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Nanotech and immortality

By | August 29, 2006, 3:22pm PDT

Summary: Ray Kurzweil, in “The Singularity is Near” proposes a redesign of cells using nanotechnology that would cure disease…and aging.

From the "out of left field" department, I’ve been finishing up my reading of Ray Kurzweil’s "The Singularity is Near," a book I bought over eight months ago and hadn’t got around to finishing yet. In my defense, at 651 pages and with enough cross-disiplinary technical detail to tax the thinking capacity of most people (IMO), it’s hardly light reading.

This post doesn’t exactly fit with my typical blogging fare (though this series of pieces from January, 2006, does), but that never stopped me before.

Anyway, Kurzweil in Chapter 5, titled GNR (which doesn’t stand for Guns ‘n Roses), discusses the revolutionary changes that will lead to the complete redesign of the human body, right down to the molecular level. This, obviously, would make our attempts to stop performance-enhancing substances in sports seem like applying an expensive new coat of paint to a car before entering it in a demolition derby. Kurzweil goes further than the concept and tries to paint broad outlines as to how it might be done. It made me sit back and go "wow."

Kurzweil notes earlier in the book how nanobots would do a better job of getting oxygen to cells than the biological solution (red blood cells), and in the following paragraphs, suggests how we could redesign the cells themselves to be mostly immune to pathogens.

Upgrading the Cell Nucleus with a Nanocomputer and a Nanobot

Here’s a conceptually simple proposal to overcome all biological pathogens except for prions (self-replicating pathological proteins). With the advent of full-scale nanotechnology in the 2020s we will have the potential to replace biology’s genetic-information repository in the cell nucleus with a nanoengineered system that would maintain the genetic code and simulate the actions of RNA, the ribosome, and other elements of the computer in biology’s assembler. A nano-computer would maintain the genetic code and implement the gene-expression algorithms. A nanobot would then construct the amino-acid sequences for the expressed genes.

There would be significant benefits in adopting such a mechanism. We would eliminate the accumulation of DNA transcription errors, one major source of the aging process (something we’ll be able to do long before this scenario, using gene-therapy techniques). We would also be able to defeat biological pathogens (bacteria, viruses, and cancer cells) by blocking any unwanted replication of genetic information

I don’t have a scanner, but in a graphic on the page, he has a mockup which includes lines to indicate wireless communication to the outside world. Let’s hope that wireless communication CAN’T be hacked, otherwise digital vandals might inject us with genes to turn everyone into clones of Jessica Simpson, or some fire-breathing lizard creature from the pages of a Dungeon Master’s Guide.

To those who doubt whether such nano-extravagance is possible, Kurzweil has this rather pithy rejoinder (made in response to a certain Nobel Laureate named Richard Smalley, a critic of Eric Drexler’s proposed design of a nano-assembler):

Indeed, if Smalley’s critique were valid, none of us would be here to discuss it, because life itself would be impossible, given that biology’s assembler does exactly what Smalley says is impossible.

In other words, we are all a bunch of nano-machines that have evolved over the course of billions of years. Weird stuff, and even weirder is to think that this kind of thing happened all on its own. That’s probably the reason some think there had to be some rational guiding principle to it all, as spontaneously self-organizing nano-machines seems too weird…

…unless that says something about the inherent structure of the universe, which in itself is weird. What a confusing puzzle we live in. Truth IS stranger than fiction.

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John Carroll has delivered his opinion on ZDNet since the last millennium. Since May 2008, he is no longer a Microsoft employee. He is currently working at a unified messaging-related startup.

Disclosure

John Carroll

http://blogs.zdnet.com/carroll/?p=1412

Biography

John Carroll

John Carroll has programmed in a wide variety of computing domains, including servers, client PCs, mobile phones and even mainframes. His current specialties are C#, .NET, Java, WIN32/COM and C++, and he has applied those skills in everything from distributed web-based systems to embedded devices. In his spare time, he enjoys the world of digital video, and served as director of photography and editor on a feature-length film produced in Limerick, Ireland, as well as a low-budget production filmed in Los Angeles that used Panavision digital cameras (the same ones used by George Lucas in the later Star Wars episodes).

John worked in Microsoft's Mediaroom division from May, 2005 to May, 2008. He is co-founder of ForgetMeNot Software, a creator of unified messaging software targeted at telecommunications providers, where he currently works as Director of Technology.

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RE: P. Douglas
D. Pouglas 20th Jan 2011
I don't care that I'm necromancing a very old thread. I also did not mind taking the time to sign up for this website just to comment on your ramblings. You amaze me. You reference the debates about ID that you have "won" If your measure of winning is as flawed as the rest of your logic, then I'm sure you win everything you have ever done.

You go on about how evolution is not proven and can not have happened. You say this because it violates these rules you have pulled out of thin air. I could list all of your logical fallacies, but it boils down to you having flawed statements based on flawed logic.

I honestly stand in awe of you. You go through an impressive series of mental gymnastics. It must take a lot of work to think around others arguments like that, so you can win them. You are very skilled at doing that.

Your defense of a creator is hollow. You accuse others (who actually do have proof) of not having proof when you have none yourself. That is not to say that they win because you are wrong.

The lady doth protest too much, methinks. I think your staunch defense of ID is an effort to convince yourself to believe in it. They say a spoon full of religion helps the acceptance of mortality go down.
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Kurzweil's Ideas Violate Two Principles
P. Douglas 29th Aug 2006
There are two principles I would like to discuss: 1) that of something being able to create something else substantially better than itself; and 2) that of something substantially improving itself. The fact of the matter is that these two principles are not seen around us, but the ?theory? of evolution, and people like Kurzweil claim they exist. And to make matters worse, claimants of the existence of the above 2 principles, suggest that they only exist within the theory? of evolution, and like theories which cannot be proved.

As an example, if you were to ask someone, how is it that you don?t see viruses creating plant, animals, and humans? They would reply that this, according to the ?theory? of evolution, only occurs in tiny baby steps. They cannot point to irrefutable proof that either the above example, or its underlying principle actually exist. Similarly, Kurzweil et al cannot point to irrefutable proof that the principle of things being able to substantially improve themselves actually exist.

