Between the Lines

Larry Dignan, Andrew Nusca and Rachel King

Dell, HP struggle with consumer PC businesses

By | February 23, 2012, 3:00am PST

Summary: HP and Dell may need a Windows 8 upgrade cycle to save their PC profitability over time.

Two companies largely known for their PC brands are taking their lumps as consumer demand dries up and a hard drive shortage continues to wreak havoc.

Dell and HP both reported earnings this week and painted a PC demand picture that’s shaky.

HP CEO Meg Whitman said on a conference call that “the hard drive shortage and continuing difficulties in China contributed to a revenue decline of 15% year-over-year” for the PC unit (PSG). HP reported better-than-expected profits in the first quarter, but revenue and the company’s outlook missed estimates.

Meanwhile, HP is struggling with innovation. If ultrabooks don’t become a hit HP won’t have many answers. “For all that’s right with PSG, we underinvested in innovation for the last several years and we’ve been late to market too often. We have to lead again,” said Whitman.

HP, which decided to keep its PC business a few months ago, argues that the HP business helps the company get better deals on components. However, HP’s server business also struggled.

Overall, HP is doing a good job focusing on profits in its PC business. The company managed to deliver an operating profit of $464 million on revenue of $8.9 billion in its fiscal first quarter. Those results, however, overshadowed notebook, desktop, consumer and commercial revenue declines.

For Dell, the PC business—especially the consumer unit—isn’t so hot. Dell’s consumer revenue in the fourth quarter fell 2 percent to $3.2 billion with operating income of $39 million. Sure, Dell’s consumer business is profitable, but the profits pale next to other units.

Dell’s desktop PC sales grew 3 percent in the fourth quarter compared to a year ago. Mobility sales—laptops—were up 1 percent in the fourth quarter.

Steve Felice, president of Dell’s consumer and SMB business, said on a conference call:

In the fourth quarter results were mixed. Total revenue and margin weakness was largely concentrated in the US market with a decline of 15%. We continue to see good progress in our high-end Consumer systems as our XPS notebook revenue increased 103% for the full year. So while we’re disappointed in the Q4 profitability, we’re pleased with the overall progress made during fiscal year 2012.

Dell CFO Brian Gladden noted that Dell wasn’t able to procure hard drives and had to sell lower margin systems.

Bottom line: HP and Dell may need a Windows 8 upgrade cycle to save their PC profitability over time.

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Larry Dignan is Editor in Chief of ZDNet and SmartPlanet as well as Editorial Director of ZDNet's sister site TechRepublic.

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Larry Dignan

Larry Dignan has nothing to disclose. He doesn’t hold investments in the technology companies he covers.

Biography

Larry Dignan

Larry Dignan is Editor in Chief of ZDNet and SmartPlanet as well as Editorial Director of ZDNet's sister site TechRepublic. He was most recently Executive Editor of News and Blogs at ZDNet. Prior to that he was executive news editor at eWeek and news editor at Baseline. He also served as the East Coast news editor and finance editor at CNET News.com. Larry has covered the technology and financial services industry since 1995, publishing articles in WallStreetWeek.com, Inter@ctive Week, The New York Times, and Financial Planning magazine. He's a graduate of the Columbia School of Journalism and the University of Delaware.

For daily updates, follow Larry on Twitter.

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They're toast....
sameer_singh17 20th Mar
The biggest mistake both companies are making right now is to focus all their energies on Windows 8. Windows 8 doesn't have great odds of success when you consider the needs of their target segments.

Companies like Lenovo, Acer & Asus, have hedged their bets with Android, and that's a smart move. Asus, in particular, will be leading this change of guard.

Detailed analysis here - http://www.tech-thoughts.net/
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And hasn't been for years now. Razor thin margins to gain market share is a loosing tact. However because of the nature of that business that is the only option many if not all feel they can go with.

Pagan jim
@James Quinn Agreed, Dell and HP (along with Gateway 2000, Packard Bell, etc) started the "economies of scale" price war back in the late 90's. In 1996 you could still make $500 on a computer sale, now you're lucky to make $50. It's ironic if you think about it, they squeezed the margins so tight that now that the IT economy has hiccuped because of the hard drive shortage, there's not enough margin to hold them over during the slump.
-1 Votes
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They know it's a lousy experience. Before the iPhone they never really knew about Apple's products and thought all computers were hard to use, unreliable, and a general pain. Then they got experience with the iPhone and how easy it was to use and more important how reliable it is.

After that they looked at the computers Apple makes and thought "my phone is reliable, let;s try their computers". Yes, they are a little more than a bottom end PC but they are much more reliable than one too. And let us all not forget, HP, Dell, Lenovo, etc all make computers as expensive as or more expensive than any Mac model.

