Between the Lines

Larry Dignan, Andrew Nusca and Rachel King

Adobe: Apple's anti-Flash movement a risk to business

By | April 9, 2010, 8:08am PDT

Summary: Apple has made Adobe’s list of potential risks to its business because it won’t use Flash in the iPhone or iPad.

Apple has made Adobe’s list of potential risks to its business because it won’t use Flash in the iPhone or iPad.

In its quarterly filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission, Adobe said (emphasis mine):

We offer our desktop application-based products primarily on Windows and Macintosh platforms. We generally offer our server-based products on the Linux platform as well as the Windows and UNIX platforms. To the extent that there is a slowdown of customer purchases of personal computers on either the Windows or Macintosh platform or in general, to the extent that we have difficulty transitioning product or version releases to new Windows and Macintosh operating systems, or to the extent that significant demand arises for our products or competitive products on other platforms before we choose and  are able to offer our products on these platforms our business could be harmed. Additionally, to the extent new releases of operating systems or other third-party products, platforms or devices, such as the Apple iPhone or iPad, make it more difficult for our products to perform, and our customers are persuaded to use alternative technologies, our business could be harmed.

Adobe’s disclosure comes as Apple’s developer agreement for iPhone OS 4.0 forbids connectors to Flash. There are a few things to note about that passage. For starters, Apple wasn’t listed as a risk factor in Adobe’s annual report. In fact, Adobe played down the risk of HTML5 as a Flash rival. From the annual report in January:

Version 5 of the Web markup language HTML (“HTML5”) is being developed by an industry consortium that includes Adobe and leading browser manufacturers such as Apple, Google and Microsoft.  HTML5 will contain new features which will compete with some of the features of Flash Player, such as the ability to play video natively within the browser.  We will work to implement support for HTML5 in our Web authoring solutions.  Yet, we believe the competing interests of the browser developers, and the potential for inconsistency in how each major browser implements HTML5 will create a continuing demand for solutions such as Flash that provide a consistent presentation capability that works across browsers, operating systems and devices.

Here’s what Adobe said about Apple in its annual report:

With respect to the Apple iPhone, although our desire is to work closely with Apple to deliver Adobe Flash Platform technologies on their device similar to our approach with other mobile vendors, we are prohibited from making advancements towards this goal until we have Apple’s cooperation to do so.

The conclusion: Apple’s decision to keep Flash off the iPad was a manageable threat to the business. Now that Apple has launched the iPad, the threat to Flash isn’t as contained.

More on the iPhone 4.0 launch:

And the Adobe-Apple flap:

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Topics

Larry Dignan is Editor in Chief of ZDNet and SmartPlanet as well as Editorial Director of ZDNet's sister site TechRepublic.

Disclosure

Larry Dignan

Larry Dignan has nothing to disclose. He doesn’t hold investments in the technology companies he covers.

Biography

Larry Dignan

Larry Dignan is Editor in Chief of ZDNet and SmartPlanet as well as Editorial Director of ZDNet's sister site TechRepublic. He was most recently Executive Editor of News and Blogs at ZDNet. Prior to that he was executive news editor at eWeek and news editor at Baseline. He also served as the East Coast news editor and finance editor at CNET News.com. Larry has covered the technology and financial services industry since 1995, publishing articles in WallStreetWeek.com, Inter@ctive Week, The New York Times, and Financial Planning magazine. He's a graduate of the Columbia School of Journalism and the University of Delaware.

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RE: Adobe: Apple's anti-Flash movement a risk to business
escritorio@... 20th May 2010
Apple is protecting consumer too. Otherwise, we would have a lot of trash on AppStore...
It is the confidence of consumers on AppStore quality that make iPhone an iPhone and not an Android or Nokia...
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of course it is!
bannedfromzdnetagain 9th Apr 2010
a risk to adobe's business. poor guys. get over it. kill dreamveaver and
bring out a top notch html5 authoring program and the risk will become
an opportunity.

but something tells me someone else will take that land grab
opportunity
0 Votes
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Other companies get sued for this. You know, intentionally locking out or refusing to allow a company develop for their device or software without any logical reason what so ever.
0 Votes
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wrong
bannedfromzdnetagain Updated - 9th Apr 2010
apple is not refusing to allow a company develop for their device.
everyone can, even adobe - and they already do that at the moment
with great success: they have the no. 3 free app for the ipad right
now.

apple has no obligation to allow anything that is only in the best
interest of their competitors because it has no monopoly. case closed.

and if a developer doesn't like it, develope for another platform. there
are many and two have even a higher market share.

choice, so much choice!
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Last I checked they still have products that produce HTML.
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Does not change the simple fact.
Bruizer 9th Apr 2010
Adobe can develop for the iPhone if they wish.

