Between the Lines

Larry Dignan, Andrew Nusca and Rachel King

Apple's iPhone 4 fallout: The smartphone "industry" fires back

By | July 19, 2010, 2:37pm PDT

Summary: RIM and other smartphone makers fired back after Apple tried to lump them together as all having smartphone antenna issues.

Just when Steve Jobs must have thought he’d addressed the public relations nightmare that’s become known as “Antennagate” once and for all, along comes the backlash from Apple’s smartphone brethren that Jobs tried to pull under the bus with him last week.

On stage at Friday’s invitation-only press conference, Jobs didn’t go right into his defense of the iPhone 4 and his dismissal of the hoopla as something blown out of proportion. Instead, he kicked things off by talking about smartphones made by rivals RIM, HTC and Samsung and how, as an industry, they all have antenna and reception issues.

I can almost hear the “What the… ?” from the offices of Research In Motion co-CEOs Mike Lazaridis and Jim Balsille as they saw their product being put under the microscope by Steve Jobs. Here’s the official reaction, posted on the All Things D Digital Daily blog:

Apple’s attempt to draw RIM into Apple’s self-made debacle is unacceptable. Apple’s claims about RIM products appear to be deliberate attempts to distort the public’s understanding of an antenna design issue and to deflect attention from Apple’s difficult situation. RIM is a global leader in antenna design and has been successfully designing industry-leading wireless data products with efficient and effective radio performance for over 20 years. During that time, RIM has avoided designs like the one Apple used in the iPhone 4 and instead has used innovative designs which reduce the risk for dropped calls, especially in areas of lower coverage. One thing is for certain, RIM’s customers don’t need to use a case for their BlackBerry smartphone to maintain proper connectivity. Apple clearly made certain design decisions and it should take responsibility for these decisions rather than trying to draw RIM and others into a situation that relates specifically to Apple.

Well said, gentlemen.

It was one thing for Apple to lower its standards to those of “the rest of the industry.” As I said in a post on Friday, Apple has always taken pride in offering a premium product to customers willing to pay a premium price. That set it higher than the others. But clearly in the iPhone game - and now in the crisis management game - Apple is looking more like a rookie, instead of a global powerhouse.

Related: Did Apple iPhone 4 flap delay long-rumored Verizon Wireless debut?

I mean, really, did anyone there think that RIM and the others weren’t tuning in to coverage of Apple’s press conference and would just be OK with Jobs trying to shift attention away from the iPhone’s woes by deflecting attention? Equally so, did Apple really think that the public was going to largely buy into its gospel about antenna shortcomings that it spewed on Friday? There are plenty of others out there - including the same rivals who responded to Apple’s latest press event - who have studied antenna technology and can easily offer a counter-thought to Apple’s statements. Nokia, for example, issued this statement:

Antenna design is a complex subject and has been a core competence at Nokia for decades, across hundreds of phone models. Nokia was the pioneer in internal antennas; the Nokia 8810, launched in 1998, was the first commercial phone with this feature. Nokia has invested thousands of man hours in studying human behavior, including how people hold their phones for calls, music playing, web browsing and so on. As you would expect from a company focused on connecting people, we prioritize antenna performance over physical design if they are ever in conflict.

Former colleague and pal John Paczkowski at Digital Daily blog posted all of the statements from the companies if you want to read them in full. Some are softer - Samsung is also an Apple partner, after all - while others were stronger. HTC and Apple are across the table from each other in a patent legal battle, for example.

All the smartphone makers seem to know that there are challenges that come with antenna technology and that’s why they choose to not put their antennas on the outside, especially in an area where it will be impacted by the way people hold the device. Just because Apple chose to put design first and is now seeing that decision backfire, that’s no reason to try to mask that bad decision with a diversion tactic.

Everything else about the iPhone 4 may be better than anything else on the market. But that antenna makes the iPhone 4 a poorly designed device - plain and simple.

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Sam has been a technology and business blogger for more than 18 years.

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Sam Diaz

Sam Diaz has nothing to disclose.

Biography

Sam Diaz

Sam has been a technology and business blogger, reporter and editor at ZDNet, the Washington Post, San Jose Mercury News and Fresno Bee for more than 18 years. He's a member of the National Association of Hispanic Journalists and a graduate of California State University, Fresno.

