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Between the Lines

Larry Dignan, Andrew Nusca and Rachel King

Google, Verizon are right to push out the wireless net neutrality talk

By | August 11, 2010, 5:18am PDT

As with all things having to do with net neutrality the debate went from zero to way overblown and emotional as soon as Google and Verizon posted a proposal on where they stand. The source of the entire hubbub—the idea that wireless access should have different rules for now—seems to reflect the reality that mobile networks aren’t even built out yet.

But reality isn’t going to stop anyone from screaming—a lot.

The Google-Verizon compromise raised quite a ruckus. The big issue for some folks—there’s actually compromise. You can twirl around in a circle and hit someone saying Google sold out. And of course, the telecom carriers are always portrayed as evil. However, the Google-Verizon proposal has a bevy of items that make sense on the wireline front. The Electronic Frontier Foundation has a nice analysis of the nuances here and at least tries to cut through the clutter.

Overall, the Google-Verizon missive isn’t all that jarring—until you get to the wireless part of the net neutrality issue. Then the technology peanut gallery goes nuclear. Is Google really “carrier-humping net neutrality surrender monkey“?

Here’s the passage in the Google-Verizon proposal that has many folks freaked out:

We both recognize that wireless broadband is different from the traditional wireline world, in part because the mobile marketplace is more competitive and changing rapidly. In recognition of the still-nascent nature of the wireless broadband marketplace, under this proposal we would not now apply most of the wireline principles to wireless, except for the transparency requirement. In addition, the Government Accountability Office would be required to report to Congress annually on developments in the wireless broadband marketplace, and whether or not current policies are working to protect consumers.

In other words, the core concepts of net neutrality—consumers have open choice and content won’t be discriminated against on networks—that apply for wired access shouldn’t be lording over the wireless industry yet. Notice Google and Verizon didn’t say that net neutrality will NEVER apply to the wireless industry. Just not now. The two companies decided that it’s best to kick the issue down the road.

Why would the companies put off wireless net neutrality? Here are a few reasons:

  • Wireless networks aren’t built out and aren’t even close to reaching parity with wireline access. Let Verizon, AT&T and the rest of the gang install 4G LTE networks before you start yapping about whether you can have video streaming and other bandwidth hogging downloads at the expense of my calls. Regulating wireless access at this point in time would be like the FCC mandating net neutrality back in the dial-up access days. It’s silly since many of the things you do on wireline networks you simply can’t in the wireless world—at least not without some pain.
  • Wireless networks have spectrum issues. Wireline networks have the throughput to have a discussion about something like BitTorrent can ride shotgun with a PowerPoint presentation. Simply put, the pipes are big enough. Wireless networks are constrained due to spectrum. You have to manage a network with limited resources. That fact isn’t going to change for the foreseeable future.
  • The wireless market is immature and the law of unintended consequences is magnified in nascent areas. The EFF notes that the big issue with net neutrality is that there’s a “substantial danger that the regulators will cause more harm than good for the Internet.” Just imagine how bad Washington could screw up the already partly dysfunctional wireless industry.

Perhaps Google and Verizon could have avoided the firestorm over wireless neutrality if they proposed some sort of timeline. For instance, FCC could be tasked to evaluate wireless net neutrality every two years or take a phased approach to implementing the concepts. Instead, Google and Verizon proposed an annual GAO report.

Bottom line: Google and Verizon made a logical proposal to put off net neutrality on the wireless front. Some would call that a sell-out move. I’d call it a reflection of network realities.

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Larry Dignan is Editor in Chief of ZDNet and SmartPlanet as well as Editorial Director of ZDNet's sister site TechRepublic.

Disclosure

Larry Dignan

Larry Dignan has nothing to disclose. He doesn’t hold investments in the technology companies he covers.

Biography

Larry Dignan

Larry Dignan is Editor in Chief of ZDNet and SmartPlanet as well as Editorial Director of ZDNet's sister site TechRepublic. He was most recently Executive Editor of News and Blogs at ZDNet. Prior to that he was executive news editor at eWeek and news editor at Baseline. He also served as the East Coast news editor and finance editor at CNET News.com. Larry has covered the technology and financial services industry since 1995, publishing articles in WallStreetWeek.com, Inter@ctive Week, The New York Times, and Financial Planning magazine. He's a graduate of the Columbia School of Journalism and the University of Delaware.