Ouch.
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Haven't We Had This Discussion Before
DannyO_0x98 9th Apr 2010
Anti-competitive rises to actionability when there is also a monopoly
and/or dominance in a market sector.

Saw yesterday that RIM's market share increased.

Sooooooooo. Apple can do what it wants regarding Flash. Because
people can and do go to BlackBerry or Android when they got to have
Flash.

On the other hand, maybe you've got something, I'll be glad to join in
when you petition the FTC to require Microsoft to produce Visual
Studio/Linux.
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Whatever
bobiroc 9th Apr 2010
Because Apple doesn't have the most of the market they can tell companies to go take a hike and refuse products made by them. I see. I love how definitions and laws get twisted with Apple all based on their less market penetration.

In regards to your second half of your comment. Microsoft (or any other company) not developing software to run on another platform is entirely different. By that example Adobe would be the one saying we do not want to develop for iPhone/iPad/iTouch OS. And that is not illegal. Obviously the market calls for flash on the device based on the many many people that have been asking for it but it is OK for Apple to refuse to do it and purposely lock out Adobe from that particular product. Good for apple for keeping the sheep blind.
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apple is not locking out adobe
bannedfromzdnetagain Updated - 10th Apr 2010
adobe is developing for the iPlatform already and quite successful. (no 5
free app for the ipad at the moment). and thdy have some iphone apps
too.

but it is good to know that adobe has so vocal apologists (or is it only
apple-hatred?).
0 Votes
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Sorry if you felt the need to twist my comments to make it look like I was saying that they are not allowing Adobe to do anything for their platform. I will try to be more specific in the future for simple minds like yours.
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Apple is preventing Flash CS5 users from exporting their apps made in Flash to the iPhone:

http://www.fiercemobilecontent.com/story/iphone-developer-rules-rewritten-block-adobe-tools/2010-04-09

A simple web search would reveal rather more than just one article as well.

Apple is indeed blocking Flash, and it's to the point even I will cry "Foul!".

Flash is integral and still will be; the only real competitor I've observed catching up is SilverLight. For now. It is not real competition to lock out your competitors. The same is true for the larger competitors locking out the small ones.

Not to mention, other companies have been sued for playing such games. Apple is setting itself up for a fall and I'm siding with Adobe on this issue.
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But not locking out Adobe.
Bruizer 9th Apr 2010
Adobe has many programs and products OTHER than Flash. Flash is
simply their worst one. I have yet to see anything done in Flash that
can not be done with the proposed HTML 5 standard (that Adobe is
trying to block).

Not to mention, other companies have been sued for playing such
games.


Actually, they have not.
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Have to disagree with Bruizer
Lerianis10 11th Apr 2010
This is the EPITOME of locking out Adobe by saying that you cannot use their tools to 'port' your application to the iPhone.

It's ridiculous, and I hope that Apple is STOMPED on by the courts or regulators over this.
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I think you understand...
Bruizer 9th Apr 2010
Because Apple doesn't have the most of the market they can tell
companies to go take a hike and refuse products made by them.


Yep.

I love how definitions and laws get twisted with Apple all based on
their less market penetration.


Has nothing to do with it. You almost started to have a flash of
enlightenment in your opening sentence. Your Apple Hate stepped in
and turned off the light in your third.

By that example Adobe would be the one saying we do not want to
develop for iPhone/iPad/iTouch OS. And that is not illegal.


The battery is starting to charge that capacitor on the flash. Will it
reach enough of a charge to fire....

Obviously the market calls for flash on the device based on the
many many people that have been asking for it but it is OK for Apple
to refuse to do it and purposely lock out Adobe from that particular
product.


