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Between the Lines

Larry Dignan, Andrew Nusca and Rachel King

Microsoft's lost eight years online: More than $6 billion down the tubes

By | August 13, 2010, 3:05am PDT

Microsoft has recently touted its success with Bing — and with good reason. The search engine is gaining share and will continue to as Microsoft’s partnership with Yahoo kicks in. However, the financial hit from the last eight years of Microsoft’s Internet follies is staggering.

How big of a hit? Microsoft’s online unit has delivered more than $6 billion in operating losses on revenue topping  $19 billion over the last eight years. My adventure in Microsoft’s SEC filings began with a simple question: Has the software giant ever made money online? The good news: Microsoft has delivered a profit here and there since it has been consolidating online results. The bad news: Those profits are few and far between.

Let’s roll through the numbers.

In fiscal 2010 ending June 30, Microsoft reported an operating loss of $2.35 billion on revenue of $2.2 billion for its online services division .

Let’s be charitable and note that Microsoft’s online services division has been building out data centers for Azure. Microsoft noted in its annual report:

Cost of revenue increased $700 million or 82%, primarily driven by increased online traffic acquisition, data center and equipment, and headcount-related costs. Research and development expenses increased $153 million or 17%, primarily due to increased headcount-related expenses.

Fiscal 2009 may have had a similar story, but Microsoft still had an operating loss of $1.65 billion on revenue of $2.12 billion.

In fiscal 2008, Microsoft lost $578 million on revenue of $2.2 billion.

In fiscal 2007, Microsoft’s online unit lost $732 million on revenue of $2.43 billion.

In fiscal 2006, Microsoft’s online unit reported a $5 million profit on revenue of $2.3 billion. (Note that profit figure is in the fiscal 2008 report. The fiscal 2007 report has 2006 at an operating profit of $74 million.)

In fiscal 2005, Microsoft’s online unit reported a profit of $402 million on revenue of $2.34 billion. The key point from the 10K, which may sound a bit familiar:

In fiscal year 2005, we launched a new version of our MSN Search engine, which is based on our own technology. This change will help provide the ability to innovate more quickly and the opportunity to develop a long-term competitive advantage in search. In addition to the launch of MSN Search, we introduced many new products and product enhancements in fiscal year 2005, including a new version of the MSN home page which provides a richer user experience, quicker load times, higher levels of end user customization, and fewer advertisements and links. MSN launched the clarity in advertising program in fiscal year 2005, which removed paid advertising from inclusion in search results and resulted in a reduced number of advertisements that are returned with search results.

In fiscal 2004, Microsoft’s online division—then classified as MSN—reported a profit of $121 million on revenue of $2.21 billion.

In fiscal 2003, Microsoft’s online unit (MSN) reported an operating loss of $567 million on revenue of $1.95 billion.

In fiscal 2002, Microsoft’s online unit (MSN) reported an operating loss of $909 million on revenue of $1.57 billion.

For previous years, Microsoft lumped its online assets into a consumer software, services and devices division so the results aren’t really comparable. Also note that some of the profit and loss figures in the SEC filings shifted from year to year, but not enough to move the needle too much.

The big question after losing more than $6 billion chasing Google—and AOL and Yahoo—around: Is Microsoft getting anything out of its Internet quagmire?

At Microsoft’s financial analyst meeting last month, CEO Steve Ballmer talked about shareholder value and how it was important to the company. Given the dividends Microsoft pays out, it’s hard to argue with Ballmer.

Ballmer said the company may make a few mistakes but always thinks about ROI:

It doesn’t mean that we won’t err sometimes on the side of either over- or under-investment in certain things.  But at the end of the day, really thinking about the return on the investments that we make, really thinking about where we’re going strategically and doing that not only from a management point of view but from shareholder point of view.

But here’s the disconnect. Microsoft has generated no return on its Internet ventures. It has been nearly a lost decade for Microsoft online. Looking at the profit and losses, you could make an argument that Microsoft would have been better off avoiding the Internet. Strategically, that argument is absolutely crazy. On the financial front, shareholders may just want a dividend.

Things could change. Perhaps Microsoft’s online investment has helped it with the transition to cloud computing somehow. As things stand today, the Web is one big money pit for Microsoft.

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Larry Dignan is Editor in Chief of ZDNet and SmartPlanet as well as Editorial Director of ZDNet's sister site TechRepublic.

Disclosure

Larry Dignan

Larry Dignan has nothing to disclose. He doesn’t hold investments in the technology companies he covers.

