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Why Flash and Silverlight will save the web

By | July 15, 2008, 8:53am PDT

Summary: Flash and Silverlight are viewed in some circles as undermining a free and open Internet. The truth, however, is that both technologies are part of the process by which we map out a problem domain sufficiently, laying the groundwork for standardization committees of the future. Deviation from standards, in other words, is an essential component of standardization.

Usually, when I riff off another blogger, it’s a blogger with whom I strongly disagree. Disagreeing is a heck of a lot easier to do (a principle to which ZDNet Talkbackers may relate) because it gives you more to talk about. I’d rather join a discussion composed mostly of anti-globalization, closed border Luddites than one composed of free trade technophiles, not because I agree with the former group, but because we’d have more to talk about than the latter.

I agree completely, however, with Paul Ellis, and I think I have something to add to his argument. Ellis, in a post titled “A Proprietary Web? Blame the W3C”, discussed the issue of whether proprietary companies such as Adobe, with Flash, or Microsoft, with Silverlight, enhance the web or subvert it by popularizing technology that don’t conform to free and open web standards. Ellis’ argument was that its not the fault of Adobe and Microsoft for striking off in independent directions so much as the W3C, whose last major standardization effort (XHTML 1.1) was in 2001. Faced with a web that, in the words of Ellis, “has become increasingly stale for modern web development needs,” Flash and Silverlight fill a void left in the development architecture most closely associated with the most common communications medium in existence.

I have trouble, however, blaming the W3C for lack of speed, as speed is not supposed to be a criterion applied to the work of standardization committees. Their real job is to assemble the accrued knowledge related to a problem domain, refine it through a distillation process whose aim is to make the technology logically consistent and reusable, and package it for general consumption through a system designed to popularize it.

That work is, by its very nature, slow-moving. Furthermore, it’s also a process that of necessity lags the technological cutting edge by many, many years. A standard that tried to predict what technology will do in the future would be like historians writing theories about events that haven’t happened yet.

Pushing the boundaries is not the job of a standardization committee. That is the job of private entities striving to figure out how best to apply new technology to existing customers. It is an exploration that runs in parallel, as it works best when multiple companies compete for dominance and market share using cutting-edge technology as the lure which attracts new customers. They make lots of mistakes along the way, but that’s the point. You learn a problem domain by trying lots of different ideas, only some of which will prove useful and correct.

Only when a problem domain has been sufficiently explored and understood is it right for standardization committees to get involved to try to codify what has been learned.

It would make no more sense for the market to confine itself only to technology that is backed by a publicly ratified standard than it would for all of us to confine ourselves to 1850s technology in order to avoid the risk of dependence on new (and possible patented) innovation. I don’t pretend companies are following altruistic motives when they create non-standard technology, but then again, I don’t expect companies to act altruistically. There is a useful byproduct from their efforts, as they add to our collective knowledge of “the right way to do things” that will, eventually, inform a standard committee’s work.

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John Carroll has delivered his opinion on ZDNet since the last millennium. Since May 2008, he is no longer a Microsoft employee. He is currently working at a unified messaging-related startup.

Disclosure

John Carroll

http://blogs.zdnet.com/carroll/?p=1412

Biography

John Carroll

John Carroll has programmed in a wide variety of computing domains, including servers, client PCs, mobile phones and even mainframes. His current specialties are C#, .NET, Java, WIN32/COM and C++, and he has applied those skills in everything from distributed web-based systems to embedded devices. In his spare time, he enjoys the world of digital video, and served as director of photography and editor on a feature-length film produced in Limerick, Ireland, as well as a low-budget production filmed in Los Angeles that used Panavision digital cameras (the same ones used by George Lucas in the later Star Wars episodes).

John worked in Microsoft's Mediaroom division from May, 2005 to May, 2008. He is co-founder of ForgetMeNot Software, a creator of unified messaging software targeted at telecommunications providers, where he currently works as Director of Technology.

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So it was
John Carroll 1st Aug 2008
Fixed it....thanks.
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none issue
mnpundit Updated - 15th Jul 2008
I thought that parts of flash (Flex) were open source and parts of silverlight are too. as these platforms evolve, open standards will be tacked on them. SilverLight, my opinion, really needs HTML display support built in so W3 standards still have a place in the flash and silverlight worlds. in fact, my silverlight applet uses javascript to enable mousewheel support! so everything is entangled, for better or worse!
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Isn't it interesting
CowLauncher 15th Jul 2008
that Flash and Silverlight incorporate some standards yet,
in the end produce this compiled proprietary peanut that
requires their player to run it rather than do everything
with client-side scripting and let the browser be the
player. Client-side stuff is getting better and better.
Modern web browsers are more powerful as multimedia
engines. I kind of think Flash's time in the sun is nearing
the end. And Silverlight...may be too late.

