Between the Lines

Larry Dignan, Andrew Nusca and Rachel King

In a world of proprietary boats, thanks but I'll take the life raft

By | September 1, 2005, 5:27pm PDT

Summary: In response to my recent blog on how Microsoft Office program manager Brian Jones drew fire for comments in his blog, a ZDNet reader offered his (or maybe her) interpretation of what I said with a comment entitled David, you really, REALLY, are missing the boat here.  In that comment, the reader says: No David, what [...]

In response to my recent blog on how Microsoft Office program manager Brian Jones drew fire for comments in his blog, a ZDNet reader offered his (or maybe her) interpretation of what I said with a comment entitled David, you really, REALLY, are missing the boat here.  In that comment, the reader says:

No David, what you are really saying is that Microsoft should throw away years of research, investment and development, become another "me too" generic provider and not raise the bar in features or functions.

I never said Microsoft should "throw away years of research."   If the reader is suggesting that by supporting OpenDoc, end-users would actually end up using it and essentially throwing away all that Microsoft has created over the years, that’s a different question. Then it’s not me suggesting it. That’s users doing what they think is best for themselves (and I’m not necessarily predicting that this is what will or will not happen).  But never once, in my story or anywhere, did I suggest that Microsoft disable support for its own formats or throw away its research. For those who want to take advantage of it, Microsoft should absolutely leave that proprietary functionality in its products when that functionality cannot be supported by the open standards.

Also, I don’t think I’m missing any boats.  I don’t think the people who govern Massachusetts are missing the boat either.  On other technological fronts, many of such "organizations" have already sacrificed some functionality so that they may experience the benefits of open standards and now realize that that they’ve managed quite nicely while enjoying the leverage they now have over their technology providers. If their existing open standards-based solutions become too expensive, too vulnerable, too unstable, or whatever, they have the freedom to switch and all their suppliers can do is acquiesce.  Or, those suppliers can lower their prices to stay in the game, redouble their efforts on security and bugs and cajole their customers into sticking with them, but they are not in control of the relationship, those organizations’ IT, or their budgets.  The customers are.  Massachusetts is.  Or will be.

But hey, if you want the cost, security, stability and whatever else of your IT to be out of your hands and in the hands of your suppliers, well, you’re welcome to stay on that boat.  I like knowing I have the option of that proprietary functionality.  But I’ll also take the life raft in the form of solid support of open standards, thank you very much.

I often wonder if vendors are that insecure about their implementations of open standards that they must lock us into questionable — often failed — implementations of proprietary functionality.  This isn’t an issue that’s specific to one vendor.  Everywhere you look — take blade servers for example — this insecurity appears to exist.  Personally, I think that in almost every open standard there exists plenty of opportunity to offer a killer implementation.   There’s plenty of room to compete and plenty of customers to go around (and having the freedom to go around is not missing the boat).

Oh, and by the way, to Brian Jones, we’re still waiting for your answers here on ZDNet.  We’d love to have you come join the discussion. 

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Disclosure

David

http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?page_id=2993

Biography

David

David Berlind, formerly the executive editor of ZDNet, holds a BBA in Computer Information Systems. Prior to becoming a tech journalist in 1991, David was an IT manager that was responsible for the design and deployment of custom developed software, local and wide area networks, PC-Mainframe connectivity, corporate technology standard-setting and end-user training programs. Since then, David has served as the Director of PC Week Labs (now eWeek), editor-in-chief at Windows Sources, editorial director at Computer Shopper and general manager at Ziff-Davis.

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OOo 2.0 Mass Conversion Utility
garyedwards@... 7th Sep 2005
Whoops! My mistake. After i made the post explaining that StarOffice has long had the ability to perfect mass conversions of documents, including the entire legacy of MS .docs, some kind soul at OpenOffice.org notified me that the current ?final? release candidate for OOo v2.0 also includes this same conversion capability. Massachusetts is just a download away from unrestricted use of a mass conversion utility that will put the entire MS document store into OpenDocument with a point and click. This includes spreadsheets and PowerPoint presentations.

I wonder though. What about all those government forms? Can they be converted?

One of the most extraordinary features of OpenDocument is the XForms capabilities. Although Massachusetts didn't mention XForms, this was a most important requirement for the EU. In fact, in August of 2004 the EU requested that the ODF technical committee complete the XForms ? SVG ? SMiL inclusions by September of 2004, in time for their grand requirements announcement. Somehow we got this done. (Somehow? Oh wait, i do know how it was done ? XML engineer extraordinaire Daniel Volgelheim worked night and day to get it done. By October of 2004 he also had a complete XForms interface built into OOo. An interface that turns out to be every bit as good, and perhaps better than the $350 MS InfoPath application!)

My apologies to the OOo v2.0 developers. The conversion utility is awesome.

~ge~
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i think you said it pretty clearly
Monkey_MCSE 1st Sep 2005
and i agree with what you said David. I wouldn't expect n-Ax to respond to it though, it was well worded and brought up valid points. As from what i've seen from our beloved axe, he boasts about his implementations and thinks his company is a model for everyone, he never looks at the broad spectrum, only what he has found tried and true, and don't get me wrong, thats fine, if it works, use it, but he has this facade that everyone should share his opinion or he taunts them into making remarks unbecoming of etiquette on the talkbacks. When offered a valid opinion or shown proof he likes to boast his "LAMP is the most hacked in the world" but has yet to offer any link to support his opinion(yes i saw one article with 4 people asking for his findings of research towards said comment, he seemed to not answer for some reason). From what i read from his comments, he is very MS-centric, and when something comes along without all the bells and whistles, yet is more secure and prone to a standards base, he seems very against it(other than firefox). I don't know, I think it has to do with fear, that someone will come along, and offer a way around his IP(he's said he's got IP to his firm that MS buys, but who knows if he's telling the truth, he also said he had a private jet), and i can understand that, but I have to say, too bad so sad, someone innovated over ya, and they are offering it away for free, guess you should have been looking to innovate yourself to make said product more worth wild. I resepect his opinion, but he bases alot of his beliefs on them as facts, and offers very little to back up his opinion as facts. Maybe we'll see a change of heart one day and one day he'll find he's not always right(i know, pigs will learn to fly and lay eggs before that may ever happen). He may stop trying to change or read too deeply into what people say to base his opinion one day as well, one never knows.

Basically, don't take what he says to heart, normally from what i and others have seen(and commented on), his opinion is the only thing that matters, and no one will ever sway that.
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Whoa up a bit.
No_Ax_to_Grind 2nd Sep 2005
No, I do not have a jet, I have a 15 year old Bonaza. (I wish I could afford a jet. )

Concerning MS vs. Open Source I have and continue to repeat, "Use what best meets your needs." I simply do not know how to make that any plainer.

Now if you are saying that I believe MS products meet the needs of the vast majority better than open source products, you are right, I do. But that isn't just a personal belief of mine, it's the belief of 90% of all users, it is the minority that isn't listening.

In discussion about MS products where I point out where MS has the better product, the responce is that "no one really wants, needs, uses them". Nothing could be further from the truth. It's a shame though the zealots can't listen because if they could they might grasp what it will take to effectively compete against MS.

Hmmm, LAMP. Ok, I'll make it simple. The vast majority of web hosting is done with LAMP (*nix runs the net right?) So if sites are being hacked and defaced, it is being done to LAMP (*nix). Sorry, you can't have it both ways.

I say this without reservation. When I see an OS with the broad support in both hardware and software selection, when it is as easy to use, when it can provide compatibility, and is proven to be a BETTER OS, I'll install it on every machine I can. Until then, Microsoft is the clearly better choice. (The same for their Offie suite.)

