp8/default.aspx.

This development isn’t a complete surprise. As I noted previously, Larry Horn, CEO of MPEG LA, has gone on record with suggestions that this day would arrive:

The license offered by MPEG LA charges a royalty for decoders wherever or however deployed. In addition, no one in the market should be under the misimpression that other codecs such as Theora are patent-free. Virtually all codecs are based on patented technology, and many of the essential patents may be the same as those that are essential to AVC/H.264. Therefore, users should be aware that a license and payment of applicable royalties is likely required to use these technologies developed by others, too.

Today’s brief announcement raises many more questions than it answers. Have MPEG-LA and Google been in discussions about this issue? How strongly does Google believe in the strength of the patents it purchased that underlie the VP8 standard? (Remember, this technology wasn’t developed in-house.)

More to the point: If a patent pool is successfully formed, will it license those patents for free? Patent expert Florian Mueller says that outcome is "unlikely" and says "Despite my dislike for software patents, if I had to bet money, I would bet it on MPEG LA, not on Google." I agree.

How long will this take to play out? Mueller notes that submissions of patents for inclusion in the pool aren’t going to be posted in public, and forming the pool could take some time after the close of submissions, as the pool members agree on terms and revenue-sharing arrangements:

I don’t know whether MPEG LA will publish the list of patents identified after technical evaluation of all submissions, or only after successful conclusion of commercial negotiations. The latter seems more likely to me. One way or the other, we may only be months away from seeing a list of patents found to read on WebM/VP8.

I have requests in to both MPEG-LA and Google for additional comments and will update when I hear back.

Update: An MPEG LA spokesperson responds to a few questions via e-mail:

Q: What’s the role of MPEG LA in all this?

A: MPEG LA provides voluntary licenses of convenience to users enabling them to obtain coverage under the essential patents of many different patent holders as an alternative to negotiating separate licenses with each. As such, we provide a service bringing together many patent holders with many technology users so that technical innovations can be made widely available. MPEG LA takes the market as we find it. It is the marketplace of users that makes the decision what technologies they want, and where an alternative one-stop license would be of convenience to them to help reduce their uncertainty and risk in using a technology, MPEG LA makes an alternative license available.

Q: Does this indicate that MPEG-LA does not agree with Google’s assertion that it controls all patents associated with the VP8 video codec?

A: Yes, as we have said in the past, we believe VP8 uses many patents owned by different parties. To the extent VP8 includes technology owned by others, then a pool license which removes uncertainties regarding patent rights and royalties by making that technology widely available on the same terms to everyone would be beneficial to the market.

I also asked whether MPEG LA and Google have engaged in any direct talks. I didn’t get a direct answer, just this fairly vague bit of boilerplate:

As to your second question, MPEG LA’s call for patents is open to anyone with essential VP8 patents including Google, if they should have any.

 If I had to guess, I would bet that means no.

Update 2: Google still hasn’t responded to my e-mail request, but The Register just printed the text of a statement it received from a Google spokesperson:

"MPEG LA has alluded to a VP8 pool since WebM launched - this is nothing new," the statement reads. "The web succeeds with open, community-developed innovation, and the WebM Project brings the same principles to web video.

"The vast majority of the industry supports free and open development, and we’re in the process of forming a broad coalition of hardware and software companies who commit to not assert any IP claims against WebM. We are firmly committed to the project and establishing an open codec for HTML5 video.”

The statement notably does not include any promise of indemnification by Google against any patent claims that might be asserted by a third party - like the prospective members of the MPEG LA patent pool.

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Ed Bott is an award-winning technology writer with more than two decades' experience writing for mainstream media outlets and online publications.

Disclosure

Ed Bott

Ed Bott is a freelance technical journalist and book author. All work that Ed does is on a contractual basis.

Since 1994, Ed has written more than 25 books about Microsoft Windows and Office. Along with various co-authors, Ed is completely responsible for the content of the books he writes. As a key part of his contractual relationship with publishers, he gives them permission to print and distribute the content he writes and to pay him a royalty based on the actual sales of those books. Ed's books written prior to fall 2011 have been distributed by Que Publishing (a division of Pearson Education) and by Microsoft Press. As of November 2011, Ed is a partner in the independent publishing company Fair Trade Digital Exchange, which exclusively publishes his books.