After all, the PC industry is down and yet Apple keeps increasing sales and marketshare? Think long and hard as to why and your answer will be "because people are fed up with Windows". Same thing happened to GM....
@itguy10 Agree with you. The world has changed quite a bit. And Steve Ballmer is more interested in mocking Apple and Android than delivering. Even their WP7 fails to make headway in the US.

If W8 is good AND if HP/Dell succeed in making Ultrabooks that cost half of a typical Macbook Air, then they may at least get some more market share. The current crop of Ultrabooks leave a lot to be desired and you are better off buying a Macbook Air. Some of them use regular hard drives. Most of their touch/track pads are horrible to use compared to a Macbook Air. And they are not cheap either.
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So in short...
Mikael_z 23rd Feb
@iRMX
HP and Dell don't sell PCs even nearly as much as they'd like because they suck. I've known that for years but for most consumers they needed the eyeopener called Apple. IT is too important to sell cheap.
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LOL!
William Farrel Updated - 23rd Feb
@itguy10
Once again you show you haven't a clue as to what you're talking about
or is it you're just a troll? The jury's still out on that question.

If people don't want Windows, how come the 4 people I know with Macs have Windows 7 running on it? It came that way? ;)

The PC industry always drops right before the release of a new version of Windows, and in 28 years 122 million Macs have been sold, and yet as of the end of 2011 over 450 million copies of Windows 7 have been sold So, think long and hard as to why and your answer will be "because people are excited about new versions of Windows".

The sales figures prove that without any doubt. happy
@William Farrel
I know. I feel sorry for itguy's customers, assuming he has any. What a tool. A real itguy is not a fanboy of any company.
@William Farrel

Same here, my successful customers bought Macs to carry between home and work. They also bought full list price copies of Windows 7 to run our SQL Server Express based product. Most of our customers use regular Windows PCs throughout the business. Most of those owners have a Mac as well.
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iPhone... reliable? Joke?
deadly_dodo@... Updated - 23rd Feb
@itguy10 I'm sorry, iPhone? Reliable? do you remember when they were first released? Because of the iPhone the world has a new term for the catastrophic failure of an electronic device... 'Bricking'.

That is not the hallmark of a reliable anything!
@deadly_dodo@... actually the term 'Bricking' has been in use for some time, just not so well known then as it is now.

But... point taken happy
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Bricking?
michaellashinsky@... 5th Mar
Wasn't bricking what happened after you jailbraked you iPhone and then updated software from Apple?

That doesn't apply to the majority of people. (Not that I am defending Apple. I don't own an iAnything, but bricking the device is a pretty crappy way to treat your customers, even if they do like to tinker...)
@itguy10 What?
@itguy10 As far as costing a little more...maybe not once you add in the Wintel security tax for your yearly antivirus subscription, and the cost of other software for your Wintel that comes free with a Mac.
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@techboy_z
There is a reason that software comes free on a Mac. You get what you pay for.
COMODO Internet Security is a free service.
1 Vote
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Before they acted, and that was only after an internal memo leaked to the press where they were telling their tech support to ignore them. Whoever you are and whatever you are using, you had better have some security on your system. Other than that you are wide open to be picked off.
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@phonyitguy10
At least when I purchase a PC from these vendors, I'm aware that I am not being ripped off ala Apple.
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@itguy10 I generally laugh at your comments as most are just so obtuse but I have to comment on this one as always you mislead with this set of comments.

I can certainly attest to how unreliable my wife's IPhone 4s is. She literally has to reset the damn thing every 2-3 days. Easy to use, sure. I guess.

You are misleading people with comments of increasing sales, percentages and marketshare. I'm no mathematician and please correct me if I am wrong, Apple sold 4.8 million units this quarter, a 16% increase. That means they sold 756,000 units more than the previous quarter at best. HP sold 62 million last year, Dell sold 44.3 million units last year, Lenovo sold 44 million units laster with Acer and Asus at 50 mil. All told, almost 201 million units. Even if HP sold 3% less units this quarter over last, they still sold 15 million freaking units in the quarter. That's more MAC's then Apple sold all last year practically. Dell had a 3% increase in units sold according to this article which puts them right around 11.5 per quarter. Apple has a long to go to make up those kind of numbers.

And as to your comment of MAC hardware being more reliable. My MAC mini just decided not to power up today for some reason. Just under 1.6 months old. That doesn't seem all that reliable to me as my $640 HP6530b sitting right next to it is running just fine.