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RE: Apple's iPhone 4 fallout: The smartphone
tomlin21-24319035676893835085146735905770 11th Oct
Quite sharp posting. Not often assumed that it had been this easy. mulberry bags Extolment for you personally!
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I disagree
NonZealot Updated - 19th Jul 2010
Apple is looking more like a rookie, instead of a global powerhouse

I think Apple did exactly the right thing here. Giving free cases away was just right.

Steve Jobs, on the other hand, is the one that came away looking like the whiny little b!tch he is.

Waaaa, waaaaa, it is so unfair that they pick on my multi-national, multi-billion $$$/year mega-corporation just because we are successful. Waaaaaa.

Oh, BTW, did you hear that Windows crashes?
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@NonZealot
"Oh, BTW, did you hear that Windows crashes?"

LOL your killing me here... hahaha
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@brad1000 Except for my 1 yr old Vista which hasn't crashed any of the 300 0r 800 times it has been turned on. Exactly WITF are you doing to Windows to make it crash? Or are you running Win 95? Or do you use Windows at all?
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Hey, and don't forget!!!
SonofaSailor 20th Jul 2010
@NonZealot

Even though BP finally got the leak stopped, they now have to clean up all of the oil!

(sadly, that is what all of us should have been more focused on this last month)
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RE: Apple's iPhone 4 fallout: The smartphone
garyleroy@... 20th Jul 2010
@SonofaSailor
BP needs to hire Steve Jobs. Then he could just claim there's really no problem because Chevron and Texaco are spilling oil all over, we just don't know about it because we're too busy picking on his poor little company.
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RE: Apple's iPhone 4 fallout: The smartphone
Pete "athynz" Athens 20th Jul 2010
@NonZealot Agreed.

Oh, BTW, did you hear that Windows crashes? So far Windows 7 has not crashed on me once...
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@athynz
It will as soon as you turn it on.
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@athynz haha
I have win 7 at work and run ALOT of heafty applications. No crashes yet!

I have win XP at home and have been running it for since release. Even win XP hasn't crashed on me!

I think that crash issues are becoming something of the past....
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RE: Apple's iPhone 4 fallout: The smartphone
lividcreature 20th Jul 2010
@NonZealot Yeah, well you are correct about Jobs being the "whiny little b!tch he is..." But you're wrong about Apple doing "exactly the right thing here." I will agree that for temporary purposes, a free case is the right thing, but to not offer a hardware fix for future sales and/or a total recall (no pun intended) is definitely the WRONG thing. With such hardware failure as this antennae design is, it's pretty pathetic to even attempt to compare other phones and how they drop bars with the Death Grip. The problem here is dropping CALLS, which these other phone do not with this Death Grip. The iPhone 4 is fundamentally flawed in its hardware and these other phones drop bars because of the basic principles of human signal interference. So Jobs' and the iSlaves aren't only coming out whining, they're coming out in the wrong by misdirection and misleading their customers by these moot, pathetic comparisons. Kudos for RIM, HTC, BB, Samsung for defending these blind attacks by FrApple.
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@NonZealot yay ay.. the right thing to do. but not the right timing.

Blaming AT&T, blaming software, denying there was a problem - all good diversionary tactics, but FIRST it would have been a mighty good idea to offer impacted users 10c worth of rubber (yeah I know the price tag says $30 but sales price rarely reflects manufacturing costs)
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Hubris
???Dilemma 20th Jul 2010
@NonZealot I find it really disgusting to see a supposed adult, write about someone like S Jobs (the same would go for Gates or anyone of that importance) that he is a whining little *****. I think whatever u think about him, you should respect what it represents (that is a big part of computing as we know it today) . The only consolation is that it comes from an anonymous nobody whose only occupation is being first to bash at Apple whenever a post is published...Shame really
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@InfiniteDilemma
Yeah! I guess he could have called him "monkey boy" or "fartface" or some of the other monikers brandished about when talking about other executives. The only difference I see is no one called the others out for this. I think this is what my friend Non-zealot call cuing the double standard.
  • Flagged
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Your friend? - - lol...
ahh so 20th Jul 2010
@windozefreak
Why am I not surprised...
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@InfiniteDilemma If I made such a total screw up in my work, refuse to admit there is a problem for a month, then blame everything but my work, then try to drag my peers into the hole with me, then ***** about how everyone is attacking you. I'd expect to be called a whining little *****.

iPhone 4 is being judged on it's own merits. As a hand-held computer it's pretty awesome. As a telephone it's a piece of crap. If Job's can't handle the well earned criticism he should stay out of the industry.
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RE: Apple's iPhone 4 fallout: The smartphone
garyleroy@... 20th Jul 2010
@InfiniteDilemma
Geez, I remember the Apple fans at our company with their "Bill Gates is satan" posters spewing out hate all the time, and you get upset about your whiny little hero.