One last thing, taunting? No, the zealots need no taunting. Visit any forum and you'll see them trashing MS users everyday.
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Unreasonable request??
CobraA1 3rd Sep 2005

Hmmm, LAMP. Ok, I'll make it simple. The vast majority of web hosting is done with LAMP (*nix runs the net right?) So if sites are being hacked and defaced, it is being done to LAMP (*nix). Sorry, you can't have it both ways.



I don't think they're saying there's zero security issues, just a lot less.

For crying out loud, what is so unreasonable about the request for statistics to back up the claim?

Concerning MS vs. Open Source I have and continue to repeat, "Use what best meets your needs." I simply do not know how to make that any plainer.



Completely agree. Guess what? The vast majority of web hosting is using LAMP. It must meet their needs wink.
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Once more...
No_Ax_to_Grind 4th Sep 2005
If in FACT *nix runs the net, and in fact servers get hacked/defaced, then...
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Are you really that stupid?
Immanuel Tranz-Mischen 4th Sep 2005
"If in FACT *nix runs the net, and in fact servers get hacked/
defaced, then..."

Then WHAT???

Did anyone say there are NO Microsoft servers on the net? No.
They are simply the minority. How does it follow from that that
only "*nix" servers get hacked? The two statistics have nothing
to do with each other.

Blacks are also a minority, yet when it comes to victims of gang
violence, they are in the majority. It just doesn't follow that
being in the majority in one population means you're going to
be in the majority in another population.

I'm curious. Are you really enough of an idiot to believe what
you're saying, or are you deliberately (and transparently) trying
to mislead people? And, if so, what's your motivation?
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Non Sequitur
Immanuel Tranz-Mischen 4th Sep 2005
"Hmmm, LAMP. Ok, I'll make it simple. The vast majority of web
hosting is done with LAMP (*nix runs the net right?) So if sites
are being hacked and defaced, it is being done to LAMP (*nix).
Sorry, you can't have it both ways."

This is a gross non sequitur, even for you. My God. I can't
believe you even believe what you just said.

The evidence shows that while Microsoft servers are in the
minority (~20%) on the Web, they still account for the majority
(~60%) of sites that are defaced or otherwise compromised. So,
yes, we can have it both ways.
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No_Ax is saying that IRM is the missing feature. Well...

To begin with IRM is MS's Office's DRM scheme for MS Office files and Email. It requires that you run a rights server on MS Server 2003, that you have Cals to the rights server (At $30 per CAL), and that you run an outside connection server at the cost of 18,000 and some change.

He misses the boat becuase OASIS developed DPRL, XmRL, and the latest XACML which all do about the samething as MS IRM but have been around for a longer amount of time and don't require all the CALs and servers that MS IRM does.

Not that I approve of DRM, especially in office files- Really I can't see any use in them as most contracts still need to be physically signed (In blue ink in most cases no less) and anything sent out, like an email, could be read aloud over the phone or transcribed. Not to mention if any court ordered documents the keys to IRM would be turned over lickety-split, that asumes there isn't a govt built in back door already. So realy is IRM worth the costs? I would tend to say No!! Especially since mature solutions already exist at a fraction of the price and it can't eliminate the biggest problem... The problem of not trusting who you send documents to.

He further misses the boat as Gnome Office (Abiword and Gnumeric), OO.org, Koffice, and others already either support this standard or are working to implement the standard. These office suites are free of charge and the first two are crossplatform (Mac, Linux, Windows, Ect) with a KDE Windows port in Beta with Kexi (Koofice's database offering) already ported to Windows-KOffice will be crossplatform in time too.

MS will need to support this format or introduce bussiness, and possibly, loose business with contractors/citizens/users that need to communicate with the state of MA. Also I don't see why one should think that MA is the only state that will implement this policy.
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A couple of thoughts.
No_Ax_to_Grind 2nd Sep 2005
Cost: The cost you quote is off, but it doesn't matter. Anyone can set up an account with MS or third party servers for a minimal charge. (Inside tip: Office 12 is going to change even that charge, you will like it.)

---"OASIS developed DPRL, XmRL, and the latest XACML which all do about the samething as MS IRM"---

Sorry you are simply wrong here. Seriously, compare what and how things can be controled in MS Offcie (more to come in 12) and tell me you think they can be compared.

Your point that open source orgs are using an open standard is, umm, sort of a "well duh" isn't it? Why would they use anything else?
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I've seen what IRM can do
Ed_Meyers 2nd Sep 2005
And frankly am not impressed. The pricing came straight from Microsoft;
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver2003/techinfo/overview/rmsoverview.mspx

RMS Pricing
Windows RMS Client Access License
$37 each

Windows RMS Client Access License Five Pack
$185

Windows RMS External Connector License
$18,066


- XmRL is what MPEG-21 DRM is based on which is ahat MS Media Players DRM is based on... Wel Okay if you insit it won't work...

You really dhould read the 700+ page specification. Sun, Corel, Boing, IBM, and even MS themselves (Until they pulled out) contributed to this.

Not only that but no type of DRM will fix the issue of not trusting the person who you are sending docs to.

Likewise DRM is not desirable in documents that are being shared between govt and citizens.
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Re-read my post.
No_Ax_to_Grind 3rd Sep 2005
If after that you are still having problems I'll show you how to set up a hosted account.
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Has anyone devised the software yet...
Anton Philidor 1st Sep 2005
... that will convert to this "standard" software? Even in Massachusetts alone, someone can probably make a fair amount of money getting documents into and out of the Massachusetts requirement.

As mentioned in another discussion, people work with the software they know and understand best if at all possible.

In fact, Massachusetts would probably be among the translator software company's biggest clients, if the software people have will not read the Massachusetts format. Then the State would have to give people the software to read the documents they've published.

My own view on what Massachusetts should do? Glad you asked.
The State should work with whatever format is on most or all versions of Windows and the largest number of other operating systems. May restrict the documents a bit, but the State would probably have an easier time than in the current situation.
They should certainly not assume everyone has Office.

But then, I get no particular satisfaction out of avoiding use of Microsoft products.
It is possible to make MS Office export to this format. This is not for the technically unskilled though and it certianly is not "Offically Supported" by MS. I believe you would call it a "Hack" of MS Office.

Although if some people don't like software to change, not that I don't agree with you, then why has Microsoft changed the look and feel of Office, in paticular Outlook, in MS 2003 let alone they changed it from 2000 to XP (All for the worse.) IMO MS Office's UI has been junk since Office 97- Actually I would love to have the WP & Spreedsheet from my old Brother Desktop Publishing System -it was very effecient... Brother should either market it for $5-$15 or Open The Source.
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... that will convert to this "standard" software?

First of all, it's not standard software. It's a standard data file format. And, yes, OO will read in a .doc file and save it in the standard XML data file format.


In fact, Massachusetts would probably be among the translator software company's biggest clients, if the software people have will not read the Massachusetts format.

To comment on the fact that software people have won't read a standard data file format: that's the problem, isn't it? Your argument can be reduced to Microsoft has the market share and no one should do anything to upset it. You tend to argue that people who choose non-MS solutions always are doing it on a philosophical basis.

I suppose you could say that the desire on the part of the people who govern MA that file formats should be durable, or at least documented for future reference when decades-old files need to be recovered, is a philosophical desire.

Some would say they're being practical because durability of documents is an eminently practical concern of a state government, but I'm addressing your points, so let's stipulate that only philosophy is at play here.

You know, when you see ads on TV for many products you can tell the advertisers are not appealing to logic or necessity. Philosophy and vanity, among other drivers of purchase decisions, are fair drivers for the advertisers to direct their appeals.

Purchase decisions based on one's philosophy on a matter like the environment or labor conditions in the producing factory, for example, - or mode of software production - are thus legitimized.

My own belief is that concerns about document durabilty are practical concerns. In this case, Microsoft's business imperative to resist open file formats puts it at odds with this customer's perceived need for them. It's not a philosophical dispute at all.