Same thing happened to GM???? 8 billion this year!!! Best year for in history for GM!

Just my 2 cents is all.
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Partially agree with you
techenduser 24th Feb
Windows is tired and old and if I could get the total Android experience on my pc I would chuck it like and old fat girlfriend. Windows adds to the declination of the pc experience and those every Tuesday updates pretty much create end user problems. You system might be working fine before the update.

Apple is just the new flavor. It will run its course. Some are already signing off. For me I don't like the basic designs of the only two models they do have and I don't want a lit piece of fruit on my computer. You had better come better than that. Hardly cutting edge design and the air looks so cheap and flimsy. The other one the pro looks clunky and plain.
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Good thing Apple's doing good in the midst of all the Windows dreg out there.

http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2012/01/12/mac-sales-zigged-as-windows-sales-sagged-in-q4/
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@ScorpioBlack
Windows "PC"'s not Windows itself. Since many a Mac user runs Windows 7 on their Macs, seems like MS is the one making money, too. happy
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@William Farrel
Exactly. I only know of a couple of people that bought Macs...and they both use Windows 7. They just liked the hardware.
1 Vote
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@ScorpioBlack While HP & Dell EBITA fell, Microsoft's rose. Remember Microsoft continues to make shiploads of cash even while the entire PC industry is "dying".
Windows "PC"'s not Windows itself.

Gee, ya could've fooled me.

Since many a Mac user runs Windows 7 on their Macs, seems like MS is the one making money, too

Not enough to keep them in business.

@ScorpioBlack While HP & Dell EBITA fell, Microsoft's rose. Remember Microsoft continues to make shiploads of cash even while the entire PC industry is "dying".

Yes, they're help putting them out of business.
-1 Votes
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MS makes more money...
techenduser 24th Feb
Off of enterprise than consumer based windows. They had an article in Business Insider.
-1 Votes
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It's there in b/w
ScorpioBlack 24th Feb
@techenduser now if the article is a lie then tell us. K?
0 Votes
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Remember, gentlemen. The numbers in that article don't lie. It's there in b/w no matter how much you spin it.
1 Vote
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The real problem is...
NoAxToGrind 23rd Feb
The real problem is there are no visionaries in the PC world. Everything comes down to who can build a PC the cheapest and do the same old tasks a little faster. I look at myself and the (gasp) three year old PC on my desk. It's a quad CPU based machine with 12 gig of RAM, a terabyte hard drive and a fast dual display video card.

I could easily afford to buy a new machine but come to the same point everytime I consider it and that is "why"? So I can trim .002 seconds off a spreadsheet recalculation, type faster in a Word document, use a stop watch to know it may be rendering a web page faster, etc. etc.? Pfftt.... not happening.

I would bet that if I measured it my PC runs at *maybe* 25% of capacity during my busiest part of the work day. If I look at the full 8 to 10 hour day it would probably be around 5%.

If manufacutres want me to upgrade, then give a reason beyound "its faster" because faster simply has no meaning at this point.
@NoAxToGrind
I think this is it. PC's last longer than they ever have before, Moore's law is dead, and Windows hasn't changed much since Vista in 2006. The iPad is hot right now and has satisfied the itch for gadget lovers. Windows 8 will be different and available on many different form factors. Whether or not consumers get excited about it we will know after Christmas sales results are in.
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I agree. We've upgraded our OS
William Farrel 23rd Feb
@NoAxToGrind
on our work machines to Windows 7 from XP and Vista, and they run just fine.

Why upgrade a Core2 Duo to an i3 or i5 if there's no need?
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@William Farrel
On work machines you are running a risk by not refreshing the hardware. For consumers this risk isn't too great, but at work unplanned downtime costs money.
2 Votes
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@William Farrel - Exactly right. And to lippidp below, there is NO risk in not refreshing business hardware that continues to do its job. We extended to 4 year cycles a while back, but the practical policy is "when it breaks, replace it." If it doesn't break and runs the required functional set, it stays forever. And we have saved a ton of money.
0 Votes
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Why upgrade a Core2 Duo to an i3 or i5 if there's no need?

