Between the Lines

Larry Dignan, Andrew Nusca and Rachel King

Seagate wins $525 million from Western Digital

By | November 21, 2011, 10:40am PST

Summary: While the hard drive shortage continues, Western Digital suffers another loss.

Western Digital has suffered a major hit as rival Seagate Technology wins an arbitration award worth $525 million, pending confidential arbitration action in Minnesota.

Basically, the arbitration award is based upon claims by Seagate against Western Digital and a former Seagate employee. Seagate argues that the said individual allegedly misappropriated confidential information and trade secrets.

Despite the pending award, Western Digital is denying the validity of these claims.

Western Digital president and chief executive officer John Coyne commented in a statement:

We do not believe there is any basis in law or fact for the damage award of the arbitrator. We believe the company acted properly at all times and we will vigorously challenge the award. This does not affect our ability to conduct our operations, to complete the recovery and recommencement of our Thailand operations or, subject to obtaining the required regulatory approvals, to consummate our planned acquisition of Hitachi GST.

Note that the $525 million award amount does not include prejudgment interest, which will be determined later.

Don’t forget that Western Digital must also be reeling considering the flooding in Thailand, which has led to a major hard drive shortage throughout the industry.

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Rachel King is a staff writer for ZDNet based in San Francisco.

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Rachel King

Rachel King has no business relationships, affiliations, investments, or other potential conflicts of interest relating to the content posted in this blog.

Biography

Rachel King

Rachel King is a staff writer for CBS Interactive in San Francisco. Before serving as a contributing editor at ZDNet in New York City for two years, she previously worked for The Business Insider, FastCompany.com, CNN's San Francisco bureau and the U.S. Department of State. Rachel has also written for MainStreet.com, Irish America Magazine and the New York Daily News, among others. Rachel has a B.A. in Mass Communications and History from the University of California, Berkeley and a M.S. in Journalism from Columbia University, where she served as art director for the student magazine, Plated.

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RE: Seagate wins $525 million from Western Digital
hkommedal 24th Nov
@ghrdstger
GO AWAY !
@ghrdstger
GO AWAY !
One more thing to keep the prices high . We need to make them here in the US.
@stv7575
wouldn't that make the prices even HIGHER.....
@TTPinc yes if everything we bought here in the USA was made here, the prices would be through the roof, do people think that if Seagate gets this extra money their prices will come down, no way, if Weatern can't make the demeands, Seagate will raise thier prices, screwing us that buy computers with their drives in them
@TTPinc
Not necessarily. American workers are more productive and will put out more units per worker than their foreign counterparts. Also american factories tend to be more automated and robots don't sleep. They also don't get paid (yes there is overhead to running them.). It depends. Certainly the manufacturers get tax breaks for producing overseas, but that has to stop. When i go through a store and look at products, American products aren't really any more expensive than their foreign counterparts. I'll be the American product first and Western Digital is shifting some manufacturing to the US as is Seagate. We won't get into the stupidity of building a factory on a floodplain in Thailand.
  • Flagged
@bombardj1 If everything we bought here in the USA was made here, the economy (and wages) would be through the roof, and we could afford the higher prices. In the 1950s the average manufacturing job paid enough to be able to support a family on one income, take a vacation every year, and retire securely.

If Congress taxed items from overseas an amount equal to the amount saved from paying less than minimum wage, not having environmental and safety regulations in that country, etc., then there'd be no advantage to manufacturing in an undeveloped country and products would be able to compete squarely on quality and cost (through efficiency, not through exploiting third world nations). I believe this idea was actually floated by the Nixon administration (who'd never be considered a Republican today) but never acted on.
Strange that Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, Kia, and other companies can make their products over here using US labor without a resultant increase in price.
@mcmcp@...