The State should work with whatever format is on most or all versions of Windows and the largest number of other operating systems.

No, the state should work with whatever format fills its needs and the needs of its citizens. MA believes that documented formats fit the bill. If the format on "most or all versions of Windows" is undocumented, why are you even suggesting it? Or do you mean flat ASCII?



happy
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Likely to last.
Anton Philidor 2nd Sep 2005
Twenty years from now, say, which is more likely to be in existence and concerned about backward compatibility after all the changes made during that time, Microsoft or the setters of this unused "standard"?

You wrote:
I suppose you could say that the desire on the part of the people who govern MA that file formats should be durable, or at least documented for future reference when decades-old files need to be recovered, is a philosophical desire.

Very practical. And looking at the past 20 years, you'd have to choose Microsoft products on that basis. Too many other companies have gone out of business.
Best to choose on the basis of the solidity of the source organization.
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Re: Likely to last.
none none 2nd Sep 2005
Twenty years from now, say, which is more likely to be in existence and concerned about backward compatibility after all the changes made during that time, Microsoft or the setters of this unused "standard"?

[...]

And looking at the past 20 years, you'd have to choose Microsoft products on that basis. Too many other companies have gone out of business.
Best to choose on the basis of the solidity of the source organization.
Best to choose on the basis of the solidity of the source organization.



I'm afraid you're missing the point so I'll repeat it again. A standard is not (necessarily) an implementation. It's not a product. It doesn't belong to a company that might wither. Most importantly, it's not a secret!

MS Office file formats are undocumented secrets. They fail as standards. The point isn't whether MS will be around in 20 years. It's whether MS will will support a 20 year old file format and especially, whether MA should rely on it to do.

Evidently they think that's not a smart bet. The open document standard will change in 20 years, but today's spec will endure as a historical document, and it never will be secret.


happy
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You're betting that a product implementing...
Anton Philidor 2nd Sep 2005
... the "standard" will be available. Or that an organization will be pleased to invest in obtaining backward compatibility.

If an organization has to write code to read antique documents, that organization would feel at a disadvantge compared with one that already had software able to read the antiques.

In other words, if one organization had Microsoft documents and the other did not. (;-))
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What goes around ...
whisperycat 2nd Sep 2005
Anton

Sure you right calm, syntactically correct, measured posts free of ad hominem or irrational outburst. And they all read as if they were written by a Microsoft salesman. Your fundamental objection appears to be that Microsoft have been cut out of the loop? But you can't have it all ways, Anton. Microsoft can't keep partnering other companies only for as long as it takes to steal their IP and market it as their own, and expect to be trusted. Microsoft can't keep pumping millions of $$$ into entities commited to undermining or destroying Open Source and Linux (like SCO), and then expect to be entrusted with public data. In short, Microsoft are starting - just starting - to reap what they have spent the last decade sowing.


Some quotes from

http://www.mass.gov/eoaf/open_formats_comments.html

"Open Formats are specifications for data file formats based on an underlying open standard, developed by an open community, and affirmed by a standards body; or de facto format standards controlled by other entities that are fully documented and available for public use under perpetual, royalty-free, and nondiscriminatory terms. An example is TXT text and PDF document files.

Why do we care about formats? Electronic file formats sit at the core of concern about future access to today's public records. Simply put, the question is whether, when we look back a hundred years from now, we will be able to read the records of what we did today.

It should be reasonably obvious for a lay person who reflects on the concept of public records that the government must keep them independent and free forever. It is an overriding imperative of the American democratic system that we cannot have our public documents locked up in some kind of proprietary format, perhaps unreadable in the future, or subject to a proprietary system license that restricts access.

We have been in a conversation with Microsoft for several months with regard to the patent that they have on, and the license surrounding their use of, XML to define the schema of DOC files in Microsoft Office 2003.

They have made representations to us recently they are planning to modify that license, and we believe, if they do so in the way that we understand that they have spoken about (we will leave it obviously to them to describe exactly what they are going to do), it is our expectation that the next iteration of the Open Format standard will include some Microsoft proprietary formats. These formats, like DOC files, will be deemed to be Open Formats because they will no longer have restrictions on their use.

That would potentially include (again, we need to wait for the final designation of this by Microsoft) Word Processing ML, which is the wrapper around DOC files, Spreadsheet ML, which is the wrapper around XLS files, and the form template schemas.

We plan to talk with other entities that may have restrictions around the use of other proprietary formats to get them removed as well".
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Thank you...
Anton Philidor 2nd Sep 2005
... for the positive comments.

My comments in these posts are intended to work at the level of principle, not specifics. When you make a statement like:

Microsoft can't keep pumping millions of $$$ into entities commited to undermining or destroying Open Source and Linux (like SCO), and then expect to be entrusted with public data.

you're making revenge into the basis for action.

And a weak basis.
Open source is a competitor. Would you forbid Microsoft from competing?
Microsoft paid SCO for an Unix license. Their motive and timing may be as you suggest, but would you forbid them from buying licenses?
You're saying that opposition to open source should be a reason for denying Microsoft the chance to be a vendor to States maintaining public documents. Is that designed to protect anyone, or to further open source?

I insist that if I were posting to Boards blithely in favor of Microsoft, I would object whenever any of the principles I'm defending were violated. These Boards happen to be anti-Microsoft, so I end up in the position of having to defend them.

Some of the posts that seem oddest are the ones opposing government intervention antagonistic to Microsoft. Means I have to defend Microsoft as the exemplar of freedom again oppression, for the ability of people and organizations to do as they will.
Try that one sometime.

Anyway, you're very good at invective yourself, and trolling and righteous wrath can be fun. I have assumed that behind rhetoric we've agreed on principles. Still do.
And I enjoy our exchanges.
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Revenge
Yagotta B. Kidding 2nd Sep 2005
When you make a statement like:

Microsoft can't keep pumping millions of $$$ into entities commited to undermining or destroying Open Source and Linux (like SCO), and then expect to be entrusted with public data.

you're making revenge into the basis for action.


No, it's a matter of "fool me once." If you prefer, it's a matter of playing the best known strategy in Prisoners' Dilemma: "optimistic *** for tat."

Microsoft has demonstrated, repeatedly and with feeling over the course of many years, that they approach every relationship with the prospect of treachery in mind. Put another way, they are a narcisistic organization with sociopathic tendencies. In old-fashioned terms they have no sense of honor.

That's not a judgment, it's an observation. Any organization that trusts Microsoft is ignoring the record and, IMHO, misfeasant for lack of due diligence.
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Re: Revenge
none none 2nd Sep 2005
In old-fashioned terms they have no sense of honor.

That's not going to get much traction in the apologist camp.

There was a discussion here once about how MS licensed the original IE tech from Spyglass on the terms that Spyglass would get a payment for every copy of IE sold. As we know MS didn't "sell" IE, it gave away IE for free and stiffed Spyglass.

The apologists' take? Spyglass should have had better lawyers.


happy
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I receive emails from someone...
Anton Philidor 2nd Sep 2005
... who uses AOL on 3.1, or says he does. Appropriately, the subject is dinosaurs.

On partnering with Microsoft, the appropriate slogan is the same as when making use of GPL'ed software: when you sup with the devil, use a long spoon. One you don't mind losing.
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Goose, Gander, gravy
Yagotta B. Kidding 2nd Sep 2005
You're betting that a product implementing the "standard" will be available.

That argument applies both ways: if Microsoft is the "standard," then will they still support backward compatibility?

On that score, the record of publicly-documented file formats is much better than secret formats, not least because proprietary software companies have a solid business incentive to churn formats.

Microsoft's backwards compatibilty with their own formats from as little as five years ago is spotty, their compatibilty with their own formats from ten years ago is ragged, and their compatibility with their own formats from 15 years ago nonexistent.

Entrusting them with archival support for documents over a span of 30 years is flatly ludicrous.

