ie8 fix

Between the Lines

Larry Dignan, Andrew Nusca and Rachel King

Google ready to settle with Oracle over Android IP?

By | July 20, 2011, 2:20pm PDT

Google and Oracle continue to bicker over whether their courtroom battle over whether Android infringes on Java patents, but there’s at least a hint that the search giant may want to settle out of court.

The two parties filed a joint response focusing on whether their trial should be stayed as Oracle’s patent standing is resolved. Not surprisingly, Google wants a stay. Oracle wants to go to trial without a stay so it can pelt Google with every patent it has. Florian Mueller has the recap of the stay issue and the Oracle and Google back and forth.

However, the one line that caught Mueller’s eye is the passage below. The document is embedded via Scribd below.

Indeed, should this case be narrowed to only a few claims modified in the course of the reexamination, any damages claim would be materially limited by, among other things, the doctrine of intervening rights. Such a narrowed case will also eliminate the need for those efforts specifically directed at the claims rejected through reexamination, including motion practice, expert reports, and other trial preparation, as well as make it more likely that the parties could reach an informal resolution of the matter. In short, both parties and the Court would benefit from a stay pending reexamination.

Informal resolution? Google appears to be willing to pass a few billion to resolve this IP nightmare.

Mueller noted:

In principle, it’s constructive if a party indicates a willingness to settle. But there’s a fundamental difference between negotiating in private and letting the court (as well as the public) know — more than three months before the scheduled trial (!) — that one isn’t so sure of one’s defenses anymore. This stands in clear contradiction to Google’s past positions and declarations, and it looks increasingly like an admission all by itself. Discovery is almost complete, and it probably didn’t go too well for Google.

In other words, Oracle clearly has Google in the crosshairs. Oracle argued that the case needs to be resolved quickly because Android is gaining share and the infringement will only get worse. The possible outcomes go like this:

  • The judge decides on a stay and the two parties may settle.
  • The judge agrees with Oracle and this lawsuit goes to trial. A good scenario for Oracle.
  • Oracle sees that “informal resolution” remark and the two parties start talking.

Also see:

googorcl072011

Kick off your day with ZDNet's daily e-mail newsletter. It's the freshest tech news and opinion, served hot. Get it.

Topics

Larry Dignan is Editor in Chief of ZDNet and SmartPlanet as well as Editorial Director of ZDNet's sister site TechRepublic.

Disclosure

Larry Dignan

Larry Dignan has nothing to disclose. He doesn’t hold investments in the technology companies he covers.

Biography

Larry Dignan

Larry Dignan is Editor in Chief of ZDNet and SmartPlanet as well as Editorial Director of ZDNet's sister site TechRepublic. He was most recently Executive Editor of News and Blogs at ZDNet. Prior to that he was executive news editor at eWeek and news editor at Baseline. He also served as the East Coast news editor and finance editor at CNET News.com. Larry has covered the technology and financial services industry since 1995, publishing articles in WallStreetWeek.com, Inter@ctive Week, The New York Times, and Financial Planning magazine. He's a graduate of the Columbia School of Journalism and the University of Delaware.

For daily updates, follow Larry on Twitter.

65
Comments

Join the conversation!

Just In

RE: Google ready to settle with Oracle over Android IP?
kidneyy 9th Oct
We absolutely love your blog and find most of your post's to be exactly I'm looking for. can you offer guest writers to write content for yourself? I wouldn't mind producing a post or elaborating on some of the subjects you write related to here. Again, awesome website! gout diet
0 Votes
+ -
Brilliant analysis Florian
otaddy 20th Jul
I wish ZDnet would hire this guy already instead of quoting him all of the time. Then I could easily ignore his articles.
0 Votes
+ -
@otaddy Muller hates Google and Android. No wonder they quote him all the time. All I see here is Google trying to get the court for stay so that the patent office has enough time to re-examine the weak Oracle patents.
@tatiGmail What are his credentials? Is he a patent lawyer that has won cases for his clients? If so, then we should pay attention to his commentary, otherwise, his value as a source is nil.