The wage of those factory workers is usually considerably less than those of American Car companies and the benefits are not as much. Of course some fault of the American companies falls on old ideals and practices from those in charge refusing to change and adapt to the times. Unions also play a big role and I feel that the original purpose unions were formed have lost its purpose for the most part and do not protect the worker or the job as much as they protect the union big shots.
@curtis - is that so? As far as I remember just 7 years ago France was the most productive country in the world. Now US leads, but only because of the services sector, not manufacturing, which is on par with EU. So I doubt very much that that will the case. Also, when robots work, that doesn't count for how productive people are, but rather the companies. Which is also the explanation why companies like Hyundai succeed: highly automatized factories, which when you pay for them yourself, as did Hyundai rather than loaning, can become profitable much sooner, despite slightly higher wages (S Korea is not exactly a cheap country either). Also, can you please explain how come you think HDD's are manual made? That's high tech, it's extremely automatized, human contribution past the drawing board is minimal. Why do you think they went into exotic countries in the first place? Because they don;'t need high tech people (which US has in plenty) to run the place, machines will do the stuff, so I doubt that productivity will be greatly improved using Americans. Only cost will go up. And with HDD unlike cars, the margins are very low, so sorry, I don't think you'll see any US made HDD soon.
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so how much did prices drop...
Professor8 22nd Nov
So, how much did disk drive prices drop when they shut down the factory in Oklahoma City and moved production to Red China or Indonesia or whatever?
@stv7575 I agree. All of these lawsuits and patent infringement claims get passed onto the consumer in the form of higher prices and lower-end products. I wish these companies would just focus on making a great product at a fair price and try to find ways that would benefit their consumers rather than these piddly little lawsuits that cost millions in a declining economy.

Sheesh!
@heymatthew You forget that layers need work too. I understand that we as a nation have far more lawyers than engineers. So these lawsuits are job creators.
@stv7575

I for one would be willing to pay more for something made in America that being said I now find many American made products to be of better quality and cheaper.
@saminsc I agree, I would also pay more for items made in USA.
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NT
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I ain't happy with WD anyway...
ibsteve2u 21st Nov
I can't prove it, but it is my opinion - only - that they started designing their "consumer" drives to ensure that they'd drop out of RAID sets under heavy use.

lollll...either that, or the one thing they didn't steal from Seagate was error recovery microcode (again, just my opinion).
@ibsteve2u

Seagate does this too. In fact they will void the warranty if you RAID a consumer class drive. My organization put together some NAS boxes and used Seagate drives and put them in a RAID5 configuration. Had many of them fail only for Seagate to deny the claim because evidence of a RAID configuration was found.
@bobiroc
Just to keep you buying server class drives (better warranty, BTW). Pay extra and get a drive that won't fail. WD drives have a high failure rate anyway. My seagates just run. I've had a 100% failure rate with Hitachi.
@curtis@...

So you dont't believe that products should be made differently for the primary function they are to be used for? So you would go buy a nice shiny new pick up with chrome rims intended for daily driving and light hauling and then complain when you work it to the bone and blow something and you should have purchased a Heavy Duty Pickup?

Just using the information from our warranty claims for the past 3 years sorted by part number I can honestly tell you that over 75% of the hard drive failures have been with Seagate drives in the thousands of machines I manage for my organization. The mechanical hard drive is always going to have a high failure rate due over other parts of the system that do not have moving parts and your experiences may differ.

The point is you need to buy the right tool for the job and the WD RE4 drives we have used to replace the Seagate drives that failed repeatedly in the same systems still run like a top and were worth the 20% increase in cost compared to a consumer class drive.
@bobiroc - I do not buy your logic - by YOUR logic, it is OKAY for Seagate and WD to design 'consumer' products to be LESS RELIABLE! How does THAT make sense? Certainly, part of your analogy is partially valid - more heavy-duty devices should be designed with more sturdiness BUT where do you draw the line regarding how much more/less reliable?
@bitdoctor

Your logic is the one that is flawed. I said no such thing about allowing any company to make something that is less reliable even though that is done by many companies. All I said is that when you take a product and use it for something it was NOT designed to do then reliability and performance could suffer. Many companies make products designed for general consumer use and make similar products designed for heavier use or use in harsher environments. In this case they make consumer drives intended to be installed as single or NON Raid drives in desktop computers that are used on a lighter basis and then make enterprise class drives designed to be used in servers and on a more regular basis with constant use with little rest.

