Between the Lines

Larry Dignan, Andrew Nusca and Rachel King

Tech racism? Will dark-skinned gamers have trouble with Kinect's facial recognition?

By | November 4, 2010, 11:37am PDT

Summary: updated below: Uh-oh. Some early reports are surfacing that Kinect, the controller-free experience for Microsoft’s XBox 360, is having trouble recognizing dark-skinned players. A post on GameSpot’s blog this week reported that at least “two dark-skinned GameSpot employees” had trouble getting the facial recognition feature to work. Sure, you could maybe blame it on lighting or webcam [...]

updated below:

Uh-oh. Some early reports are surfacing that Kinect, the controller-free experience for Microsoft’s XBox 360, is having trouble recognizing dark-skinned players.

A post on GameSpot’s blog this week reported that at least “two dark-skinned GameSpot employees” had trouble getting the facial recognition feature to work. Sure, you could maybe blame it on lighting or webcam calibration or something else - but that’s really something that should have been tested, re-tested and resolved before the release of Kinect today.

Gallery: Xbox 360 Kinect takes the controller from video gamers

The system reportedly had no trouble recognizing light-skinned people.

It’s unclear how widespread the problem is - if, in fact, it’s a problem at all. For all we know, this was an isolated incident. But it does cause some eyebrow-raising after an embarrassing YouTube video (below) surfaced last year of a white woman and an African-American man putting the facial recognition technology on an HP Media Smart computer to the test.

The technology had no problem recognizing the woman - but the system would not respond to the man.

It’s too early to start labeling Kinect as racist - but it will be interesting to see if this becomes a widespread problem as consumers start to buy it. Microsoft has said it expects to ship about 5 million units by the end of the year.

update: Consumer Reports, in its own blog post today, debunks this problem. It writes:

Here’s what we found: The log-in problem is related to low-level lighting and not directly to players’ skin color. Like the HP webcam, the Kinect camera needs enough light and contrast to determine features in a person’s face before it can perform software recognition and log someone into the game console automatically.

Essentially, the Kinect recognized both players at light levels typically used in living rooms at night and failed to recognize both players when the lights were turned down lower. So far, we did not experience any instance where one player was recognized and the other wasn’t under the same lighting conditions.

This problem didn’t prevent anyone who was affected from playing Kinect games, since it can “see” and track players’ bodies and motions using a built-in infrared lighting system.

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Sam has been a technology and business blogger for more than 18 years.

Disclosure

Sam Diaz

Sam Diaz has nothing to disclose.

Biography

Sam Diaz

Sam has been a technology and business blogger, reporter and editor at ZDNet, the Washington Post, San Jose Mercury News and Fresno Bee for more than 18 years. He's a member of the National Association of Hispanic Journalists and a graduate of California State University, Fresno.

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This comes as no surprise to me
Pete "athynz" Athens 5th Nov 2010
@NonZealot as the blogosphere went nuts over the issues with AT&T and iPhone a while back over the unverified reports of one person who had reception issues with his iPhone and went to the Apple store...

It all in what FUD can get more clicks.
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Idiot posts
sackbut 4th Nov 2010
like this are the reason race relations are going backward, not forward. In a couple of words - you are a sick $0b.
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this is actually a real problem...
doctorSpoc 4th Nov 2010
@sackbut - lots of automated camera tech has contrast set up for people with lighter skin.. that's just a fact.. these guys f'd up... they forgot that a good portion of the population is going to require different contrasts setting in order for the software to work and the didn't include it in their implementation.. it's a bug like any other.. and a big one.. fix it!
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Where is your proof?
NonZealot 4th Nov 2010
@doctorSpoc
they forgot that a good portion of the population is going to require different contrasts setting in order for the software to work and the didn't include it in their implementation.. it's a bug like any other.. and a big one.. fix it!

And you base this opinion on:
at least ?two dark-skinned GameSpot employees? had trouble getting the facial recognition feature to work

Huh. Funny, you were a huge defender of all the iPhone-gates because they only affected hundreds or thousands of people yet here you are jumping with joy because Kinect didn't work for at least 2 people?

