[Update, 4-Oct: Microsoft has introduced the Software Protection Platform, which contains features very similar to what I describe here. See Busted! What happens when WGA attacks and the accompanying image gallery.]
[Update, 30-June 8:40AM PDT: Microsoft responds, sort of. Details in this follow-up post.] Two weeks ago, I wrote about my serious objections to Microsoft’s latest salvo in the war against unauthorized copies of Windows. Two Windows Genuine Advantage components are being pushed onto users’ machines with insufficient notification and inadequate quality control, and the result is a big mess. (For details, see Microsoft presses the Stupid button.) Guess what? WGA might be on the verge of getting even messier. In fact, one report claims WGA is about to become a Windows “kill switch” – and when I asked Microsoft for an on-the-record response, they refused to deny it. Last week, a correspondent on Dave Farber’s Interesting People list posted some comments about his experiences with Windows OneCare Live. In the middle of the post, he added this tidbit: I like to review updates before they are installed. The only update that I have not installed is the latest WGA because of the security issues related to it. I called Microsoft support to see if there is a hidden option to say, "yep, I've got updates turned to manual… it's okay." The rep said, "No and why wouldn't you want to get the latest updates to Windows." I responded with the issues relating to WGA. He spent some time telling me that WGA was a good thing, etc. I reiterated that I have accepted all the updates except WGA and just want to review the updates before they're installed on my machine. He told me that "in the fall, having the latest WGA will become mandatory and if its not installed, Windows will give a 30 day warning and when the 30 days is up and WGA isn't installed, Windows will stop working, so you might as well install WGA now." [emphasis added] I'm wondering if Microsoft has the right to disable Windows functionality or the OS as a whole (tantamount to revoking my legitimate Windows license) if I do not install every piece of software that they send it updates. That can’t be true, can it? I’m always suspicious of any report that comes from a front-line tech support drone, so I sent a note to Microsoft asking for an official confirmation or, better yet, a denial. Instead, I got this terse response from a Microsoft spokesperson: As we have mentioned previously, as the WGA Notifications program expands in the future, customers may be required to participate. [emphasis added] Microsoft is gathering feedback in select markets to learn how it can best meet its customers' needs and will keep customers informed of any changes to the program. That’s it. That’s the entire response. Uh-oh. Currently, Windows users have the ability to opt out of the Windows Genuine Advantage program and still get security patches and other Critical Updates delivered via Windows Update. The only thing you give up is the ability to download optional updates. Hackers have been working overtime to find ways to disable WGA notification. If WGA becomes mandatory, would it mean that Microsoft could prevent Windows from working if it determines – possibly erroneously – that your copy isn’t “genuine”? That’s a chilling possibility, and Microsoft refuses an easy opportunity to deny that that option is in its plans. Over at Ed Bott’s Windows Expertise, I’ve been soliciting feedback from Windows users who’ve been burned by WGA. So far, I’ve received 20 comments. Here’s a sampling: What’s most disturbing about this whole saga is Microsoft’s complete lack of transparency on the issue. And before the ABM crowd jumps in with predictable “What did you expect?” comments, let me argue that Microsoft actually has a fairly good track record on transparency issues in recent years. Windows Product Activation is very well documented, and when a similar uproar occurred in 2001, it was squelched quickly by some fairly prominent postings from high-level executives who provided details without a lot of spin. Likewise, the Microsoft Security Response Center has done an exceptional job at providing quick responses to security issues. (Just ask Adam Shostack.) Currently, no one at Microsoft is blogging about this fiasco. No executive has been quoted on the record about it. There are very few technical details available, and those that have been published are being tumbled through the spin machine and spit out as press releases. If Microsoft really does plan to turn WGA into a kill switch in September, be prepared for an enormous backlash.
The Ed Bott Report
Ed BottIs Microsoft about to release a Windows "kill switch"?
Summary: Windows Genuine Activation is a mess. And according to one published report, it’s about to get even messier. If Microsoft’s online check determines that your copy of Windows isn’t “genuine,” will it shut you down completely? Microsoft says that just might be in their plans. Uh-oh.
I have an XP Media center with a promise RAID 0 4-disc array. When I installed the WPA it broke the drivers for the array by causing failed delayed writes (half of the array just “disapears”.) If I do a system restore to before the installation of the WPA everything goes back to working just fine.
[S]ince installing WPA … I’ve had blue screens and a total inability to boot. I had to run the XP repair function to get the computer to boot. I had a damaged boot sector on the hard drive. I am running two drives on a RAID 1 config.
I purchased a SEALED OEM copy of XP Professional. WGA said the license key was already used. I called MS and they said I should uninstall and buy another copy. I told them I wasn’t made of money and hung-up.