That is where my everyday truck and work truck analogy comes into play. It is a shame that you could not see such an obvious example. I mean computer OEMs make consumer desktops/laptop class machines and they make business/enterprise class laptops and desktops too with the business class being a bit more expensive but designed for heavier and more frequent use and durability against abuse. Heck some of them make "toughbook" class computers to be used in harsh environments and all this comes at a cost.

Do you get it now or should I dumb it down for you a bit more?
@bitdoctor
it's the same with many products, read the terms for appliances, an example vacuum cleaner, home use, it gets used probably once a week, on soft carpet. Business use, it gets used every day, likely on hard ribbed carpet that destroys the agitator brushes. So a commercial model leaves out the bells and whistles, and is made simpler, easier to repair, the consumer model excludes commercial use.

With hard drives in a raid, the problem is they are rated in failures per some unit of storage, double the size, double the failures. In a single drive setup, a sector failure means a possible damaged file, probably with little impact on operation. In a raid, it means swapping out the drive, and with large drives, there's a reasonably good chance of a second failure while rebuilding the volume, scrapping the whole thing. You are better off if you need a large amount of storage to use more smaller drives, and more redundancy. A raid-6 for example.
WD drives have a high failure rate anyway. My seagates just run. I've had a 100% failure rate with Hitachi.

I've had the opposite, so...
@ibsteve2u

First, yes, consumer drives aren't designed for RAID. Back in the IDE days, WD drives were failing left and right in RAID, so they decided to certify their business drives in a "RAID Edition" series. Usually most "Enterprise SATA" drives are capable of RAID but it's best to check with the vendor.

Now here's the big thing about defects:

It isn't rocket science how manufacturers come up with warranties. When they produce a lot of one product (a factory "lot", not "many", although it means pretty much the same thing....semantics) they do QA (quality assurance) testing. This is also something that many consumers don't believe. QA testing is all about finding out how many defects are produced in a given lot. This is where it gets interesting though. You see, mass volume manufacturers can't test every unit out of a lot of, say, 10,000. Instead, they might pull maybe one in every hundred off the assembly line, test it, and continue. Out of that x # of units, so many are going to come back defective. They estimate that the original percentage is representative of the whole, just like how the TV Neilson ratings estimate the numbers of TV watchers based on a much smaller model.

If the defect rate is abnormally high, then that entire lot will often carry a shorter warranty because they expect failures. In the case of products that have multiple distribution channels, some channels have a lesser warranty than others. OEM hard drives, for instance. It used to be that OEM drives only carried a 1 year warranty and retail carried more. Then it was the other way around. Now they're approximately even, although external drives still get the shaft (which is why you shouldn't buy an external drive during these flood prices).

Here's a good example of how warranties are calculated though: look at Seagate's problems over the last few years with firmware. Only a few years ago they touted a 5 year warranty across the board, then when they started having mass failings of drives they reduced it to 3. This year, it's now only 2 years. That's not a coincidence. What's happening is the price to bear the warranty service is costing them too much because of the sheer number of defects.

Here's another fact: computer makers pay far less for their parts than you or I buying retail-boxed components. Why? They buy in bulk, but they also buy parts with higher defect rates. Why you think they only cover systems for 1 year? Don't you think that if they got parts that had the same warranty coverage as the retail channel that the parts would be reliable enough for them to cover the entire system for the same length of warranty that the components had?

So there's a lesson here too: when you build a system yourself with retail components with more than a 1 year warranty, it's actually going to be more reliable, and the warranty is proof of that. When you buy a name brand computer it's not statistically going to be as reliable, and an extended warranty is just insurance to cover failures. It isn't any more reliable just because you pay extra to extend that 1 year warranty.
@Joe_Raby Very good analogy.
What was the trade secret that the guy took from Seagate to Western Digital? How to make crappy drives that fail repeatedly??

In the past 5 years I have seen more drives from Seagate fail than any of the other brands combined. When we have one of our nearly 3000 computers come up with a possible hard drive failure we can almost guarantee that it will be a seagate.
@bobiroc It's not just Seagate drives that are dying my friend, it seems like everyone is having trouble building reliable hard drives recently.
@mdshann@...

