Between the Lines

Larry Dignan, Andrew Nusca and Rachel King

Wikipedia losing contributors: Fatal flaw, the community editors?

By | August 4, 2011, 5:53pm PDT

Summary: Wikipedia founder Jimmy Wales admits that the world’s fifth most visited website is losing contributors, partly down to the complexity of the site. Others cite poor community engagement.

Wikipedia, the world’s largest online encyclopedia, is struggling to maintain the contributors which make the site what it is, said founder Jimmy Wales on Thursday.

Criticised over the years for its lack of community focus — even though the site is community run and led by thousands of volunteers and contributors — its current problem is with its complex machinery of templates, editing and strict editorial guidance.

Scrambling to make the editorial process simpler and easier for the general population to engage with, speaking to the Associated Press, Wales described some of the setbacks that Wikipedia has to deal with to evolve.

With over 3 million entries, the site’s articles are subject to daily pranks, misinformation and mass defacing of articles.

Wales spoke of contributors leaving as one of the main issues. “We are not replenishing our ranks”.

At 90,000 active contributors by March, the goal is to attain another 5,000 by next June.

Speaking about its contributor base, the typical profile appears to be a “26-year-old geeky male”, while others leave as there is a short supply of further articles to add.

But as the fifth most visited site on the web, and nearly a decade old, it is struggling to maintain its community effort with so many contributors are leaving.

Wales acknowledges the issues with Wikipedia from a founders’ perspective, yet others who actively engage with the site see other barriers.

Speaking to ZDNet’s senior technology editor, Jason Perlow, for which has his own Wikipedia entry, resonated similar feelings earlier with me on the phone in regards to Wikipedia’s fundamental issues.

“Wikipedia appears to have a strange undefined organisational structure, or lack thereof. It seems to be run by some Mad Max-like community stuck in the middle of the desert. Contributors have to submit to many editors that follow meticulously baroque editorial guidelines, which are imposed in an inconsistent fashion.”

He went on to explain that the site in its very essence is user unfriendly. Media uploads can be one of the major setbacks to new Wikipedians, partly for the complex licenses on offer and the lack of understanding around which images can be used for which purpose.

Perlow described how not only is the wiki-syntax old and outdated, along with the further complexity of the site’s features and editorial processes, the community spirit could be the site’s fatal flaw.

“Wikpedia is not a community conducive to creating content. The site is open to abuse. The number of times I have had to edit my own Wikipedia page because of some blatant libel, I lose count. The site is probably edited by 14-year-olds.”

For users who have something they want to say or write, seem to need to be part of a niche crowd — difficult to get in to from the word go; while others with their own entries are deterred due to the abusive edits they often have to endure.

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Topics

Zack Whittaker, a criminologist who studied at the University of Kent, Canterbury, is a journalist, writer and broadcaster.

Disclosure

Zack Whittaker

I worked briefly with Microsoft UK in 2006 but no longer have any connection with the company. Regardless, I remain impartial and unbiased in my views.

I don't hold any stock or shares, investments or industrial secrets in any company, but have signed confidentiality agreements with a number of UK and U.S. organisations, whose names I am not at liberty to disclose.

I was involved with Kent Union, the University of Kent's student union, undertaking voluntary, non-salaried, elected positions between early 2009 and mid-2010.

No other company, body, government department, non-governmental organisation or third sector organisation employs me or pays me a salary in any capacity whatsoever.

As a freelance journalist, whenever expenses are given and taken by a company that is not CBS Interactive, these will be disclosed in each relevant post to ensure transparency.

I currently work with a UK law enforcement unit, but this is an entirely separate position which bears no connection to other work.

(Updated: 23rd October 2011)

Biography

Zack Whittaker

Zack Whittaker, criminologist who studied at the University of Kent, UK, is a journalist, writer and broadcaster.

After studying criminology at university, though still in his early-20's, he has already had a series unconventional work and voluntary positions. He has worked with researchers studying neurological illnesses like Tourette's syndrome (which he suffers from), has given lectures on the nature of disabilities in the public community, and occasionally ends up speaking on television and radio discussing the events of the day.