Or that an organization will be pleased to invest in obtaining backward compatibility.

They may or may not be pleased -- however, it will be possible, which is manifestly more than can be said for files in a secret format that even inside Microsoft is not fully documented or supported by validation suites.
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Erm...
zkiwi 2nd Sep 2005
I'm not sure if you've noticed, but the different versions of Microsoft Office have never been that great about "reliably" reading and working with the other versions of Microsoft Office. They keep changing the file formats. It's a pain, as not everyone in this world can keep, has kept, or will keep Office "up to date".

That aside, it would seem that MA isn't all that interested in rapid or changing file formats, hence their decision. Which I'm sure is not a bad decision, as for public documents I hardly think that they need to use more than around 10% (if that) of the features available in Microsoft Office, or for that matter OpenOffice etc.
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Responses
whisperycat 2nd Sep 2005
Anton wrote :
When you make a statement like:

"Microsoft can't keep pumping millions of $$$ into entities commited to undermining or destroying Open Source and Linux (like SCO), and then expect to be entrusted with public data".

you're making revenge into the basis for action.

-- That's one interpretation. However another (and my intention) is that of making an accurate observation, based on empirical evidence and a simple extrapolation of the notion of "cause and effect".

Anton wrote : Open source is a competitor. Would you forbid Microsoft from competing?
-- Would Microsoft forbid Open Source from competing? I rather think they are trying to effect exactly that, through patents and the funding of entities like SCO, who have a similar agenda.

Anton : Microsoft paid SCO for an Unix license. Their motive and timing may be as you suggest, but would you forbid them from buying licenses?
-- Would Microsoft try to make Unix licenses mandatory? Of course they would. In fighting Open Source they have no tangible 'enemy' to attack, they paid millions for a license they would never need because it assisted SCO in their attempts to destroy Open Source and Linux.

Anton : You're saying that opposition to open source should be a reason for denying Microsoft the chance to be a vendor to States maintaining public documents. Is that designed to protect anyone, or to further open source?
-- I am saying that Microsoft do not act in the best interests of anyone but themselves. With $55 billion in the bank they can actually afford to break the law and then hold their victims at bay via the US court system, a process which can drag on for yours, a process which demoralises their victims still further, bleeds them of cash and makes sure that Microsoft have the freedom to "innovate" their stolen IP into Windows with virtually no interference. Once Microsoft have rolled out their stolen IP they will settle out of court and Windows revenue is forever more bolstered by the fruit of their illegal activity. Governments have a duty to the people they are elected to serve, not predatory monopolies with a war chest so huge that they are beyond the law. It's not a question of punishing them, its one of common sense and fair play.

Anton : Some of the posts that seem oddest are the ones opposing government intervention antagonistic to Microsoft. Means I have to defend Microsoft as the exemplar of freedom again oppression, for the ability of people and organizations to do as they will.
Try that one sometime.
-- Microsoft are the exemplars of "might is right" and "I've got billions in cash, you don't have a hope in hell of making me do what you want, even if you are the DoJ". The EU action is a case in point. I'm European - why should I be dictated to by an American corporation who think they can ignore European law with the same disdain they have for US law?

Anton : Anyway, you're very good at invective yourself, and trolling and righteous wrath can be fun. I have assumed that behind rhetoric we've agreed on principles. Still do.
And I enjoy our exchanges.
-- Well, thanks. My invective and occasional trolling are the actions of a discrete personna far removed from the real me. But then, this is only a board, not the real world happy
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Fair treatment...
Anton Philidor 2nd Sep 2005
... is a requirement of law, and no matter how much a culprit might deserve unfair treatment, the law suffers most from unfairness.

You can be completely correct about Microsoft, and at base you often are, but Microsoft must be treated as a corporation with the legal rights of corporations.

If they're sentenced to forfeit those rights as a result of past misconduct, fine, but penalizing them from a general distaste violates law itself.


I've heard people defend not paying their electric bills because the electric company is large, has a lot of money, and swindles. I've heard people say that piracy is acceptable because of the faults of the content companies. The law doesn't acknowledge arguments like these, and that's as it should be.

Are you sure you don't tell people off in the "real world"? Such skills as yours can be honed only with practice, and using those skills can be enjoyable. Hard to think you'd miss chances. happy
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Done! StarOffice is the ticket
garyedwards@... 2nd Sep 2005
OpenOffice.org's big sister, StarOffice, is able to do mass conversions of all sorts of Microsoft files into the OpenDoc XML file format. Big sister can even do whole directories and subdirectories. She can even do conversions across distributed directories.

Conversion of legacy MS docs to OpenDoc XML is not going to be a problem. Neither is training and providing support for Massachusetts government workers, local providers or support groups going to be a problem.

OOo - OpenDoc related communities, vendors, partners, and solution providers are organizing as i write to step up to the challenges ahead. You've already made the mistake of underestimating the importance of Open Standards, Open XML technologies and the power of the Open Internet. Don't compound your mistake by underestimating those who live and breath the bounty of the emerging Open Internet digital civilization.

And oh yeah, keep in mind that the OpenDocument XML spec is supported by a robust marketplace of competing initiatives that includes OpenOffice.org, StarOffice, Novell Office, KOffice, IBM's WorkPlace, Google's WorkPlace, Red Hat Office, Linspire Office, Mepis Office, Xandros Office, Stellent Enterprise Publication and Content Management systems, Zope, Plone, Apache, Mozilla, Arbortext, the Oracle Collaboration Suite, Xradius, Adobe, and perhaps most importantly, Boeing. Boeing was the 900 lbs. Gorilla quietly but forcefully directing OpenDoc to meet the specific needs of large enterprise users everywhere (thank you Doug Alberg). Corel Office was a major contributor to the OpenDoc work, but when Microsoft unloaded their phony prop up of Corel (needed to persuade the anti trust courts that corporate competitors exist), all the hard work and support of OpenDocument went with it, (Corel engineers did the SVG parts of OpenDoc). No surprise there.

Cmon Anton. Look at that list. And if i showed you a list of the corporate members of OASIS who supported the OpenDocument ratification you would absolutely choke. The only OASIS member company available to vote, but not voting for OpenDocument, was Microsoft. You can add CA, Documentum, HP, Intel and so many others to the list of OpenDocument supporters that the clarity of this momentous development becomes beyond clear. Everybody gets the value of Open Standards, excepting for the one company Open Standards hurts.

This is more about open systems and the extraordinary measures of open interoperability sought by Open Standards efforts, and perfected by Open Source communities, than anything else. The sad truth for the tribe of Microsoft faithful is that the Open Internet is larger and more important than the monopoly base. There are simply more users of the Open Internet than there are Windows users. The numbers behind this global tsunami are incredible. Windows is a Balkan style divided community with the only uniting factor being the hatred and mistrust of the platforms benefactor, Microsoft.

The principles that drive the Open Internet are those of no barrier to entry global participation. And then there is this important point you would do well to understand and remember. The Open Internet is owned by none, and used by all. These principles are 180 contrary to what drives Microsoft. I don't know how you bridge that divide. It would be easier to stitch together the San Andreas fault.

Let these thoughts burn on your brain for a while. Everyone who has ever used the Open Internet is in some way aware that it is open, owned by no one, used by all. Talk about killer philosophies!

Now take that burning thought and extend it to everything else. In the age of the Open Internet what makes things valuable is their measure of participation. If you try to control participation, you limit it, and you become less valuable. The Law of Google is simple. If you expand participation, anything you put in front of the participants shares in the participatory value you have created.

This isn't rocket science. Instead of directing your anger towards those who will beat you every time when the name of the game is the Open Internet, as they just demonstrated, why not turn instead to the problem that Windows is not an Open Internet ready operating system? And the Windows application ? productivity environment is likewise not ready for the Open Internet?