On occasion, Ed accepts consulting assignments. In recent years, he has worked as an expert witness in cases where his experience and knowledge of Microsoft and Microsoft Windows have been useful. In each such case, his compensation is on an hourly basis, and he is hired as a witness, not an advocate.

Ed does not own stock or have any other financial interest in Microsoft or any other software company. He owns 500 shares of stock in EMC Corporation, which was purchased before the company's acquisition of VMware. In addition, he owns 350 shares of stock in Intel Corporation, purchased more than two years ago. All stocks are held in retirement accounts for long-term growth.

Ed does not accept gifts from companies he covers. All hardware products he writes about are purchased with his own funds or are review units covered under formal loan agreements and are returned after the review is complete.

Biography

Ed Bott

Ed Bott is an award-winning technology writer with more than two decades' experience writing for mainstream media outlets and online publications. He's served as editor of the U.S. edition of PC Computing and managing editor of PC World; both publications had monthly paid circulation in excess of 1 million during his tenure. He is the author of more than 25 books on Microsoft Windows and Office, including the recently released Windows 7 Inside Out.

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RE: First legal shots fired at Google's VP8 codec
liezelee1109 14th Oct
Google also released the source code for libvpx, a reference implementation of VP8, under a BSD-like license, later adding a patent grant.- Dr. Jerry M. Foster
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This is why MPEG-LA cannot be trusted as a standard. A web standard like HTML, CSS do not get involved in patent lawsuits.
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@tatiGmail

I am not sure what trusting the MPEG-LA has to do with this.

It's far too early to tell, but if VP8 is, in fact, infringing it would seem more dangerous to "trust Google" for 'open' standards.

While VP8 hasn't been found to infringe on any patents yet (most likely because they just started looking) sometimes it's better to go with the devil you know (H.264) than the devil you don't (VP8).
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@Rich Miles well, H264 is full of patent lawsuits, we cannot make it a web standard then. Have you heard anybody getting sued for using HTML? CSS?
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RE: First legal shots fired at Google's VP8 codec
Rich Miles Updated - 11th Feb 2011
@tatiGmail H.264 is a patent portfolio you can license. It is "full of patents" not "patent lawsuits". Does the MPEG-LA sue people for using the technology covered by those patents? Yes. As Ed has documented on several occassions it is not cost prohibitive to license.

My guess is that you don't like software patents. I definitely think the system is broken, but I actually think patent portfolios like MPEG-LA are a pretty clever innovation given the current state of patents.

Google may have good intentions by releasing VP8 to the world, but Google may not own all of the technology in it. They might, but only further investigation will tell.
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Rich Miles, good point
AllKnowingAllSeeing 11th Feb 2011
but Google may not own all of the technology in it.

That is the issue with Google: sure they use open source software for everything they do, but nobody outside of Google gets to see it.

Who knows what IP they may have in their search code, so you're right, without seeing VP8, nobody can be certain it isn't infringing, even if unintentionaly.
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@AllKnowingAllSeeing

What are talking about "without seeing VP8"? It's open source. You can download the source code.
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@tatiGmail - Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Because there are no patent suits involving SGML, HTML, XML, etc., right?

As owners of patents potentially infringed by Google, the MPEG-LA are exercising their legal right, and imperitive, to protect their patents. If they did not, their patents could be declared null and void.

Whether their claims will be upheld in court we'll have to wait and see, but the MPEG-LA is well within its rights to protect its patents.
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@bitcrazed There is no legal imperative to enforce patents. You are perhaps confusing patents with another form of IP protection.
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@rlawler Well, sort of. You can certainly never enforce your patent if you want. That's fine. But if you don't enforce it, you can't later change your mind.
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@rlawler - if a patent holder does not act to defend its patent in the light of blatant patent infringement, the patent may successfully be invalidated on appeal.
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@bitcrazed

Right, bitcrazed. If a patent holder doesn't defend it's patents, they can lose the right to enforce those patents in the future if they knew that someone was infringing and did nothing about it.

Really, this shows why software patents are a BAD IDEA, and why they should be banned except for WHOLE PROGRAMS like Windows 7, KMPlayer, etc.
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Let's be realistic here
K B 12th Feb 2011
@bitcrazed The MPEG-LA patent holders are exercising their "right" because they stand to lose money if VP8 gains broad adoption.

