Google's Page goes on defensive against Oracle lawyers at trial

Google's Page goes on defensive against Oracle lawyers at trial

Summary: Larry Page's strongest argument in the Oracle v. Google case seems to be that he just didn't know anything about Java licenses when Android was being developed.

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SAN FRANCISCO -- Google CEO Larry Page returned to court on Wednesday morning to retake the stand as a witness in the legal battle between Google and Oracle over patents and copyrights related to Java.

Google CEO Larry Page leaving the courtroom. Credit: CNET

Yet, as demonstrated during Page's initial testimony on the stand on Tuesday afternoon as well as during the video of his deposition from last August, Page continuously denied much -- if any -- knowledge regarding discussions about Java licenses and Google engineers copying Java API codes.

See also: Google's Page claims little knowledge about Android, Java license talks

Oracle attorney David Boies picked up right where he left off before Judge William Alsup decided to adjourn trial proceedings at the U.S. District Court for the day on Tuesday.

Boies started off by asking Page, "Would it have been a violation of Google policy for Google engineers to copy copyrighted materials of other companies?"

Page replied, "Again, as I said yesterday, I think we did nothing wrong," explaining that his company is "very careful" about what information that they did and did not use.

This kind of back-and-forth pattern between Boies and Page continued over the course of nearly an hour, with only a brief respite when Page was cross-examined by Google's lawyers.

Additionally, the tension between the two only seemed to escalate as Boies couldn't get a straight, yes-or-no answer from Page most of the time.

Take this interaction early in questioning as one example:

Boies: This is a yes or no question. Mr. Page, do you, from your own personal knowledge and experience in the industry, know that Sun wanted to avoid fragmentation of the Java platform? Page: I think they wanted to patrol the Java platform. Judge Alsup: You can answer that question "yes" or "no," please. You can say "yes" or "no," and give an explanation, or say "I don't know." Page: I'm sorry. Repeat the exact question. Boies: I'll try, your honor. Do you know, sir, from your own personal knowledge and experience in the industry that Sun wanted to avoid fragmentation of the Java platform? Page: Now or previously? Boies: Let me break it up. Did you know, in 2005, from your own personal knowledge and experience in the industry that Sun wanted to avoid fragmentation of the Java platform? Page: Um, yes, subject to patrol and other things I mentioned.

A further point of tension between Page and Oracle's legal team is whether or not Page has a working relationship with Tim Lindholm, whom Oracle has singled out as an important adviser at Google in regards to implementing Java on Android.

Both on Tuesday and Wednesday, Page maintained that he was not familiar with Lindholm, but simply knew of him. Oracle seems to think differently.

Boies pointed towards an email dated July 25, 2005 about negotiations with Sun related to Java. That email detailed different responsibilities and opinions that Google leaders had at the time in regards to those negotiations. Here are two lines of contention that Boies highlighted:

deep & rubin: action to follow up with sun negotiations regarding open sourcing java

And:

tim: doesn't feel that sun is a problem regarding the shared issues

Boies asked Page if that "tim" referred to Tim Lindholm. Page replied simply, "I'm not sure which Tim it would be."

To further drum home his point that Page does know Lindholm better, Boies offered another email from Lindholm to Andy Rubin, this one dated on August 6, 2010, as evidence. Here's the excerpt that Boies highlighted:

What we've been asked to do (by Larry and Sergei [sic]) is to investigate what technical alternatives exist to Java for Android and Chrome. We've been over a bunch of these, and think they all suck. We conclude that we need to negotiate a license for Java under the terms we need.

Noting that "Sergei" is spelled wrong to some quiet laughter from the court, Page evaded Boies's questioning again when asked about this and his awareness of Java licenses.

Boies asked Page if he was told that Google needed to negotiate licenses with Java. Page replied that he couldn't recall about that time -- except that he knew "we worked hard to negotiate a partnership with Sun."

Again, Judge Alsup interceded by addressing Page, "Most of the questions are yes or no, and you should try to answer in that spirit. So let's do that. Is it true that you never got a license?"

Page replied, "I'm not sure whether or not we got a license to anything."

Boies asked if Google ever obtained a license from Sun or Oracle for Java. Page said no.

Boies continued asking if Google uses certain Sun or Oracle APIs in Android, and if Page was aware that Sun includes those APIs in its copyrights. Page admitted that he is aware that Google uses Java APIs on Android, but that he has no idea what Sun copyrighted or not.

Finally, Boies asked if Page ever asked anyone about the copyrights, and Page said he couldn't remember.

On Tuesday, Oracle CEO Larry Ellison asserted while under oath that Google was the only company he knew of that was using Java APIs without licenses from either Sun or Oracle. Boies followed up on this and asked Page if he was aware of any other company besides Google that uses Java APIs without a licence.

Page responded that he's not "an expert" on the subject, but he singled out IBM as one example, saying that he knew "IBM has had a long and tortuous relationship with Sun over Java."