No, actually Steve Jobs deserves all the empathy, respect and self-sacrificing consideration that he has given to others over the years. All we have to do is find someone that he gave it to. Well, let's see, probably his mom...no, maybe not...
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Apple "did the right thing" ...
mwagner@... 20th Jul 2010
@NonZealot ... only to the extent that a free case is a legitimate (no cost to the consumer) way to mitigate the problem in the short-term. It is NOT a solution!

If Apple's engineers are any good at all, they have already identified a permanent solution (such as a clear dielectric coating applied to the antennas before assembly which will keep human skin from conducting between them).

Judging by the september end-date for the free bumpers, I am guessing that Jobs is gambling that he will sell all of the iPhone 4 devices already manufactured and in the pipeline before the deadline (and that all iPhones shipped after that date will have the permanenet fix applied).

It's Jobs' unwillingness to come forward and fess-up to a very human characteristic - imperfection that is so annoying. Is he simply a COWARD or does he really believe this is not a design flaw and that everyone is out to get him?
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@mwagner@...

In fact, if you LISTEN (that's what 2 ears are for) Jobs DID say Apple made an error in the software reaction to covering the antenna PLUS they tested every smart phone PLUS you can see this happening with every phone on YouTube.

"It's Jobs' unwillingness to come forward and fess-up to a very human characteristic - imperfection that is so annoying."

In fact, every early on he said Apple ISN'T perfect and that they DID find problems, just not the one the press and all you sheep out there THOUGHT they should have found.

Proof is out there if you are willing to do a minute or two of research to get the TRUTH rather than just rehashing what some fool said somewhere.
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@NonZealot I agree with you here. Jobs and Apple SHOULD have said, "we overlooked this during testing and we are going back to the drawing board to correct it. In the meantime all current owners can return their phone for full credit or accept a case for free. We apologize."

The end.

But Steve Jobs has never been known for his modesty or humbleness.
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To the senior editor at ZDNet: My observations of the past few days has shown that all the "rebuttals" posted on this topic by all the smartphone company representatives have never refuted the actual video results shown by Apple during the Job's press conference. If you have knowledge of any reported statements to the contrary, please state them now.

If you cannot dispute those video results, than please refrain from posting Watergate era "non-denial denials" by yourself and other individuals in a sad attempt at displaying a rather hateful bias against a good faith attempt by Apple at explaining their position on this topic.

This is not being an "Apple Apologist". Rather just show me one statement by RIM, Samsung or HTC that says .. Yep, those videos were bogus, fake or doctored with. Just one, please.
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Nothing to refute
Economister 19th Jul 2010
@kenosha7777

The bars depend on an algorithm. Apple just changed theirs on the iPhone. Hence you have no idea what the heck you were looking at. In addition, Apple could have tampered with the signal to make the effect more pronounced.

Are you always this gullible? Unless the results came from and independent lab, they mean NOTHING. I only know one thing for sure: I cannot trust Jobs.
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RE: Apple's iPhone 4 fallout: The smartphone
atari_z Updated - 19th Jul 2010
@Economister As usual, when Apple put facts, it has to be false, but when somebody says anything against Apple, even without any proof, he has to be right. This is called double standard. +1 for kenosha7777?
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LOL, you've totally lost it atari_z
NonZealot 19th Jul 2010
As usual, when Apple put facts, it has to be false, but when somebody says anything against Apple, even without any proof, he has to be right.

So you believe everything that MS has ever said about its competition? LOL!!!
  • Flagged
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@Economister
With the whole tech world watching, do you actually believe Apple would have tampered with those results?