Cue the double standards...
@doctorSpoc

The technical aspect of the blog post is one thing. The accusation of racism is another. I noticed you didn't have the guts to defend such bu11$hit.
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do you people have no sense of humour at all??
doctorSpoc Updated - 4th Nov 2010
@sackbut ..what is wrong with you?? you can't detect sarcasm when you hear it??

the guy on the video is having some fun at the expense of HP who f'd up their product by not making some obvious consideration for a portion of their customer base.. those of colour.. that's it.. you honestly think the guy is really calling HP racist?? get a grip man.. and a sense of frick'n humour.. sheesh!!
@sackbut

How do you flag blogs as unacceptable? Where's the dislike button?

Of course Sam is no journalist, but beating this up from a post on another blog is a new low.

Looks like MS has another best seller, judging by the quality of the FUD.
I expect at least 10 more anti-Kinect articles, each of them describing serious issues being faced by 1 or 2 people.

Hey, you guys gotta keep the Apple marketing department happy!
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What does this have to do with Apple??
Snooki_smoosh_smoosh 4th Nov 2010
@NonZealot... Oh I know why, it had nothing to do with Apple, so to inject yourself into the conversation you blame it on Apple's marketing department. You truly are a spamming troll.
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And the blogosphere IS going nuts
NonZealot 4th Nov 2010
http://www.google.com/search?q=kinect+facial+recognition

What do we get? Most of the results are from a ton of different sites all reporting the same thing: Kinect has problems with facial recognition of dark skinned people. All of this based on 1 report by Gamespot of 2 darkskinned people. 1 report. 2 people. 50 articles blasting Kinect for being racist.

What I especially loved was this though:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/pcworld/20101104/tc_pcworld/ismicrosoftskinectracist
A third dark-skinned reviewer had no problems getting his face recognized by Kinect's cameras

Yeah. Uh huh.

My prediction was right on. I knew that the blogosphere was going to have a field day on this one and they did. Remember folks, all of this from 1 report of 2 people.
@NonZealot You gotta love these blog posts that have a question as the headline. Real weasely stuff. On top of that, most of them couldn't even bother to actually find a dark-skinned person to try this out for themselves on a Kinect. That would've actually been useful, but no, it's way easier to pile on an unsubstantiated story with a link-bait headline.
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This comes as no surprise to me
Pete "athynz" Athens 5th Nov 2010
@NonZealot as the blogosphere went nuts over the issues with AT&T and iPhone a while back over the unverified reports of one person who had reception issues with his iPhone and went to the Apple store...

It all in what FUD can get more clicks.
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pobrecito Zeal0t
LionSaba 4th Nov 2010
@Zeal0t u make me laugh at you .. many people poited that you are on M$ payroll.. now u proved it ..
i dont know why some people suffer from the Apple-psyco-Complex.. Focus on your problems ... Apple and its Consumers are happy together.
pss one thing.. the Era of Apple vs M$ is already out.. apple already won .. now the Era of Apple VS ALL OTHERS has just started.. be cause in the Market there's only two :
1-Apple
2-The Others
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@abbasito Apple Won ? Where ? Do you've figures ? Android is more popular than iOS. More people tend to develop app's for Android & WP7, not iPhone. iOS market share in US decreased last Qtr. i.e. -0.4%. Apple TV is still hobby for Jobs. Mac OS prices are slashed day by day. Mac Mini prices are slashed, to stay alive. iPhone 4 with Antena & Glassgate issues.

Where in the world you're for the last 3-6months...? Wen't to Antartica and came back yesteray....?
@jinishans so u belong to the others.. hahha i just cited apple.. you cited mM$ google (htc, motorola,samsung...).. u just missed Adidas and FIAT lol
isn't your post a big proof of Apple vs all the others ??
u cited apple's antenna's problem.. well if cite all the others u defend in vain i need maybe a DVD of 4.7 gb full of text not only a 1000 pages encyclopedia..
man u need to see a Doctor.. or at least get some Courses.. marijuana may help u to sleep.
man read the Stocks, read 'em damn !
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Touche!
GoPower 4th Nov 2010
But the guy has a problem, and he obviously doesn't seek help.
@abbasito
@GoPower maybe if we seek in Potatoes vs tomatoes forums u'll find him defending M$
the Guy really needs to sleep.. marijuana may help him to hahaaa
@rtk
PS While you are at it, care to counter a single thing John Zern wrote? The fact that you didn't when you had the chance suggests that you can't. Or you would have. But you didn't. So you probably can't.