Hopefully someone will start to build serious tools that
designers and developers can use to easily build non-
proprietary client-side applications.
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Tools may already be here.
storm14k 16th Jul 2008
I know at least the Jscript libraries to do these things EASILY are here NOW. You basically just need Flash to play video. The rest comes down to overkill and over-engineering as to why some people want all these additional elaborate solutions. The real question is just how much of all this WOW you actually need in applications that aren't entertainment centered.
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- How is "the W3C isn't to blame" related to "How Flash will save the web?". May as well have titled this "Latest phone pix from Paris Hilton."
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Easy
John Carroll 15th Jul 2008
...the success of Flash and Silverlight has a direct bearing on the evolution of standards which drive the web. The title is flashier than that, but that's the point.
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Nice bit of ambiguity
Yagotta B. Kidding 15th Jul 2008
the success of Flash and Silverlight has a direct bearing on the evolution of standards which drive the web.

Well, yes, but not a positive one.

Note that Adobe was a big sponsor of SVG (a pioneering graphics format, please note) until they acquired Macromedia -- now they've withdrawn their supporting products and rather than contributing to standards efforts they're if anything hindering them.
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Haste makes waste.
bjbrock 15th Jul 2008
OOXML was fast tracked and it will be a standard that is never adopted. Everything that gets fast tracked ends up riddled with problems. Proprietary solutions are on their way out when it comes to the Internet. Even a company the size of MS can't deal with the complexities of the Internet. To do it right today it takes a community.
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Just because some agenda loaded organizations hijack internet standard and play their little games doesn't mean the other companies have to quit innovating.
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Many years behind
Yagotta B. Kidding 15th Jul 2008
I have trouble, however, blaming the W3C for lack of speed, as speed is not supposed to be a criterion applied to the work of standardization committees.

[...]

That work is, by its very nature, slow-moving. Furthermore, it???s also a process that of necessity lags the technological cutting edge by many, many years.

Ummm ... right.
http://www.jedec.org/download/search/JESD79-3B.pdf
or
http://www.jedec.org/download/search/JESD2051.pdf

Or for that matter IEEE 802's 20 Gb/s variant. Do you see any proprietary 20 Gb/s network kit on the store shelves paving the way for a slow-moving standards body?

John, I understand your need to see proprietary efforts as the pioneers that break ground for the plodding standards, but life isn't nearly as simplistic as you would have it.
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Proprietary standards
techconc 15th Jul 2008
The benefit of the web is that it's open to all platforms,
etc. Once we start pushing proprietary standards, we lose
much more than we gain.

For those thinking the web is getting stale, perhaps you
should take a look at what people are doing with Ajax and
Javascript these days. I see much more interesting things
happening with Javascript than I do with Silverlight or
Flash. Further, why is there no mention of the work being
done with HTML 5? How about the advances of CSS over
the years? I suppose if you're still using IE6 you are
missing the boat on the newer trends as IE in general has
been horrible at supporting actual standards compliance.
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Wasn't this whole RIA thing started from the day Sun shipped Java Applet 13 years ago? Why is it now Adobe and MSFT have to be blamed for doing the same thing in a better way? Let's face it, HTML is designed to show document online instead of building capable web apps. Ajax provides partial solutions but it's hack after hack and not sth you wanna build decent web apps upon. Don't believe me? Try design a multithreaded application with javascript and tell me how much hack you have to go through. And that's just one of the many problems associated with HTML/JAVASCRIPT combo. If it's broken, let's fix it. Concerns over "being proprietary" are just fud. End users don't care as long as it works.
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Oh yeah....
bportlock 16th Jul 2008
.... java applets were such a roaring success that Flash and Silverlight had to be developed. Seriously - where do you see java applets on web pages? They are very rare.

Flash - best limited to advertising

Silverlight - what's that? A brand of fluorescent lighting?
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It looks to me like he said proprietary standards are a bad thing and I agree. Maybe thats why Java Applets failed along with a lack of a need for them.

And it looks like you're headed right into the over-engineering that I mentioned in another post.I'd really like a use case for why you want to have a multi-threaded ajax app. This sounds like more FUD than proprietary concerns. Users may not know what proprietary means but they DO care if it works or not. And when browser W can render site X because developer Y decided to use proprietary tech Z they will definitely have something to say as history has already shown.
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Wow, save the web. I wish I could spell hyperbole.
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Open Data
modicr@... Updated - 15th Jul 2008
It's very simple: Only open access to data will save the web ...
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Because they're not open and standardized, and as cream
on the mashed potatoes, are in all practical meaning
windoze only.