He first had academic work published at the age of 22, then still an undergraduate, and has been cited by a wide range of publications: from CNN, the Huffington Post, AllThingsDigital, The Atlantic Wire and CBS News.

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RE: Wikipedia losing contributors: Fatal flaw, the community editors?
bunker buster 8th Aug
Majority rule is not a way to turn a lie into fact.

And you're probably one of those nutjob a$$holes they were talking about up above.
Another part is due to the contributors themselves. I have seen discussion pages where people fight over what should and should not appear on a page, even if it has information to back the claim/information.

The way it seems to determine whether the content is added is by an editing war, and whoever gives up first loses -- of course.

It's almost as if there needs to be another portal to allow users to vote on what should be approved like a poll to prevent such wars. Though then we will start seeing sites selling votes for such stuff.

But maybe what I am saying is no longer correct, as it has been a long time since I have paid attention to the discussion pages.
@ian.aldrighetti No, this is pretty accurate. Just go take a look at all the wackjobs who edit conspiracy-theory articles.
@RvLeshrac: ... visitor's editions that correct blatant nonsense, but which is taste of 'elite' people, almost always get blindly deleted.

Since usual visitors do not have this habit of sitting on certain pages and tracking its changes, they give up easily, the quality of Wikipedia does not grow much.
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only to have them repeatedly removed by other contributors citing some rule I've demonstrated the very same contributors break in other posts.

It's dominated by a few with plenty of time on their hands and an agenda to advance. In the end we move on, and wikipedia is what it's become!
@Richard Flude

I stopped contributing and donating to Wikipedia because of retarded editors.
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@Richard Flude
Absolutely dead on. Those who know how to research, document, etc., get tired of idiots with no research skills hacking things up. In several cases I took entire articles I started and set them up as independent websites to avoid all the edits.
@Richard Flude

Exactly what I've found. I don't bother editing wikipedia anymore because nothing is applied consistently, Admins act like antisocial a-holes, and there's constant fighting over every topic no matter how irrelevant.

Plus wikipedia is designed to be hugely bureaucratic. I suppose it needs to be a bit bureaucratic, but there's a task force for everything, every article falls under several categories under the authority of many different admins, has 3 different types of ratings, etc. Not only that the noteworthiness guidelines are abused to delete articles that people disagree with. It almost seems like all you need to do to get an article deleted is question its noteworthiness, the admins are more than willing to agree to do it to anything regardless of whether they understand the topic.

When I edited wikipedia I was trying to give back. Never have I encountered such a thankless thing as editing wikipedia. You get screamed at online and attacked personally no matter what you write.
@Richard Flude

Right on. I contributed to wikipedia when it was new and it wasn't such a nightmare.

Fast forward 8 or so years. My brother (a history professor who has taught american history at the university level) tried to contribute to an article about a well-known american history book where he merely wanted to point out a few criticisms of that book (and he meticulously cited his sources). He wrote it in an academic manner (that is, not angry or bitter, just stating the fact that there is a genuine controversy among scholars about some of the interpretations in the book), and it kept getting deleted by some jackass editor with a political axe to grind. It was absolutely ridiculous. Here is a history professor who teaches american history at university, is well regarded in his field, and has many published articles in history journals. All he wanted to do was point out the FACT that there was some controversy to certain claims (with citations to back it up) and some jackass politically-motivated thug editor wouldn't let his contribution stay.

Needless to say, my brother (very learned and not politically extreme - about as moderate as they come) hasn't tried to contribute anything to wikipedia since.
@Richard Flude Advance in what way?
@Richard Flude
I agree. The last time I contributed several paragraphs of information, it was just deleted without comment. That's enough for me.
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No voting
sissy sue Updated - 5th Aug
@ian.aldrighetti
A majority voting on information doesn't necessarily mean that the information will be more correct.
Majority rule is not a way to turn a lie into fact.
  • Flagged
@sissy sue Absolutely true. Unfortunately, it is one of the deeply imbedded myths of the American tribe that the people have a deep wisdom the elites do not, and that the majority is, if not always compeletely right, at least pretty close to right most of the time.