Biography

Larry Dignan

Larry Dignan is Editor in Chief of ZDNet and SmartPlanet as well as Editorial Director of ZDNet's sister site TechRepublic. He was most recently Executive Editor of News and Blogs at ZDNet. Prior to that he was executive news editor at eWeek and news editor at Baseline. He also served as the East Coast news editor and finance editor at CNET News.com. Larry has covered the technology and financial services industry since 1995, publishing articles in WallStreetWeek.com, Inter@ctive Week, The New York Times, and Financial Planning magazine. He's a graduate of the Columbia School of Journalism and the University of Delaware.

For daily updates, follow Larry on Twitter.

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RE: Microsoft's lost eight years online: More than $6 billion lost
Bambi_123 28th Nov
He's mad that his office put in a new phone PBX that uses Linux. He wanted a MS PBX but was told cost too much.
Strange revenue never changed much since 2003. or is it too much shuffling.
does not look so bad. With all the shuffling, they still had to show 6 billion in losses over 8 years.

To put it into perspective, that is 6,000 millions. Or, 14 million a week!!! 6,000 / (8 x52)
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I doubt it. Sure I understand
John Zern 13th Aug 2010
that you want it to appear worse then it is, but then you could be onto something:

I guess alot of companies move money around to hide their loses. I wonder how many billions did Google lose on failures like the Nexus One, Wave, Gears, Buzz that they hid by the use of "creative accounting"...
have been losing. But, we all know that it was a lot more than what they are reporting.
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Likely an accurate assumption, Mr Zern
Mister Spock 15th Aug 2010
as I would imagine that Google has indeed lost quite a few billion themselves or failed endevours.

It appears there are a few here that dislike the fact that Google is no longer viewed as they once where, having to earn their way into organization, or now just overlooked in general as people search for something better.

It would be a logical assumption to believe that Google has indeed used, as you called it, "creative accounting" to hide their loses from investors.
@DonnieBoy I guess whoever oversees this collection will get the benefit of some intellectual stimulus (maybe ideas they can copy). I wonder what they'll be like if or when they think that an idea within one of the projects may infringe a company patent? Will they accept it and stay silent, or point out the problem right away? Time will tell, but I can't help feeling that Microsoft are on probation, and I'd steer clear. fesbook
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@deep@... Dont worry about him. He shows up, says it did not follow the rules. Ask what rules and you get no answer.

Nice that Ubuntu bought the rights to the work. For once a company buys the rights with out stealing it. Innovation.

He's mad that his office put in a new phone PBX that uses Linux. He wanted a MS PBX but was told cost too much.

Hey Love I was off topic there for a little bit, Im sorry.
The topic is about Ubuntu and fonts.

Ubuntu, Once again Open Source just keeps on

I like that poopy background, I think I'm going to put it on my Windows PC. araba oyunlari friv
bit side track, if Ballmar can convince Shareholder to spend 1b to subsidize the price of WP7 and even the call plans, within six months the market share can go far ahead of anyone else. And then can recover easily many folds.
@deep@... "Shareholder"? Which one? I think you mean "Shareholders"...

With Microsoft's net pile of cash, Microsoft should be able to pull themselves up by thie own bootstraps...

Or continue to use taxpayer-funded subsidy like they have for years... (a quick web search will give you plenty of sources I would otherwise cite.)
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Shareholders can't deposit 'market share'
HollywoodDog 13th Aug 2010
@deep@... Market share isn't the name of the game. Profit is the name of the game.
@HollywoodDog Mobile is a different game these days, the moment you have market share, advertisers will come, developers [for doing apps] will come and obviously profits will come.

@HypnoToad72 Yes Shareholders. Why I said this because if they cold have done this for KIN, things could've been different. And they should not repeat the same mistake.
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and 8 bn on the xbox
banned from zdnet 13th Aug 2010
and they lost around 8 bn in their entertainment and devices division (xbox, zune) over the last decade, too. only recently have they turned a small profit here. why they simply don't stop to waste money on search and gaming is beyond me. focus on your corporate business microsoft, invest there.

but i will not argue, may ballmer remain ceo for as long as it takes!
@banned from zdnet gaming has turned a profit the last few years---mainly xbox---and you could argue that xbox is a hub of the digital living room. In other words, I can make the case for the division. Unless all this Internet investment turns out to be key to Azure somehow it's hard to make the case with those losses. Fighting the last war basically...
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@Larry Dignan ... will it ever?
@HollywoodDog

They don't need to recoup the "in-the-past" money spent on xbox - it was written off several years ago.

What matters is profit and revenue growth potential going forward. Without the xbox, they would have ZERO presence in the living room/TV. Which means no Zune video streaming market, no Xbox Live memberships, no video game integration with Phone7, no media center integration, etc.