I've experimented with the tools for flash on my Mac and it
was a horrible experience, plus that the flash-animations
themselves are very slow to run because of a poorly
developed browser plugin.

Hmmm.... Microsoft wants to own the web to make more
money out of it, i.e. it's a good idea to be very sceptical
about Silverlight which of course will work best in windoze
in the future too.

Remember, openness and real standards are not just
popular words, it's what the internet is all about and
should continue to be. Don't let Adobe or more likely
Microsoft destroy this!
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YAWN...nt
ItsTheBottomLine 17th Jul 2008
nt
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The web needs saving?
storm14k 16th Jul 2008
If it does its actually FROM Silverlight and Flash. The web has already saved itself twice from Flash and ActiveX as users simply didn't see the need for stuff sliding all over the place and expanding from glowing boxes or websites gaining control of their computer. Silverlight is just a reinvention of the same thing people obviously have not wanted. Flash is great for ads and entertainment but outside of that its not needed.

What will save the web (once again as if its in danger) is adherence to standards so that developers can take full advantage of its greatest benefit...write once...run wherever there is a browser. And to be honest this is what will save IE as most other browsers are in line with standards. Alot of this RIA/desktop integration stuff is crap. We have desktop apps that connect to servers now with WebStart and No touch (or whatever MS calls it) and it STILL doesn't provide a better experience than the modern web app. So lets see how XAML and JavaFX fare vs simple HTML, CSS and Javascript. I'm willing to bet they won't stand up either.

Most of this "saving" is all about entertainment glitz and glamour and has little to do with getting things accomplished. I don't think many good app developers are seeking some new technology advance. Whats here now gets the job done fine as it is.
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Typo
Anton Philidor 16th Jul 2008
Quoting:

Disagreeing is a heck of a lot easier to do than disagree (a principle to which ZDNet Talkbackers may relate) because it gives you more to talk about.
[End quote.]

I disagree.

Agreeing is easier, because of the opportunity to identify implications which necessarily follow from the agreement.

For example, take the statement: The web should be open. Anyone who agrees must also agree that "open" means it may be used as people choose to use it. People usually choose to make money when they can. Advertising on the web is an obvious way to make money.

Therefore, to say "The web should be open." is to say "Advertising should be rife on the web." Which in turn means unfettered advertiusing is good.

Simple.
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Why have standards?
Anton Philidor 16th Jul 2008
The obvious answer is to produce a common resource of benefit to all. A good example is the network effect of Windows. (That means developers of applications write for Windows because everyone has Windows and everyone has Windows because of the applications.)

Another example is when competitors agree to fix an aspect of the product on which they don't compete in order to facilitate use of all products (or at least the competition winner products) by many people.

In both cases, notice, a general interest is being served.

A pseudo-standard is an agreement which directly excludes an existing competitor's selling point. That's competition by other means, and of benefit only to a cabal.

It's arguable that the W3C has promulgated pseudo-standards intended only to intervene in markets.

Rather than considering standards only conveniences, I suggest you first consider their commercial impact. The participants in standard setting have probably often done so.
I am a pragmatist, a pratical, in the trenches developer, where my big concern is not how ideally the web should have evolved, but given how it HAS evolved, how can I leverage what's out there to the best benefit of my customers and their visitors.

With that in mind, I try to stay away from biases like "flash is bad" and instead try to ask how we might be able to re-think the use of such technologies (because admittedly it's been pretty bad in the past!) and give it a rebirth, a renaissance if you will, where technology is given a fresh look and the freedom to be used to solve new problems in better ways than before.

I think flash and silverlight fit that bill really well. And I don't care to be in the hip crowd where it's popular to speak down against the big proprietary evil giants.

For instance, I've released a set of projects called "flensed" which is a way to use "micro-swf's" (tiny, sometimes invisible swf's) to accomplish specific, helpful tasks on sites (http://www.flensed.com/).

I think the web world would be better if we'd all stop clammoring to try and get a word in edge-wise on the ideal "standards" of the future, and started putting that effort into figuring out what we do have and what it can really do!
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I like Silverlight chances!!
1g2j Updated - 17th Jul 2008
JavaScript was too buggy and slow loading. Thats why developers stopped using it as often.

HTML wasn't meant for multimedia. It was meant for text, pictures, and raw Audio/Video.

Flash was meant for advertising but evolved as an great tool for video. It do not have DRM built into it. Thats why its not going to last.