For daily updates, follow Larry on Twitter.

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RE: Google, Verizon are right to push out the wireless net neutrality talk
tomlin21-24319035676893835085146735905770 11th Oct
I unearth out a bit of some thing new on totally totally different sites day-to-day. It happens to be continuously football jerseys refreshing to scan posts of other bloggers and find out about just one factor from them. Countless many thanks for sharing.
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Only Neutrality of Wireless
charbax@... 11th Aug 2010
The only Neutrality that I think should be regulated for wireless should be that the use of VOIP should not be blocked from wireless data plans. For example, as far as I know, VOIP is currently just about blocked by packet filtering on all major carriers.

It should be clear and transparent when buying a 1GB or 10GB wireless data package, that this bandwidth should be usable for anything the user wants. But especially the use of VOIP should not be down-prioritized and blocked.

In fact, I think it should be possible for users to purchase high quality bandwidth for their VOIP usage specifically so that the quality is at least as good as normal voice usage.
Good grief . talk about fiddling while Rome is burning! The demand for bandwidth is growing faster than the bandwidth. Which means that we are going to hit an impasse, where the greedy abuse the system at the expense of others. If people want to load their Netflix, Ipod movies, PRON, backup their computers etc. and be heavy users - then pay more. Last I looked, we live in a pay-as-you-go country not a communistic society!
@gboddy@... "communistic society"

STOP with the mindless knee jerk sloganeering !!!
.... and I suppose the big bad communistic government is behind that oppressive, we've all got to drive on the right side of the road dictatorship thingy.

Government bad corporations good, it is just that simple for you is it ???
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@raycote: I think you missed his point. So you work hard (assuming) and you earn an income and strive to better your life and can now obtain some nice things in life. While Schmoo over here doesn't do crap, but because the sorry butt administration we have now feels sorry for the individual (who doesn't do anything to help himself) so they are going to give him the same level of living that you have and just worked hard to obtain and pay your taxes because for things like infrastructure a grade-a military basic needs, it's the proper and right thing to do. Seeing the above - and it happens all over the place - how hard you going to work in the future to better yourself and family knowing - hey I can sit on butt to and get the same thing. Oops - there went your tax base...and believe me the scenario feeds on itself like a nasty recession. Just ask Europe who is in a bigger mess than we are at this point in some areas...more going out in free services than coming in.
@ItsTheBottomLine

While Schmoo over here doesn't do crap, but because the sorry butt administration we have now feels sorry for the individual (who doesn't do anything to help himself) so they are going to give him the same level of living that you have...

What are you referring to? Unemployment insurance? Welfare? Food stamps?

Do you really believe that people on those or any public assistance (though I would not classify unemployment insurance as assistance) have the same standard of living as a successful working person?



happy
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No way....
linux for me 11th Aug 2010
@gboddy If I pay for service at XX speed, then I should get my service at the speed I paid for, regardless of the type of data I am accessing.

Once a multi-tiered system is implemented, only those who can pay the much higher rates will have have access, and the rest of the net will be left behind. Deals will be made that if you pay XXX dollars for this service, you can get it faster. Each service will start charging for access which has already been paid when you purchased your connection in the first place!