Now the above is very important, because we see opposites of the above 2 principles all around us, but never see the 2 principles themselves. Therefore we see man creating viruses, and man and animals fashioning tools ? wherein things or creatures are able to create things substantially lesser than themselves (but not the other way around). Similarly we don?t see a dirty rag cleaning itself, rather we see external agents applied to things, to make the things become substantially improved. This is important, because it is important to realize that mankind can only be substantially improved, by an external agent effecting the change. Therefore it is impossible for mankind to reach any where close to perfection, without something external causing it.
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Re: improvement
John Carroll 29th Aug 2006
1) that of something being able to create something else substantially better than itself; and 2) that of something substantially improving itself. The fact of the matter is that these two principles are not seen around us, but the ?theory? of evolution, and people like Kurzweil claim they exist.

I would say the design of a modern computer, and the data efficiency of that device, is superior in many ways to some of the biological analogs we see in cells. Granted, it isn't as small (yet), and we don't have the massively parallel architecture of something like the brain, but certain aspects are better, and taken to its logical conclusion, I could easily see us making something "better" than ourselves. I have no logical problem with that.

Evolution I consider incontrovertible. We can debate whether or not there is some mysterious divine hand, but given that that's not provable I consider it extraneous to the discussion. What does seem true is that living creatures DO evolve, slowly, over time, and more complex creatures CAN come from much simpler ones, given long enough timeframes to allow slow incremental changes to add up.

As an example, if you were to ask someone, how is it that you don?t see viruses creating plant, animals, and humans?

A nonsense example, as that would be like asking a single transistor to single-handedly guide the robotic construction process at a car factory. However, it IS possible for a less complicated computer to guide the process of making a more complicated one. Granted, in this case, the information used to guide the machine is complex, and right now, we don't have machines that can rival the human brain in terms of creativity. But, allow the incremental changes to continue in the same accelerating pace identified by Kurzweil, and I could see things ending up very different.

Similarly we don?t see a dirty rag cleaning itself, rather we see external agents applied to things, to make the things become substantially improved.

Dirty rags aren't intelligent. The question is can intelligent things improve themselves. Humans clearly do. The question is whether a machine can replicate that process, and given improvements over the biological accidents, do it faster. Kurzweil believes the answer to that question is yes, a machine can replicate that process, and that will be the driver of the accelerating pace of human technological development...AND evolution.
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Re: improvement
P. Douglas 29th Aug 2006
I would say the design of a modern computer, and the data efficiency of that device, is superior in many ways to some of the biological analogs we see in cells. Granted, it isn't as small (yet), and we don't have the massively parallel architecture of something like the brain, but certain aspects are better, and taken to its logical conclusion, I could easily see us making something "better" than ourselves. I have no logical problem with that.

By your reasoning, many animals are better than humans because they are stronger, faster, etc. in a number of areas than us. However, can lions build cities and spacecraft? Are we not by and large their captors rather than the other way around? Therefore just because man builds tools that exceed his capabilities in a number of areas, hardly means that there is a potential for man?s tools to exceed him.

Evolution I consider incontrovertible. We can debate whether or not there is some mysterious divine hand, but given that that's not provable I consider it extraneous to the discussion. What does seem true is that living creatures DO evolve, slowly, over time, and more complex creatures CAN come from much simpler ones, given long enough timeframes to allow slow incremental changes to add up.

Saying that evolution is incontrovertible hardly makes it so. Where is the irrefutable proof that evolution actually takes place, and why is its underlying principle (that of something being able to create something else substantially better than itself) not seen around us? Also the existence of God is provable through observation and reasoning.

A nonsense example, as that would be like asking a single transistor to single-handedly guide the robotic construction process at a car factory. However, it IS possible for a less complicated computer to guide the process of making a more complicated one. Granted, in this case, the information used to guide the machine is complex, and right now, we don't have machines that can rival the human brain in terms of creativity. But, allow the incremental changes to continue in the same accelerating pace identified by Kurzweil, and I could see things ending up very different.

Fine, show me an example of a computer designing another one substantially greater than itself, without human intervention.

Dirty rags aren't intelligent. The question is can intelligent things improve themselves. Humans clearly do. The question is whether a machine can replicate that process, and given improvements over the biological accidents, do it faster. Kurzweil believes the answer to that question is yes, a machine can replicate that process, and that will be the driver of the accelerating pace of human technological development...AND evolution.

Okay, substitute human being for dirty rag in what I said above. Also, I said substantially improve itself ? not merely improve itself. People?s fundamental behavior have not changed for thousands of years. People generally aren?t telepathic now, as opposed to how they were thousands of years ago, etc.
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Re: Re: improvement
John Carroll 29th Aug 2006
By your reasoning, many animals are better than humans because they are stronger, faster, etc. in a number of areas than us.

Many animals ARE better in certain areas. A cat has a more efficient spinal column design. Lions have more powerful muscles, and can better defend themselves in natural situations. Just because they are better in certain physical aspects, however, does not mean they are more intelligent.

Intelligence is obviously our advantage, and we are "better" than any animal in that regard.

Therefore just because man builds tools that exceed his capabilities in a number of areas, hardly means that there is a potential for man?s tools to exceed him.

But we do. I can't chop a tree down on my own, but I can if I have a chainsaw. I can't fire a small lead object faster than the speed of sound. I can if I have a gun. On my own, I am naked. I can MAKE clothes, however (or, people can...I'm not so great around a sewing machine wink )

Saying that evolution is incontrovertible hardly makes it so. Where is the irrefutable proof that evolution actually takes place, and why is its underlying principle (that of something being able to create something else substantially better than itself) not seen around us?

I think it is, but the timeframes we have for comparison is so short. We've dramatically changed the shape and characteristics of certain animals (cats, dogs, etc) in very short timeframes. That's making mild changes to genetics via breeding. Now, extend that over time, and add a bunch of mild changes together that are the result of some successful creatures surviving and breeding more, and others dying because they are not as effective at survival, and you get evolution.

Evolution is incredibly logical, and I have trouble understanding why anyone would question it. Now, we can argue about what CAUSES it, though as noted, I think the question of divine intervention is something we can't prove one way or another given our limited material contact with the outside world. In other words, it's really relevant to the discussion.

Also the existence of God is provable through observation and reasoning.

I disagree. Proving things happen in the material world is doable. Proving their root causes is not. You can make up logical reasons why you think a divine being HAD to initiate things, but really, all you've proven (assuming your proof is logically sound) is that something has to be driving it. Whether or not that is god or some incomprehensibly weird structure of the universe is something none of us can "prove."