Microsoft rejected the product key that came with the ThinkPad I’m using. I had to call in and they gave me another code to enter which supposedly worked but now I get the blue screen of death about every other time I reboot. I’ve also lost all internet connectivity.
I sent my Compaq Presario notebook for service repair, and it fails the WGA check. I have a legal version of windows xp professional on it. But I have no way to correct this problem.
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Ed Bott is an award-winning technology writer with more than two decades' experience writing for mainstream media outlets and online publications.
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Ed Bott
Ed Bott is a freelance technical journalist and book author. All work that Ed does is on a contractual basis.
Since 1994, Ed has written more than 25 books about Microsoft Windows and Office. Along with various co-authors, Ed is completely responsible for the content of the books he writes. As a key part of his contractual relationship with publishers, he gives them permission to print and distribute the content he writes and to pay him a royalty based on the actual sales of those books. Ed's books written prior to fall 2011 have been distributed by Que Publishing (a division of Pearson Education) and by Microsoft Press. As of November 2011, Ed is a partner in the independent publishing company Fair Trade Digital Exchange, which exclusively publishes his books.
On occasion, Ed accepts consulting assignments. In recent years, he has worked as an expert witness in cases where his experience and knowledge of Microsoft and Microsoft Windows have been useful. In each such case, his compensation is on an hourly basis, and he is hired as a witness, not an advocate.
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Ed does not accept gifts from companies he covers. All hardware products he writes about are purchased with his own funds or are review units covered under formal loan agreements and are returned after the review is complete.
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Ed Bott
Ed Bott is an award-winning technology writer with more than two decades' experience writing for mainstream media outlets and online publications. He's served as editor of the U.S. edition of PC Computing and managing editor of PC World; both publications had monthly paid circulation in excess of 1 million during his tenure. He is the author of more than 25 books on Microsoft Windows and Office, including the recently released Windows 7 Inside Out.
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when this happens (and at some point it will), a large group of people will accept it, and a little further in the future those people are going to find windows shut down if they are perceived, rightly or wrongly, to have any pirated material on their hdd. I think it's going to be all downhill from here.
I have my update settings turned to notify only. I got a new notification for an update regarding "WGA Notification" just today. This is after I was stupid enough to install the WGATray debacle on both of my XP Pro machines.
Is this part of the "plan" too? Get it out there before we realize what being done to us?
Is this part of the "plan" too? Get it out there before we realize what being done to us?
... if they sent you a notice?
This would be that Mistake that allows Linux a strong foot hold on the desktop market.
And I can't believe that the people at Microsoft aren't smart enough to realize this. That's why there has to be more to the story. Keep in mind that the whole scenario was presented as a 'what if' by the blogger, based on piecing together tidbits from disparate sources.
Carl Rapson
Carl Rapson
I have already moved the majority of my computer use to Linux and believe it or not, I love the new Linux ... it is quite ready for the Desktop on my hardware and I even get beautiful transparency with KDE and don't need a major video card upgrade to get it.
I have had it with Microsoft. I have been a person who loved everything to do with Windows (and Linux) for years. I have had two computers, one Linux and one Windows. But Microsoft has gone way over the edge now. I don't even buy Intuit products because they do this crap that Microsoft is gonna pull.
So my answer is simple.
Now I have one Linux computer, and one dual boot Windows XP Pro and Linux, and it spends 98% of its time in Linux. When the dual boot computer goes to Windows, it has no Internet connectivity at all ... disabled the NIC device entirely and unplug the network cable just to be sure they can't turn it back on.
Microsoft draws fire for stealth test program
http://www.bambismusings.com/?p=409
And wait for Vista! You think this is bad ... you ain't seen nuthin' yet.
More postings about that too.
I have had it with Microsoft. I have been a person who loved everything to do with Windows (and Linux) for years. I have had two computers, one Linux and one Windows. But Microsoft has gone way over the edge now. I don't even buy Intuit products because they do this crap that Microsoft is gonna pull.
So my answer is simple.
Now I have one Linux computer, and one dual boot Windows XP Pro and Linux, and it spends 98% of its time in Linux. When the dual boot computer goes to Windows, it has no Internet connectivity at all ... disabled the NIC device entirely and unplug the network cable just to be sure they can't turn it back on.
Microsoft draws fire for stealth test program
http://www.bambismusings.com/?p=409
And wait for Vista! You think this is bad ... you ain't seen nuthin' yet.
More postings about that too.
Now I have one Linux computer, and one dual boot Windows XP Pro and Linux, and it spends 98% of its time in Linux. When the dual boot computer goes to Windows, it has no Internet connectivity at all ... disabled the NIC device entirely and unplug the network cable just to be sure they can't turn it back on.
You might be better off running your XP machine in a VM. That way you can set it up without networking to begin with.