I'm not gullible or naive on this issue. Samsung, HTC, and RIM don't believe those videos or the testing method shown were tampered with. Why should you?
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Samsung, HTC, and RIM don't believe those videos or the testing method shown were tampered with

Just like showing a video of an OS X kernel panic doesn't suggest how often such an event happens, the Samsung, HTC, and RIM don't deny that signal attenuation happens. Their argument, and it is one that is very believable since even Apple admits that the iPhone 4 drops more calls than the iPhone 3G, is that this is more of a problem on the iPhone 4 than it is on their phones. Can you deny that?
  • Flagged
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And you lie on a continuous basis.
Bruizer 19th Jul 2010
@Economister

So why should we trust you? I loved it the other day when a friend with a Droid not so Incredible was razing me on the iPhone 4's antenna. Just then he had a call came in, he answered it and then the call dropped.

OMG!!! He found the death grip on the Droid Incredible by accident. I LMFAO. From 4 bars to loss of signal with a simple touch.

Dude, you are not so young and naive to think this is just an issue with the iPhone 4 are you?
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While I agree that Algorithm and non-bias testing is...
Snooki_smoosh_smoosh 20th Jul 2010
@Economister... important, there are several dozen videos on youtube and other places demonstrating the exact same thing that Jobs has done during this press release. It did seem tacky if anything.

As to the issues, well, I think that Jobs made the case that problem isn't the huge issue that it really is, I am certain that all of his data in showing the slight tick in dropped calls, and how only a small number of people have actually made complaints, is verifiable, and able to be subpoena'd into court, which will be very interesting when it comes the forth coming lawsuits that Apple is facing.

The facts are that bloggers, like this Sam Diaz get their kicks on rumor and speculations, without any real facts, which surmounts to nothing more than hearsay.

I would rather see what happens in the forth coming lawsuit than to subscribe to Sam Diaz's rubbish.

http://mashable.com/2010/07/01/class-action-lawsuit-apple-and-att/
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RE: Apple's iPhone 4 fallout: The smartphone
Pete "athynz" Athens 20th Jul 2010
@Economister In the case of RIM products he's right... I've had issues with my old BB 8703e dropping calls and losing reception - when I upgraded to the Curve 8330 it was fine for about a month and then I kept dropping calls... hell I'd drop from 4 bars to 1 when I hit the send button after dialing the number I wanted. I went through 2 more 8330's with the same issue. I recently upgraded to the Curve 8530... so far I've had fewer issues but I can still make the bars drop when I hit the send button. The ONLY reason I'm not ditching the device altogether is because it is a work phone and due to a piece of software I'm pretty much stuck with it... otherwise I'd have gotten a Droid Incredible. On the other hand with my iPhone 3G I have not had any of these issues... and 2-3 dropped calls in the entire two years I've owned the device.
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@Kenosha7777

"With the whole tech world watching, do you actually believe Apple would have tampered with those results?"

Tamper with the results? No. But contrive a scenario to make Apple look less bad? Absolutely Apple would do that. It wouldn't surprise me if Apple picked a location where the provider signals for the other phones was a little less substantial.

Reference: Mac vs PC commecials. Apple says that Macs don't crash and that Macs don't have security issues when a quick search of the internet and Apple's history of patches for the Mac would prove otherwise.

So yes, I absolutely believe that Apple would do whatever they can to distort the reality of their design flaw as endemic to smart phones to deflect attention away from themselves.
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@kenosha7777
If you cannot dispute those video results

Apple recently ran an ad campaign that focused on some of the flaws in Windows. For example, Apple ran an ad that suggested Windows can crash with cryptic error messages. If Ballmer got all defensive like Steve "Cry Baby" Jobs did and started posting videos of OS X kernel panics, would your response to be:
Oh... yeah... huh... I guess since you can show 1 video of 1 OS X kernel panic, you've just proven that OS X crashes just as much as Windows does.

No, you would start freaking out saying that OS X isn't perfect but blah blah blah (we would zone out right around that part of your rant).

So kenosha7777, does OS X crash just as often as Windows does or are all recorded OS X kernel panics faked? One or the other since those are the only 2 options you are willing to entertain with antenna-gate.

Cue the double standards...
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@NonZealot
NZ, my quarrel is not with you. I have always understood your position on these issues and I respect them. You don't issue FUD.

The Senior ZDNet Editor wishes to hold Apple's Jobs to a standard that he has yet to show in his current blog. I want him to answer the question I posed.
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@NonZealot

NZ, your other post was flagged but regarding ".. Their argument, and it is one that is very believable since even Apple admits that the iPhone 4 drops more calls than the iPhone 3G, is that this is more of a problem on the iPhone 4 than it is on their phones. Can you deny that?"