well if the things he mention actually had some relevance to anything then maybe i might... dispute this.. the sky is blue.. sometimes red in the morning's and evenings.. so what?

between 3rd and 4th quarter.. the market for iPhones was pretty much frozen with confirmation from the Gizmodo leak that iPhone 4 was coming.. who in their right mind would buy a 3GS knowing that the 4th gen was right around the corner

apple abandon the server market.. irrelevant at this point.. on the desktop.. Apple has moved into double digits in computers in the US.. they sell 11% and take 35% of the profits.. they make more money than anyone else with 11% market share.. that's something to be ashamed of.. again like with the android example you take all the windows PC manufactures together and compare that to Apple.. that doesn't make any sense.. MS doesn't make computers... take apple compared to any individual PC company and apple kicks their butt in profits.. that's what matters.. that's what's relevant.. Zern's comments are about as relevant as the price of tea in china.. quite plainly.. his comments are idiotic.. have nothing to do with anything..

with iPad.. compared to the initial estimates of what iPad was 'supposed' to sell... according to the half-wit moron who said it was going to crash and burn and their was no use for it.. it has been an astronomical success.. look at what has come in terms of competition since... nothing.. smallish (in order to cost reduce and prop-up battery life), expensive shlock with no appropriate software to run on it BS.. apple owns this market at 95% market share.. will have free rain for another complete cycle as there are no competitors in the wings in spite of 9mth to do something.. what Apple has done by designing it's own SoC, battery life.. the competitors are scrambling.. they can't match that tech at that price point.. we see that now.. it's as plain as day..

anyway, i'm done... keep drinking the hateraid or whatever it is that M$ shills drink.. you guys are pretty entertaining though.. question: as ridiculous as your post are.. do you guys actually believe the bs you write here? no one could be that out of touch to actually think this stuff you're writing actually makes any kind of sense right?
didn't you notice that growth for iPhone where stagnent from 3rd to 4th quarter? Didn't you notice that Apple's desktop and server share is so much smaller then Microsofts? didn't you notice that iPad sold less then originally estimated? didn't you notice that AppleTv is still considered "a hobby"

Well, we'll let you go on that as it appears you have a problem spelling, so maybe you have problems reading too.

I mean, trolls aren't really known for their intelligence... happy
@John Zern - and almost the same profit.. that Apple has a larger market capitalization that MS... that MS is on a slow slightly upward trajectory and Apple's is skyrocketing.. Apple just made more money in a quarter than google makes in a year.. you count all android phones together but what your saying is that apple.. alone, by itself sells as just slightly less phones than: HTC, Samsung, etc.. etc all the android manufactures put together.. remember they are all different companies.. MS is fast becoming a marginalized company looking for some relevance in this new world that has appeared in the last couple of year.. two years ago would you have thought that apple would be pulling in $5-6B more revenue that MS??

you guys are nut.. the world has changed... deal with it!
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Funniest post of the day
NonZealot 4th Nov 2010
MS is fast becoming a marginalized company looking for some relevance

Making more profits than Apple, their OS product still installed on 90%+ of all computers in the world and their latest OS sold more in a year than Apple has sold in a lifetime: yeah... very marginalized.

Apple is obviously doing well financially but to even suggest that MS isn't also doing well betrays you as suffering massively from the effects of Jobs' RDF.

Why is it so important for you zealots that MS fails? Why can't you be happy with Apple's amazing success?

PS While you are at it, care to counter a single thing John Zern wrote? The fact that you didn't when you had the chance suggests that you can't. Or you would have. But you didn't. So you probably can't. happy
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I am sorry to disapoint you, Doctor Spoc
Mister Spock 4th Nov 2010
But when is it that while one company's stock is currently "skyrocketing" while the other's profit continue to steadily climb make the second company irrelavent?

Have you forgetten the many Wall Street institutions whose stock was skyrocketing, that are now worthless, while those that where performing at a steady rate remained relativelly untouched?

Mr Zern told no lies, so how is it that all you can see is what investors have done in the past, as opposed to the fact presented you?

You are the "nut" sir, as much has changed, but you can not see that which is still changing

plain
It?s unclear how widespread the problem is - if, in fact, it?s a problem at all. For all we know, this was an isolated incident.