ZDnet thinks that by quoting him, their articles are more legitimate. Actually, it has the opposite effect.
0 Votes
+ -
@tatiGmail Hypothetically, and assuming that Google would have been working on Android before Oracle bought Sun, does the title to my contribution stand?
There's a cul t ure of buying technology companies in order to sue competitors who may (or may not) have infringed a patent owned by the purchased co mpanies. Frankly, I feel that if the original patent owner didn't sue, a subsequent owner shouldn't be able to either. It'd keep things so much easier!
I do wish that the families of the victims were all compensated for. his accidents shouldn't have happened in the first place if there were more traffic signs. this is my Website and it is related to the Printing. Visit it and buy online custom folders || Custom Pocket Folders
0 Votes
+ -
I fully agree , if the original patent owner didn ' t sue , the new owner shouldn't be able to , it would be much easier indeed. But that's probably too easy and makes too much sense to adopt wink
0 Votes
+ -
@tatiGmail Muller does hate Google and Android , that much is very , very clear for all to see . I Personally think that whoever owns the patent has the right to challenge anything they like , since they do have the right to do so.
0 Votes
+ -
I ' d like to know more of his credentials and his win to loss ratio before validating his value . There seems to be lots of quoting going on , but lets keep the quotes valid .
@otaddy Mueller's a proven shill... I'm sick of seeing him cited as an IP expert. He's not a lawyer, and barely a programmer.
0 Votes
+ -
yes, it's true
thx-1138_@... Updated - 21st Jul
@otaddy .. (aka Mueller) is a closed-source, puppet / whipping boy. He poses as the fake/pretentious advocate of OSS. Truth is, he has the proverbial Punch & Judy stick shoved so far up his jacksie, it's given him a speech impediment.

As most have rightly and already said, it speaks volumes about how pathetic ZDNet have become. Each use (..re-use) of the tired and ridiculous party line / rhetoric / fabrications he serves up, only reinforces, more, the tabloid status of this site.
@thx-1138_@... Each use (..re-use) of the tired and ridiculous party line / rhetoric / fabrications he serves up,...
I am in no way defending Mueller, know nothing about him, but I do find it funny that you call him out but not the fanboys and haters that use the same tactics.
We absolutely love your blog and find most of your post's to be exactly I'm looking for. can you offer guest writers to write content for yourself? I wouldn't mind producing a post or elaborating on some of the subjects you write related to here. Again, awesome website! gout diet
0 Votes
+ -
I haven't read all of the pleadings and filings but from what I've read, this case is really coming down to Damages. How much will Google have to pay Oracle. As one of my law professors used to say (in his Yogi Berra way), anytime you are arguing over damages, you've already lost.

It seems that Google's position on damages is that the money that they are making off of Android is indirect. Google seems to be arguing that it's ad system is independent of Android and the profits made from it's ads should be excluded from any sort of settlement.

It's not a great argument and it's not a bad argument. It's a murky argument. Because it's murky, Oracle may want to settle in order to avoid losing outright.

The main problem that I see with Google's position is that even if the ad system is independent of Android, Android is not independent of Oracle. It is possible that a jury could find that Oracle actually 'owns' Android (or that Android is so substantially composed of code owned by Oracle that it cannot exist without Oracle's blessing). If this were to occur, Oracle could then say that we would have never allowed Google to put its ad system on our phones without retaining some profit for ourselves. From there, damages would attach (what is the reasonable value of licensing that Oracle would have charged Google for placing it's ad system on Android phones).

Um, if you are an exec for Amazon, please read what I just wrote.
@retnep
There are no ads placed "directly onto an android." It's all from mobile browsing, and that's if you have Google set as your mobile search engine (which you don't have to).

I think Google will get Oracle to settle.
@Droid101

This isn't 'mobile browsing' or a pc. These ads run within Android apps. If Oracle 'owns' Android, then Google doesn't have the 'right' to create and distribute an ad based system on someone else's software. If that were the case, then Google could theoretically release their own version of iOS with their own App store and their own version of WP7 with a Google App store.

See where this is going? If you are Amazon, I would watch this case very, very closely. Same with Barnes & Noble.
0 Votes
+ -
@Droid101

So mobile browsing does, in fact, count as part of Android.
@Everyone except Droid101 Oracle is claiming patent infringement regarding the use of Java. In no way shape or form does Oracle "own Android" even if it wins every claim it has.
@jgm
If Oracle is found to own a substantial portion of the source code, so long as that source code is used and belongs to Oracle, Oracle will continue to 'own' at least a portion of Android.
@jgm "Oracle is claiming patent infringement regarding the use of Java. In no way shape or form does Oracle "own Android" even if it wins every claim it has."