This will be the death of the internet unless all data is treated the same.
@linux for me "Once a multi-tiered system is implemented, only those who can pay the much higher rates will have have access,..." what are you talking about that is in place now, unless I'm not understanding. You want unlimited - you pay for it, you want 30 mb download speed - you pay for it. My in-laws cannot pay for it so they don't have it...I'm not sure how that is my problem. I don't have the money to pay for it - guess what I don't have it either. Seems fair to me.
@linux for me Dissertations
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@gboddy@... While at 1st blush I agree with this but I will have to think about it some more. However, knee jerk reaction is yes if you want to download movies...pay for it, if you don't then get your big rear-end in the car and go to Blockbuster. If I want to backup to some Internet based backup site that will probably be bankrupt in 5 years with my data, then yes I have to pay for it, otherwise burn a DVD/CD series and be happy with it, if all you need is to download emails and stay connected with the outsider, then dial-up will work for even facebook and email. Right now if I want a 30Mb connection for high-speed at home, I'm going to have to pay for it. We seem to be too concerned with giving away and making things equal for everyone in ALL areas of society (not talking rights or jobs, etc.), even life itself doesn't work that way, and trying to reach that fictional "Utopia" from Star Trek has historically failed, some people just don't seem to see that. Just because John Q. has something I don't have doesn't mean it's not fair, it means he probably worked his butt off and acheived the means to get that or desire, that's called life and what makes us work harder.
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I agree to a point
stano360 11th Aug 2010
@gboddy@... only demand is not growing faster that available bandwidth. It's just not that simple. We have three pc's and an Xbox and we hardly ever slow down due to bandwidth issues. Granted I have Fios, but still, that says nothing about the back-end. There is lots of fiber out there (probably a lot not even lit).

But I full agree that most of this talk is just so much Marxist-lite.
@gboddy@... Very good information .... Thanks guy...
Assignments
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@johnny48 Very nice Site number one topic Thanks you..
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i don't want the government controlling what content is 'prioritized' on mobile networks any more than I want large companies doing the same thing. that is the antithesis of the internet. i have to disagree that the mobile industry won't be able to keep up with bandwidth demands. in the business, that's what we call a problem you WANT to have. during times of record profits for telco's, they need to keep investing in their infrastructure which has already fallen behind the infrastructure of many other countries. 'fixing' the issue by prioritizing data that they choose (ie: whichever content providers have the deepest pockets) and charging the end user a premium for the prioritized service is against the spirit and innovation of the internet that helped create companies like...facebook, twitter...google. other start up companies need the same opportunity on an open playing field to provide their content on both wireless / wired networks. the internet's abuzz for good reason.
@digitalogic
The government shouldn't control or prioritize content, but they should make it illegal for internet providers to do so.
@RedVeg So basically what you two are saying is that an internet provider who is purchasing their bandwidth from a company like Quest, or Microsoft shouldn't be allowed to limit a person's bandwidth?

So lets say you decide you want to start an internet company and end up purchasing 150mbps fiber from one of these companies. Great! Now for some customers, we'll offer them 10mbps connection speeds and unlimited data because I don't believe in priority or limitations. Your first 50 customers are pretty excited but now look, you've got a few people who are on welfare and watch TV over their internet all day. Wow these 3 or 4 people are using 30-40mbps of your 150mbps fiber.. They're on a cell tower that can only handle 40 mbps of traffic, and are backhauled to another tower than can handle 80, then finally get to your fiber cable. Everyone on their tower other than those two (since you don't have priority set up) now isn't getting for the internet they paid for. There's the scenario for you on a small scale.
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What I would like to see is some competition and innovation on the Internet infrastructure.

I honestly believe that net neutrality would be a non-issue if it didn't seem so monopolistic. I don't believe that if a very few telcos get a lock on a tiered wireless Internet, it will ever be improved to point where an data agnostic approach will make sense. Basically with out a wide range of competition, I don't trust Verizon to build a better Internet. Once they get a lock on a tiered service plan, it will take a huge consumer outcry (which probably won't happen) or an act of Congress to get anything that would make sense to the consumers.

So for me, I want to avoid the local monopolies that I have personally experienced in cable company service. I have lived in towns where there is only one cable service and it was expensive and had very poor customer service. If there had been 5 more companies all competing for my dollars, I would bet the prices would come down and the services would be better over all.

With wireless it is some what the same. If there were 10 telcos all trying to compete, I would trust that the free market forces would deliver a good service at a fair price. But just 3, may be 4 companies who basically seem to have carved the market up and seem to be content with their share of it, won't be innovating any time soon.

So for me, net neutrality would be a non-issue if there were a large number of competitors involved but it looks more like an oligarchy so I don't really trust it.
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You misunderstand
stano360 11th Aug 2010
@mr1972 There are a lot of players on the back end, not just the Baby Bells, there is no monopoly on the fiber. The issue of net neutrality is not on individual customers, it's small telcos.