I still see more seagate failures overall using the systems in my environment and what comes across my workbench in my side jobs.
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Somehow it seems product quality is a global problem. Hmmm, anyone teaching pride in workmanship these days?
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@bobiroc

But it was probably the same d1ckh3ad that sold those incomplete plans to that capacitor company that all the motherboard makers bought from at a discount in the early 2000's
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RE: Seagate wins $525 million from Western Digital
neil.postlethwaite@... 21st Nov
Sound like more patent/trademark/process bollocks.

You'll not be able to employ anyone with any relevant industry experience next, as they might use that at their next job.

Insanity.
Really sad, given the fact all I use is WD. Seagate drives don't go into anything I build.
Do I see price fixing here? Perhaps they should be reading the R.I.C.O Act.
Maybe now Seagate has money to design simple external drive properly? Just take a look at their line of goflex drives. They spontaneously disconnect, or turn themselves on when not connected to computer. Support is clueless and has been clueless for more than a year. Very disappointing.
How about it offshore manufacturing is finally starting to bite American business in the Butt? YOu all went offshore claiming it was cheaper. Now your offshore plant is flooded, do you have anything left in North American Production facilities?
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Why in Minnesota ?
Strange, I find more failures with WD than Seagate. I have four computers and the only ones with failures are the ones with Caviar drives. No problems with Seagate drives. BTW, my seagates are old enough that they came with lifetime warranties if you can remember that far back.
@dgkindred
sample size = 4
I know when I built a FreeNAS server earlier this year, I purchased a mix of Hitachi 2TB and Seagate 2TB SATA drives for it. One of the Seagates developed "SMART" errors after only a week or two of operation. When I looked into it further, the errors were complaining about the drive having to move too many blocks to spare blocks to recover bad sectors, so basically, a defective drive from the start.

The Hitachis have all run flawlessly so far, but honestly, I haven't owned this thing long enough to use that as strong evidence their drives are "better" than others.

I do also have a 1TB Maxtor "OneTouch" (made by Seagate) external firewire 400/USB drive on my Mac Pro tower that started randomly disconnecting and refusing to spin up. Another bad Seagate drive ....

So I'm not happy w/Seagate right now, though this COULD just be attributed to luck of the draw.
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Too bad, because Seagate makes crappy HDD's and WD make good ones.
I have been using hard disks before Seagate and WD were in existence. I first drive was a 5 meg Winchester drive and you don't want to know the cost. After the Winchester drive were Stugart (SP) which lead to Seagate. I have had good luck with Seagate and Wd drives. I have had 100% failure rate with Hitachi drives. I was service mgr for a large computer firm and we handled repairs on hundreds of firms computers. To keep in some meaningful tone, I remember a 512 meg drive ran over $500 which was close to 50% of the average workers pay, something like $2,500 now instead of $90 for a 2 tet drive. Remember labor costs and anti-business environment drove manufacturing companies out of the US. A lot of people forget that if a company doesn't make money, it disappears and stockholders (common working people lose money and part of their retirement.) Just look at California, the business environment has gotten very anti-business and you are seeing a mass movement of people and business' out of the state.
I have had my fair share of problems with Western Digital drives that have FAILED. Western Digital was useless in the department of RECOVERY of information, which when done by an outside company can run a consumer into thousands of dollars to have it done. The most Western offered, was to send me a new drive if I sent them the old. Uh...I don't think so, because I have very important personal data (taxes, credit card and and social security number info on that drive. Not to mention I have ordered products and therefore my credit card info and all are on it. I contacted them about what becomes of the drive when I return it, they claimed it would be examined and the examination protocol would DELETE all information. RIIIIIIGHT. I have purchased refurbished drives before where I was able to obtain information from the previous owner from it, so sending in my drive for a replacement (which the replacement is a REFURBISHED DRIVE not a new one) is not happening.