No, they would just own Androids ability to run apps...
@Droid101 Let's just say that that argument works, does that through the Android OEM's under the bus and it direct fire from Oracle?
0 Votes
+ -
@retnep

They have already said they see a plus side of $10-$15 per year per handset (or $20-$30 USD over a 2 year life span) of Android. On 100 million devices this equates to 1.0 to 1.5 billion/year.

SInce they said this prior to the lawsuit, it is hard for them to then say they don't really make money on Android.
0 Votes
+ -
Damages for what exactly????
johnmckay 24th Jul
@retnep

Oracle have no 'similar' product and have suffered no material loss in respect of anything to do with Android. They might be due cash relating to patents but that's a different argument.

How can Oracle own Android? You're clearly an Android hater.... Heaven help those of us who like it and use it in conjunction with IOS as the situation suits best. The world has gone completely nuts!
I cannot see how they have damaged Oracle anyway! Crud, somebody should litigate against Oracle for that flakey bug ridden garbage they call Java.
@Peter Perry I smell a troll here. Can you elaborate on your very precise and sourced opinion please, we would like to hear from you software luminary.
0 Votes
+ -
Explains one thing then..
Bruizer 20th Jul
@Peter Perry

The bug ridden garbage of Android? wink
0 Votes
+ -
Damages
retnep 20th Jul
@Peter Perry

For a lay person, I understand what you are saying. Your point is that 'hey, you weren't using this and if you were using it, you weren't doing a good job so I should be able to do what I want with it'.

While I understand the sentiment, imagine if you had a classic car that needed repair. Imagine one day someone came and took your car and said 'hey, you weren't doing anything with it'. What would you do?

Or better yet, imagine that you had a farm. Imagine that that someone came and harvested some of your goods and said 'you weren't going to harvest these anyway'. Then imagine they took your goods to the market and made it so that even if you wanted to take your goods to the market, you would be unlikely to be successful.

Unfortunately for Google, the law does not look favorably on such conduct. Intellectual Property is still property.
@retnep As long as the govt recognizes intellectual property, then you can buy/sell said property--it's what ownership of property grants.
@retnep Your comments make more sense.
0 Votes
+ -
Oracle has no case as shown on groklaw and should save itself from the embarassment of losing in court.
Nobody in the community should blink when dealing with the Axis of evil software(Oracle, Apple and M$).
The final victory is in sight and a new bright era will begun as soon as these cybercrooks are shamed in court!
@Linux Geek

I appreciate your love Linux. I use Linux every day on multiple computers. With that being said, I think Google is in real trouble here. I don't know Florian but just based on my reading of the case, I don't think this bodes well for Google.

In fact, to be honest, I've been surprised at just how weak Google's position has been (which seems to be exceptionally weak).
@retnep
you are ignorant on this issue. read groklaw and come back!
0 Votes
+ -
@Linux Geek

Why would I need to read groklaw when I can read the case? Groklaw hardly seems to be the place to get unbiased info.
@retnep

I am interested by what you say.

Google basically built an independent virtual machine (Dalvik) that implements a subset of the ISO standard Java syntax. But, there is no implementation of a Java or Java like language.

You need to download a recent version of Java, with the JRE, and also download the Android specific libraries. Then, you can write your Java program. After it is written, a Google created Java application translates the Java into the Dalvik dialect.

I don't see how this process can violate any reasonable Oracle patent.

The Java syntax is based on the C programming language, and virtual machines have been around since the 1960's. Sun (now Oracle) didn't invent either.

Google actually requires you to use Oracles product. I had to download Java from Oracle when I was experimenting with Android Apps.

Could you please explain what is the real issue here.

I do miss PJ.
0 Votes
+ -
Groklaw is of minimal value
Bruizer 20th Jul
@Linux Geek

Is highly biased and allows a strong political agenda color their analysis.
@Bruizer when PJ was the one writing and analyzing.

PJ was bias in favor of open source, but her analysis of cases were always neutral in tone and she usually backed up her opinions with evidence, links and supporting documentation.