Net neutrality removes the ability of a company to control the profits from its investment. If Net neutrality was shoved down Verizon's throat do you think they would have built FIOS? Of course not.
The point that's missing here is that wireless networks are different in another fundamental way: operators can never know how many people using what devices and applications will be hitting a certain part of the network at any given time. With wired networks you know where your users are and what their historical patterns are. With wireless networks thousands of people could suddenly show up somewhere there are usually only a handful. That has two implications:
1. you have to have flexibility to deal with situations as they occur, because you can't always plan ahead
2. you can't guarantee any kind of throughput to anyone anywhere, because a sudden influx of usage would degrade performance for everyone.
Physics places limits on the electro magnetic spectrum available to society, making it an extremely precious public owned resource. Those granted control over this scare public resource will need to respect their responsibility to meet the public good. It is the citizens who ultimately own and license this precious spectrum. If Verizon does not like the social limits placed on wireless carriers let them innovate by researching how to create their own new wireless broadcast spectrum. Right, I thought so ..................
@raycote

Just because something exists in the physical reality does not make it a publicly owned resource. That is a fallacious argument. The citizens have no control over this physical spectrum UNLESS a capability to interact with it is provided - what some might call a service, and unless I'm mistaken the average person does not have a global infrastructure that allows the rapid transmission of data from any point to any point connected to their individually operated magic network machine. Of course then they would need special communication boxes to connect to their magic network. That capability would be provided by the greedy capitalists who bothered to research, develop and build the devices that then connect to the provided service of an inter-operating-network those nasty ISPs bothered to research, develop and build. You could of course just not buy a phone (hah! take that capitalist inventor swine!) or you could buy one and just not connect it to an ISP (hah! take that greedy ISPs)... but then you would have an expensive piece of plastic that you have zero comprehension of what to do with - beyond a paper weight. If users do not like the legal limits placed on them as consumers by wireless carriers let them innovate by researching how to create their own wireless broadband network. Right, i thought so...........
@slenGypsum

If users do not like the legal limits placed on them as consumers by wireless carriers...

Since when do wireless carriers decide what's legal and what's not? That's society's role through representative government, is it not?

The problem is that our representative government is captured by wireless carriers among others. It's discouraging there are people who accept that corporations can make the laws to advantage themselves and disadvantage consumers.





happy
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Bingo!
none none 11th Aug 2010
Those granted control over this scare public resource will need to respect their responsibility to meet the public good.

The thing is that the wireless operators are public corporations that need to respond to the demands of Wall Street. They are conflicted between public good and shareholder good. It's a situation that requires the government to protect the public interest.

But these blogs from the corporate peanut gallery always always are premised on the unsupported notion that government can't do anything right, as in, "Just imagine how bad Washington could screw up..." right here in this one.

Always consider the source. In the case of these blogs the source is CBS.

Sure, people make mistakes, including people who work in public service. But to attempt to take regulators out of the equation, as the totality of ZDNet blogging on the Google/Verizon proposal clearly does, is to take the owners of the spectrum out of the equation and give it all over to the for-profit companies.

Corporations are not evil any more than a man-eating shark is evil. They just do what they do; they don't mean anything by it. But if 400 man-eating sharks took up residence in Chesapeake Bay we would expect someone to do something about it, and that someone would be "the government." What we would *not* do is dismiss a government solution because the government can't be trusted.

Why do ZDNet bloggers do it?





happy
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Huh?
stano360 11th Aug 2010
@none none Most of these blogs are a constant stream of fascist blather, not pro-corporation. That is the exception not the rule.

Being owned by CBS, the Joseph Goebbels of the Obama administration (well, ok, they fight it out with NBC and CNN), that doesn't help your argument.
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Verizon owes us nothing!
stano360 11th Aug 2010
@raycote and I owe Verizon nothing! I exchange my hard work for their hard work/risk/investment. They put millions into radio sites and provide an excellent product, legally. They rest of their obligation is to their investors.

If their product is not worth the investment of my hard work (money) I will not buy it.