You might be better off running your XP machine in a VM. That way you can set it up without networking to begin with.
I may just do that when I get a faster computer or more RAM.
I had Intuit problems with Activation. People won't put up with that kind of crap.
WPA has been enough of hassle. At least Microsoft support is reasonable. Intuit is not.
WPA has been enough of hassle. At least Microsoft support is reasonable. Intuit is not.
The day Microsoft actually implements some way to successfully prevent software piracy, and people have to pay full price to use their software, their days as dominant software provider will be counted.
This will especially be true, if their way of doing it could be percieved as intrusive by their customers, or if it somehow creates more trouble for their paying customers.
Looking at the new Novell desktop, and MacOS-X that both leave Microsoft XP and even Vista in the dust with respect to usability, users will not be without other options.
This will especially be true, if their way of doing it could be percieved as intrusive by their customers, or if it somehow creates more trouble for their paying customers.
Looking at the new Novell desktop, and MacOS-X that both leave Microsoft XP and even Vista in the dust with respect to usability, users will not be without other options.
I'd actually be more willing to bet that it makes no signifigant difference in Microsft's market share.
They'll simply fire up the propaganda machine and tell people that this makes their software CHEAPER by controlling piracy. Every OS they've released to date has promised faster speed and greater stability. (Um right. Can you imagine trying to even LOAD Vista on a Pentium 90?) People buy into it. They BELIEVE it. Tell them enough times that WGA makes their software cheaper and more stable and they'll believe that, too. If it falsely lables their software as not genuine, they'll think THEY did something wrong.
If it kills a corporate desktop or two, that's not a problem. The poor pleb sitting at the desk will get suspected of downloading something (s)he shouldn't. Small businesses will be inconvenienced, larger ones will have their IT staff reload the PC.
If it kills a server, this is probably the worst case for Microsoft. Again though, the largest business impact will be with small business, and it won't affect home users at all. Small businesses are too busy doing what they do to keep the money coming in. Larger businesses will simply have their IT staff reload the server, operating the domain on a backup server for a day. The end result is that Microsoft gets off scott free.
WGA causing instability? Prove it! Maybe there's some interference with some device driver, but then it'll be the non WHQL driver that takes the blame.
I use Windows XP Pro at home. I have a machine that's a dedicated media server. It could as easily be running Linux, and probably would be, except that when I looked, I could not get Linux drivers for the TV Tuner/Capture card (Part of its duties as a media server is to function as a VCR.) So it's running Windows because I can get the hardware drivers. My other machines I use to play video games. Oh wait, they don't make Linux distros for those either, and WINE doesn't run them. Again, I'm using Windows XP Pro there, so that I can load up a bunch of network games.
What're my alternatives at this point? OSX may or may not run my software, and Apple hardware is far more expensive. Linux won't run my software. In order for Linux to make serious inroads, it'll have to have more backing from the software companies. When PC gaming software is as readily available for Linux as it is for Windows, it'll be time to start looking at a switch. Office software isn't a problem.
They'll simply fire up the propaganda machine and tell people that this makes their software CHEAPER by controlling piracy. Every OS they've released to date has promised faster speed and greater stability. (Um right. Can you imagine trying to even LOAD Vista on a Pentium 90?) People buy into it. They BELIEVE it. Tell them enough times that WGA makes their software cheaper and more stable and they'll believe that, too. If it falsely lables their software as not genuine, they'll think THEY did something wrong.
If it kills a corporate desktop or two, that's not a problem. The poor pleb sitting at the desk will get suspected of downloading something (s)he shouldn't. Small businesses will be inconvenienced, larger ones will have their IT staff reload the PC.
If it kills a server, this is probably the worst case for Microsoft. Again though, the largest business impact will be with small business, and it won't affect home users at all. Small businesses are too busy doing what they do to keep the money coming in. Larger businesses will simply have their IT staff reload the server, operating the domain on a backup server for a day. The end result is that Microsoft gets off scott free.
WGA causing instability? Prove it! Maybe there's some interference with some device driver, but then it'll be the non WHQL driver that takes the blame.
I use Windows XP Pro at home. I have a machine that's a dedicated media server. It could as easily be running Linux, and probably would be, except that when I looked, I could not get Linux drivers for the TV Tuner/Capture card (Part of its duties as a media server is to function as a VCR.) So it's running Windows because I can get the hardware drivers. My other machines I use to play video games. Oh wait, they don't make Linux distros for those either, and WINE doesn't run them. Again, I'm using Windows XP Pro there, so that I can load up a bunch of network games.
What're my alternatives at this point? OSX may or may not run my software, and Apple hardware is far more expensive. Linux won't run my software. In order for Linux to make serious inroads, it'll have to have more backing from the software companies. When PC gaming software is as readily available for Linux as it is for Windows, it'll be time to start looking at a switch. Office software isn't a problem.