So its not a problem at all, and may be an isolated incident but you and ZDNet want to turn it into a problem? Talk about crappy journalist skills. You really should wait and see what the root cause of this issue is first before writing about it and labeling things as rascist.
@Loverock Davidson... Because it's not journalism, it's opinion. There's very little real journalism left, especially on the internet.
this is ridiculous. get a life and report on real news.
should get pulled immediately.

Shame you on ZDNET!!!!
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A new low here
oncall 4th Nov 2010
Suggesting a technical glitch, even if it is real, is somehow equivalent to "racism". WOW, just wow. I'm actually embarrassed for ZDNET allowing this drivel to even be posted.
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I guess the article is saying that the Kinect consciously made the decision it wasn't going to work for dark skin people.
Shame on it!

To tell the truth, I'm sure they tested it with people of all shapes, sizes, and skin colors, so it could be an odd situation.

Or maybe they're actually Sony employees trying to get it pulled from the market as it's "unfair to dark skinned people"? wink
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Correct
oncall Updated - 4th Nov 2010
@John Zern

It would mainly count as racism if the designers/programmers consciously decided to make the device not work, or ignore an obvious and correctable technical limitation, for dark skinned people, i.e. the designers were racists themselves.
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Racism is something that happens in a society when a race gets a systematic disadvantage due to the color of its skin. Some of it is a conscious choice from some people, and some of it is just ignorance or lack of thought.

What I understood from the article is that 2 dark-skinned people didn't get recognized by Kinect and the fact whether Microsoft had thought to do the testing on people other than white was raised (i.e. did they, by sheer lack of thought, create a system that discriminates against anybody who isn't pale-skinned).

Another lack-of-thought discrimination example is when game designers only design males, especially when heroes are soldiers (once in fighting uniform, you don't really see the physical differences between men and women). The only change they'd need to make would be to throw in a female pronoun here and there. Still, they don't do it. Reason: it would take extra resources! Guess what, if you had only female soldiers instead of male (leaving the rest of the game as is: dialogues, gameplay, etc.), most game designers would expand the resources to add a man here and there (and change the dialogues accordingly). It's not a conscious choice as in "Let's discriminate against women!" or "Let's be sexist!", it's a choice of "Meh, we did the default human already (i.e. the man), we can't bother ourselves to do the "other" type of human (i.e. women, never mind that there are actually slightly more women than men on Earth (51-49, I think), which gives us a better argument for being the "default" human instead of the men)." They don't set out with the goal of making a sexist choice, they make a design choice that they don't realize is sexist.

Now, going back to the article above, since CR says that, under normal lighting conditions, there's no problem, I guess the 2 people mentioned might be the exception that confirms the rule. If we see reports of darker-skinned people not being recognized flooding in, then more questions should be asked to MS about their product. Until then, wait and see is the best approach (oh, and taking any sensational word such as "racism" with a grain of salt when the sample size is 2 is a good idea too).
Facial recognition algorithms uses colour contrast to detect facial characteristics, and so, the software developers must mind the differences between light and dark skins... so yes, having such faulty behaviour is a bug, a big fat bug !
If this glitch is confirmed, it should be fixed !
you should have looked it up before you used it. "IF" it has trouble recognizing facial features or changes on darker complected skin would you guess that was not known/tested? Or would you guess that's because for some reason it was technially harder? Or would you ask before writing anything. There are lots of people of all races at Microsoft. And are you making the ridiculous suggestion that if it really did have difficulty with darker complections and they determined that it would take months more time and millions of more invested that they should not release as is now and let the millions of people it does work for enjoy it as is while they work on enhancing it?

I have to agree with the previous poster who noted that it's this kind of crap of baselessly throwing the race card at everything that's what's really doing the damage to great strides we've made.
I bet BestBuy will recognize any Black person that tries to sneak out of the store with one.
I've seen the way white people dance. Maybe its just the games where you have to dance.
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This whole thing smacks of fraud
sackbut 4th Nov 2010
The implication is that the video is supposedly taken via web cam while the software is supposed to be doing its thing.

Anyone but me notice that all the letters on their name badges are reversed and all the letters on the signs in the store are also reversed. If this is being done with a mirror involved, does it prove ANYTHING except that Sam Diaz is a racist.
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I notice
sackbut Updated - 4th Nov 2010
Sam Diaz has completely avoided responding to any of these criricisms. No guts, huh, Sam?
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like us Vulcans in the same manner?
plain

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