Bandwidth, roads, air, police, etc. We all share them The monopoly is caused by the government limiting the players available. In my neighborhood, the "triple-play" cost has gone down, product and quality gone up, as soon as FIOS came into the neighborhood. Should the government expect them to leave the streets as they found them . . . of course. Should they let more providers in? Yes
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Premise is a lie
erikswanson 11th Aug 2010
"the debate went from zero to way overblown and emotional as soon as Google and Verizon posted a proposal on where they stand"

No, the statement was an attempt at damage control. People were already up in arms about it. The damage control failed spectacularly.

But by all means, if you think wireless networks are "different," please stop using a web browser on your iphone/smartphone. Pay up.
All of these "carriers" are pushing customers to gobble up data and then turn around and cry that they can't provide what they are selling to the customer unless the customer pays X$ MORE than they already have which doesn't change the fact that they cry they don't have the bandwidth to provide the services they are pushing on the customers.

All very circular reasoning here and they WON'T invest any of the X$ they get into building up the infrastructure anyway so the game will just go on and on unless they are regulated.

The entire pitch they gave is to give themselves gigantic loop-holes to gouge more people without any oversight. One of them is the implication of creating a "dark net" for people willing to pony up XXX$ while they cripple the "open" internet by slowing it to a crawl.

Bad run around here. I hope Congress and the FCC can see it for what it really is instead of what the way too interested commercial interests try to push over on us.
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How are they gouging?
stano360 11th Aug 2010
@Tholian_53 Their profit margins are less than Apple, so should the government start regulating them? They monopolize the app market, music players etc. Sick corporate scum!!! (note dripping sarcasm)

Your post is nonsense, why do you think people are going to flock to Verizon when they get the iPhone, because overall they have a better network. Do you think AT&T is sitting on their backsides stuffing money in their pockets? Of course not, they are building out their network as fast as they can afford, to please customers and stop them from leaving.

Every year we get better service, better phones, wider coverage and at lower prices and yet still people want to regulate it, weird.
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Loopholes to destroy internet
RedVeg 11th Aug 2010
When you read the agreement, all of those things that seem good have loopholes that make it easy to get around. Google is destroying their whole "do no evil" persona.
"Why would they do the companies put off wireless net neutrality?"

Did you proofread this before publishing it? I'm not even sure what you're trying to say here.....
Hi Larry! Great post. One small quibble.
At a recent New America Foundation presentation they made the point that it never limited spectrum that is the bandwidth problem. You put the cell sites closer together and increase throughput on the same spectrum a thousandfold. We've seen with LANs, networks, analog and digital wireless that when a service becomes popular it's almost impossible to anticipate (believe?) the demand curve for the network. Thank you,
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it's the same song and dance
nothingness 11th Aug 2010
So for those of you of the "conservative" persuasion who endlessly blame this present centrist/leaning to the right government for all the ills brought on by your beloved previous basically fascist administration. It is perfectly fine to waste money on invading other countries and legislate what people do and think lest they aren't of christian leanings in this country; but it is "communistic" and "socialistic" if money are spent for the common good. Thanks to your lemming like logic, our government is now run by huge corporations and the wealthy. What is really pathetic is that most of you aren't even close to being in the top 1% of this country's top earners to remotely benefit from the far right policies. You can kiss up to huge corporations and the wealthy all you want, at the end of the day, you'll be lucky if they even throw you a bone.
@nothingness

Fascism - is a form of socialism, where the government dictates to companies what they make and it is usually run by a dictator or what they like to believe are "the smartest guys in the room"

Communism - is similar, except that the government owns the "means of production"

Both see/saw themselves as the defenders of the little guys (and of course ironically did the opposite without meaning to).

As far as Obama being centrist/right . . . well take that silliness over to the Huffington Post or the Daily Kos.
@ none none

Its called ToS - you agreed to the legal implications of how they run their ISP when you signed the contract.

Or did you overlook the whole 'legal aspect of a binding agreement' part when it didn't suit your narrative vision?

note: Suuure, the ISP didn't define the law that uphold the contract, but they did adhere to them when contracting into a legally binding agreement to provide you service - as did you.
"Regulating wireless access at this point in time would be like the FCC mandating net neutrality back in the dial-up access days."