If Microsoft does this, I guess I'll have to go to Apple. I have a good copy of XP Pro Enterprise and will not even call them as that other person did. If I get that response to go buy another copy that would seal the deal on going to the Apple store. Good luck Microsoft on getting past this one. Maybe They're trying to tell Bill that if he leaves his empire will crumble to the ground.
Some hacker will find a way to send the 'kill switch' to a large number of computers around the world.
I can't wait for Microsoft and the markets reaction to such a predictable attack to most of the computers in the world.
I am nt a Microsoft basher, but sometimes I wonder who is running the show up there.
I can't wait for Microsoft and the markets reaction to such a predictable attack to most of the computers in the world.
I am nt a Microsoft basher, but sometimes I wonder who is running the show up there.
Their OS?s are operating on millions of computers, if they bring this jackass method in, and it is anyway flawed and peoples computers start shutting down in error, how long do you think it will be before they have a pile of lawsuits sitting on their corporate desks that far outweigh the bucks they may be saving in anti piracy.
Consider the problems that might arise due to a computer shutdown that could cost enormous money? We are dealing with millions of computers here and many of them are tasked to invaluable jobs that are time sensitive, and if a shutdown occurs on a properly licensed machine, its going to come back on Microsoft like a concrete block to the head. Not only will they end up in court hundreds of times over, but the customer drop off will begin, first a trickle, then an avalanche. Who?s going to pay $100+ for an OS that may permanently in fact shut down ON PURPOSE and by design if there is an error?
Consider the problems that might arise due to a computer shutdown that could cost enormous money? We are dealing with millions of computers here and many of them are tasked to invaluable jobs that are time sensitive, and if a shutdown occurs on a properly licensed machine, its going to come back on Microsoft like a concrete block to the head. Not only will they end up in court hundreds of times over, but the customer drop off will begin, first a trickle, then an avalanche. Who?s going to pay $100+ for an OS that may permanently in fact shut down ON PURPOSE and by design if there is an error?
The only financial liability Microsoft has if its software causes you to have a catastrophic loss of data or even a computer hardware failure is to replace or refund the cost of the installation media -- even if the problem is their fault, and even if you can prove that they knew that the problem existed.
And it says specifically in the EULA that it should not be used in "Mission Critical" situations.
As for the number of customers dropping off, the OS is installed on the computer when you buy it. Microsoft has been paid. OEM tech support will blame Windows for your problems (but note that most of them will void your hardware warranty if you wipe Windows off the HD and go with something else) and Microsoft will blame the OEMs. Rinse. Repeat.
And it says specifically in the EULA that it should not be used in "Mission Critical" situations.
As for the number of customers dropping off, the OS is installed on the computer when you buy it. Microsoft has been paid. OEM tech support will blame Windows for your problems (but note that most of them will void your hardware warranty if you wipe Windows off the HD and go with something else) and Microsoft will blame the OEMs. Rinse. Repeat.
Fortunately most countries in the world have laws regulating what is allowed and what is not allowed to put into contracts in consumer sales related situation. Among such things are typically liability issues. So it is quite irrellevant what the EULA says in such situations.
Ever since a well-meaning friend tried to overcome my resistance to M$ back when DEC and C/PM were the most usable business models, and gave me a portable DOS 2.11 to "wean" me, I have watched in horror as the Red(mond)Cult worked their vile crap on an innocent world - first by openly refusing to release any version that didn't notoriously negatively affect Lotus.
Each successive "release" was to overcome the stupidity and unworkability of the latest fiasco. Back then the only people interested in Macs were those who wanted more advanced graphics.
It strikes me as funny that M$ - with its unblemished history of software that fails out of the gate(s) - can really produce, this late in the XP game, a product that will work, ... even if the goal is to disable the Operating System. I have yet to experience an OS that "works" without constant maintenance from them/us.
Although it was slow, the Commodore was a far more reliable system, as were the C/PM driven lines from Osborne, but they were run out of existence by the "big boys".
The only thing having two products to choose from (Apple & "PC"/M$) has proven universally is that malware can run far more efficiently on either and thus destroy more work than when there were many different platforms out there, but the customer could spend his time producing rather than performing the chutes and ladders daily routines of trying to fix what should have never been broken in the first place.
Yes, I have continued to buy XP crap because I wanted to edit video and prefer more than one button on my mouse, and insist that the mouse move at my command - not like a rubber band-driven "Etch-A-Sketch" action that I have not been able to overcome since the first Macs (They still give me a horrible arm ache when I must work/use/(give me a better term) on a Mac.
I wish someone could come up with a version of C/PM-Geos driven simple ware that would interact with our present third-party software; then we could be talking about how much we love using it and concentrate on production again instead of all the problems associated with M$ - even when it's almost working.