We're at that interesting inflection point, the fabled fork in the road, when we turn to look at the lady who brought us to the dance, and realize that our future, if we are to have one, is that of dancing with so many others. This dilemma hurts you, but makes my day. I like opportunity. I hate being owned, controlled, and forever dependent on the permissions of Redmond. The truth is that the choice to dance is all Microsoft's. If they decline, there is adventure, excitement, and world of Open Internet opportunities that not only awaits us, but is grabbing ass and hitting on us every time we turn around.

If Microsoft chooses instead to support Open Standards and embrace Open XML technologies, without trying to deceitfully extend and corrupt them, by all means, let's dance! Let's rekindle the flame! The night is young!

At this point though, who in their right mind would ever trust Microsoft? Yes grasshopper, in spite of everything you might think, the Open Internet and the Open Source communities who live and die by it, run entirely on ?trust?. This is an impossible hill for Microsoft to climb. I have long insisted that the worst thing that could ever happen to Microsoft would be to have been convicted of illegal and reprehensible business practices, and not be punished. And that is exactly what has happened. Not only can we not trust Microsoft, but there is no rule of Law we can fall back on when there is a breach of contract. It's every man for themselves. The risk of working with Microsoft is very high. For me, too high.

Both Massachusetts and the European Union have given Microsoft a rather simple choice. They have said either provide support for Open Standards and Open XML technologies, because we are indeed moving to an Open Internet infrastructure, or, go your own way. The choice is Microsoft's.

Of course, it wouldn't be possible for either Massachusetts or the EU to throw such a statement down the gauntlet if not for the fact that reasonable alternatives do exist. The combination of OpenOffice.org and Mozilla will run on 95% of the installed Windows base without having to upgrade hardware, OS, and the application productivity layer. Same with IBM's extraordinary WorkPlace. You can't say that though about Microsoft's entry in the collaborative computing arena, MS Office 12. To get collaborative features matching those currently available in the final beta release candidate for OOo 2.0, especially the XForms-SVG-SMiL features so important to the EU, you would have to upgrade the entire Massachusetts Windows infrastructure. You would have to upgrade hardware to be able to run a required integrated stack of software that includes Windows XP, MS Office 12 Professional (you need InfoPath), the entire .NET framework, and then connect to a suite of Windows servers that includes Exchange, SharePoint, Collaboration server, and Server 2003. Open wallet. Swallow hard. Kiss whatever dreams you had of ever owning your information and information processes good-bye. Grab onto to whatever fire walls and virus protection methods you can cobble together. Bend over. And say hello to Microsoft collaborative computing.

Now, notice that the Massachusetts documentation regarding OpenDoc XML requirements, has a noticeable focus on SOA. Which is to say, Massachusetts is dead set on moving everything to an Open Internet ? Open XML infrastructure. Calculate what it costs to get an Open Internet ready digital forms structure in place with OOo, and then compare it to the enormous upgrade cost required to get MS forms capable of the same. Now understand that this incredible XForms advantage didn't even figure into the Massachusetts decision! Forms are not only the most basic business component, they are laughably the way government works. Yet they didn't figure into this decision?

My point is that the Massachusetts decision was based on the lowest level of infrastructure concerns. They are moving to an Open Internet based system. Microsoft is unwilling to cooperate by providing them with Open Internet ready applications that can work with an Open XML standard file format. Hint to the clueless, Open XML is the Open Internet API for collaborative computing. If XForms had entered into the discussion, this would have been a slam dunk for OpenDocument XML.

There is also another phenomenon you might ponder. For those of us who are dedicated to the emerging digital civilization the Open Internet has wrought, some things are certain. We know Open Standards matter. We know Open XML technologies are the keys to the kingdom. We know that Open Source communities produce highly interoperable components that are either compliant with Open Standards, or marketplace candidates to become Open Standards. We also know that every time we convince another hapless Windows user that the Open Internet matters, our own survival is further assured. It's kind of like the corollary to why Windows supporters fight so hard to stop anyone from fleeing the plantation. When you lose participation, you lose. When we gain participation, we live to fight another day. And are that much stronger.

Finally, there are those who point to the Massachusetts decision and smirk that this is the only state refusing to settle with Microsoft. Let's put this in the proper perspective. Microsoft was found guilty of the most reprehensible and often illegal business practices ever to be entered into anti trust evidence. Massachusetts simply represents the victims of what turned out to be a multi decades long crime wave. It is up to the perp to settle or be sued. So all that's happened here is that Microsoft is reluctant to pay for the full cost of the damages their illegal activities caused.

Regardless of whatever happened in the past, it is still an excellent idea for Massachusetts to move to the Open Internet, to demand Open Standards, and to require support for Open XML technologies. They did the right thing in avoiding any binding reference to platforms or applications. Now Microsoft has to deal with it. And this is just the beginning.

You're the best Anton. That David Berlind should be so honored with both yourself and No Axe is the ultimate compliment from Microsoft. I'm in awe.

~ge~
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When someone from Massachusetts...
Anton Philidor 2nd Sep 2005
... attempts to download a document using the software that came with Windows 95 or 98, even 3.1, will he be successful without further effort?

Without considering the future, MA has to work with the present capabilities. This might not be a problem with the contemplated action, but it should be the first consideration for them.

Your post about the future deserves a considered response. Now, thank you for what I believe to be a compliment and not a trope.
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Downloads
Yagotta B. Kidding 2nd Sep 2005
When someone from Massachusetts attempts to download a document using the software that came with Windows 95 or 98, even 3.1, will he be successful without further effort?

Well, when she tries to download with what came with Win3.1 she's out of luck because Win3.1 didn't have Internet capability built in.

With 95 and 98, sure, no basic problem.

Now, to answer the question I suspect you meant to ask: no. None of the document formats in question, wheter OpenDoc or MSDoc, are readable with base-level Microsoft operating systems. This is as true of LongVista as of PCDOS1.0

If, on the other hand, someone wants to acquire software to read these documents, then they have the choice of paying several hundred dollars for Microsoft Office -- or they can download any of several free OpenDocument packages such as OpenOffice.org, KOffice, etc.

Whether the latter is a greater burden on the people of Massachussetts than the former is a public-policy question best left to those citizens' representatives. I don't get the impression that you are one of them, and I certainly am not.
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Might it not be better...
Anton Philidor 2nd Sep 2005
... if the representatives of the people of Massachusetts put as little burden on those they represent as possible?

I still think the best solution is using the format that requires as little introduction of new software to people's computers as possible. And if any new software must be introduced, that software should be appropriate to the most antique machine that tries to use it.
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Boggle
Yagotta B. Kidding 2nd Sep 2005
/*
the representatives of the people of Massachusetts put as little burden on those they represent as possible?
*/

That's not their primary responsibility. It's not even a secondary one; it's more like #4 on the list.

Primary: make sure that the documents are available to all of the citizens of the Commonwealth, not just those who are granted permission by some third party. This really can't be negotiable in a democracy.

Secondary: make sure that the documents are available, without restriction, over the statutory archival period. Ideally, available for scholarly purposes forever.

Tertiary: minimize the cost to the people of the Commonwealth to access those documents once #1 and #2 are met.

Quaternary (maybe): reduce the inconvenience of accessing the documents once #1, #2, and #3 are met.

/*
And if any new software must be introduced, that software should be appropriate to the most antique machine that tries to use it.
*/

You do realize that you're arguing against MS here, don't you?
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Burdensome
Anton Philidor 2nd Sep 2005
It's a burden if access to documents is difficult. (Though access to some documents is always restricted.)
It's a burden if documents are mechanically unavailable, whether immediately or long after the documents are issued.
It's a burden if access to the documents costs a significant amount.

This is not a disagreement.


I also was not considering Microsoft's advantage when I said that if someone had to download new software to access documents, the software should be easy to install and use on any version of Windows.