Once the horse is out of the barn, it will be difficult to put back. That'll be your argument a few years down the line.

"Wireless networks have spectrum issues."

So let them cap and charge for excessive data usage. Like they're already doing. All this does is let them choke off services that might compete with their private services.
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Wasting your breath
johnleeblackwell@... 11th Aug 2010
You're all just wasting energy on this ...... you are simply the monkeys in the jungle and it is Google et al's jungle - period.
Like your Obamas and Camerons ..... they'll make some nice TV out of pretense to consult you ...... then they'll screw you.
In ten years time USA access to the Net will be Orwellian, oh BTW NO WHERE in Europe is in the state that USA is in.
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Uhhh . . .
stano360 11th Aug 2010
@johnleeblackwell@... Spain, UK, Ireland, Portugal, Greece, France, Italy, is that enough for you. Yes Germany is hanging tough, but we'll see if that will last.

Obama will turn us into Portugal soon enough though.
I really like this article, but still think that one aspect of net neutrality should be enforced now or soon on wireless networks as well: I'm talking about ban on preferential treatment of packets *based on their owner". Yes, Verizon or AT@T have a full right and even responsibility to restrict some bandwidth hogging activities, it's up to them to choose. But it must be absolutely prohibited for any internet access provider to allow to broadcast CNN but prohibit Fox (this would both contradict to free speech rights and break Internet coherence), or to silently throttle one company's packets and increase a speed for another - provided that both companies paid for equal service.

Finally, I welcome everybody to participate in excellent net neutrality discussion on Google Buzz http://goo.gl/dY1b (that thread includes several frustrated Googlers too.)
There are two different issues involved in net neutrality, and the anti-neutrality people seem to confuse the two and answer only one of the questions.

The first is whether providers should be allowed to prioritize by the TYPE of data, where competition is not affected. OF COURSE! Streaming audio and video NOT intended to be archived requires a higher priority of first delivery attempt, with no need to "backfill" missed data, since it will be useless anyway, while normal file-transfer activity such as web page or email delivery can tolerate delays, but every bit must eventually be accounted for. We who support net neutrality have no problem with that aspect of packed routing.

Neither do we have a problem with the "last-mile" or, for wireless, "last-link" speed being limited, as long as such limiting is not for the express purpose of stifling competing business (such as locking out VOIP in order to force wireless users to buy both a data plan and a cell phone voice plan). If you pay for 30mb transfer you should be able to get it to/from those web sites that can support it.

The problem is blocking or prioritizing according to the IDENTITY of the sender or receiver of the data, which I call the "undertaker's wife" issue, after the unpleasant and unfair experience which led Anton V. Strowger to invent the dial exchange over a century ago. We would not consider it acceptable (in fact it would be illegal) if, when dialing your local "Joe's Pizza" on your landline, the telephone company intercepted the call and routed it to the big pizza chain which purchased a special deal; or put in a recording saying "we can connect you to the number you dialed after a 20 minute hold time; would you like to call brand X immediately instead?" The internet equivalent might include letting providers block web sites for competitors (you have DSL and want to look at getting cable? you cannot reach the cable provider's web site on you DSL connection!), or those belonging to politically undesirable entities (moveon.org is blocked because your provider has sympathies with Fox, or vice versa), or emails are blocked to or from entities that the provider's management does not like (cannot send your opinions to the White House if your previous opinions have been of the "wrong" partisan flavor).

We are only asking the FCC to enforce the second group of neutrality provisions, not the first. In other words, if you go into business as a TRANSPORTER of data, even if you are also in business as a CREATOR of data, you must not give your own data precedence over data provided by competing creators, and you must not discriminate for or against certain opinions or content.

Enforcing the principles in the previous paragraph will not stifle innovation, it will protect it, while preserving our personal freedoms from being stifled by whoever wins the first round of financial competition. And of course, these principles would be enforced against government itself as well, so that dissenting opinions, religious beliefs, or candidates are not prevented from operating on the net.
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RE: Google, Verizon are right to push out the wireless net neutrality talk
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RE: Google, Verizon are right to push out the wireless net neutrality talk
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