It's bad enough that we must fight M$ just to keep our computers running; but the fact that they are now deliberately hacking away at their product that we already made them richer than anyone deserves for .5arse usability is frustrating beyond reason.
Each successive "release" was to overcome the stupidity and unworkability of the latest fiasco. Back then the only people interested in Macs were those who wanted more advanced graphics.
It strikes me as funny that M$ - with its unblemished history of software that fails out of the gate(s) - can really produce, this late in the XP game, a product that will work, ... even if the goal is to disable the Operating System. I have yet to experience an OS that "works" without constant maintenance from them/us.
Although it was slow, the Commodore was a far more reliable system, as were the C/PM driven lines from Osborne, but they were run out of existence by the "big boys".
The only thing having two products to choose from (Apple & "PC"/M$) has proven universally is that malware can run far more efficiently on either and thus destroy more work than when there were many different platforms out there, but the customer could spend his time producing rather than performing the chutes and ladders daily routines of trying to fix what should have never been broken in the first place.
Yes, I have continued to buy XP crap because I wanted to edit video and prefer more than one button on my mouse, and insist that the mouse move at my command - not like a rubber band-driven "Etch-A-Sketch" action that I have not been able to overcome since the first Macs (They still give me a horrible arm ache when I must work/use/(give me a better term) on a Mac.
I wish someone could come up with a version of C/PM-Geos driven simple ware that would interact with our present third-party software; then we could be talking about how much we love using it and concentrate on production again instead of all the problems associated with M$ - even when it's almost working.
It's bad enough that we must fight M$ just to keep our computers running; but the fact that they are now deliberately hacking away at their product that we already made them richer than anyone deserves for .5arse usability is frustrating beyond reason.
Especially when another OS can be had for the price of a magazine, or even free from the web for the time it takes to download and burn to cd/dvd.
Not to do a commecial plug here, but there are several Linux magazines with cover CDs or even more commonly now, a DVD with up to 4 GB of programs on board, sometimes including several distributions (flavors of the same OS with different packages).
One that a lot of you are familiar with are the offerings from Future publishing, one of which is Linux Format, on the shelves every month with a DVD inside the magazine in a sealed evelope.
There are other european magazines with disks in them, but very few if any from the States, as if it were a sin to give away a disk full of software with the mag.
Ask you local news retailer to stock Linux mags, and if he won't, go elsewhere, where they do or gladly will.
bart.
Not to do a commecial plug here, but there are several Linux magazines with cover CDs or even more commonly now, a DVD with up to 4 GB of programs on board, sometimes including several distributions (flavors of the same OS with different packages).
One that a lot of you are familiar with are the offerings from Future publishing, one of which is Linux Format, on the shelves every month with a DVD inside the magazine in a sealed evelope.
There are other european magazines with disks in them, but very few if any from the States, as if it were a sin to give away a disk full of software with the mag.
Ask you local news retailer to stock Linux mags, and if he won't, go elsewhere, where they do or gladly will.
bart.
It's obvious someone at MS needs to step up and stop this nonsense. Either confirm or deny what is about to happen, otherwise there is going to be mass hysteria over this.
Frankly, I'm scared. I have a totally legal copy of Windows XP (bought with my laptop), and none of the Genuine Advantage stuff will install here. If I'm about to get shut off through no fault of my own, they had better come out with a fix for this problem and pronto!
Frankly, I'm scared. I have a totally legal copy of Windows XP (bought with my laptop), and none of the Genuine Advantage stuff will install here. If I'm about to get shut off through no fault of my own, they had better come out with a fix for this problem and pronto!
i should think that if the WPA/WGA isn't installed there's nothing MS can do. as long as you don't want to install stuff through windows update (there are other means i hear) MS can't just shut off your machine. i don't think MS would be able to put WPA on pre-built machines either due to people who don't have internet access. just don't install the WPA/WGA stuff and you should be ok.
DISCLAIMER: i don't use windows on my home computer, so take what i've just said with a pinch of salt. i'm merely giving my THOUGHTS.
DISCLAIMER: i don't use windows on my home computer, so take what i've just said with a pinch of salt. i'm merely giving my THOUGHTS.
make no mistake microsoft is playing that way with "their" OS, they've always been the way I don't know why you or anyone else finds this story hard to swallow....microsoft has bruteforced their way around ever since they came into existence, or at least since the days surrounding the release of windows 95. That's just how microsoft does business. They do what they want. The audience takes it up the wazoo as long as they play in microsofts house. The internet never really relied to microsoft and never will. Certain players on the scene have most definitely relied on windows' backroom allegiances over the years, but that's going to end pretty soon.
