Jury questions in Google-Oracle trial hint at copyright infringement
Summary: The jury returned with more questions in the Oracle-Google trial, which suggest that they could be on the road to finding for copyright infringement.
SAN FRANCISCO -- The jury in the Oracle-Google trial returned without a verdict yet but with more questions at the U.S. District Court on Wednesday morning. Yet the nature of their questions suggest where some the jurors might be thinking.
CNET: Oracle tries to rewrite Sun history, alter Java's future
Both questions this time focused on fair use and Android revenue. Specifically, one juror asked if "the definition of commercial use is limited in this case by virtue of Android being freely distributed," adding if that means because it is not sold directly or if they could consider indirect revenue from the mobile platform.
Oracle's lead attorney Michael Jacobs asked Judge William Alsup to answer "directly and crisply" with yes or no answers. More pointedly, Oracle wants to be as specific as possible in answering these questions and that indirect revenue from Android should be considered a case of commercial use -- not a fair one.
"All they're asking is whether or not this evidence can be considered for commercial use," said Jacobs. "The answer is, of course, yes."
Google's head lawyer Robert Van Nest objected, explaining that "the only proper answer is to say that the questions are already adequately addressed in the instructions."
"I think that would be wrong to put any sort of hand on the scale, your honor, of what particular evidence they can and cannot consider," said Van Nest, urging the judge to give a more general response to the jury.
Jacobs rebutted, asserting from closing statements that Google didn't argue that the use of the 37 Java APIs was not commercial, but only transformative.
"We're splitting hairs here and trying to put too fine a point on it," Judge Alsup responded wearily, proceeding to call the jury back into the courtroom.
"I try my best, but there are traditional limitations on what a judge can say at this point," Judge Alsup told the jury. "It's important whenever you hear an answer like the one I'm about to give you to remind you that there's an entire paragraph, and you don't want to give undue weight to anything."
Giving a crisp answer as Oracle's counsel requested, Judge Alsup kept things short for the jurors with a single response to their questions.
"With respect to the first factor that calls out the purpose and character of the use, that phrase contemplates both direct and indirect uses," Judge Alsup instructed simply, immediately adding that the jury could return to deliberations.
After asking both sides if there were any further matters, neither attorneys had anything else to discuss --although Jacobs did look more pleased than Van Nest at the end of proceedings.
Judge Alsup concluded for now, "We'll continue right along. Stand by."
The jury began deliberating on Monday afternoon after lawyers from both Oracle and Google offered their closing statements for the first segment of this trial.
On Tuesday, both legal teams met in the courtroom for a one-hour conference at 10AM PDT, debating answers to jury questions concerning Google’s use of Java APIs from Apache Harmony as well as Oracle's proposed witness list for the next segment of the trial, which will focus on patent infringement.
Related:
- Oracle CFO: We never wanted this lawsuit with Google
- Oracle: Google wanted easy route to Android revenue with Java
- Google: Sun, Oracle couldn’t compete with Android
- Trial: Page, Rubin and Schmidt: How did they do?
- Decisions about Java use debated in Oracle-Google trial
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Talkback
more signs that oracle will lose
Human nature: While we do love the idea of "free".
Pagan jim
Nor of them being taken without permission which is what google did.
but...
Explain this then
Reverse Engineering Is Not Copyright Infringement
What 'Character for Character' Code?
Please point to an example of "character for character matching code, including comments." If any such evidence has been presented, I haven't seen it.
CFWhitman: Yes, exactly. There is none.
Huh?
Yeah, now Sun is bought by Oracle and they take the hard free labor of others only to screw people over who want to use it! You're right when you say they're trying to get maximum reward for minimum effort.
That doesn't even contribute to the discussion. Back under your bridge!
Yes, as the Judge instructed the jury before
Ummm...are you sure about that?
http://www.fosspatents.com/2012/05/oracle-v-google-cant-make-apis.html
...and have been for 20 years.
I dunno, maybe you're a smarter lawyer than him, but to me the jury's question pretty clearly indicates Google is going to lose here on the bottom-line finding of infrngement. Whether that loss turns out to be substantial or insubstantial appears to be the only question at this point.
But it makes you wonder if they're having second thoughts in Mountain View now about their "Damn the torpedoes, full steam ahead" decision re Android OS development.
Florian Mueller is 20 years behind (bless his heart)
Not exactly.
as NOT being protected by copyright (methods and properties) while
the code BEHIND those methods may indeed be so. There are many ways to get the same results, but in many cases you will have people
come to the same conclusion independently. It all depends on how complex the methods are.
richard233: That's exactly right
Mueller conflicted
Then Why Haven't All the Reverse Engineered Systems Been Violations?
If APIs were copyrightable then there would have to be some kind of violation in the world of CP/M, MS-DOS, PC-DOS, DR-DOS, and FreeDOS. Yet no copyright infringement case ever happened. Also, compatibility layers like Wine would be open to copyright infringement cases. I'm sure there are a lot more examples of cases that never were. APIs have never been copyrightable and it's a bit late to change that now.
Incidentally, Florian Mueller is paid to have an opinion in line with what the people who hire him want. He's not an unbiased source. He's written a lot of what amounts to complete nonsense from a legal standpoint in the past.
Florian Mueller is not neutral
Florian who???
Right, his view is very objective! I think even more objective than Larry's. :-)
Not that this is gonna change Johnny Vegas' mind but