How people could continue to believe this after seeing what their elected 'representatives' did this last month in Congress is absolutely beyond me.
wink

Be clear.
  • Flagged
Majority rule is not a way to turn a lie into fact.

And you're probably one of those nutjob a$$holes they were talking about up above.
@ian.aldrighetti What you say sounds credible for some pages. Others have a very different problem: nobody is updating the article itself based on the discussion, both being very out of date.
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Wikipedia censored
Pu-239 4th Aug
Wikipedia is the most censored site. You can't add anything what might upset the Elite, Government, UN, Pope, Democracy export etc.
@Pu-239 And Jason Perlow! Don't forget Jason Perlow.
Why am i not surprised I used to be an editor on Wikipedia even earned Badges and stuff but after a while i just got annoyed Wikipedia has three core principles or guides if you want to call it that and you would follow the principles to the T and some stupid 14 year old kids who have no idea concerning the principles would remove your info , they would ask friends to join with them so when you argue they make it look like most people on the discussion page agreed with them with actually showing you why or if they did show you why it didn't fall under the guidelines.
@bxbbrian And you were an editor? That sentence paragraph has no punctuation.
I just got annoyed an just left the site altogether, they should have an age limit for joining
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Read this article in English
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Thai_political_protests

Now read the Google translation of the article from Thai and you see it's much more 'Army set up protection boundary' a more cuddly version, but still tells basically the same story.

Also not censored in Thailand, Thai's can read it, which is more than can be said for the YouTube footage which is largely blocked.
If they'd just screen the editors for Asperger's Syndrome and Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder, they'd be ok... other than an initial lack of any editors left, of course.
@jgm@... Exactly. It's the aspies and OCD who ruin it for everyone else. Have you ever read the article on asperger's on wikipedia? It's pretty funny, it actually makes it sound like you WANT aspergers.
"Perlow described how not only is the wiki-syntax old and outdated . . ."

Agreed. I'm surprised they never bothered to switch to better editing tools - in particular, we know that WYSIWYG is possible with HTML/JavaScript. Yet they are still stuck on the old syntax? Why?

I never really was fond of the editing process. Sure, the principle is that vandalism can be easily reversed - but, nevertheless, vandalism still exists, ans still remains an issue.

I also found some of their policies to be odd, such as no original research. In the end, the Wikipedia's way of doing things just didn't make sense. And the number of policies is increasing to the point where it's difficult to even do much editing anyways.

So yeah - Not terribly fond of editing the Wikipedia, so I don't do it anymore.
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With a more community, moderated, open approach and greater use of multimedia. Wikipedia lacks the richness of a modern Internet.
I volunteer at a special interest library that was mentioned in a Wikipedia article, with an incorrect adjective (referencing a small part of the collection) and an incomplete list of activities. I changed the adjective to be more correct, and added one word to the list of activities. My edits were removed because I have a connection to the library!

The person who removed my edits was the author of the article, a man who had written hundreds of specialty articles on motorcycles, but who know nothing about the subject matter of the library.

I've been editing articles on Wikipedia since 2007, but that was the last straw. I'm out of there.
The unwillingness to keep up with the times is one obstacle. Almost every news network now posts to YouTube, yet YouTube recordings of newscasts aren't considered "valid." Only print media counts. This is an electronic encyclopedia. It should allow references to visual media as long as the source is recognized news media.
How 'bout an editing standard which says that we will leave your posts as is unless and until we research and find that your sources are unverifiable, but that verified true fatual accounts will be let alone. No matter what our personal politics are,

I doubt, however, that Wiki's "editors" are that mature. Children often have a hard time dealing with criticism of themselves or their favorites, even when justified.
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contributing editors?
Hankr 5th Aug
I'd like to see stats on contributions for editors. Something tells me those who edit the most hardly contribute, probably because they are too young to get a bank account. In fact, I would like to see those who have to power to make executive edits/deletes/etc. be required to have a significant financial commitment with a verified public profile with no alias. That is an easy, and effective screen. Harsh? Unfair? Perhaps to some. But will easily negate the Penny Arcade Theory of the Internet which is destroying it's credibility.