We can only, in other words, "prove" what happens.

Fine, show me an example of a computer designing another one substantially greater than itself, without human intervention.

Not yet. We don't have machines that powerful yet. We have made SOME things better than biological systems, however. I'm just saying it seems conceivable that we can extend that to the point of making an artificial brain more powerful than our own, particularly as it uses the mechanical improvements on biology we have already discovered.

Also, I said substantially improve itself ? not merely improve itself.

I think we HAVE substantially improved ourselves through our technology. We aren't the creatures that foraged in forests in the distant past. What we haven't done is create an artificial intelligence, or started to truly alter ourselves using the knowledge we gain from building artificial intelligence. I think it conceivable that we may do so...someday...and if Kurzweil is right, that someday could be sooner than we think.
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Evolution principles, divinity
P. Douglas 30th Aug 2006
Therefore just because man builds tools that exceed his capabilities in a number of areas, hardly means that there is a potential for man?s tools to exceed him.

But we do. I can't chop a tree down on my own, but I can if I have a chainsaw. I can't fire a small lead object faster than the speed of sound. I can if I have a gun. On my own, I am naked. I can MAKE clothes, however (or, people can...I'm not so great around a sewing machine :wink: )


I don't see where you undermined what I said.

Saying that evolution is incontrovertible hardly makes it so. Where is the irrefutable proof that evolution actually takes place, and why is its underlying principle (that of something being able to create something else substantially better than itself) not seen around us?

I think it is, but the timeframes we have for comparison is so short. We've dramatically changed the shape and characteristics of certain animals (cats, dogs, etc) in very short timeframes. That's making mild changes to genetics via breeding. Now, extend that over time, and add a bunch of mild changes together that are the result of some successful creatures surviving and breeding more, and others dying because they are not as effective at survival, and you get evolution.


I'm sorry, but I don't see any proof in what you said, about the correctness of evolution. How have cats, dogs, etc. substantially improved their own selves, or created creatures better than themselves? Also, you pointed to an important defect with evolution supporters: they ultimately cannot prove the theory they put forward.

Evolution is incredibly logical, and I have trouble understanding why anyone would question it. Now, we can argue about what CAUSES it, though as noted, I think the question of divine intervention is something we can't prove one way or another given our limited material contact with the outside world. In other words, it's really relevant to the discussion.

Almost any argument contains some logic, but that hardly means that it is fundamentally sound. Evolution violates several principles in life, which its supporters ignore. As for the question of the existence of divinity: which is more perfect, a society with intelligent human beings living lawfully, or a society with foolish human beings living recklessly? The first kind of society can accomplish great things, but the second kind is much more limited in what it can do. Now when we look around, we see a world and universe of astounding organization and governance, how can we reasonably conclude anything other than the fact that they were established by highly intelligent, powerful, righteous beings, who are far more perfect than ourselves. It is the beings and their society that exist at the top of the hierarchy of all things that exist, which we call divinity.
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Evolution has been proven
voska 30th Aug 2006
"Also, you pointed to an important defect with evolution supporters: they ultimately cannot prove the theory they put forward."

You can even see it yourself. You can actually view micro-organisms evolving as you watch. History is also full of example of evolution.

Evolution in no way removes creationism however. Something had to start the ball rolling didn't it? That could be a devine being, something beyond our comphension or the whole thing could just be more than man could ever understand.

Also I don't think I believe the whole we are descended from monkeys idea. That's kind of silly if ask me.
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Evolution - the real proof
jcg_z 30th Aug 2006
The real "proof" of evolution is that universally researchers who are advancing the fields of medicine, bio-technology, and genetics -- all things generating very real solutions to just the sort of problems impacting treatment of disease and illnesses -- accept and base much of their work on the premise that evolution happens. So-called "scientists" who go to lengths to deny that evolution is acceptable science almost universally do not generate results that advance what we are able to do or to generate work that advances the field.

Science is not about "proof" in the mathematical sense, and it never has been. It's about peer-review and demonstrating results.

You can spend a lot of energy batting around philsophical arguments of design and quibbling over the first law of thermodynamics, but in the end, science is not philosophy. It's about a social network of researchers who obtain additional money to continue their work by demonstrating results that the community of other reasearchers recognizes as legitimate work that they can themselves built upon. Ultimate, that science is funded that delivers results. And that, by me, is as good an arbiter of "truth" as any.

None of this says you can't legitimately belive in God, or space aliens, or the mysterious unknowable other, only that none of this should be confused with science.

Check out "The Anatomy of Scientific Revolutions" by Thomas Kuhn for some background if you'd like some potentially mind-opening insights.
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Also the existence of God is provable through observation and reasoning.

I disagree. Proving things happen in the material world is doable. Proving their root causes is not. You can make up logical reasons why you think a divine being HAD to initiate things, but really, all you've proven (assuming your proof is logically sound) is that something has to be driving it. Whether or not that is god or some incomprehensibly weird structure of the universe is something none of us can "prove."

We can only, in other words, "prove" what happens.


If there is no witness in a case, but there is strong forensic and other evidence that a suspect committed a crime, is it unreasonable for a jury to convict the suspect? Therefore, is it unreasonable for us to infer from the things around us, the structure and organization of our universe? In fact, isn?t that what science attempts to do?

Fine, show me an example of a computer designing another one substantially greater than itself, without human intervention.

Not yet. We don't have machines that powerful yet. We have made SOME things better than biological systems, however. I'm just saying it seems conceivable that we can extend that to the point of making an artificial brain more powerful than our own, particularly as it uses the mechanical improvements on biology we have already discovered.


We think it is conceivable based on the popular notion that things can create other things substantially greater than themselves. However it is a fact that this principle does not exist.

Also, I said substantially improve itself ? not merely improve itself.

I think we HAVE substantially improved ourselves through our technology. We aren't the creatures that foraged in forests in the distant past. What we haven't done is create an artificial intelligence, or started to truly alter ourselves using the knowledge we gain from building artificial intelligence. I think it conceivable that we may do so...someday...and if Kurzweil is right, that someday could be sooner than we think.


All that we have done, is through technology, made superficial improvements to ourselves. E.g. when you look at disasters, and the way people react in disasters, we see that we are essentially the same as our forbears, thousands of years ago.
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Re: Re: improvement (edited)
John Carroll 29th Aug 2006
Darn lack of preview....