Most patents can be argued a hundred different ways to the point where "infringement" becomes a vague term. This is an attempt to cause a big legal mess, nothing more, nothing less. The patent holders are trying to find anything in their arsenal that they can to instill fear, uncertainty and doubt about for any company considering using VP8.
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@bitcrazed

"As owners of patents potentially infringed by Google, the MPEG-LA are exercising their legal right, and imperitive, to protect their patents. If they did not, their patents could be declared null and void."

No. You are thinking of Trademarks. With a patent I can fire the first shot the day before it expires. But it makes economic sense to nail them a lot earlier.

Go here for clarity.
http://www.uspto.gov/
http://www.answers.com/topic/trademark
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@bitcrazed MPEG-LA does not own any patents related to VP8 yet... That's why they're asking companies involved in MPEG-LA to begin submitting patents to the pool to challenge VP8. MPEG-LA is just a group of companies who got together to stifle video innovation, AKA a patent troll. MPEG-LA is detestable, and run by people who are outright horrible people. If everyone who works for MPEG-LA were to drop dead and go to hell today, I would celebrate.
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@bitcrazed
How their calling (including Google) for a making a pool is related to exercising their legal rights? Do you mean to say that they have found out what all patent infringement of MPEG LA (H264) is done by VP8 and challenging it in a court? Then why this open invitation to everybody who finds out that any of their patents may be being infringed by VP8. I perceive it a strategic direct threat to content providers and companies who may switch to VP8 to to avoid license fee from MPEG LA. They are saying that we have started this exercise of determining patent infringements by VP8 and warning that once it is found out and established, you can't escape license fee anyway. So, better be with H 264 and MPEG LA since it already has an identified pool of patents and is clear about its licensing policy. Additionally, it is less likely that there can be any patent infringement lawsuit against it.
Some wild speculations about it on the basis of their behavior, strategy and alliances. Make them ubiquitous and then later when content providers also form unions, lobbies and are able to put pressure with better negotiable standings, pass on the license fee share to the end users in the absence of any viable alternative.
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@tatiGmail: We may think that we know what you mean, but MPEG-LA is not a "standard," nor even a standards body. They're sort of the Borg Collective of large, web-based technology patent holders. Yes, HTML 5 is a standard, but MPEG-LA has no direct influence over it (though many of its members certainly do). HTML, as a standard, is "owned" by W3C, not MPEG-LA. And the owners avoided naming any specific codecs (not to be confused with protocols and the like) in their specs and standards, specifically to steer well clear of this crap, and because there may be no truly open and free codecs to name. (That remains to be seen, which is what this is actually all about.)

Now, we're certainly all allowed (and encouraged!) to hate and/or distrust MPEG-LA, but they don't own the standards, and the standards bodies are NOT involved in any lawsuits.
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@tatiGmail No. This is what will happen when you trust Google and their "Open Open Open" mantra. It's BS. A technology does not become patent free by fiat. The courts will determine whether VP8 is patent encumbered, not Google.
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@tatiGmail MPEG LA doesn't promise indemnification either, but Ed Bot smartly omits this.
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This move is a good thing...
BillDem 14th Feb 2011
@tatiGmail
The fact that MPEG-LA is challenging VP8 early is a good thing. If there are patent problems with VP8, you want to know as soon as possible. If they are unable to prove that VP8 violates their patents, this will be a HUGE boost to VP8 as an open standard. If they do find patent violations, Google will be able to address them. In the end, we should all hope that Google is able to create a standard we can all use which is free and clear for anyone to use without worrying about legal ramifications. This is just one necessary step in that process.
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@BillDem They're not looking for google to "address" them. They're looking to collect a royalty from every browser maker... They're looking to wreak havoc on our ability to set standards without giving them money. They're selfish pricks.
Good luck whit you. replica watches uk
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You can only go with free, open...
MacCanuck 11th Feb 2011
and sponge off of the hard work and creativity of others for so long before someone has to pay the piper happy
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@MacCanuck That's cute and all but VP8 was developed closed source. Google simply bought it and open sourced it. So yes the piper was paid. Think before you troll.
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@storm14k