Excessively sensitive to boggling, I think.
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OOo 2.0 Mass Conversion Utility
garyedwards@... 7th Sep 2005
Whoops! My mistake. After i made the post explaining that StarOffice has long had the ability to perfect mass conversions of documents, including the entire legacy of MS .docs, some kind soul at OpenOffice.org notified me that the current ?final? release candidate for OOo v2.0 also includes this same conversion capability. Massachusetts is just a download away from unrestricted use of a mass conversion utility that will put the entire MS document store into OpenDocument with a point and click. This includes spreadsheets and PowerPoint presentations.

I wonder though. What about all those government forms? Can they be converted?

One of the most extraordinary features of OpenDocument is the XForms capabilities. Although Massachusetts didn't mention XForms, this was a most important requirement for the EU. In fact, in August of 2004 the EU requested that the ODF technical committee complete the XForms ? SVG ? SMiL inclusions by September of 2004, in time for their grand requirements announcement. Somehow we got this done. (Somehow? Oh wait, i do know how it was done ? XML engineer extraordinaire Daniel Volgelheim worked night and day to get it done. By October of 2004 he also had a complete XForms interface built into OOo. An interface that turns out to be every bit as good, and perhaps better than the $350 MS InfoPath application!)

My apologies to the OOo v2.0 developers. The conversion utility is awesome.

~ge~
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Avoiding the best.
Anton Philidor 2nd Sep 2005
Mr. Berlind, how do you distinguish between proprietary formats for the sake of lock-in only and proprietary formats which are necessary for addition of significant value to the product?

As an example of the malign use of a "standard", one which is intended to avoid being consistent with Microsoft products is essentially a commercial move against Microsoft, and not an effort for commonality.

On the other hand, a product which performs better because of its unique advantages is a positive reason to buy a product, assuming you can use those unique advantages.

Hoping you will clarify.

[There are 3 issues going here. MA public facing. MA internal and connected with vendors, etc. Purpose and value of standards.]
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Fingerprints
Yagotta B. Kidding 2nd Sep 2005
As an example of the malign use of a "standard", one which is intended to avoid being consistent with Microsoft products is essentially a commercial move against Microsoft, and not an effort for commonality.

I presume you're referring to OpenDocument as a "malign standard" that was "intended to avoid being consistent with Microsoft products?"

Microsoft helped draft it.

HTH. HAND.
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If Microsoft agreed to the standard...
Anton Philidor 2nd Sep 2005
... as applied, then Microsoft has no complaints about the current situation in Massachusetts and there is no issue here to discuss.
Gotcha's can dissipate.

I'm talking about standards as weapons. They are. That's why they're so hard fought. It's faux naif to argue that the source of a standard or the composition of the membership of a standard setting body guarantees that the standard has been set without regard to commercial realities.
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You have no idea
Yagotta B. Kidding 2nd Sep 2005
I'm talking about standards as weapons. They are. That's why they're so hard fought. It's faux naif to argue that the source of a standard or the composition of the membership of a standard setting body guarantees that the standard has been set without regard to commercial realities.

Anton, I chair a standards committee -- you'd probably recognize it. You have absolutely no idea just how much politics goes into those things.

Which is OK, because the fundamental dynamics work. It works as (IMHO) it should: for the customers first and the vendors second. All of the vendors would prefer to have everyone using their own private designs, but they recognize that it's better to have an equal chance of a commodity market than to play "all or nothing" going for a monopoly.

In the end, they work together to make sure that we collectively deliver value to the industry because that's the only long-term viable solution. The only time it really fails is when a single player gains enough clout to bend the system, but so far we've been fortunate enough that attempts like that have failed.
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So it's going to be a commodity market.
Anton Philidor 2nd Sep 2005
You wrote:
All of the vendors would prefer to have everyone using their own private designs, but they recognize that it's better to have an equal chance of a commodity market than to play "all or nothing" going for a monopoly.

All is right.
The customers should have a commodity market, and that's what they're going to have.

If any company thinks they can obtain an advantage by providing more to customers than the customers can obtain from implementations of the standard, you're there to stop them.

To me, that's not setting a standard, that's controlling the parameters of a market. But I'll assume that's a difficulty in phrasing.

If a company innovated an amazing new product that extended or threw away the standard and created a new model of effectiveness, you wouldn't think of standing in the innovator's way. Even if the innovator patented that remarkable new approach and refused to sell any licenses.

Because, as you say, the purpose of the standard is for the benefit of the customer.

-------------- wink --------------------
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Standards, redux
Yagotta B. Kidding 2nd Sep 2005
Regarding my particular committee:

If any company thinks they can obtain an advantage by providing more to customers than the customers can obtain from implementations of the standard, you're there to stop them.

Nope, they're welcome to go ahead. But they're also going to have very little support from the rest of the players, which dramatically reduces their delivered value.

Network effect, all that. Once standards take hold in a market, the most viable route to improvement for any one vendor is to promote extensions to the standard itself rather than incompatibility.

If a company innovated an amazing new product that extended or threw away the standard and created a new model of effectiveness, you wouldn't think of standing in the innovator's way. Even if the innovator patented that remarkable new approach and refused to sell any licenses.

It's happened. They bombed in the market. Turns out that standard, multi-sourced "good" products were more attractive to the market in general than a sole-sourced or licensed "amazing" product was.

You'd certainly recognize the situation if I told you, and then you'd know who I am, and then I'd have to kill you.
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Microsoft is a member of the OpenDoc TC
garyedwards@... 2nd Sep 2005
Since the founding of the OASIS OpenDocument Technical Committee, Microsoft has been a registered member with "observer" status. That means they get full participation in all discussions, documentation, proposal review and response, and even the conformance - compliance testing effort.

In short, Microsoft has full access to everything involving OpenDoc XML. It's their choice as to whether or not they want to become an active contributor and voting participant.

It's also their choice as to whether or not they will enable users of their software to work directly with OpenDoc XML based compound documents.

Sun engineers on the OpenDoc TC having been trying for three months to perfect a transformation of MSXML to OpenDoc XML and back. Short of reverse engineering the binary key that binds the presentation aspects of MSXML to the MS Windows-Application stack, there is no easy way of doing this. Which is to say that MSXML is not an Open XML implementation. (And then there's that horrid MS XML Reference License where possible patents, permissions, and royalty fees hang like a Damoclean sword over the heads of those who dare work with MSXML).

Put yourself in Massachusetts' shoes. You know that SOA and the Open Internet is where you want to go. You know that Open Standards and Open XML Technologies in particular is the way to get there. You also know that there is one and only one Open XML file format specification duly ratified as global standard (OpenDoc is now in front of ISO awaiting consideration).

As you stand in those Massachusetts' shoes, you look around and see that the majority of your desktops are running on Windows 98 with MS Office 97 as default productivity environment. There is a smattering of Windows 95 machines at one extreme, quite a few Win 2OOO machines here and there, and almost no Windows XP installs except for upper management. The cost of upgrading these systems to run MS Office 12 Professional is enormous. The cost of brining on line the suite of MS servers needed to activate the collaborative computing features in MS Office 12 is staggering (you need Exchange, SharePoint, Collaboration Server, Server 2003, and MS Office Server).

Then you look at the incredible ecosystem of offerings that is growing up around OpenOffice.org components and OpenDocument XML. You realize that you can outfit your entire government with Open Internet collaborative computing capabilities exactly in line with your SOA vision, and do it today, and do it for a fraction of the cost a Microsoft solution would exact.

To be competitive with OpenOffice.org (or any of the many other OpenDoc XML providers), Microsoft would have to outfit everything going back to MS Office 97 with MSXML capabilities. And, they would have to open up MSXML to meet the interoperability demands an Open Internet SOA infrastructure demands.

If you could put aside the incredibly corruptive influence buying that took place in Massachusetts, (dollars raining from Redmond), this wasn't all that difficult a decision. Really.