Delivering content on the web is moving toward being DRM'ed by the media industry so I like Silverlight chances.

I didn't look at the Silverlight SDK yet but its an strong possibilty that Microsoft is adding DRM to all software due to its trying to transform into an consumer electronic/media company. They need as many friends as possible.
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DRM sucks
bastien@... 17th Jul 2008
And more and more music is drm free now...its still in video because the media companies were able to force the cd/dvd device makers to embed the ecnryption tech into the players.
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open lazlo anyone? while it uses the adobe flash engine, its open source and freely available...m$ sucks anyway
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These are all just tools!
sshrews 17th Jul 2008
Standards schmandards.

When you're working on your computer and you need to remove a phillips head screw, you don't glare at the phillips head screwdriver laying there on the table, mutter "I hate you," and pick up a flat head screwdriver to try and make it work.

You use the tool that's best for the job.

Most sites work fine with HTML and CSS; using Javascript for client-side stuff like form validation is nice. You don't have to do the whole freakin' site in Javascript, you just use it for what it's good for.

Same with Flash. Sometimes a client wants something that can't be done with HTML/CSS. What, I'm supposed to lecture them that Flash isn't a W3C standard, so I can't possibly code their site to make their crap fly around?

That would be bad business on my part.
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very astute
coffeeshark 18th Jul 2008
It's amusing to think of 'phillips head fanboys", but that's what the flash vs javascript vs ajax vs silverlight vs html5 has turned out to be.

thanks for a meaningful, real post, sshrews. You code according to need, not according to a set of standards set by a committee.

People pick up one skill, and then defend that skill to the death to the exclusion of any other. It's natural, but limiting.

Flash is not just an advertising medium. Silverlight is not just an alternative to Flash. We can't sit around waiting for standards to be set by some governing committee before we produce work.

When Flash came out, we designed websites to work with Flash, and without. A lot of people wouldn't install Flash at that time. Silverlight will be similar - this Olympics thing will push the installation base to a much higher level, and it will become a more viable and known option.

I stopped caring about open standards a long time ago. I'll leave that to the evangelists, and just get back to work.
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If brevity is the soul of wit...
wmlundine 17th Jul 2008
...John Carroll is not well heeled.
J. Caroll
He may not work for microsoft anymore but he's still a microsoft shill.
no one else would even care about silverlight one whit?
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Then you won't be watching the Olympics
John Carroll 17th Jul 2008
...on your computer. Streamed over Silverlight.
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I think not. Flash is significant, Silverlight is too little too late. Furthermore, according to ZDNet the iPhone is the center of the universe and MS tech never really liked Apples.

Either way, HTML will always be a more inviting format than any close standard alternative. More devices will support it, and more people (of varying abilities... cough 508... cough...) will be able to access it.
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Silverlight runs on Safari
John Carroll 17th Jul 2008
Safari runs on iPhone. Whether Apple has installed the libraries on an iPhone is a different issue, but it isn't because Safari doesn't support Silverlight.
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2001? Look again.
Mitch 74 18th Jul 2008
SVG was published and refined in 2001, 2004, and again in 2008 (erratum following the Acid3 test uncovering a few spec errors).

ECMAscript (Javascript 2) is in the finalizing stage (you'll notice that while Mozilla, Opera and KDE/Adobe already support Javascript 1.5 to 1.8, Microsoft is still at Javascript 1.2); the two put together already allow a lot of what Flash (which uses an ECMAscript compatible language, which was freed a few months ago, under control of Mozilla) can do.

Guess which major browser doesn't support less than 10-years old Javascript, and doesn't support SVG? There's only one.

When you say that the W3C hasn't published anything since 2001, look again: they did.

By the way, IE still doesn't support XHTML (published in 1999, finalized in 2001) - it supports XHTML-parsed-as-HTML tag soup (meaning, XHTML 1.0 sent as text/html, not as is proper, application/xhtml+xml).

You're right when you say that the W3C's role is to set in 'stone' practices validated by the industry; there is however a big bully out there that can't read what's written in stone. Said bully just created Silverlight (Flash is 'less bad', because it is already largely freed, predates W3C efforts and tries to get closer to its recommendations).
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What's the point of standards...
kingpawn@... 18th Jul 2008
if they're several years behind the current technology? Tech that old too obsolete to be relevant. The function of standards should be to clarify EMERGING technology so that it can be adopted more quickly and users can get on with using instead of bickering.
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Should the last word in the following phrase be "agree", without the "dis"?
"Disagreeing is a heck of a lot easier to do than disagree"
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So it was
John Carroll 1st Aug 2008
Fixed it....thanks.

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