Now that PJ is gone, the quality of the writing is down to nothing but highly bias opinions. The new guy does nothing to provide any supporting documentation to back the claims and his writings are in legalese garbage instead of "plain human" (like PJ used to do).
@wackoae I didn't realize she had left (I hadn't been over there in a long time). That makes a lot of sense, thanks. I'm pro-linux and open source, but this case doesn't seem to be as baseless as the SCO one was... It really appears that Google knew they were taking a chance when they decided clone the VM without working out a licsense with Sun. I'm not a big fan of software patents, but as long as they exist you have to follow the law or expect the consequences. Hopefully they can get this settled out of court without too big of damage to Andoid.
@Bruizer Never been to Groklaw but the fact that Linux Geek is constantly calling them out as the best source basically convinced me it had to be completely biased in his favor.
Please let me know if you're looking for a author for your site. You have some really great posts and I believe I would be a good asset. If you ever want to take some of the load off, I'd absolutely love to write some content for your blog in exchange for a link back to mine. Please send me an email if interested. Regards! gates millenium scholarship
0 Votes
+ -
Google should be banned from doing business. The most evil and unethical company in modern history, and that Schmidt is an utter jerk.
@owlnet
go back to your M$ monkey code keyboard, you are clueless!
@Linux Geek
Talking about yourself. wink
@owlnet
Aren't you the idiot who said Apple shares will crash in 6 months in comments for another article.
Yes, this guy Mueller gets quoted all the time with no real counterweight analysis...
0 Votes
+ -
@erictechleeds
They should include an objective and award winning industry expert like Dr. Roy Schestowitz who exposes Florian Muller as a stooge for the Axis of Evil software here:
http://techrights.org/2011/07/18/linux-fud-and-android-fud/
0 Votes
+ -
He lost it when...
Bruizer 20th Jul
@Linux Geek

He wrote it is alot like the SCO case. Nothing like the SCO case.
0 Votes
+ -
@Linux Geek They quote him all the time. I gotta give Flori credit for one thing though: He sure knows how to promote himself.
@erictechleeds

He also said that Linux was doomed by SCO's clear legal case. The Judge had a different opionion. The Jury took less than an hour to come back and tell SCO that Novel was right on every instance.

Florian Mueller is not an expert on US law. He has been wrong on these things more often than right. But, I am sure that he is a good guy, just out of his area of competency.
0 Votes
+ -
Logic?
JohnVoter 20th Jul
One sentence about an "informal resolution" and Muller builds an entire house of cards in the shape of an inverted pyramid out of it!

What is the evidence that discovery "probably isn't going well" for Google? One word intended to convince the judge that Google is willing to settle out of court, if only Google gets it's stay!
"as make it more likely that the parties could reach an informal resolution of the matter". The point is first of all that this is purely Mueller speculation, and second that the fact that the parties could reach a resolution does not means that they want to. Actually, given the fact that several claims were already dismissed, I would say that there is still much uncertainty around who can win. As for the alleged stolen source code, it was not shipped in phones, so even if it can be found true it will not contribute to damages (in the case that damages are awarded). At the moment, I would say that the real core of the lawsuit is around patents, and those are heavily debated right now.
0 Votes
+ -
Claims not dismissed..
retnep Updated - 21st Jul
@cdaffara@...

I'm not trying to be overly technical, but those claims were not dismissed. In the initial re-examination, the PTO did reject 4 of Oracle's patents and upheld 1. The claims for the 4 patents aren't dismissed however. Oracle can appeal the ruling of the PTO (and almost certainly will) and Oracle can still proceed to trial.

If you recall last week, the ITC ruled 7-2 in favor of HTC over Apple. However, those 2 patents that were ruled in favor of Apple were deemed to be huge. Oracle doesn't have to win every patent claim to be successful.

Furthermore, Oracle has a copy-write claim against Google which pretty much is uncontested. The patent claims are the 'sexy' claims but the copy-write claims can be just as damaging (at least in a retrospective sense; it might be easier to re-write code in a way that doesn't infringe on copy-write then it is to redesign something that doesn't infringe on a patent, but the retrospective damages for the use of the unauthorized copy-write remains).

Join the conversation!

Formatting +
BB Codes - Note: HTML is not supported in forums
  • [b] Bold [/b]
  • [i] Italic [/i]
  • [u] Underline [/u]
  • [s] Strikethrough [/s]
  • [q] "Quote" [/q]
  • [ol][*] 1. Ordered List [/ol]
  • [ul][*] · Unordered List [/ul]
  • [pre] Preformat [/pre]
  • [quote] "Blockquote" [/quote]
ie8 fix

The best of ZDNet, delivered

ZDNet Newsletters

Get the best of ZDNet delivered straight to your inbox

Facebook Activity

White Papers, Webcasts, & Resources
ie8 fix