What would they prefer: specing a few billion to be a leading contender in a market (xbox) OR not spending and being in a position like they are in the mobile phone market.
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Easy to make money, when
Snooki_smoosh_smoosh 13th Aug 2010
@Larry Dignan... the user has to buy a new xbox console every couple of years, after it had already been sent into the shop 3 times for problems. I myself am on my 3rd console. My PS3 Original is still going strong.
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And my brother lost 2 Play stations, JM1981
John Zern Updated - 13th Aug 2010
Play stations to defects, (a PS2, and PS3).

Nothing great about the PS line. Now Wii looks to be a well build machine, but I really don't own any of them.
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@ababiec - "They don't need to recoup the "in-the-past" money spent on xbox - it was written off several years ago."

There's a couple ways you can look at this. If they've written off their investment in the Xbox completely, this could be nothing more than creative accounting used to increase future profits. In the accounting world we call this a "big bath", which is fraudulent, but often hard to detect. Basically a company that knows it's going to post a loss decides to post a bigger loss in order to ensure that future quarters show profit. Happens a lot, especially when there's a change at the helm (easy to blame a big loss on the outgoing boss).

Besides this, if what you're talking about is whether a product has been a success or not, then this write-down needs to be recouped, and the profit in later years has to be discounted to account for the risk in the initial endeavor (in something as high risk as game consoles, you're talking at least a 20% discount per year). At 20%, that means that in 2006 you'd need a profit of 1.2 billion dollars just to break even from a $1b loss in 2005 - in future years, that value would have to be more.
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If HollywoodDog would learn to
Mister Spock 15th Aug 2010
surpress his emotions and look at things lociglly, he would understand how inaccurate his statements are.
plain
  • Flagged
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@Larry Dignan ... it's fine to lose money forever on anything, as long as they've got an also-ran product in any given market.
They can afford to lose money forever on everything they do, as long as Windows and Office keep gushing cash.
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I'm not sure that I would call them losses, but rather investments. The Internet and related services are the future of computing. If Microsoft wishes to say relevant *and* profitable into the future, they need to figure them out.

They need to understand how to deliver search, advertising, email and other products in a way that they are both profitable and able to build their user base. If not, they risk losing business to Apple, Google and other companies that can figure it out.

Sure, Windows and Office will be profitable for several more years, but those revenue streams will first decline and eventually dry up. Microsoft knows this, which is why they (finally) seem to be taking mobile, online and gaming seriously. When they do (dry up), Microsoft will need other sources of revenue to take over. Hopefully, they will have refined products waiting at that time.

For that reason, simply trying to look at this "from the numbers" is a grave mistake.
What was the point of this article? I see no reason why losses or profits were pointed out for their online division. Are we going to get the same type of article for other companies are is this just another ZDNet Microsoft hate article?

Microsoft is a world leader in software and is leading computing into the 21 century. I really don't understand how you can call this a loss. It was more of a $6 billion investment into the future of search. Now we have a product like Microsoft Bing which has been gaining share month after month since its release. Also the Xbox online division is just as healthy. MSN is the #1 home page. Microsoft has a lot going for it thanks to that $6 billion investment it made. Sure it took them a few tries how not to do something but now they finally did and I couldn't be happier.
@Loverock Davidson Healthy? Ummm, then you missed the point of the article. Healthy means it's making money for the company which it isn't, nor is their gaming division. MSN the #1 home page? HA! That's a good one!
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RE: MSN the #1 home page?
fatman65535 13th Aug 2010
@THavoc

Only in LD's dreams!!!!!!
@THavoc
You heard me correctly, I said healthy. Microsoft is really gaining traction for its online ventures despite what this article says.
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@Loverock Davidson I think the point of the article is report on factual financial data that is freely available to anyone/everyone!! It would be surprsing to many who think they are a cash cow that they hemorrhage money out of every orafice!! You can deny facts but those of us that have jobs and deal with business decisions find this type of information important and informative. Also, if you MS stock you might want to look at unloading some of that and buying up CSCO!! Just sayin....

It is one of the few articles that have had any validity for quite some time on this site. Stuck to the facts and reported the truth!! WOW....imagine that.
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RE: Owning MS stock
fatman65535 Updated - 13th Aug 2010
@ctunk

Actually, it depends on your investment objectives. If you are looking for long term appreciation in value; consistent dividends; or are you out to make a quick buck.