Nope, battery died...
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this is the same company that is so committed to Flash that they still don't have an X64 version for Windows despite promises to the contrary for a couple of years now. If Adobe can't be bothered to support their OWN product I really can't blame Apple for moving away from it.

I've been playing with Flashblock addon for FF lately and finding that for the most part I survive just fine without it....most of the flash I see is nothing but advertising which just wastes my bandwidth anyway. I'm sure the web would survive just fine without flash.
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And also considering that 32-bit systems are more common today, I can understand why they don't want to waste their time with having TWO versions of ONE product.

Maybe when everything goes TOTALLY 64-bit, Adobe will change their minds, but I can agree with them with not doing it until then.
0 Votes
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Wouldn't surprise me...
webmaster@... 9th Apr 2010
If it were someone like Microsoft. Expression Web is a cracking good
piece of kit, at a reasonable price too. I'd love to see it ported to Mac!
Microsoft know how to make a good IDE. I'd be perfectly happy to see
Microsoft produce a decent HTML/CSS3 compliant IDE.
0 Votes
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No one has a WYSIYG product to produce this stuff. And now it looks like
there is going to be a big demand for it. My Flash developer friends were
convinced Apple would accept Flash.
0 Votes
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Apple Control
bobiroc 9th Apr 2010
I just do not like how apple seems to think they can decide what is right for their customers. It would be different if for some reason it could not be developed but the fact that it probably can be and Apple is keeping it out despite the many many requests for it to be included just shows they have little regard for their customers. Just like denying apps based on they do not feel the app is appropriate. Let the customers decide and if a customer wants a porn app then awesome for them. They claim it is for the safety of the children. Well then that should be up to the parent and if the app store cannot implement some rating system and a lockout option for parents to use then it sounds like Apple's R&D team is not as great as they are made out to be. Many other devices/software have such features and whether parents use them or not is a different story.
0 Votes
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HTML client side code is far far far less controlling than a compiled
proprietary executable (swf) from one company.

If Apple chooses not to sell porn in their outlet, how is this different from
any other store? There are plenty of other sources for anything you want
to look at.
0 Votes
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They are not promoting it
bobiroc 9th Apr 2010
they are accepting that and locking out flash. Would you say the same if Microsoft did the same with Internet Explorer? I mean IE9 will have HTML5 support and will also support flash. Other browsers/internet devices will too.
0 Votes
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Uhh, except...
tk77 9th Apr 2010
Except Safari for OSX has HTML5 support and also supports flash.

And you can't say anything about future MS mobile devices until they are
out in the publics hands.
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Read
bobiroc 9th Apr 2010
I said other browsers and internet devices support both or are you like many other trolls and have a reading comprehension problem. I used IE9 as an example and didn't feel the need to list Firefox, Safari, Chrome, etc.. all individually.
0 Votes
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Say what you mean.
tk77 9th Apr 2010
Me trolling? Come on now.

I did read.

"They are not promoting it they are accepting that and locking out
flash. Would you say the same if Microsoft did the same with Internet
Explorer? I mean IE9 will have HTML5 support and will also support
flash."

IE9 is a desktop browser. Apples to Oranges, Safari for OSX is the
desktop browser. Why would you compare Microsoft's desktop
browser to Apples mobile browser? They are two completely different
things.

Is there going to be flash support on WinMo 7 ? Perhaps that would
be a better comparison.
0 Votes
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Twist how you want
bobiroc 9th Apr 2010
And as for Flash in WinPhone 7 that remains to be seen. I have not seen anything where Microsoft has told Adobe flat out no. Have you? Maybe Adobe will develop it and maybe they won't. That is adobe's choice.
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Why compare mobile to desktop?
Bruizer 9th Apr 2010
Look at everything IE mobile never supported. And still does not
support.
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Dear, dear me...
webmaster@... Updated - 9th Apr 2010
>>I mean IE9 will have HTML5 support and will also support flash
So does Safari 4.0, and so will Safari 5.0!