Boies was taken aback slightly here, asking Page if it was his testimony that IBM does not have a license from Sun or Oracle. Page admitted he didn't know exactly, pointing out that Apache Harmony has some relationship with IBM.

"I don't know what their license is, but it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't," Page added.

This might not be the last we see of Larry Page on the stand. Unlike Ellison, who was sent home after testifying on Tuesday morning and was said not to be required to return unless subpoenaed, Page was placed on recall by Oracle's lawyers.

That's because Page was unable to identify a piece of evidence presented by Boies, which presented a debate between both legal teams. After a short but heated discussion, Judge Alsup declared that Oracle lawyers could not press Page any further on this until another witness could correctly identify said document.

Related:

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15 comments
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  • Boies acted as a thug

    with no respect for Mr. Page and press him with gotcha questions and minor facts that are hard to remember and irrelevant to the case. The judge must sanction this thuggish behavior by removing Boies from the room.
    The Linux Geek
    • That's funny.

      What do you think this is - tea time? Oracle pretty much has a smoking gun here, and Google apparently decided long ago they'd take their chances in court. Page is in the uncomfortable position of denying there's a gun, or at least a smoking one, and even if it IS a smoking gun, it's not HIS smoking gun, and even if it IS, he really doesn't know anything about it.

      Google's birds have come home to roost on this one, and Boies is making Page look like a fool the same way he took apart Gates and Microsoft in that trial.
      pdq
      • There is no smoking gun anywhere, just FUD and innuendo

        And how can you compare a crook like Gate$ who extorted billions from the people with a great altruist and innovator like Mr. Page?
        The Linux Geek
      • Smokin!

        "What weve been asked to do (by Larry and Sergei [sic]) is to investigate what technical alternatives exist to Java for Android and Chrome. Weve been over a bunch of these, and think they all suck. ***We conclude that we need to negotiate a license for Java under the terms we need.***"
        pdq
    • Oracle - Leave Google alone! :)

      Mutilating Chris Crocker's "Leave Britney Spears Alone" rant for some humor-

      How @$#! dare anyone out there make fun of Google after all they have been through!

      Google lost it's Sun, they went through a divorce. They had two @$#! JVMs.

      Oracle turned out to be a user, a cheater, and now they're going through a custody battle. All you people care about is???.. readers and making money off of them.

      Google is made up of PEOPLE! What you don???t realize is that Google is making you all this money and all you do is write a bunch of crud about them.

      They haven't performed on stage in since the last I/O. Someone's song is called ???give me more??? for a reason because all you people want is MORE! MORE-MORE, MORE: MORE!.

      LEAVE GOOGLE ALONE! You are lucky their software even performed for you $@#!
      LEAVE GOOGLE ALONE!???..Please.

      <snip, some whining removed to protect sanity>

      LEAVE GOOGLE ALONE!


      (Okay, now back to reality, and work. Nothing to see here, move along.)
      sys_engineer
    • BTW-

      "Did your company license Java from Oracle?" should not be a difficult, "minor", or "irrelevant" question for a company's CEO.

      Page: ???I???m not sure whether or not we got a license to anything.???

      = deer in headlights.
      pdq
      • when Sun made Java free

        it implies that EVERYBODY got a license. Including Google!
        The Linux Geek
      • Clueless CEO, Much?

        My god, the CEO didn't know if they got a license or not? Is he for real? Its like Ford CEO saying I don't know if we put wheels or not on the cars we sell. Who do you think sign up for things? The clerk at the mailroom?
        madfry
      • Obvious Page is not taking this seriously

        or Google's lawyers are incompetent. Didn't they expect to get asked this question? They should have had an answer ready.
        otaddy
  • From reading that exchange

    Page looks like hes lying or hiding something. Whether he is or not I have no idea. But if I were on that jury and I heard that exchange, I would definitely think Page and Google as a whole stole something or were hiding something. Boies is definitely earning his money.
    TheWhat
    • Boies is very unprofessional

      and if I were the judge I would throw him out of the court room.
      The Linux Geek
  • WOW!

    Liar, Liar pants on fire. Pages sure appears to be lying and is very evasive. I wish I was on that jury. I sure hope oracle wins this one and gets an injuction against the great thief GOOG, inc.
    oraman
    • you got your thieves confused

      Oracle is racketeering Google and other companies!
      The Linux Geek
  • I feel that Oracle is being a little silly.

    I feel that Oracle is being a little silly. If they win and take all this money and get licensing fees and also get a portion of profits from handset sales...I feel they are stifling innovation over, what to a huge company like this, is a relatively silly amount of money. [url=http://www.meshbesher.com/]car accidents minnesota[/url]
    aedanadrien
  • Only time will tell

    Good stuff. Only time will tell who is right on this issue.
    Donne russe
    aflemo