Each of those objectives carries their own criteria, and the criteria one has in mind for a company purchased for accumulation in value; may not be the same as the criteria for one that pays regular dividends. Also the age of the stockholder has an influence on the distribution of an investment portfolio. A young person should want appreciation in value; while some one nearing retirement should be looking for a steady dividend income. Its all about the mix.

Now, I have the opportunity to take a few cheap shots at MS, but I wont; because as I pointed out above, it depends on the individual investor, some are more tolerant than others.
@ctunk
These "facts" don't match reality. Its looking at past data, not the future. Even the past data I question greatly for reasons I pointed out in my first post.

You can't be serious about CSCO. I remember when they were at $80 - $100, no they are at $21. I like CSCO a lot but I wouldn't invest in them now.
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@Loverock Davidson let's just get you fitted out with these invisible clothes... there we go! now don't forget to meet me after the parade for some Kool Aid!
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Windows and Office.
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More than two tricks
Eleutherios 13th Aug 2010
@frgough
I'm not a big MS fan, but they do have fine technology in other areas that makes money for the company (SQL Server, Sharepoint, Exchange, etc.). They do have a lot of competition in those areas (unlike Windows / Office), but they are doing well all the same.
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It's not just the numbers...
bwebster@... 13th Aug 2010
...it's the trend. To recap from the article (losses are in parentheses; all numbers are in millions):

2002: ($ 909)
2003: ($ 567)
2004: $ 121
2005: $ 402 = Peak year -- it all gets worse from here
2006: $ 5
2007: ($ 732)
2008: ($ 578)
2009: ($1650)
2010: ($2350)

That's not investing; that's hemorrhaging.
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@bwebster@... on licensing of its core products, mainly due to the arrival of actual competition. I know this because we took 80% out of our most recent email system licensing. We could have and would have replaced them if they didn't come down.
The fact they tried to get so much out of us at all makes us wonder how worthwhile a vendor they are.
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And this is surprising to who???
ctunk 13th Aug 2010
Can't make a decent product and now can't make a buck. They are so far behind the times in every market that is downright laughable. How can they be that big and have that much money to piss away and never be the leader in anything?? Amazingly bad piloting of that ship.
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Forgot to file those TSP reports
Maarek 13th Aug 2010
Did they read the memo? Looks the Bobs will be making some money soon.
@Maarek

That was awesome.
Microsoft like all big corporations will stoop to anything to cut costs. Rajiv Shah from the Gates Foundation was "installed" as the new head of USAID. There he concerns himself mainly with outsourcing US computer work to Sri Lanka and Armenia. Yes, even the Gates Foundation does its best for Microsoft. At least (so far) Google appears to have refrained from such activities.
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profit and loss
trm1945 13th Aug 2010
Am I wrong or is an expected profit of ten million compared to a real profit of only six million seen as a loss of four million?
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again
sportmac 13th Aug 2010
and this is news to you?

Ballmer: we may not be first or best but we just keep coming and coming and....

translation: we'll pump money into it until you die.

this is not free market. no other company can lose the amount of money ms does in their efforts to stay "competitive". when you do not need to worry about the bottom line life is indeed good.

there should be no bing, no msn, no live, no hotmail, no....
and this company wanted to buy yahoo who actually has made money on the internet. but alas, they had to actually run a successful business, you know, with profits and loss. that really inconvenient stuff.
there should be no zune.
hail, there should be no xbox. it lost enough money to build another cern large hadron collider. another international space station.

this is no more than buying championship rings. it's not free market and it's certainly not "competition".
If you see Google, that now is flirting on doing an OS, and this OS will be intrinsically be connected to Google's cloud; I don't see how Microsoft cannot be in this space. See how Android and iPhone have killed MS Mobile. Also with XBox, that would be leaving an opening for Sony (and Nintendo?) to invade the computing screen at home and grow from there (maybe lucky for them that Sony wasn't much of a competitor encroaching on MS businesses after all)
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Well, they have the money to lose.
John Zern 13th Aug 2010
It's not liek it was one of us, where we would notice a 1000 dollars... wink
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Cry Me A River
nbahn 13th Aug 2010
So, are we now seeing the long-term result of M$'s inability to innovate? (This from the company that loudly declared -- to whomever would listen -- that they gained their market position through "innovation".)
What about Bill Gates involvement in all of this?
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Microsoft's big wins are in their business online (cloud) services, where Google doesn't can't hold a candle to their profit margins. People actually WANT TO pay Microsoft for their cloud services. You can't say the same about Google though.
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LIES!
IamBallmer 14th Aug 2010
.... it was only $5.372 billion
He's mad that his office put in a new phone PBX that uses Linux. He wanted a MS PBX but was told cost too much.

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