Compare Like for like. Lets look at Windows Phone 7 shall we? Oh! Look!
It won't support Flash either! That wouldn't have anything to do with
SilverLight, would it?
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You got proof
bobiroc 9th Apr 2010
that Microsoft is telling Adobe that they cannot develop flash for WinPhone 7? I mean the last 6 revisions of WinMobile did and maybe Adobe just has to develop a new version. From the sounds of the quote it sounds to me that Adobe can make flash for the iPhone OS but Apple is refusing it.
0 Votes
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You have truth issues don't you?
Bruizer 9th Apr 2010
mean the last 6 revisions of WinMobile did and maybe Adobe just has
to develop a new version.


WinMo 6.5 did not have Flash. Adobe killed it.
0 Votes
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Confused..
tk77 9th Apr 2010
I have to say, I am honestly confused as to why Adobe
plays up Flash as being a major part of their business.

Is there something I'm missing in their business model for
Flash?

Given that most Flash developers probably use the other
CS tools to develop their apps, like Photoshop, Illustrator,
even Premiere and possibly After Effects, those same tools
would be used to develop imagery and video for straight
html based sites.

Would the loss of selling the authoring app be that
detrimental? If its about training, server products, etc...
Couldn't they, shouldn't they embrace the new
technologies anyway, and start developing software to
handle those? (perhaps a flash like authoring tool for
HTML5, streaming server software for straight h.264,
etc...)

Or are they just being lazy and trying to milk every dollar
for a product someone else invented and they just bought?
Rather then doing the R&D themselves on new stuff?
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Adobe has an opportunity others don't
CowLauncher 9th Apr 2010
They could easily create the tools to create HTML5 content. These are
almost non-existent presently.

Before they bought Flash...I mean Adobe, the were a strong proponent
of javascript/CSS/SVG authoring for the web.
0 Votes
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Exactly
tk77 9th Apr 2010
Thats exactly what I was thinking. So why are they kicking and
screaming so much?

Unless they are in the process of attempting to develop such tools and
are trying to get as much as they can for Flash until they are complete.
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Quite! I wish they would.
HypnoToad72 9th Apr 2010
Of course, I wish all sorts of things...
0 Votes
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This isn't about customer choice, or batter life, or even lazy
programmers. It's about Adobe wanting to extend the "industry
standard" of Flash beyond rich-media on the internet to some kind of
ubiquitous "meta-application" development environment. If
developers can write a Flash app that can be run on all the mobile
platforms out there, Adobe can sell a lot of software, and Apple gets
marginalized on it's own platform. Adobe and Apple are both in this to
protect and/or expand their own successful product lines.

Yeah, Apple is looking to keep it's advantage of the iPhone OS, but so
Is Adobe trying to keep it's advantage as the rich-content
development platform of choice. Personally, Flash has crashed a few
thousand too many times for me to root for them in this fight. Do I
like Apple more than Adobe? No, not really, but Apple has proven to
me that they can get their software to work on their hardware a lot
better than Adobe has recently (and I go back to Photoshop 2.5 and
Type Manager).
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You can't really blame Apple....
Hallowed are the Ori 9th Apr 2010
So Apple doesn't want a piece of software running on its hardware that is basically Swiss cheese when it comes to security. Can't say I blame them.

Now, if they are doing it solely to harm Adobe, well, that would be different, but no one has shown that to be the case yet.
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you will also see it is a piece of swiss cheese as well - otherwise why does it get hit quickly in the black hat contests. besides apple also has software to let you run Windows in their operating system. Now the i* devices are blocking out arbitrary software and denying applications arbitrarily. if microsoft tried this, there would court cases galore. and if the iphone has the 60% penetration as claimed, it should soon be in the eyes of the antitrust investigators for such practices.
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ODFO.
webmaster@... 9th Apr 2010
No more than any of the other browser, baring perhaps Google
Chrome. Have a look at:

https://lists.webkit.org/pipermail/webkit-dev/2010-
April/012235.html

to see what is being done about the holes...

>>Now the i* devices are blocking out arbitrary software and
denying applications arbitrarily.
It's not arbitrary at all, is it? What
a ridiculous claim to make!

>>if microsoft tried this... Ah the good old, tired "if Microsoft"
gambit. Be quiet! They are doing exactly that with Windows
Phone 7, including not allowing Flash.