I meant...

In other words, it's really not relevant to the discussion.

...but you probably guessed that.
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Stained class comforts often confiscated.
John Le'Brecage 30th Aug 2006
Not to go too off-topic here, but you could just switch to Firefox and install Greasemonkey and ZDstyler; if you really wanted the ZD-net preview function back.

Joke! Joke! I'm sure you've already considered your options, JC.
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You know...
John Carroll 30th Aug 2006
...I think I might just try that. I already use Firefox to post to ZDNet, and have zero problems using it for other things.

I realize you've talked about this before, but the fact that there are easier ways to deal with this problem just slipped my mind.
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Deliberately disregarding evidence
hlampert 30th Aug 2006
How about you take a visit to the Museum of Natural History in New York for PLENTY of evidence regarding the theory of evolution. Regarding man being improved: ever hear of cavemen? Neanderthals evolving into cromagnum evolving into Homo Sapiens? There's TONS of fossil evidence supporting the connection between these species, and NO evidence that any external intelligent force was applied to make it happen!
Here's a link: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/prehistoric_life/human/species/

The real problem is that creationists, err, Intelligent Design people refuse to BELIEVE in rationality, so there is very little point in discussing anything with them.
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Ninja hordes swarm over the hillsides...
John Le'Brecage 30th Aug 2006
Just a nitpick, that in no way invalidates the evidence for Homo sapiens evolution. Recent mitocondrial DNA studies have confirmed Homo Neanderthalensis did not evolve into Homo Sapiens, Rather both were offshoots of a common ancestor Homo Ergaster, which was a short-lived (in geological terms) evolution of Homo Erectus.
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Also
voska 30th Aug 2006
Neaderthals and Homo Spapiens existed at the same time in different regions of the planet. There is even evidence that leans towards inter breeding of the two species in Northern Europe.
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What evidence have I disregarded?
P. Douglas 30th Aug 2006
The bottom line is that there is no incontrovertible proof. Every aspect of evolution can be explained away using alternate explanations ? from the existence of early primates which died off, to the creation of models of older creatures from fossils, fashioned in ways to support evolution.

As for evidence of intelligent forces crafting our world, this is evident from the ultra sophistication of our world and universe, and from the principle we see around us of the ordering of things only taking place via the action of intelligent beings.
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Principles of evolution
dave.leigh@... 30th Aug 2006
> Similarly we don?t see a dirty rag cleaning itself, rather we
> see external agents applied to things, to make the things become
> substantially improved.

That is true of natural selection as well. People who don't understand evolution repeatedly mischaracterize it as a gradual process of self-improvement. That's not the case. Natural selection is a matter of the external influences eliminating those natural variations that not well-suited to the environment (with no regard to whether the variation is a "baby-step" or a giant leap. Changes are only gradual in that they must breed true and it takes time for them to spread throughout the succeeding generations). IOW, harsh environmental conditions and competition kill off those organisms that are ill-suited before they can reproduce, leaving those organisms that are better suited. Considered in this way, natural selection is a destructive process requiring no violation of physical principles.

Note that this is the opposite of the popular conception that organisms "adapt" to their environment. They don't... the environment and competition do the culling. NATURAL selection has no philosophical preference; in this context there is no measure by which we can say that one organism is an "improvement" over another other than in having greater success in passing on genes to the next generation.

Artificial selection works much the same way. We breed animals and plants with the qualities we want, and cull undesirable traits without allowing the possessors to breed. Thus, in historical times we have seen breeding and selection by farmers yield cows that give more milk, sheep that yield more wool, grasses that yield more grain. We know for a fact that genetic selection works because we've seen it happen and made it happen. "Improvement" in this context is what pleases us, in that we have created the environment that selects for those improved traits.

We depend on evolution. Even though it wasn't explicitly described until Darwin, we've used it to our benefit for thousands of years, and have understood its principles for all that time. It is no surprise (to anyone but a few modern Creationists) that if you breed only your fluffiest sheep, over time your entire herd will be fluffy, or that tall parents have tall children.

Your objection against something substantially improving itself is without basis. It ignores the fact that we have unprecedented control over our environment and are capable of influencing that which influences us. Through the invention and application of medications leading to the eradication of many deadly diseases we have dramatically improved the human lifespan. This is an inverse example of evolution: we routinely improve our suitability for the environment by changing the environment itself and we reap the benefits.

Your implicit assumption is that external influences must originate outside of a species. Not true. In some cases, traits are selected for that have no bearing on suitability for a particular environment, but rather selection for (for example) sexual preference. These traits provide examples where a species engages in self-modification purely due to preferences within that species (they pick sexually attractive mates and pass on those traits, which is obvious even to a Creationist). The point here is that (if we are honest) we know as an indisputable fact that we select AMONG OURSELVES according to our own preferences. If we believe in free will then we must of necessity allow that these preferences are not externally imposed. Rather, we provide our own intra-species dynamics that determine whether individual members of our group will be successful in passing on their genes.

All that said, some of the things discussed by Kurzweil have nothing to do with evolution. Nanobots to replace red blood, for example, wouldn't be genetically transmitted. They are in the category of mechanical assistance (and anybody with a pacemaker or on portable oxygen should recognize this as a difference of degree, not of kind). Gene therapy may be transmissible, but as to whether it's an improvement... well, that's a matter of opinion, and I think the skeptics have the high ground. I, for one, wouldn't characterize dependence on nanobots as an improvement in any case. Beneficiaries of the technologies would probably disagree. I also find it unlikely that we'll engineer substantially better machines to police DNA than the enzymes we already have.