I can't believe I didn't see that before, but truly, your brilliant, insightful commentary has helped me come to my senses. Thanks to your words, I too can see a bright, shining day where the lion shall sleep with the lamb, no wars, pestilence, or bad hair days shall occur, and finally, finally, all people will be able to divide by zero.
Microsoft is too big a player to just go away. They'll continue to be a serious force for a long time to come, if for no other reason than the fact that this juggernaut carries a huge amount of momentum. What I do see, however, is Linux and other open source *nix's (BSD, OpenSolaris, and I laugh as I say this, OpenDarwin) gaining market share. Also, if Apple finally hires someone who isn't tactically inept as their CEO, I could see Mac OS X proper becoming a serious player in the home and education market for the first time in a generation, though all of these will take a lot of time. Of these, Linux looks the strongest right now for the home user market, and this increased competition will only be beneficial to the average consumer. Of course, I could be wrong, in which case, my betters will be welcome to say "I told ya so."
Oh, and Ghekko, try studying history. It would be to your serious benefit.
Microsoft is too big a player to just go away. They'll continue to be a serious force for a long time to come, if for no other reason than the fact that this juggernaut carries a huge amount of momentum. What I do see, however, is Linux and other open source *nix's (BSD, OpenSolaris, and I laugh as I say this, OpenDarwin) gaining market share. Also, if Apple finally hires someone who isn't tactically inept as their CEO, I could see Mac OS X proper becoming a serious player in the home and education market for the first time in a generation, though all of these will take a lot of time. Of these, Linux looks the strongest right now for the home user market, and this increased competition will only be beneficial to the average consumer. Of course, I could be wrong, in which case, my betters will be welcome to say "I told ya so."
Oh, and Ghekko, try studying history. It would be to your serious benefit.
Apple is so much in bed with Microsoft that they will never escape. Linux is the next best bet. For the idiot who want the eye candy and easy setup that Windows promises (95%) of the world, they will have no choice but to follow.
On the contrary, Linux is easy to setup. I just did a Suse 10.1. The only issue now is drivers, really...
But what really irks me is how I've paid for a dozen different licenses to MS software but they are locked down owe way or another. Win98 is retired, I have one for XP Home from a nonfunctional Sony laptop - it's locked to Sony hardware so I can't use it elsewhere, but I paid for it!!! Worst of all, you can't buy a new computer without making a charitable donation to MS. Pisses me off.
But what really irks me is how I've paid for a dozen different licenses to MS software but they are locked down owe way or another. Win98 is retired, I have one for XP Home from a nonfunctional Sony laptop - it's locked to Sony hardware so I can't use it elsewhere, but I paid for it!!! Worst of all, you can't buy a new computer without making a charitable donation to MS. Pisses me off.
Most computer companies will sell you a computer with no opperating system installed on it where you can supply tour own.
I have a totally legal copy of Windows XP (bought with my laptop), and none of the Genuine Advantage stuff will install here. If I'm about to get shut off through no fault of my own, they had better come out with a fix for this problem and pronto!
Or else what? You'll hold your breath until you turn blue?
Grow up. Buy another copy if the present one doesn't work. Or don't. Either way, it's nobody's problem but your own.
Or else what? You'll hold your breath until you turn blue?
Grow up. Buy another copy if the present one doesn't work. Or don't. Either way, it's nobody's problem but your own.
People aren't made of money. If they legitimately bought the software, they have every expectation thatj it will work properly.
"Or else" is probably "file a lawsuit and demand compensation for time and trouble and maybe even class action status".
It's Microsoft's problem, not his/hers, if the product paid for doesn't work as advertised, and Microsoft is going to have to fix it or face demands for compensation.
If you break my car, I suppose you'd expect me to buy another one, right? Think again. I'll be up your ass demanding you give me an equivalent, or better, replacement, or the money to purchase a replacement vehicle.
"Or else" is probably "file a lawsuit and demand compensation for time and trouble and maybe even class action status".
It's Microsoft's problem, not his/hers, if the product paid for doesn't work as advertised, and Microsoft is going to have to fix it or face demands for compensation.
If you break my car, I suppose you'd expect me to buy another one, right? Think again. I'll be up your ass demanding you give me an equivalent, or better, replacement, or the money to purchase a replacement vehicle.
If they legitimately bought the software, they have every expectation thatj it will work properly.
That's their problem, not Microsoft's. The EULA is clear that MS doesn't promise anything of the sort.
"Or else" is probably "file a lawsuit and demand compensation for time and trouble and maybe even class action status".
You released MS from liability for consequential damages. Not their problem.
It's Microsoft's problem, not his/hers, if the product paid for doesn't work as advertised, and Microsoft is going to have to fix it or face demands for compensation.
I'm sure that Steve Ballmer lies awake at night sweating in fear of a demand for compensation from you.