He isn't trolling. There is NOTHING preventing Google from changing the license terms and expecting to get paid for VP8 in the future. At least MPEG-LA is honest about the fact that with all the hard work and investment they put into this thing, they want to get paid a nominal fee for it.
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@storm14k
Which version of the GPL was VP8 open sourced with? I'm curious so we can pull out the relevant sections to shut Lerianis10 up.
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I'll be rooting for VP8
Kangaruhs 11th Feb 2011
I'm not too fond of where MPEG-LA wants to take us with H.264. They are licensing for free until they become THE standard, at which point the "free" will gradually turn into "not free". Google, on the other hand, is always interested in a free internet payed by advertisers. They will always license their services, including VP8 on HTML5, for free. That is how their business model works. The more they become a standard (they don't have to become THE standard), the more free stuff we get, and the more Google makes on ad dollars (and the more businesses, small and large, are able get their brands in front of eye balls).
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@Kangaruhs
the more we use free products, the more we give our private information for free. happy
@Rama.NET
I use an open source OS on my router and my private information is being accessed, how?
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@daikon, I think he is refering to Google's products, whom Google feels it's OK to crawl.
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@Rama.NET Like using this website right?
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@Rama.NET This is about Free as in freedom and free as in royalty-free... It's a separate issue from analytics and advertising. This is about being free to implement a specification without having to pay an extortion fee from a mafia-esque group of patent trolls (the lowest form of parasitic life, not even human, possibly even archaeobacterial).
@Kangaruhs
Google could also do the exact same thing. They are a single corporation that owns, controls and licenses VP8. All they have to do is promise to pay for everybody's legal costs if VP8 is found to be infringing. Why won't they do that?
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@Kangaruhs

With all due respect, who is to say that as some point in the future Google won't pull a MPEG-LA and want money for their codec?
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RE: First legal shots fired at Google's VP8 codec
snoop0x7b Updated - 14th Feb 2011
@Lerianis10 Google has already assigned the patents to the public domain. That means they can't do that. MPEG-LA has just offered patent license terms that are free for a temporary period of time, which differs in that it explicitly allows them to do what they're doing (being low-life scum bags), whereas google has made it impossible for them to do that. You can't remove something from the public domain.
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Why Google can't MPEG-LA VP8
brendthess 14th Feb 2011
@Lerianis10 The "VP8 Bitstream Specification License" is "... perpetual, worldwide, non-exclusive, no-charge, royalty-free, irrevocable..." Especially note the word irrevocable. Now that the code is out there, they can't change their mind.

Actually, there is one way to lose your license - if you sue saying that the license violates some patent. Question: Are any of the VP8 patents included in the H.264 bundle? Would the permissions to license be automatically revoked if litigation on VP8's potential infringement was instituted by MPEG-LA? Or, to put it another way - could MPEG-LA be shooting itself in the foot - in full color video, of course.
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MPEG issues press release: "MPEG envisages royalty-free MPEG video coding standard" http://bit.ly/hFMdGd
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Contributr
Not the same thing
Ed Bott 13th Feb 2011
@Rob Glidden

MPEG is a standards body. MPEG LA is a licensing authority. They are not the same, not even related.
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No different
Tim Patterson 11th Feb 2011
To me this is no different than the mob running extortion schemes. It's rotten, it stinks, and these people are evil, greedy #$*%&@'s.

Just because they have armies of lawyers who keep them within the letter of the "laws" (which were passed by the worst Congresspersons money could buy) it doesn't mean it's right.

Those who lobby for and support software patents are the scum of the earth.
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@Tim Patterson - you spend years and possibly considerable amounts of money and resources to invent something. You're granted a patent for your invention to allow you to benefit from your ingenuity and hard work.

This is wrong, how?
@bitcrazed

You can be paid for work, but your ideas are worthless, even if it changes the world. It is a Socialist/Communist concept, even if Stallman thinks he's better than that (he thinks he's better than everybody else anyway).

If you take Stallman's concepts and summarize them, basically he says that royalties are wrong.

...so how come he collects a 5-figure+ salary for every speech he makes??
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@bitcrazed yeah these same are the same peeps that feel downloading music for free is fine too.
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RE: First legal shots fired at Google's VP8 codec
snoop0x7b Updated - 14th Feb 2011
@bitcrazed This is wrong because it's designed to prevent any video codec from existing without paying them. The patents are written such that any video codec, regardless of who writes it infringes. Members of MPEG-LA are members because they'd like to see no one else write codecs... It isn't about their hard work, it's about:

1. Patenting obvious mathematics, such as video compression.
2. Suing anyone who makes a video codec that competes with one of theirs so that they can continue to charge licensing fees for their own codecs (such as H.264).