Nonetheless the flooding in Thailand and the supposed shortage is poor business practice. Thailand did not just start flooding...IT HAS ALWAYS FLOODED IN THE SAME AREA. Western Digital like too many other companies is looking for SLAVE LABOR AND WAGES and found it in Thailand. Those drives and all other Western Digital paraphernalia can be made in america for the same price with no problem...it is corporate GREED that brought its move to Thailand in the first place. For those of you who keep screaming about prices going through the roof, you're pretty mindless. The drives are pretty much automatically produced as it is a delicate process of which no hands or dust can be involved, so a automated factory can be built in america just as easy as it has been built in Thailand...you're just offering excuses to continue the slave labor system.

So far as the acquisition of Seagate? Western Digital needs to perfect its own products first, before it goes on to ruin another company's products as well. Western Digital is making dozens of different versions of drives for whatever reason. Truth is a company only needs one type of drive that comes in different capacities. Make the BEST drive and perfect it as best as can be so there is no continuous FAILURES or compatibility issues and you're fine. Making a hundred different drives with a hundred different failure issues is NOT good for business. My PCB board failed on my drive and was/is the crux of the issue with WD drives.

WD I hope you are listening and reading my response.
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@Some of the above contributors: please bear in mind that this is an international site.
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Easier solution ...
pmshah@... 22nd Nov
I really wonder at the ignorance of some of the readers on this forum.

When Seagate acquired Conner they inherited the Singapore plant. When WD acquired Quantum they inherited the Thailand plant. Does anybody think that the management of these companies have NOT done detailed studies about TOTAL cost of production? Except in cases such as extracting aluminum from bauxite where extremely high % of energy cost is involved, it is ALWAYS the peripheral cost as a % of component/raw material cost. In the past I have seen this to be as high as 150% for US made product where as it is more like 20 to 30 % for south Asian countries. As a matter of fact I have even seen situations where fully finished product is sole - delivered in US - as a price lower than the raw material cost in US.

There is a mention of a person finding US made products being sold at par with the imported variety. He saw the US made product on the shelf ONLY because it was available at that price. Very likely if he was to go back to that very same shop he won't find it again.

BTW I have seen photographs of a Panasonic hard disk manufacturing facility in Japan. Surprised? I believe they were one time suppliers to Quantum. On a huge factory floor which maintained class 100 clean air environment, required for the hermetically sealed drives. The workers were all dressed in bio hazard like suits. Everything was automatic. I don't believe having that factory in US could increase productivity one bit without huge increase in add on cost to the wages.

Then of course there is avarice. I saw a TV program a while ago. The interviewer was talking to the owner of a company selling some so called branded caps. He openly admitted that he was paying $ 0.18 oer price and selling them for around $ 22.00. There , you have it.
Actually high prices on drives is just a nudge toward the shift to Solid State drives... while drives that are becoming obsolete go UP in price, memory speeds and prices fall. I will presonally be glad of the day drive failure is a thing of the past. I have SERVERS to support here!
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high tariffs were tried...
Professor8 22nd Nov
"If Congress taxed items from overseas an amount equal to the amount saved from paying less than minimum wage, not having environmental and safety regulations in that country, etc., then" the other countries would increase their average import tariffs from 48% of value (compared with the 2% to 4% average tariff on goods imported into the USA) to 100% or 200% of value, for things we ship from the USA to there. The corn and rice and beet and soybean and oat farmers, along with manufacturing in the USA would take a severe hit. But raising US tariffs to 9% until they agree to lower theirs, with off-sets for the VAT kick-backs and telling WTO to go to the hot hockey-sticks place might be reasonable.

OTOH, when we raised our tariffs significantly back in 1930 other countries retaliated and it was bad all around.
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Prices are already through the roof
Laraine Anne Barker 22nd Nov
and unfortunately I didn't find out about the shortage until it was too late. I ordered a Samsung F3 1tb at just over $100 (breathing a sigh of relief that at least one drive hadn't started to climb in price) only to be told it wasn't available for this price any more and supplier forgot to change the prices, or some such excuse, so I've got my fingers crossed that my 5- and 3-year-old drives don't go down before the prices become more reasonable. Grr!

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