The only thing Microsoft guarantees is that the media is readable. You really should read the EULA.
Oh, and as far as lawsuits are concerned, keep three things in mind:
1) Microsoft has something like $50 billion in the bank to pay lawyers with.
2) In a contract case, the loser pays.
3) That means you, loser.
That's their problem, not Microsoft's. The EULA is clear that MS doesn't promise anything of the sort.
"Or else" is probably "file a lawsuit and demand compensation for time and trouble and maybe even class action status".
You released MS from liability for consequential damages. Not their problem.
It's Microsoft's problem, not his/hers, if the product paid for doesn't work as advertised, and Microsoft is going to have to fix it or face demands for compensation.
I'm sure that Steve Ballmer lies awake at night sweating in fear of a demand for compensation from you.
The only thing Microsoft guarantees is that the media is readable. You really should read the EULA.
Oh, and as far as lawsuits are concerned, keep three things in mind:
1) Microsoft has something like $50 billion in the bank to pay lawyers with.
2) In a contract case, the loser pays.
3) That means you, loser.
i'd wager a large some of money that this contract will be voided under the UK unfair contract terms act. it would also fall under consumer law. look at it this way: MS is providing a service, if the service isn't satisfactory, no contract will protect them. if you hired a builder and he wrecked your house, you'd take him to court. if the law follows common sense, then you should be able to take MS to court.
i'd wager a large some of money that this contract will be voided under the UK unfair contract terms act.
That wouldn't surprise me -- in Germany, for instance, EULAs aren't binding to begin with.
However, Microsoft is a US company. I doubt that that non-US laws play much part in their planning.
That wouldn't surprise me -- in Germany, for instance, EULAs aren't binding to begin with.
However, Microsoft is a US company. I doubt that that non-US laws play much part in their planning.
You write:
However, Microsoft is a US company. I doubt that that non-US laws play much part in their planning.
Microsoft is an international company. (See this article for just one example.) It has to abide by laws all over the world and is about to be fined $2.5 million a day by the EU Commission for its actions in Europe. Non-US laws play a huge role in its product planning and its overall business.
Thanks for playing.
However, Microsoft is a US company. I doubt that that non-US laws play much part in their planning.
Microsoft is an international company. (See this article for just one example.) It has to abide by laws all over the world and is about to be fined $2.5 million a day by the EU Commission for its actions in Europe. Non-US laws play a huge role in its product planning and its overall business.
Thanks for playing.
However, I didn't mean that Microsoft is exempt from non-US laws. My point is that they have a single global strategy that is heavily US-centric.
Some of that is of necessity -- there are simply too many laws in all of the Earth's countries to tailor a strategy to fit them all. Some may be arrogance -- you'll have to ask MS about that.
Some of that is of necessity -- there are simply too many laws in all of the Earth's countries to tailor a strategy to fit them all. Some may be arrogance -- you'll have to ask MS about that.
Australia has the Trade Practices Act which would be breached by WGA killing a legal Windoze installation.
Microsnot could be in big trouble here.
Microsnot could be in big trouble here.
Yes and I daresay that people in the countries of the old Commonwealth are better protected than Americans.
Heck, even in France they're better protected.
But the answer is still a worldwide set of class action lawsuits on such a massive scale that M$ will have to either stop this silliness or pay so much in its own lawyers fees that the value of the stock will simply plummet into the confines of hell.
bart.
Heck, even in France they're better protected.
But the answer is still a worldwide set of class action lawsuits on such a massive scale that M$ will have to either stop this silliness or pay so much in its own lawyers fees that the value of the stock will simply plummet into the confines of hell.
bart.
This is where every EULA is up for the main test: are t he damn things legal. Answer - maybe not if taken to court. The dan things are so convoluted they make most legal contracts look like a first grade reader. Most user don't read them. Adn if they do can't understand what they have read. I believe I read where one Judge was pointing this out and more or less said if the EULA test came before him it would be a loser.
George, finally, someone said the magic words:
EULAs may not be legal. If I was a judge, looking at the commododity nature of software and hardware, I would tend to agree with that assumption.
Microsoft ironically would come out ahead on this, because if EULAs are not contracts then they would be relieved of millions of dollars and years of free support. I am surprised they have not thought of this yet. The lawyers in their midst must be spinning those Emporical New Rags.
EULAs may not be legal. If I was a judge, looking at the commododity nature of software and hardware, I would tend to agree with that assumption.
Microsoft ironically would come out ahead on this, because if EULAs are not contracts then they would be relieved of millions of dollars and years of free support. I am surprised they have not thought of this yet. The lawyers in their midst must be spinning those Emporical New Rags.
I believe I read where one Judge was pointing this out and more or less said if the EULA test came before him it would be a loser.