They threaten and sue any and everyone who writes a video codec. That's how it works. Theora strived to be free of any of their patents, and yet they're talking about assembling a patent pool to go after anyone who implements the Theora standard. It really isn't about "just protecting hard work" it's about abusing the patent system in order to hold back the advance of technology so they can continue to collect royalties, even on software that they didn't write. This is extortion, plain and simple.
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Better patent trolls available
guihombre Updated - 11th Feb 2011
If you have a good patent that can block VC8, you'd be better off controlling the licensing yourself. Less dilute than handing over to MPEG-LA.

Trouble with a pool is lots of those patents are just USPTO fluff, worthless garbage, yet they get a cut of your profits.

There's also the other problem with MPEG-LA, and that's its sister company MobileMedia. Same CEO, but that buys a pool of patents related to the MPEGLA ones, so he himself can get a cut of this free money the trolls are making without the MPEGLA overhead.

http://thepriorart.typepad.com/the_prior_art/2010/04/mobilemedia-ideas-v-apple.html
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Good. Time for this to get settled.
Ed Bott, I have a question that I want you to answer honestly.
What in this little report hasn't been known since VP8 was released. MPEG-LA has been talking about a pool for VP8 simply because it was something that they where working on... something that since VP8 release they have been working to form one, but only after Google released the codec. Of course the question here simply is, does a patent pool that has formed after the release "non-exclusive, no-charge, royalty-free, irrevocable" licence have ANY kind of validity?
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Contributr
Public announcement today
Ed Bott 11th Feb 2011
@IssacS

It is NEWS because MPEG LA publicly issued a call for companies to come forward if they have patents they believe read on the VP8 standard. Everyone (myself included) certainly *suspected* and maybe even "knew in their hearts* that this day would come, but the actual announcement changes the landscape formally.

And the fact that Google placed the code it purchased into the public domain is irrelevant to the question of whether that code infringes on existing patents.
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@Ed Bott
>'certainly *suspected* and maybe even "knew in their hearts* that this day would come,'

Translated: Hoped.
Ok, before I start... I am using some rudimentary understanding of law. It's by no means perfect... nor am I a lawyer.
@Ed Bott
Again, that that is not much when MPEG-LA has more or less stated that they were doing so. That said, this more or less proves that they are not blowing smoke.
But they have yet to take this before a judge to determine that question (my question) to be answered, so are they going to take that risk?

The timing of this is rather important, but this would mean that MPEG-LA would welcome legal scrutiny of the VP8 patent pool should they be right. Something that it not known to them to do.



In another news, this little spat simply might not matter should MPEG so as they announced, after the March meeting. Which does sound oddly familiar.
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Contributr
You're confused
Ed Bott 13th Feb 2011
@IssacS

This isn't about "going before a judge." Big companies with deep pockets don't want to be sued. Google asserts that there are no patent issues with VP8, but they will not indemnify other companies who choose to use it.

What a patent pool does is provide assurance that a technology can be used without having to fear being blindsided by a patent suit later.

As for the MPEG press release, that is a standards body. It is completely separate from MPEG LA. H.264 is also a standard. It is encumbered by patents that are administered by MPEG LA, at what most objective observers would consider reasonable costs.
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@Ed Bott & @IssacS

One thing you have to consider is that Google thinks it has all (read "several directly pertinent") patents it needs to practice the VP8 codec unencumbered. Assuming that Google is correct, then Google's patents must be "essential" to the patent pool MPEG LA is forming. Also assuming that Google would not participate in the pool, then MPEG LA's most likely motivation is to patent deadlock VP8 - kill it. No one will want to license the MPEG LA pool to use VP8 if Google can then sue them on the VP8 patents (not sure if Google would since they want it to be "open," but they might want it to be "open" on their terms).

I can see MPEG LA's motivation - either kill VP8 so focus is still directed to VC8 or MPEG-4 or hope Google remains focused on "openness" and take royalties for licensees that want to use VP8 (best case).

The motivation for patent contributors to participate is a bit harder to understand. Each contributor gets such a relatively small piece, it may make more sense not to offer their patents for consideration. Inclusion does make their patents more valuable in the short term. But where they could really make money is by waiting until adoption and then selling the patents to a non-practicing entity (a.k.a. patent troll).

The patent landscape sucks and Google's apparent altruism will not lead them to any escape from that.
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Google also released the source code for libvpx, a reference implementation of VP8, under a BSD-like license, later adding a patent grant.- Dr. Jerry M. Foster

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