>>and if the iphone has the 60% penetration as claimed, it should
soon be in the eyes of the antitrust investigators for such
practices.
Wow. Not. At. All. Go and read up on anti-trust laws,
son. The first thing you will notice is that MONOPOLIES AREN'T
ILLEGAL.
If you know of a business that isn't trying to become
dominant in their field, ask why, and certainly don't invest in them!
The 60% is showing the mobile browsing dominance. It shows that
iPhone users typically use their device to browse the internet more
than all the other smart-phones combined. Jobs was essentially
saying "hey, we own the mobile browser market clearly because the
browsing experience on our device is better". Globally, Apple are 3rd
in terms of market penetration (mighty impressive given they have 1
handset on the market) behind Nokia and RIM. You cannot just
demand a company are sued for anti-competative behaviour because
YOU don't like 'em. Grow up, FFS.
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Except Microsoft...
Sleeper Service 11th Apr 2010
...have stated Flash will be included in later updates. Not never.
0 Votes
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what will the reason (or excuse) be?

Flash isn't perfect, but what is? OS X has exploits as well.

Mr. Jobs should read that old book, the one about throwing rocks in houses constructed of glass. As should we all; I'm not immune to making loud, brash comments either...
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....
Badgered 9th Apr 2010
So Apple doesn't want a piece of software running on its hardware that is basically Swiss cheese when it comes to security. Can't say I blame them.

ROFL, and Safari isn't?

Anyway, what I find odd is how close Apple and Adobe used to be.. now here we are.
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I don't buy this logic
Linux Geek 9th Apr 2010
If Apple had never created iHype there would be no threat to Adobe.
If Adobe could not sell tools for iHype, it's as iHype never existed....get over it!
iHype's days are numbered anyway so why bother.
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Is that really what you want?
CowLauncher 9th Apr 2010
You just sound bitter. Do you really want an internet that relies on
proprietary swf to go on forever?

Isn't HTML5 a better way to go?

Imagine if your whole webpage was one big Flash swf...don't laugh we
were almost there.
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It's A way to go...
ericesque 9th Apr 2010
The point is why shouldn't there be options?
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you did not get it
Linux Geek 9th Apr 2010
I don't like swf either because it's a resource hog.
My point is Adobe had no grounds to complain that others are not using its ware, even that company is Apple.
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iHype
bannedfromzdnetagain 9th Apr 2010
the iHype is here to stay. after almost 10 years you better get used to it.
wink
since they are only a monopoly on Apple hardware, what court would Adobe take them? Heck, what could Apple do if Adobe penned an exclusive deal for a killer application with per say Microsoft? All fair in business war?
0 Votes
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Google should just buy Adobe and Real
Boot_Agnostic 9th Apr 2010
put them on their OS, buy up a device/pc maker and boom, Apple competition on par. No need to burn more bridges they can just lob shells directly.
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I'm starting to regret my move to Apple.
HypnoToad72 9th Apr 2010
OS X is a superior operating system, but - as with for tens of thousands of artists and developers, if not more - Photoshop and the Creative Suite are integral products.

Mr. Jobs, please consider your customers in all of this. If you don't, you will lose customers and we will demand our government not bail you out. We're all for helping people who need it, but the actions of recent are increasingly worrisome.

Thank you for reading,

a customer
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Eh?!
webmaster@... 9th Apr 2010
Are you suggesting that Adobe will stop development of the CS suite for
Mac? That would be commercial suicide!
Yours is a good point - I've never read up on where Adobe makes its most money (e.g. Mac vs Windows users)... Adobe would still lose a LOT of income, despite it all... as would Apple. But Adobe can still rely on Windows users and get back on their feet?

Can Apple? (One needs a Mac to develop for the iPhone and iPad... the moment Apple loses its cloud, they will be in trouble.)

That's the problem with options, and that's why so many vendors incorporate "lock-in" to their applications and other product lines.
0 Votes
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Apple is protecting consumer too. Otherwise, we would have a lot of trash on AppStore...
It is the confidence of consumers on AppStore quality that make iPhone an iPhone and not an Android or Nokia...

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