Yeah, but it's like the Western movie scene with the Sheriff standing in the jailhouse door with a shotgun facing a mob: "Who wants to be first?"
Yeah, but it's like the Western movie scene with the Sheriff standing in the jailhouse door with a shotgun facing a mob: "Who wants to be first?"
I would guess Elliot Spitzer, Attorney General of New "York State. Once he "logs on" You will have all the Attorneys General jumping on the Band Wagon. This Required WGA may be another reason BG is retiring
To long to go into in detail, but the thing always has to be fit for the purposes its sold for, if a car is sold to run on the roads, the warranty is implied, if its sold as is, the warranty dosnt imply for use on the roads.
If a new OS is sold for purposes of 'use on a personal computer', it matters little else what the EULA says if there is an implied warranty from the get go that the product will be usable on a home computer.
Obviously more complex then that, but rest assured, there is no way you can advertise and promote a product like Windows as an operating system for computers and then go to court and claim it dosnt actually have to operate under the very circumstances they promote that it will.
If a new OS is sold for purposes of 'use on a personal computer', it matters little else what the EULA says if there is an implied warranty from the get go that the product will be usable on a home computer.
Obviously more complex then that, but rest assured, there is no way you can advertise and promote a product like Windows as an operating system for computers and then go to court and claim it dosnt actually have to operate under the very circumstances they promote that it will.
that wipes off my master boot record without any warning?
Some jurisdictions have laws that make such restrictive language in licenses and warantees invalid. In those jurisdictions a lawsuit could be brought in spite of the EULA language. Then it would be up to the court in that jurisdiction to decide if MS would have to pony up installation media/codes that would work and what compensatory/punitive damages may be assessed against MS.
Microsoft's EULA may hold up in a lot of jurisdictions, but not all of them.
Microsoft's EULA may hold up in a lot of jurisdictions, but not all of them.
I totally agree with you and the irony here is taht I would use their money that I won from them to go and purchase a Linux or Apple machine.
Just buy a magazine with DVD, such as Linux Format and use the DVD to install on the machine you already have. You don't need a new machine, just a new OS.
bart.
bart.
If you buy Microsoft and agree to their EULA, you are bound by their rules. If you don't agree to the hoops they choose to put you through, spend your money more wisely.
Yagatta B. Kidding. Sure, everytime I buy something that doesn't work or stops working, I'll just buy another and another and another. I'm sure Yagatta is trying to make a point, maybe its to belittle everyone.
it's not about clubbing windows users, it's about showing them the way
If your car causes you to have an accident because of a manufacturer's mistake would you accept this answer from the manufacturer: "Go buy another of our cars."
Not only are you telling Microsoft in your comment that they own allyour money but you are saying that you work to make sure Steve Ballmer is richer!
Legally and morally Microsoft is wrong in creating a "kill switch". Let's see. The engine computer control in your car is Windows-based. On the latest update Microsoft decides the computer is not using a "genuine" version of Windows. Your car stops in the middle of the Highway. Three cars plow into you. You die along with other people. Microsoft's answer: "Buy another car." Do you just accept this answer?
Not only are you telling Microsoft in your comment that they own allyour money but you are saying that you work to make sure Steve Ballmer is richer!
Legally and morally Microsoft is wrong in creating a "kill switch". Let's see. The engine computer control in your car is Windows-based. On the latest update Microsoft decides the computer is not using a "genuine" version of Windows. Your car stops in the middle of the Highway. Three cars plow into you. You die along with other people. Microsoft's answer: "Buy another car." Do you just accept this answer?
If your car causes you to have an accident because of a manufacturer's mistake would you accept this answer from the manufacturer: "Go buy another of our cars."
It's in your purchase contract. If you buy a car under those terms, the answer is "yes."
Legally and morally Microsoft is wrong in creating a "kill switch".
Morally? I'm inclined to agree. Legally? Not according to your contract with them.
Your car stops in the middle of the Highway. Three cars plow into you. You die along with other people. Microsoft's answer: "Buy another car." Do you just accept this answer?
I didn't. On the other hand, it looks like you did.
Or didn't you read the contract you agreed to? That was one of the clauses.
It's in your purchase contract. If you buy a car under those terms, the answer is "yes."
Legally and morally Microsoft is wrong in creating a "kill switch".
Morally? I'm inclined to agree. Legally? Not according to your contract with them.
Your car stops in the middle of the Highway. Three cars plow into you. You die along with other people. Microsoft's answer: "Buy another car." Do you just accept this answer?
I didn't. On the other hand, it looks like you did.
Or didn't you read the contract you agreed to? That was one of the clauses.
i dont think you can enforce a contract that has something illegal in it.
ps I'm not wakka (bugmenot)
ps I'm not wakka (bugmenot)
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