Nevertheless, on a more limited scale we've seen that gene therapy can be effected on lab animals. There is no principle that prevents the substitution of human subjects for any others. The fact is that a subset of humanity CAN effect evolutionary changes on another subset without violating any principle that you imagine exists. Whether they SHOULD is a whole other topic.
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How did you counter my point?
P. Douglas 30th Aug 2006
What did you write above, violate the principle you quoted at the top of your comment? If a particular animal does well because its environment favors its existence, how has the animal substantially improved itself? Also, if someone modifies his behavior, how has he improved himself by exhibiting behaviors substantially better than the known range of human behaviors? No one has ever done this. Do you know of anyone who has ever done this?
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You misunderstand Evolution completely
dave.leigh@... 30th Aug 2006
Your point is countered because your premise is revealed as flawed. Once again: Evolution isn't about "improvement".
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Clarification
P. Douglas 30th Aug 2006
Okay let me clarify a few things. My contention is that evolution violates the principle of creatures creating other creatures greater than themselves. Now in an associated field, you have people like Kurzweil contending that creatures can substantially improve their own selves in an evolutionary (baby steps) like manner. My point is that both these processes are impossible, because they would have to violate the principles I stated above.
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They're not a valid principles...
dave.leigh@... 30th Aug 2006
... as I show,
here: http://tinyurl.com/pnv9j
and here: http://tinyurl.com/ldn8a
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Even a plastic bin needs external force
don_the_newbie 29th Aug 2006
So they say that from one creature to another form - that is from one DNA pattern and one set of genes to another, well I find that unbelievable. Even a plastic bin, a very simple thing at that, could not have been there if there we no machines and men to cause its very formation inthe first place.

That is a very simple process, the transformation from one organism to another is such a complicated process that we begin to ask, granting that is true, who design the process in who laboratory?

THERE MUST BE ORIGINATOR OF ALL THESE.
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Foolish flies fought with flypaper and lost.
John Le'Brecage 29th Aug 2006
Kurzwiel's point is: If life were intelligently designed; living things would work efficiently and with sustainable perfection. Since none do; there is not, nor has there ever been, a designer of life: intelligent or otherwise. Read the book and listen to his many interviews. He does not support the notion of ID.
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Couldn't have said it better
John Carroll 29th Aug 2006
I favor the unusual order in the universe side of the argument, whatever that means. I also agree that our technological development is an extension to evolution, and that we CAN improve ourselves over the chaotic an inefficient current design (most of DNA is dedicated to extraneous code, slow protein-based communication, the list goes on).

Is there a creator? I have no proof for any of it, but clearly, the universe is odd enough in its own right. I'll leave the theological questions to when I'm dead.
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Thank you.
John Le'Brecage 30th Aug 2006
Thank you.



I had to write a mod to turn off the fortune-cookie script for this comment. What good would it be without an off switch for emergencies?
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If life were intelligently designed; living things would work efficiently and with sustainable perfection. Since none do; there is not, nor has there ever been, a designer of life: intelligent or otherwise.

If I built a perfect machine, and then someone sabotaged it, wouldn't the machine operate imperfectly as a result? Isn?t it therefore more plausible that our world was created with perfection, and then it was sabotaged and made imperfect? Also, just because you cannot readily see perfect beings, hardly means that they don?t exist. Mankind knows and perceives almost nothing. If a retarded individual who can only fathom the most basic elements of life, looked around, and was not able to perceive and understand cities, and machines, and space travel, and the like, would that mean that these things do not exist?

We know that something greater than our world created our world, because we see the principle all around us. We also see the principle of pure things being polluted to make them work deficiently ? often times out of malice. We however do not see the principles of things creating other things substantially better than themselves, or of impure things purifying themselves without external help. Therefore there is no empirical evidence supporting Kurzwiel?s contentions, but there is empirical evidence supporting what I stated.
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Occam's Razor
dave.leigh@... 30th Aug 2006
> If I built a perfect machine, and then someone sabotaged it, wouldn't
> the machine operate imperfectly as a result?

Thus, ID requires the existence of an intelligent creator AND an intelligent (and extremely diligent!) saboteur, both of whom require motivation. Evolution achieves exactly the same result with none of this extraneous drama. Which, then, is more reasonable?

Since your contention about "external help" is dismantled in my earlier (very long) post, you can consider this question to be rhetorical.
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And your point ...
P. Douglas 30th Aug 2006
Thus, ID requires the existence of an intelligent creator AND an intelligent (and extremely diligent!) saboteur, both of whom require motivation. Evolution achieves exactly the same result with none of this extraneous drama. Which, then, is more reasonable?

Since your contention about "external help" is dismantled in my earlier (very long) post, you can consider this question to be rhetorical.


If evolution violates several principles of life, and 'Intelligent Design' does not, why is evolution the more straightforward explanation? Also, what is so fantastic about intelligent beings creating our universe, and other beings sabotaging it? Don?t we see these principles all around us?
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Again, you misunderstand Evolution entirely
dave.leigh@... 30th Aug 2006
> If evolution violates several principles of life,
> and 'Intelligent Design' does not, why is
> evolution the more straightforward explanation?

Because you have it reversed. Evolution does NOT violate principles of life; whereas ID most certainly DOES. Pay attention, P... you're attention is wandering.
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How am I?
P. Douglas 30th Aug 2006
> If evolution violates several principles of life,
> and 'Intelligent Design' does not, why is
> evolution the more straightforward explanation?

Because you have it reversed. Evolution does NOT violate principles of life; whereas ID most certainly DOES. Pay attention, P... you're attention is wandering.


Evolution violates the principle of creatures not having the capacity to create other creatures substantially greater than themselves ? with or without the aid of the environment. Also, which principle of life does ID violate?
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Like this.
dave.leigh@... 30th Aug 2006
> Evolution violates the principle of creatures not having the capacity to create other creatures
> substantially greater than themselves ? with or without the aid of the environment.

For instance, "lowly" disease-causing bacteria can kill off all members of a "higher" species not having a sufficiently developed immune response, thus leaving the species stronger as a whole. Once again, that's the way evolution works... it's a destructive process which allows no concept of an organism being "greater than" or "lesser than" another. Your "principle" therefore, is simply an assertion, and a provably false one at that.

> Also, which principle of life does ID violate?

Any discussion of intelligent design short of divine creation simply begs the question until we reach the divine. Therefore, ID is a pseudo-scientific religious euphemism for miraculous creation by a divine creator. This is BY DEFINITION a supernatural event. IOW, it violates every principle, or you're not talking about ID at all.
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No I don't
P. Douglas 30th Aug 2006
> Evolution violates the principle of creatures not having the capacity to create other creatures
> substantially greater than themselves ? with or without the aid of the environment.

For instance, "lowly" disease-causing bacteria can kill off all members of a "higher" species not having a sufficiently developed immune response, thus leaving the species stronger as a whole. Once again, that's the way evolution works... it's a destructive process which allows no concept of an organism being "greater than" or "lesser than" another. Your "principle" therefore, is simply an assertion, and a provably false one at that.