My answer is no.
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I think you are missing a very basic point. Any material (including a person?s hand and body) can cause signal attenuation. The amount by which the downlink signal is attenuated depends on many factors, including the exact position of the phone relative to the signal source and the number of multipath signal components and their origin with respect to the phone and surrounding obstructions. To put it in simple terms, when there are obstructions between the signal source and sink, some level of attenuation will likely occur. Every phone is subject to this effect, as it is purely a matter of physics. Simply changing the position of your hand when holding a particular phone would, in general, not result in the dramatic drop in signal strength that Mr. Jobs demonstrated, so you can bet he ensured surrounding conditions were staged to exaggerate the effect. No rebutting company, however, is claiming the observation wasn?t real for the conditions used in the demonstration. Here is the point you seem to be missing, though. The iphone?s ability to receive signals is compromised by simply touching its exterior in a particular spot. This is not an effect that all phones are subject to because of how physics works, but is rather a result of a bad antenna design, pure and simple. RIM, HTC, Samsung, etc. have been designing phones for many years and would not make such a basic mistake in their antenna design, which is why they take issue with the message Mr. Jobs presented. Simply put, the signal strength demonstration does not somehow validate Apple?s bad antenna design.
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@rgamm
Your arguments all logically follow one assumption: "..Simply changing the position of your hand when holding a particular phone would, in general, not result in the dramatic drop in signal strength that Mr. Jobs demonstrated, so you can bet he ensured surrounding conditions were staged to exaggerate the effect"

The assumption that the conditions were staged is one I can not assume is true. My argument against them being staged is that RIM, HTC, or Samsung never issued a statement or theory that the were. Also, if for the sake of argument, Apple staged the effects artificially and this was later verified, the consequences to Apple's reputation would be catastrophic. I have to believe Jobs and the Apple Board of Directors would never risk that.
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@kenosha7777

Really? I didnt know job's nickname was kenosha.

"The assumption that the conditions were staged is one I can not assume is true. My argument against them being staged is that RIM, HTC, or Samsung never issued a statement or theory that the were. Also, if for the sake of argument, Apple staged the effects artificially and this was later verified, the consequences to Apple's reputation would be catastrophic. I have to believe Jobs and the Apple Board of Directors would never risk that."

When ANY company post videos of a competitor any intelligent person would assume it is stagged. I don't care who posts it. I love my Evo, but if HTC posted videos of Samsung or Apple, I would question its merits. For you to say that you assume its real right off the bat without challanging its merits based on the tests standards and results, you just show that you drink way to much of jobs kool-aid and really everything you say is moot.
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RE: Apple's iPhone 4 fallout: The smartphone
kenosha77a Updated - 20th Jul 2010
@topgun966
It might be true that Jobs and I have a few things in common such as we both are "baby boomers" and we both use an iPad and we .. well, that's about it. I am definitely not Jobs. Questioning test results are "one thing", accusing or suggesting impropriety without proof is another matter all together.
Heaven forbid I am ever accused of a crime and find you as one of my jurors. I would only hope that you would wait until the proof was in before passing judgement. So far, it's not looking very good for me.
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@kenosha7777 In case you weren't pay attention, Consumer Reports is an independent testing company and they indicated the issue was significantly more pronounced on the iPhone 4 than any other smartphone (including the iPhone 3).
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@Scubajrr
I never disputed the statement from CR that said the iPhone 4 was the best smartphone currently.
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@kenosha7777
I wonder how many thousands on manhours and hundreds of phones Apple went through to find a few that would perform on command for Stevie....

SJ = Smoke + Mirrors
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@zenwalker
Twenty two days worth
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@kenosha7777 They did refute it. That's why they said not to drag them under the bus because apple made a decision to put the antenna on the outside. They all said that's why they have done studies for decades determining how people hold their phones etc...and they don't put the antenna on the outside. Even the person in the audience during steve jobs lie said they had a blackberry and they couldn't replicate the antenna pic he showed. Steve's answer..."it doesn't happen everywhere"
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@Guyver21
Read their statements again. They did not refute the results shown for their products during the Apple news conference.
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Tell me ...
mwagner@... 20th Jul 2010
@kenosha7777 ... can you refute the dozens of YouTube videos of this problem? An Apple orchestrated video will only show you what Apple wants you to see.