~ge~
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And...
Anton Philidor 2nd Sep 2005
You wrote:
On other technological fronts, many of such "organizations" have already sacrificed some functionality so that they may experience the benefits of open standards and now realize that that they've managed quite nicely while enjoying the leverage they now have over their technology providers.

This is not really an answer.

If an organization is being cost money or efficiency for the specific purpose of avoiding the best possible results because those results are available from only one vendor, then that justification is going to seem tenuous to others in the organization.

That seems the triumph of a principle of antagonism over efficiency, and that's not usually acceptable. Reminds me that IT administrative control is often not left with staff from within IT.

There's a difference between nice to have and increasing productivity. If you're not observing that distinction, then you're not making a successful argument, I believe.

On cost, vendors do negotiate. And organizations have standards on what a reasonable price to pay can be for required functionalities. In other words, software can cost too much or an acceptable amount. Remember the old joke about technology being worrisome because it comes from the low bidder? Companies get the point of that joke.
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Re: Avoiding the best.
none none 2nd Sep 2005
Mr. Berlind, how do you distinguish between proprietary formats for the sake of lock-in only and proprietary formats which are necessary for addition of significant value to the product?

No such distinction need be made. The formats are distinguishable by whether they're documented or secret. The point has been made to you by at least three other posters and an excerpt from the State of MA web site discussing the issue.


happy
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DAVID: It's not insecurity, it's...
ordaj@... 2nd Sep 2005
...perceived profits. Vendors think that by "locking you in" they have some advantage or leverage. Regardless, that it has been shown time and time again, that openness wins and usually provides more and larger opportunities or profits for them.
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Go David!
Stephen Wheeler 2nd Sep 2005
David,

You should grow a thick skin against the attacks of such troglodytes.

You asked: "I often wonder if vendors are that insecure about their implementations of open standards that they must lock us into questionable ? often failed ? implementations of proprietary functionality. This isn't an issue that's specific to one vendor. Everywhere you look ? take blade servers for example ? this insecurity appears to exist."

As someone who has worked for several ICT companies I am sad to report; Yes, they really are that insecure.

Getting customers to hand over hard cash for goods and services is split into two distinct areas; Sales, and Marketing. A key factor in commercial sales is the constant search for 'differentiation'. In essence: What do we do differently, and what value does that add for the customer. Often, this breaks down into: What does the customer need and want (and why) - how can we match and better that? The most common excuse for a missed sale is: "We have no differentiator" [sometimes: "Our competitor has (a) great differentiator(s) - but it's the same excuse really]. If one can ignore price issues (which happens more often than you might think), under investigation this can often, quite easily, be defined as one of two problems:

- Our (failed) sales people were not as close to the customer as our competitor; or
- Our (failed) sales people were not as good at presenting our case

... rather than to a real failure (lack of differentiation) in the product or service.

This, typically, happens for only one reason; Your Sales people are driving your company, instead of your Marketing people. Marketing people should have a longer term focus, and should therefore be the prime drivers of product and service development, and they should be the people developing business plans and associated partnerships with any external orgainisations - including customers.

In my experience there are two very simple tests to discover if your company is Sales-led (only one is a simple way to judge this as a customer though, with work, it is possible). Internally: Ask for a competitor breakdown of any product or service, by sector, and track how the answer is produced. If the answer comes back from people who report directly to a sales manager in all (or most) sectors, then your company is Sales led. If, by contrast, the answer is generated solely by the product or service manager - or a core competition-tracking team - your company is marketing led (and your company pension may one day actually be worth something). Good both internally and externally is to ask to meet a (your) service (or support) manager. If the Service Manager and Sales Rep (a.k.a. Account Manager, Account Director, Contract Manager, etc.) report (ultimately) up to the same Sector Manager your company (or supplier) is almost certainly Sales led.

If you are a senior manager who receives monthly sales reports that talk constantly (and in many creative ways, as is always the way with excuses) about your firm's lack of differentiation the net effect is exactly what you described - insecurity. You are convinced that your company only exists because your sales people are so incredibly good - battling to sell a tiny amount of added value against immense odds...

You went on, David, to say: "Personally, I think that in almost every open standard there exists plenty of opportunity to offer a killer implementation. There's plenty of room to compete and plenty of customers to go around (and having the freedom to go around is not missing the boat)." How true.

Unfortunately, most large ICT companies compound the first error (allowing Sales to lead) with another; they use a system of, so-called, vertical marketing. This means that they align their people to market sectors (e.g. Finance, Government, Health Services, Manufacturing, Retail, etc.). On the face of it this is a good basis for marketing (as someone once said: "If you're not talking segmentation, you're not talking markets"). However, as ICT companies typically align to their markets this is not good marketing. With very few exceptions they:
- Produce 'standard' product/service; then
- 'Mass-Customize' according to customer needs.

It should be easy to see that this system, while it offers the supplier economies of scale, offers customers only productization (a.k.a. a box selling culture), product rigidity, bureaucratic development cycles, confusion over product development direction (which sector comes first?), and so on...

By extension such rigidities make it easy for the Sales-led company to convince itself that it has missed sales because they failed to 'differentiate'. The problem lies in the (less powerful, 'non-revenue-earning') marketing group, or in the inflexible management of segments (like, not letting Sales Managers sign their own partnership agreements or invest in segment-specific products), or in the poor quality of the over-worked Product Managers' output - but never with the sales team...

Stirring open standards into this mix only strengthens the hand of the Sales Manager. The use of open standards makes it even more imperative to differentiate - because all competitors know how to supply to the standards from day one... As Ordaj posted, vendor lock-in can also (sometimes, though this is a trap for poor marketers too) be a sign of a Sales-led company. Because it is at precisely at this point that the sales managers say; "Hey if you could think of a way to 'lock in' customers to some proprietary file format, instruction set (e.g. the many proprietary implementations of the open standard database query script SQL), programming interface, systems management tool, obscure standard, IPR-governed standard (this list is quite long - such is the creative intelligence that is expended when making a buck) then we will have some advantage or leverage in future sales." Again, as Ordaj points out in his talkback this logic has succeeded time and again in complete contradiction to logic and the available records. Companies that support open standards, in the longer term, always end up ahead. The classic ICT case study being, of course, the re-invention of IBM.

If, on the other hand, ICT suppliers were truly vertically aligned, as they claim, they would actually produce vertical products and services - and economies-of-scale-friendly-company-standards would be an option (and a challenge, but, hey, who wants an easy life?). This is where killer implementations come from - and it is why small, niche, providers constantly spring up. In the spring of '03 I was asked to research the Independent Software Vendor (ISV) market for the wholesale finance industry (mostly Exchanges, Clearinghouses, Hedge Funds and Investment Banks). There were so many ISVs that, after a while, I gave up trying to catagorize them all. The ones I did list all had at least three customers who thought that their ISV-supplier provided a 'killer' implementation. They survive in a sea where big sharks with names like Microsoft, Oracle, IBM, EDS, Accenture, Sun, and many more, swim close by...

But something else struck me - something that led me down the path of discovery that highlighted the above truths. Major investment, and R&D, are NOT REQUIRED to create a 'killer' implementation.

So where does all that money for software licences go? Why (How?) do major software companies spend so much on R&D? [Hardware is a little different but, it has to be said, for standardized equipment such as routers, server blades, and laptops the same rules apply] The answer as best as I have been able to discover is that a big slice is spent on 'marketing' (taking customer feedback, then shoe-horning yours and a hundered thousand other Opinion Formers' wants into one homogenised development path) and on singing the praises of each new product's 'standard' offerings, and mass-customization offerings (which these days includes the costs of working through development partners' ideas and paying to advertise those too). In order to protect that investment, and create monopolies on programs in order to certify the value of their sales channels, they also spend a lot of money on IPR (e.g. copyright protections) - registration, chasing anyone foolish enough to challenge their 'ownership', going to court, government lobbying, etc. etc.. Oh, and because they are so valuable, the sales people and the sales managers (and the ultimate sales managers, the company's directors) all need to be 'properly' paid to keep them on...