The following is from Wikipedia:

In biology, evolution is the change in the heritable traits of a population over successive generations, as determined by shifts in the allele frequencies of genes. Through the course of time, this process results in the origin of new species from existing ones (speciation). All contemporary organisms are related to each other through common descent, the products of cumulative evolutionary changes over billions of years. Evolution is the source of the vast diversity of extant and extinct life on Earth."

Now the above indicates that evolution is the process by which creatures give rise ultimately to other creatures substantially greater than themselves. As I said before, my contention is that this principle cannot be seen around us.

> Also, which principle of life does ID violate?

Any discussion of intelligent design short of divine creation simply begs the question until we reach the divine. Therefore, ID is a pseudo-scientific religious euphemism for miraculous creation by a divine creator. This is BY DEFINITION a supernatural event. IOW, it violates every principle, or you're not talking about ID at all.


Please explain yourself. Don't you see hierarchies of creatures around you? Man who is above predators, which are above plant eaters, which are above plants? Why is it impossible for a hierarchy to exist all the way up to the divine? How does supernatural events violate principles of life? If supernatural events are events done by beings far greater than ourselves, to effect change in a ways that suits their purposes, how is that different from mankind and animals also doing events, to effect change in a ways that suits our purposes?
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[linked to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution]

> Now the above [Wikipedia quote] indicates that evolution is the process by which creatures give rise
> ultimately to other creatures substantially greater than themselves.
> As I said before, my contention is that this principle cannot be seen around us.

The partial Wikipedia quote which you used does not mention the mechanisms by which evolution operates. By taking it out of context your implication is that the mechanism is unimportant... by force of will alone, for all that the quote indicates, so it's unsurprising that you use it to come to yet another incorrect conclusion. On the contrary, both mechanisms upon which evolution is based (genetic drift and natural selection) are well researched and well documented. Your contention that "this principle cannot be seen around us" is factually incorrect. And, contrary to your conclusion, evolution implies NOTHING about descendents being "substantially greater than" their ancestors. Evolution only concludes that the descendents are different from their ancestors and are more suited to their current environments. That is not a subtle difference.

[in response to my contention that ID is supernatural:]

> Please explain yourself. Don't you see hierarchies of creatures
> around you? Man who is above predators, which are above plant eaters,
> which are above plants? Why is it impossible for a hierarchy to exist all
> the way up to the divine?

This has nothing whatsoever to do with the supernatural basis of ID. Science doesn't say the divine CAN'T exist: it says there's NO EVIDENCE for it. That's not a subtle difference, either. As for your heirarchies, Man is a predator AND a plant-eater. You believe that Man is "above" that which he himself is. For the record, he's also prey and, ultimately, plant food. So who's above whom? I wouldn't put stock in a heirarchy where, logically, my god is that which eats me. I know that's not what you intended, but I'd say you chose poor criteria on which to structure your heirarchy.

> How does supernatural events violate principles of life?

You're kidding, right? That is the definition of a supernatural event. It's Super.Natural. As opposed to natural. Ask your clergyman, he'll agree.

Look, I don't see you making any progress on this topic at all... either in presenting a valid argument or in grasping what is important abotu the arguments that are given. (And I'd still like to see an answer to this: http://tinyurl.com/rxw5b). As such I don't think this is worth pursuing further in this forum. But I'd be happy to continue the discussion in email.

Unlike most contributors, I'm easy to get find:
http://www.cratchit.org/dleigh/contact.htm
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Dave, if this were a boxing match....
thelemite 30th Aug 2006
you'd have won by KO. Kudos!
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No, I have not
P. Douglas 30th Aug 2006
[linked to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution]

> Now the above [Wikipedia quote] indicates that evolution is the process by which creatures give rise
> ultimately to other creatures substantially greater than themselves.
> As I said before, my contention is that this principle cannot be seen around us.

The partial Wikipedia quote which you used does not mention the mechanisms by which evolution operates. By taking it out of context your implication is that the mechanism is unimportant... by force of will alone, for all that the quote indicates, so it's unsurprising that you use it to come to yet another incorrect conclusion. On the contrary, both mechanisms upon which evolution is based (genetic drift and natural selection) are well researched and well documented. Your contention that "this principle cannot be seen around us" is factually incorrect. And, contrary to your conclusion, evolution implies NOTHING about descendents being "substantially greater than" their ancestors. Evolution only concludes that the descendents are different from their ancestors and are more suited to their current environments. That is not a subtle difference.


The mechanisms of evolution are incidental to this argument. The fact is, according to evolution, the mechanism results in organisms producing other organisms substantially greater than themselves. Remember the quote from the Wikipedia article I gave noted as follows:

"In biology, evolution is the change in the heritable traits of a population over successive generations, as determined by shifts in the allele frequencies of genes. Through the course of time, this process results in the origin of new species from existing ones (speciation). All contemporary organisms are related to each other through common descent, the products of cumulative evolutionary changes over billions of years. Evolution is the source of the vast diversity of extant and extinct life on Earth."

Now if the article says that ?all contemporary organisms are related to each other through common descent?, it means that creatures (man, animals, and plants) far greater than germs, were ultimately created by germs. As I said several times before, this principle is not seen around us.

[in response to my contention that ID is supernatural:]

> Please explain yourself. Don't you see hierarchies of creatures
> around you? Man who is above predators, which are above plant eaters,
> which are above plants? Why is it impossible for a hierarchy to exist all
> the way up to the divine?

This has nothing whatsoever to do with the supernatural basis of ID. Science doesn't say the divine CAN'T exist: it says there's NO EVIDENCE for it. That's not a subtle difference, either. As for your heirarchies, Man is a predator AND a plant-eater. You believe that Man is "above" that which he himself is. For the record, he's also prey and, ultimately, plant food. So who's above whom? I wouldn't put stock in a heirarchy where, logically, my god is that which eats me. I know that's not what you intended, but I'd say you chose poor criteria on which to structure your heirarchy.


The following is one of the definitions of Supernatural from dictionary.com:

of, pertaining to, or attributed to ghosts, goblins, or other unearthly beings; eerie; occult.