And even YouTube might be biased ... but Consumer Reports?
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@mwagner@...
I'm not questioning ANY videos displaying Apple antenna iPhone issues.
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You just don't get it..
ursulus 20th Jul 2010
@kenosha7777 When was the last time you heard BIG PRESS about a RIM or HTC phone dropping calls. It's not about signal strength decreasing, it's about dropped calls. Holding phones certain ways will reduce signal attenuation, end of story, but in Apples case the design of the antenna is flawed. Also there attempts to divert the truth are unconscionable. The fact they admitted that they had been enhancing the perceived signal strength forever, when it is blatantly obvious this was no surprise, they did it to cover the inadaquacy of the AT&T network. This sort of misdirection/misinformation and manipulation of the consumer is what we're all complaining about.. and you obviously just didn't get it.

Wake up and smell the humus.

Malcolm
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@ursulus
If you viewed the Apple press conference video, Jobs stated that actual "dropped calls" figures were an AT&T company confidential statistic and that only a "delta" value could be released for drop calls from the iPhone 3GS and the iPhone 4 models.

I suspect the reason RIM or HTC dropped call stats have not been released to the press fall under the same business confidentiality concerns.

Please .. I am truly curious. If you can supply the actual dropped call rates for the RIM, HTC and Samsung smartphone models listed in the Jobs news conference (by whatever means at your disposal) than please come forward and state those figures. Please ... or wake up and smell the humus along with me.
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RE: Apple's iPhone 4 fallout: The smartphone
Richard in Phoenix 20th Jul 2010
@kenosha7777
You are missing the point. Videos of bars dropping when held do not mean anything, because like points on Who's Line, the bars don't matter. Without an industry-wide standard for how bars are calculated, they don't matter. Get that?

What matters is real-world signal strength, signal-to-noise ratio, dropped call ratios, and data rates. Either Apple didn't examine any of the things that actually matter, OR more likely they did, and found out it made them look worse than simply counting bars.

So these manufacturers are totally justified in telling Apple to "STFU, our phones work just fine when held."
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@Richard in Phoenix

I "get that", Richard. I get that "...bars don't matter. Without an industry-wide standard for how bars are calculated, they don't matter."

I never said they did. I don't believe Apple or Jobs stated that the bars (by themselves) mean anything of significance either.

But your statement that Apple didn't examine real-world signal strength, signal-to-noise ratio, dropped call ratios and data rates is ludicrous (Apple did build and designed their own phone after all and tested it in their state of the art testing facility .. observations and deductions that should be obvious to a first grader.) Of course Apple made those measurements. I "get that", too.

What I "don't get" is your opinion that "they found out and made them look worse than simply counting bars. Actually, I "don't get" the logic of your whole sentence but at any rate, that was not the point of displaying the videos of other competing smartphones.

By the way, those other manufactures can state anything they want to. They have smartphones to sell as well. And, just for the record, my objections to the Senior ZDNet Editor's blog were not based upon what he reported was stated in the other manufactures press releases. Its what the Senior ZDNet Editor refused to state was omitted from those press releases.
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Not fake, just meaningless.
Lester Young 20th Jul 2010
@kenosha7777

Bars aren't standardized for amount of signal drop. Anandtech compared the signal drop experienced by the iPhone with the bridging grip with signal drop by attenuation on other phones, and it was worse by approximately a factor of two. The iPhone has a much more serious problem.
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@Lester Young
Finally some hard data .. something the Senior ZDNet Editor refused or couldn't supply.
Lester .. please supply a link to this data. I wish to view these myself .. not to dispute or argue with you nor to dispute the Anandtech research findings but to broaden my knowledge base on this topic. Thanks in advance.
But I will note that your opinion that the iPhone has a serious problem could be debated. There was never an outcry of consumer angst over excessive dropped calls when using the iPhone 3GS. And the iPhone 4 dropped call rate compared to the iPhone3GS was only slightly, very slightly, I might ad, greater.
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RE: Apple's iPhone 4 fallout: The smartphone
David A. Pimentel 20th Jul 2010
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RE: Apple's iPhone 4 fallout: The smartphone
tomlin21-24319035676893835085146735905770 11th Oct
Quite sharp posting. Not often assumed that it had been this easy. mulberry bags Extolment for you personally!

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