You were right the first time - and you are right again. Open Standards like OpenDoc, that are free to be adopted and changed or adjusted by the wider industry, are the bedrock on which great new directions in our industry are founded, and how economy-wide value is created using ICT.

Open standards, including open source distros, are also the essential tools required by any ICT customer who wants to retain control over their administrative infrastructure. This has never been more true, or more important, than today. We are at the dawn of a new age in commerce - when the combined power of communications and computers will reduce transaction costs (ex. physical transportation - which affects only a minority of industries) to near-zero, instantaneously, at miniscule risk. New ways of doing business are already automatically suggesting themselves, and old business models are being challenged (think: publishing, and shopping).

Human ingenuity has the potential to enjoy a new playing field at least as broad as any that has gone before - though all the signs are that it is much bigger. The opportunities on offer can only be fully realized if thoughts can be turned into actions. That can only happen with the freedom to act now. That can only happen with the freedom to change whatever you darn well want, without having to pick up the 'phone and speak to your Sales Rep. who, as we have seen, can't change diddly for you anyway...

Given the number of people who are, literally, frightened by this reality it should be of no surprise that Old Software will pull as many strings as possible in order to prolong the cash-generating life of their old regime. Given that this will also mean they will lobby their friends in government as hard as possible, then we all owe the the people who govern Massachusetts a huge vote of thanks.
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I agree, if people don't want the feature set then of course they don't need it. (But then why use MS Office?) However, the issue there really is no way to save to OpenDoc without loss of features. Those claiming they can simply have no understanding of PowerPoint. (Staying with PPT as I used it as an example before.)

I see a number of people using Open Office to import PowerPoint presentations and the complaint is ALWAYS the same, it doesn't maintain the animations, the transitions, multimedia, etc. Of course no one blames Open Office, they blame MS. Go figure...

I also noticed you pretty much ignored my comments on not being able to support DRM and IRM in an OpenDoc document. (Or anything approaching SharePoint or Groove.)

Microsoft is getting heat from every direction about security (both the OS and the Office documents) and your asking them to provide a backdoor to it all. Doesn't seem like a good move to me. (They can tell users it isn't secure but users are notorious for ignoring warnings and screaming bloddy murder when it all goes wrong.)

I suppose they *could* write an export feature much as Word has an export to RTF. (Or HTML) But guess what? They get constant complaints about this feature in Word because the translation isn't perfect. It really is a case of damned if they do and damned if they don't. (Not to mention supporting it and associated costs.)

FYI" It's he.

As I said, it is doable, but not what I would call doing it well. This is just my opinion (I am certain there are others) but I think MS did the right thing by going to XML and documenting it. Building a small app to read the XML into something else is not a huge task and I am willing to bet that once Office 12 is released you'll see a ton of apps (both proprietary and open source) to work with the XML file format. (We are already working on it in my small company.)

I would again pose the question, "If you have no need or desire for th feature set in MS Office, why would you buy it when there are cheaper (less capable) replacements? Second, as these replacements are the competition, what economic sense would it make for MS to do this? (I agree there may be customer needs that have to be looked at.)

To use the old car analogy (sorry) yes Ford could build their engine compartment, mounts, tranny hookup, etc. to use a Chevy engine, but why would they?
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Feature Wars
Harry Bardal 2nd Sep 2005
As you march off to the feature wars, consider peace as an
alternative. David made the point that control is the issue.
Allowing defacto standards to dominate subverts consumer
power. The logic gate, in the abstract is vital to our progress, as
companies, as a species. Promoting a single stock into the
position of sole arbiter is hopelessly misguided, economically as
well as technically. DRM has to float on open specs. Apple has
done this with Fair Play and mpeg 4. Everyone else can and does
work with the larger community. Why can't Microsoft? They
choose not to. A smaller number of different DRMs must coexist.
If all content funnels into a MS licence our options are removed.

The XML move is just another embrace and extinguish, just
another .Net/Java, DirectX/OpenGL, Apple GUI, the list goes on.
The car analogy is so far off it's funny. At what point will people
understand how fundamentally different thes issues are. The
computer isn't a phone, it's a phone's replacement, it isn't a TV,
it a TV's replacement. All but a few people vastly underestimate
the extent to which the computer will replace a good many other
things as well. To a great extent, your car is likely one of them.

With every argument for monoculture-driven standards, you
cede control to your vendor. This argument is about how we as
individuals and as companies position ourselves relative to
technology. The discerning business keeps it's hand on the tiller.
Quite frankly, even if Apple's Keynote didn't take Powerpoint to
the shed, a nice slide dissolve wouldn't be worth losing that.
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Now wait a second.
No_Ax_to_Grind 2nd Sep 2005
You said, "Everyone else can and does
work with the larger community. Why can't Microsoft?"

I assume you see the irony in the fact Microsoft *IS* the larger community. Your asking for a dog willing to be wagged by a very tiny tail.
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If you have no need or desire for th feature set in MS Office, why would you buy it when there are cheaper (less capable) replacements? Second, as these replacements are the competition, what economic sense would it make for MS to do this? (I agree there may be customer needs that have to be looked at.)

Let's say you break your work down and categorize it into 10,000 different minute tasks, you may find that only four or five require the advanced features of MS Office (those are made up numbers, your actual numbers will vary). But your job requires that you do all 10,000 tasks, so getting only 9,995 of those tasks done will get you fired. In that case you would NEED to buy the advanced of MS Office, because you have to get all of your job done.

However, more than 99% of the time you don't need that feature set, so it would be nice to save it in a standard format so you can be sure it can be read in any office suite you (or whomever you may be sharing it with) may be using, be it at work, on the road, or home. I for one would think it would be nice to not need MS Office at home so I can do some of that 99%+ of my job at home if needed, and save those couple of tasks for when I get into work. Certainly that would save me money personally, if not for my business.

That all said, it's my understanding that you could buy or download a plugin (which may or may not yet exist) that could enable MS to save/convert to/from the OpenDoc format. I actually think that is a BETTER method of going about it than requiring MS to support it out of the box. Remember Lewis Mettler? He always had the arguement that MS Windows should not be bundled with TCP/IP software because communicating with other computers which may or may not have the same OS is not the job of the OS proper. That job should be the job of add-in software (plugins, if you will). While I (like most other reasonable people) don't agree with that, I could agree with the notion that an office suite should not be responsible for being able to save in formats that are not its own native format for the purpose of being able to use that document on another suite. That job should be the job of a plugin. Because you may never need to save to OpenDoc, so why should you have to pay the extra $30 that MS Office would cost just because I have the need to save to OpenDoc? And because it is my understanding that MS allows for such plugins, I have no reason to complain. I'll be spending the extra $30 either way, so why should I force you to spend it unnecessarily?
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You need feature ABC, I need XYZ...
No_Ax_to_Grind 2nd Sep 2005
Do I use every feature in Office? No, but I am cerain the ones I use are different than the ones you use.

Hmmm, I see a lot of folks that never use the caps key when they IM, should we remove all the shift keys on all keyboards?

I agree, if people don't want the feature set then of course they don't need it. (But then why use MS Office?)



Because it came with the computer, and Notepad doesn't even have a lot of the basics such as spellcheck? That's why most people use Word in the first place, regardless of whether they use even a fraction of its features . . .

In any case, with both Word and OpenOffice.org switching to XML formats, I expect that this won't be an issue for very long.
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Where? On what planet?
No_Ax_to_Grind 4th Sep 2005
Show me where MS Office "comes with the computer". EVERY OEM I see charges for it.

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