Now, if per dictionary.com, supernatural pertains to unearthly beings, and we see stars, planets, etc. in our universe, how can you say that there is no evidence of the divine, when we see these phenomena, which could only have been produced by supernatural beings ? i.e. beings not from earth? If we see the principle around us that sophisticated ordering only takes place through the action of intelligent beings, how else can we conclude but that stars, planets, etc. were made by supernatural beings not from our planet?
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Thelemite...
dave.leigh@... 30th Aug 2006
I had a rather nice response for you. Here is some of what I wrote:

"ID'ers are fundamentally disadvantaged in such arguments. ID'ers are rarely conversant with what Evolution actually means since they tend to cherry-pick some popular summary rather than REALLY study it as a science. An ID'er will ignore those points that refute him and woodenly repeat those mischaracterizations that have been totally discredited. OTOH, most Evolutionists thoroughly understand Creationism (which isn't that complicated, and is poorly masked by ID) and have rejected it. Given that and a weak argument, the ID'er isn't going to win. In fact, eventually he'll weaken his argument beyond repair in an embarrassingly desperate attempt to salvage it."

As I was writing I noticed that P.Douglas had already proved my point. He should have taken me up on my offer to take it off-line.
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Self-evident
dave.leigh@... 30th Aug 2006
> Also, what is so fantastic about intelligent beings creating our universe,
> and other beings sabotaging it? Don?t we see these principles all around us?

No. We've never, ever witnessed any beings creating a universe and other beings sabotaging it.
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Re: Self-evident
P. Douglas 30th Aug 2006
> Also, what is so fantastic about intelligent beings creating our universe,
> and other beings sabotaging it? Don?t we see these principles all around us?

No. We've never, ever witnessed any beings creating a universe and other beings sabotaging it.


Are you saying we don?t see humans making stuff, and other humans or animals sabotaging it?
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Don't change the subject.
dave.leigh@... 30th Aug 2006
>>> Also, what is so fantastic about intelligent beings creating our
>>> universe, and other beings sabotaging it? Don?t we see these principles
>>> all around us?

>> No. We've never, ever witnessed any beings creating a universe and
>> other beings sabotaging it.

> Are you saying we don?t see humans making stuff, and other humans or
> animals sabotaging it?

That has nothing to do with the original statement. If you're going to use an analogy, please use one that has some bearing on the topic. Moving stuff around is not even in principle similar to creating it ex nihilo. So in response to your original postulate, once again: NO. Absolutely not. We've never, ever witnessed any beings creating a universe and other beings sabotaging it.
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I did not change the subject
P. Douglas 30th Aug 2006
>>> Also, what is so fantastic about intelligent beings creating our
>>> universe, and other beings sabotaging it? Don?t we see these principles
>>> all around us?

>> No. We've never, ever witnessed any beings creating a universe and
>> other beings sabotaging it.

> Are you saying we don?t see humans making stuff, and other humans or
> animals sabotaging it?

That has nothing to do with the original statement. If you're going to use an analogy, please use one that has some bearing on the topic. Moving stuff around is not even in principle similar to creating it ex nihilo. So in response to your original postulate, once again: NO. Absolutely not. We've never, ever witnessed any beings creating a universe and other beings sabotaging it.


The following is one of the definitions given by dictionary.com for the word Principle:

rule or law exemplified in natural phenomena, the construction or operation of a machine, the working of a system, or the like: the principle of capillary attraction.

Now it is a ?law exemplified in natural phenomena? that people (or intelligent beings) create things. It is also a ?law exemplified in natural phenomena? that people (or intelligent beings) sabotage things that other people make. So again I ask, why is it so difficult to believe that intelligent beings created our universe, and other intelligent beings sabotaged it?
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Oh, look! You did it again!
dave.leigh@... 30th Aug 2006
> Now it is a ?law exemplified in natural phenomena?
> that people (or intelligent beings) create things.

The word "principle" isn't in question.

You are trying to equate creation (as in rearranging existing stuff, which is what people do) with Creation ex nihilo (which is Creation from nothing, which is not what people EVER do). Many dictionaries (including the American Heritage as you can see yourself on dictionary.com) recognize "creation" and "Creation" as homonyms. That is, words spelled the same but having different meanings. You skip from one to the other, thus changing the subject.

Really, P., you should try to keep up. Respond in email, as I won't respond here any longer. We're way past the "sell by" date for this topic on ZDNet.

http://www.cratchit.org/dleigh/contact.htm
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You are quibbling
P. Douglas 30th Aug 2006
You are trying to equate creation (as in rearranging existing stuff, which is what people do) with Creation ex nihilo (which is Creation from nothing, which is not what people EVER do). Many dictionaries (including the American Heritage as you can see yourself on dictionary.com) recognize "creation" and "Creation" as homonyms. That is, words spelled the same but having different meanings. You skip from one to the other, thus changing the subject.

Really, P., you should try to keep up. Respond in email, as I won't respond here any longer. We're way past the "sell by" date for this topic on ZDNet.


You are quibbling over essentially nothing. The entire creation was not created all at once ? or in 7 solar days. It was created over the course of millions or billions of years or even many, many more years. (This is what Gnostic and Zoroastrian texts say / suggest ? and it is borne out by empirical observations.) Therefore the 7 days the material universe was created, are metaphorical days. Therefore the ?original Creation? is one and the same as all of the constituent elements that were created over the course of the extremely long period of time ? and even before time was called into existence.
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By "whatever that means..."
John Carroll 29th Aug 2006
I mean just that, "whatever that means." I'm not sure what it means for the universe to have such weird spontaneous order. Something about the universe gives rise to order, the process of which we can track pretty well with science.

What does that mean? I don't know. I don't try to link it to anything divine, because when I get into that realm, I might as well link it all to Papa Smurf. I can't prove any of that, but I can wonder at the weirdness of it all.
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Re: By "whatever that means..."
P. Douglas 29th Aug 2006
I mean just that, "whatever that means." I'm not sure what it means for the universe to have such weird spontaneous order. Something about the universe gives rise to order, the process of which we can track pretty well with science.

Why is it that when you see an artificial item on earth that shows ordering, you conclude that there was intelligence behind its construction (e.g. man) ? with the more sophisticated the ordering, the greater the source intelligence. However when you see ordering in nature and our physical universe (many, many times greater than in artificial items), you conclude that there is no intelligence behind it?

What does that mean? I don't know. I don't try to link it to anything divine, because when I get into that realm, I might as well link it all to Papa Smurf. I can't prove any of that, but I can wonder at the weirdness of it all.