This goes back to the Inclusionist/Deletionist debate. Deletionists win every battle, but lose the war because those who do the work end up leaving since it's easy to be hater and knock over (delete) someone else's work quoting a mish mash of rules. The site is a sociological study of Orwellian madness.

As a friend of mine once put it succinctly: "Why play warcraft every night, when you can play Wikipedia - it's free and real."
@Hankr

The deletionists suck and are a part of why I left. It's all just a bunch of bureaucratic bullcrap, and it seems like all you need to do to get an article deleted is ask whether it's noteworthy and then some admin will just delete it. It's not worth writing new articles because some ****** will just come along and have it deleted for no real reason other than just because they have OCD about the number of articles in a particular topic.

Add on how they have all these non-noteworthy sacred cows like Startrek episodes, characters, random startrek trivia, WoW, Dungeons and Dragons trivia, etc. and you wind up with an inconsistent and disheartening system. Is it really noteworthy that 5 minutes and 32 seconds into the third episode of the forth season of star trek that captain kirk farted (made up factoid)? If that were true, wikipedia would have a page devoted to it.
as witnessed by the people who call themselves contributors.

There are several people in THIS discussion, who are very biased/partisan, and if their contributions to THIS forum are any indications, their contributions to Wikipedia would be just as partisan and worthless.

There is a very good reason for schools to not permit Wikipedia as a source for material in essays and assignments.
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The reason I cut back on my contributions to Wikipedia (actually "closed" my account by entering a random password I don't know) is because of the editing rules and how they are enforced.

They seem to think they are creating a paper encyclopedia, rather than the internet resource that its users clearly want it to be. Good God it's 2011!

It's one thing to have standards, but things like instant deletion of entire new articles, or complaining that actually useful articles are "too long" is some of the reasons why Wikipedia is dying.
No wonder. I am on a rural connexion which is essentially a LAN setup with 600 subsribers and as such, I am rejected in trying to send in a contributing article as they cannot be certain of my identity or so I was told in the auto rejection I received. After spending much time in writing the article and researching it, this is what I get as a reward. I gave up. There ought to be at least an email alternative to sending in contributions for such situations but I could not even communicate that problem as well..I got the same rejection no matter how I tried to access the site. Now..I just use it but do not think it worth trying to aid in developing it. There are in other words many alternative systems out here in the world to access the internet and Wikipedia seems to have denied any who are in my situation any access other than as a user. Considering that I am an expert in a field that is poorly covered in Wikipedia, tis a shame.
@nfiertel It sounds as if at least one of the 600 people was consistently vandalizing articles so they blocked the LAN network. All you have to do is register for an account (name and password) and as long as you login you should have no problems.
Unsurprising, as Wikipedia is unreliable. The whole concept was flawed: the complete lack of governance and accountability means you cannot trust what it reproduces.
Depends on the type of article. Some (artists, authors, politicians) follow a fairly standard format. Unless someone's trying to play games, disagreements are generally discussed and worked out. Same for non-controversial articles about science, history and so forth. What gets all the attention are the usual controversial articles, a small fraction of the total. All that's expected, and not (imo) why people quit.

Bad experiences are more memorable and affecting than good experiences, and bad experiences with supposedly "higher level people" are more memorable and affecting than those with "equals". Combine that with the preponderance of young men who view admitting mistakes, changing opinions, collaborating, or even saying "thank you" as a sign of weakness. Add in their instinct for territorialism and you now have the perfect storm for many non-young and/or non-men finding other ways to invest their time. Note the use of the word "invest" as opposed to "spend" or "waste".)

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