Money. Doh
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@NoAxToGrind Nothing new? What about Windows 8, Windows Phone, Kinect? Those seem to be completely new experiences.
@MSFTWorshipper

And where are the products that actually use them or do things better? I mean you can put as many front end GUI's on things as you like but its still a speadsheet, word document ot web page. yawn....
0 Votes
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You should keep what you have...
techenduser 24th Feb
And I would take it 3 years old because it would out perform the junk they are putting out today. I have an old desktop with an ATI graphics card at 256 mb that out performs my Nvidia with 1 Gb of ram. i will throw the video up on youtube. The graphics are even better with the 3D rendering. The XPS has an i5 processor however the desktop just has a dual core and loads and runs faster. The new stuff barely functions. My laptop is down more than up and my desktop always works as should. Your system sounds right on the money.
I think that many people are putting off upgrading an older computer to buy an iPad or a smartphone. Not that either of these devices replace a PC, but they certainly take some of the need for many to upgrade every couple of years. People will still buy PCs, but at a slower rate than the past decade as they also integrate other devices into their lives.
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You may be closer too the truth...
techenduser 24th Feb
In some regards, you are right. The older computers work fine it is the newer ones that are pure crap. If you bought one before everyone went cheap Chinese then you don't need to upgrade. Your equipment works and works fine. Anything afterwards is in a constant repair cycle. Dell sells pure crap. They earned their place at the bottom, combine that with the Indian tech support and it is a disaster of a company. After one experience dealing with either or both you won't be buying from them again.
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@ No Axe to grid
Let's take a neutral look at this 23rd Feb
I think you're right. But the reason is 2 fold. First of all. People like something new. That's why a lot of people are going to apple now, they like it new and fresh a different way of working. But there are also a lot of people switching to Windows believe it or not. I am one of them. Why you might ask, well I've already provided the answer already, I've worked with Mac, it's a great experience, but it's not new to me anymore. And Mountain Lion isn't giving my that shot of new that I need. I'm looking forward to Windows 8, because it's new it's different. As for the remark a person made about WP7, I'd give it a little longer before saying it's a failure, simply because it's new. I see a lot of people here turning to that platform.

However Noaxetogrid nails it with his idea on why sales of the PC are slowing down, with one thing to add. It's true that nothing new is being offered, it's the same but a bit faster. but there is also the following factor, first of all Mac sales are slowing down, so I don't know where you get the info on them having continuous growth. But there is a reason for that, people want to wait for Mountain Lion cuz let's face it, why buy a mac now when in a few months, you'll have to spend another 30 dollars on the new OS and you'll have less up to date hardware. Now put yourself on the PC market. Why buy a PC now when in 9 months you'll have to buy an OS that costs 150 dollar and your Hardware will me a little more out of date. And why would you do that.

But also Apple Hardware VS HP or Dell is a major differences. If they should've learned anything from Steve Jobs it's keep it simple. Make a few models, make em good, make em solid. Then you can provide good service.

Microsoft's mistake is to not make the experience for users 'fun' enough.

For the Mac fanboys and there are plenty here I can see. Yes the whole experience for the 'IT illiterate' consumer is better on a mac, hands down. However if I look around I see a new generation of youngsters brought up with IT, 15 years olds hacking their iphones and Android phones and more stuff like that. If Microsoft can make Windows 8 fun again, then the fact that it is more complicated will not be an issue. The proof is Android, more complicated and prone to crash than iOS but has a bigger marketshare.

One thing is for sure, Windows 8 is a make or break moment for Microsoft, if it fails the Apple boys will be dancing on it's grave, if it's a success, Then Steve Ballmer will be dancing and screaming 'DEVELOPPERS' all over again.
@Let's take a neutral look at this

If Windows 8 is a make or break thing for MS, then I fear it wil be break. Why? Slapping a new GUI to do the same old things is about a 10 minute wow factor, after that....

This is my take on it, MS and even the PC manufacutres are missing the bus for home use and have for years. They believe home use means either gaming or running a bootleg copy of office at home and internet surfing. Due to being in bed with outfits like the RIAA and MPAA has ruined their opportunity to move into the living room with anything innovative due to digital rights management (or whatever name you like to call it.) I've looked at all the current offerings for the so called media hub and IMHO they all suck and no user really wants them.

They have aslo missed the boat on the home server and what it could have been. (MS blew that all by themselves.) We could EASILY have a real home server with terminals, or even simple display "pads" that do everything multiple PCs do in thehome, have digital entertainment the way users want it but... Not happening.

I also look at the raw unused power of the average quad core machine and ask why the "operating system" hasn't made the leap to at least rudimentary artificial intelegence. I see what Siri (iPhone) is doing and it could be much more if it had the power of a full blown PC stuffed with RAM. Add Kinnect to follow human gestures and you've got a very powerful base to build up on.