Don?t you use reasoning to be distinguish rubbish from the truth? Therefore reasoning can be used separate fact from fiction.
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Re: by whatever means...
John Carroll 29th Aug 2006
Why is it that when you see an artificial item on earth that shows ordering, you conclude that there was intelligence behind its construction (e.g. man) ? with the more sophisticated the ordering, the greater the source intelligence. However when you see ordering in nature and our physical universe (many, many times greater than in artificial items), you conclude that there is no intelligence behind it?

Because I have evidence that humans make things that I see on earth. I have no evidence that the bizarre order in biological systems (that humans had nothing to do with) came from some divine being. Like I said, the question of causes is something none of us can answer, putting it squarely in the realm of faith.

Don?t you use reasoning to be distinguish rubbish from the truth? Therefore reasoning can be used separate fact from fiction.

Given that I have no evidence one way or other regarding the causes, Papa Smurf and a divine being are equally plausible. That's why I don't try to get answers in the realm, because they are, at present, impossible to resolve.
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Why is it that when you see an artificial item on earth that shows ordering, you conclude that there was intelligence behind its construction (e.g. man) ? with the more sophisticated the ordering, the greater the source intelligence. However when you see ordering in nature and our physical universe (many, many times greater than in artificial items), you conclude that there is no intelligence behind it?

Because I have evidence that humans make things that I see on earth. I have no evidence that the bizarre order in biological systems (that humans had nothing to do with) came from some divine being. Like I said, the question of causes is something none of us can answer, putting it squarely in the realm of faith.


What evidence do you have that humans built the home you live in? Did you actually see the humans building your home, or did you deduce this happened from observations you made about things around you? In the same manner, it is reasonable to deduce the existence of Go,d by the things we see around us.
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John Carrol can infer the existence of the intelligent designers building his home, because he has seen other humans building other homes. Very little faith is involved there.

P. Douglas has never seen any god building any thing, complex or simple, and therefore has no observational evidence AT ALL from which to infer the building of anything by a diety. Much faith is therefore involved.

John C is probaly happy to leave matters of faith to the individual and so am I. I won enough of these Creationism/ID/Evolution debates to last me a lifetime. Please don't ask me to do it again. I shall refuse.
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[]iI won enough of these Creationism/ID/Evolution debates to last me a lifetime. Please don't ask me to do it again. I shall refuse.

Okay.
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That's induction, not deduction.
dave.leigh@... 30th Aug 2006
> What evidence do you have that humans built the home you live in?

I've actually seen humans building homes like mine. I've actually participated in that process. I see nothing about my home that is at odds with the homes built by anybody else. Therefore I can make the very reasonable deduction: people have made all known brick homes; I live in a brick home; therefore people made my brick home. That's reasoning from generalities to a specific case: deduction. Furthermore, I bought it from the family who had it built. I've met the builder and shaken his hand.

OTOH, you can't deduce the existence of God. "I see some things I can't explain; therefore God made them." That's reasoning from specific cases to a general conclusion: induction. And there is no empirical support for it, unlike the case of my house. We've never seen creation in action, though we have seen, repeatedly and consistently, natural processes at work.

The problem here is that we experience a consistent pattern where find naturalistic explanations for those things we don't understand. The more we know and the more we apply that knowledge, then the more explanations we find. The problem with invoking God as an explanation is that He's unnecessary for the things we can explain and there's no evidence for Him in the things we can't yet. Every time we've looked hard enough and long enough at a phenomenon with sufficient understanding of basic principles, we've found a naturalistic explanation. Concluding that this is likely to continue is also inductive, but it's based on actual experience.



I personally believe in God. But that's a matter of faith, not reason. There is no application of reason sufficient to support that belief. None. If you look around with logic and reason you must come to the conclusion that, if there is a God who created the Universe, He did so in such a way as to make it indistinguishable from a Universe that was created by natural processes. If He created it 6000+ years ago, He made it absolutely indistinguishable from a Universe that is billions of years old. If He is the creator, He has made it absolutely impossible for you to conclusively infer that as a matter of reason. You are left with your faith and your faith alone, which should be sufficient. IMHO, ID means "I'm Delusional" in that its proponents fool themselves into thinking that they can prove through logic that which isn't bound to logic. I have to ask, if a person has a personal knowledge of God, why would he even need that broken crutch? Why not rather accept as a matter of faith that He created the Universe, then delight in its complexity, which we discover through reason?
The following is not directed specifically to John Le'Brecage.

John Carrol can infer the existence of the intelligent designers building his home, because he has seen other humans building other homes. Very little faith is involved there.

P. Douglas has never seen any god building any thing, complex or simple, and therefore has no observational evidence AT ALL from which to infer the building of anything by a diety. Much faith is therefore involved.


Often times when you look on leaves on trees, you see them move, as if by an external force. They are those who say that it is an invisible phenomenon called the wind. Are the people who contend that this is so, people of faith? Do you realize that many phenomena in science that people claim to exist, cannot be seen? Would you say that science is a discipline of faith? My point is that there are many phenomena you cannot see. You are however are able to infer their existence, from your observations of the things you see around you.
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Creepy carnivorous craniums, Batman!
John Le'Brecage 31st Aug 2006
I said I wasn't going to argue this topic with you and I won't. Yours is a matter of faith and it is not up to me to dispell it.

David seems to being doing just fine without me.
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RE: P. Douglas
D. Pouglas 20th Jan 2011
I don't care that I'm necromancing a very old thread. I also did not mind taking the time to sign up for this website just to comment on your ramblings. You amaze me. You reference the debates about ID that you have "won" If your measure of winning is as flawed as the rest of your logic, then I'm sure you win everything you have ever done.

You go on about how evolution is not proven and can not have happened. You say this because it violates these rules you have pulled out of thin air. I could list all of your logical fallacies, but it boils down to you having flawed statements based on flawed logic.

I honestly stand in awe of you. You go through an impressive series of mental gymnastics. It must take a lot of work to think around others arguments like that, so you can win them. You are very skilled at doing that.

Your defense of a creator is hollow. You accuse others (who actually do have proof) of not having proof when you have none yourself. That is not to say that they win because you are wrong.

The lady doth protest too much, methinks. I think your staunch defense of ID is an effort to convince yourself to believe in it. They say a spoon full of religion helps the acceptance of mortality go down.

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