But like i said, that requires vision and that just doesn't seem to exist in PC companies anymore and the bean counters are running things,,, right into the ground.
@NoAxToGrind

First, Siri is not as good as the pre-existing Microsoft/True Speech that has been running in cars for several years. Best comment I've seen on Siri is that it comes back with things out of "kids say the darndest things", plus it does not function locally.
Second, Kinect is the fastest selling device/gadget these days. Microsoft has just released Kinect for the PC and the SDK that goes with it. You obviously have not been to a Microsoft boot camp or programmers training in the last couple of years. No promotion or support available for anything that is not cloud ready. You can't qualify for joint promotions if your product does not have some cloud component. The Microsoft juggernaut is turning. We have just decided to call the current version of our product the last of this technology and start into WinRT. Win8 has native C++ and C# libraries. Win 8 has a small footprint (about 250mb). Power management is much more precise, needs to be to hit that 8 to 10 hours without a charge point.
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@NoAxToGrind
I am very interested to see what their hardware partners produce. I think we will see some pretty compelling devices. If so, I'll be the first to purchase one. I've never seen the draw of an ipad. The executives where I work don't even use them, and the few support folks that have to support them absolutely despise them. An enterprise ready device would be welcomed with open arms.
Dell and HP basically ignored the source of their wealth which is Microsoft. Dell dedicated too much time to the Android platform and should have focused more attention on WP7. HP felt it go it alone without MS and pursued their own mobile os strategy, an area they don't have great expertise in. Both companies need too fully embrace and promote Windows 8, build Windows Phones and make sure their hardware platforms are fully optimized for both operating systems. They've wasted a lot of time the last few years. Microsoft has finally go their act together. Dell and HP need to follow suit.
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@clue88 - If that was really true, then other PC makers like Acer, Sony and Lenovo would be doing better. But here's the sad fact: WP7 was a failure, the sales numbers don't even register. Windows 8 doesn't exist yet. Neither Dell nor HP being onboard would have changed that.

Both HP and Dell suffered from the same problem that No Axe has already outlined: lack of innovation. Neither of them put any real investment in doing original work like Apple did. Now they are paying the price.
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@terry flores
WP7 may be a sales disappointment at this point in time, but is obvious that you have never tried one. They are wildly successful in creating a superior user experience to everything else on the market.
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response
clue88 23rd Feb
I didn't think Lenovo was doing that bad, their products are quite good. Sony and Acer have always been odd balls in the mix. Acer is just cheap and Sony has no idea where they belong.

Dell did attempt several android products which failed, HP went with Web OS and didn't know what to do with it. In both cases, it seems both Dell and HP were looking to be less reliant on Microsoft.

I know Windows 8 is not here yet, but Microsoft's only weak spot lie with the hardware partners who are not standing behind them. It's incredibly foolish move on their part.

If you haven't noticed, the stars are beginning to align again at Microsoft. The only thing that can kill Microsoft at this point is remaining stagnant which is not happening.

At this point, every computer company outside of Apple, whether it be Dell, HP, Acer, whoever will continue to be stagnant if Windows 8 does not succeed.
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Apple isn't original
techenduser 24th Feb
All of it is cheap Chinese doesn't matter who's name is on it or what it looks like. Apple's OS is so bland and who wants a computer with a lit piece of fruit on it? Is it Christmas or Halloween all year? They have the nerve to make the logo huge. Anyway, the problem is faulty equipment and it doesn't matter what OS you use for that the outcome will be the same. I'm waiting for someone to bring the complete Android experience to the desktop environment.
@clue88 +1
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Dell has Android?
techenduser 24th Feb
Most of the crap they ship has Windows. I ordered an XPS and did not see a choice for Android for I would have taken that over Windows. Their equipment is the problem not software. The equipment is crap. They source out the cheapest possible parts, put them in a shiny case and sale them at high prices. I finally got tired of the crappy laptop they sent me and bought a new one from someone else.
1 Vote
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Except for gamers and graphic intensive users, there hasn't been a new killer application to drive hardware upgrades in quite awhile. Especially in the home market where they are largely used for word processing, email, and Facebook type applications. Even corporate refresh cycles are being stretched from the traditional 3 years to 4 and 5 for much the same reason. I've upgraded the CAD machines, but see nothing driving replacement of other administrative desktops.

I'm also of the opinion that if they are counting on Windows 8 to be the savior they are in big trouble. Many are just now making the move from XP and I haven't seen any "must haves" in windows 8 for the desktop or laptop users.
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They're toast....
sameer_singh17 20th Mar
The biggest mistake both companies are making right now is to focus all their energies on Windows 8. Windows 8 doesn't have great odds of success when you consider the needs of their target segments.

Companies like Lenovo, Acer & Asus, have hedged their bets with Android, and that's a smart move. Asus, in particular, will be leading this change of guard.

Detailed analysis here - http://www.tech-thoughts.net/

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