Is AMD about to take up ARM?

Summary: Several recent stories have jump-started rumors that AMD may adopt ARM. This might be the fastest and least-costly way to develop a chip for tablets, but there are lots of reasons why AMD may decide it's safer to stick with x86.

Several recent stories have jump-started rumors that AMD will design and sell a processor based on ARM's technology. This would arguably be the fastest and least-costly way for AMD to develop a competitive chip for smartphones and tablets. But there are also lots of reasons why AMD may decide it's safer to stick with x86 for now.

The rumors began with reports that AMD was looking for engineers to work on Android. Then AMD announced this week that an ARM official would deliver a keynote at its first Fusion Developer Summit this June. Finally during a quarterly earnings call this week ARM execs confirmed they have long been courting AMD. "AMD is a company that is very capable of deploying ARM technology," CFO Tim Score said.

ARM is now downplaying the comments, but there is no doubt that AMD now sees mobile devices as a big opportunity. At one time AMD had a division that developed technology for mobile devices but it sold the unit in 2009 to Qualcomm, which now uses the graphics cores in its Snapdragon processors. This was part of broader strategy, which also included spinning off its manufacturing into a separate company known as GlobalFoundries, to focus on AMD's core market of x86 processors for PCs and servers and high-end graphics.

Then earlier this year AMD abruptly changed course. The board dismissed CEO Dirk Meyer reportedly because it felt management wasn't moving quickly enough on a strategy for mobile devices.

Both Intel and more recently AMD have been developing x86 processors that use less power--at the expense of performance--in an attempt to get into smaller devices. Intel's Atom chip created the netbook category, but so far it has made little headway with tablets and smartphones. Earlier this month Intel announced a new Atom platform, code-named Oak Trail, for tablets running Android, Windows and MeeGo. Intel manufactures these Atom processors using an older 45nm process, but it believes future 32nm designs will be suitable for high-end smartphones.

Meanwhile AMD designed a low-power Fusion platform, code-named Brazos, based on an APU (Accelerated Processing Unit) that combines a CPU and Radeon graphics on a single chip. There are two Brazos APUs, the C-Series (Ontario) and E-Series (Zacate), both manufactured by TSMC, a semiconductor foundry in Taiwan, using 40nm process technology. AMD has sold more than 4 million of these low-power APUs, but like Atom nearly all of them are going into netbooks and low-end notebooks, not tablets.

Like Intel, AMD could continue to work on its x86 platform, moving it to a more advanced 28nm process at either TSMC or GlobalFoundries to reduce power and porting it to Android, in order to make it a more compelling tablet solution. AMD already has some 28nm prototypes, some of which may be the Krishna and Witchita APUs that will replace the C- and E-Series, respectively, in 2012. Or it could switch to ARM, an entirely different architecture.

ARM isn't a fabless chip designer like AMD (or Nvidia) nor is it a manufacture like Intel. Rather it develops the recipes for processor cores and supporting technologies and licenses them to companies that design chips. The vast majority of tablets and smartphones already use ARM-based processors. Furthermore ARM already works closely with TSMC and GlobalFoundries--AMD's two partners--to make sure its technology works well with their manufacturing process down to 20nm. So it should be relatively easy for AMD to come up with a competitive 28nm ARM-based SoC (System-on-Chip) for tablets and smartphones, leapfrogging Intel.

It looks good on paper and it must be tempting, but there are several reasons why AMD may not go down this road.

First, the time and resources required to develop an ARM SoC depend on whether you simply want something off the shelf or need to add your own special sauce. A small fabless company in China can license ARM's cores and Mali graphics (many of them are doing just that) and have a decent prototype SoC from TSMC in a little more than six months. But Qualcomm spent years developing its ARM-based Snapdragon because it is highly customized. AMD wouldn't need to build an SoC from the ground up like Qualcomm, but it would almost certainly want to use its own Radeon graphics, and that integration would take real work.

Second, ARM is a RISC design that uses a different instruction set. Microsoft's recent announcement that it would develop versions of Windows 8 and the Office productivity apps for ARM is a big win for the platform, but AMD would still need to do a lot of software development whether it chose Android, Windows or both. Many semiconductor companies such as Marvell are even taking things a step further and adding their own platform and apps supposedly to help customers differentiate their Android devices.

In short, it takes a lot of hardware and software engineering to support two different architectures. Even Intel couldn't juggle both x86 and ARM, and ended up selling its XScale PXA mobile processors to Marvell in 2006. Since AMD already has a promising low-power x86 platform, it could make more sense to focus its limited resources there.

But the biggest issue may be that the market for mobile application processors--while growing at a rapid rate--is already very crowded. AMD would need a new salesforce that knows how to sell application processors to companies such as HTC, LG Electronics, Motorola, Nokia, RIM and Samsung. And they would be competing not just with Intel, but with Marvell, Nvidia, Qualcomm, Samsung and Texas Instruments--all of whom offer high-performance ARM SoCs. It takes a long time to design and qualify a tablet or smartphone-unlike a PC--so once handset makers choose a processor line they tend to stick with it. The experiences of both Intel and Nvidia show just how hard it is to break in to this world.

Ultimately AMD doesn't have to choose.

In the short term, it will almost certainly continue to develop its low-power x86 APUs, which already have some traction. The C-Series seems like a good fit not only for netbooks but other mobile devices and if AMD can get Android running on it--like Intel has done with Oak Trail--you could see it or its successor, Krishna, in a few tablets over the next 12 to 18 months.

In the long-term, AMD could also offer an SoC that combines ARM Cortex-A9 or Cortex-A15 cores with Radeon graphics to get into more tablets, as well as high-end smartphones and other consumer electronics. This would give AMD a product line that covers the entire continuum from handsets all the way up to servers. But even if they ultimately do it, it will take time and I don't expect to see an ARM-based processor from AMD in a tablet anytime soon.

Topics: Hardware, Android, Google, Intel, Laptops, Mobility, Processors, Tablets

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21 comments
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  • RE: Is AMD about to take up ARM?

    A merger would be a very good idea.
    Alan Smithie
  • holding course...we need some speedy PCs and Laptops

    while the mobile market may be hot, it isn't where work is done. There are a ton of people creating content and doing real work on PCs and Laptops...AMD should hold the course and get some 6 and 8 core PC and Laptops out on the market with APU architecture. If they can fit it on a tablet great but the mobile phone market isn't where work gets done, its where content gets consumed. Hope AMD will hold its course, I need a new laptop soon to do some real work and I'd love to have an 8 core with 16 GB of RAM so I could run some virtual environments on there...I know a few dozen others that would love something similar.
    GeiselS@...
    • No worries

      @GeiselS@...

      The A series APU's with Radeon HD 66x0 gfx are going to arrive for back-to-school (Fall) in dual and quad core varieties. Bulldozer with up to 8 cores will also arrive later in the year.

      AMD is playing all angles here. The Fusion APU is the first worthwhile "x86 SoC" (Atom aside). They see the future as being of heterogenous processor architecture. Adding ARM instructions makes sense for where it works: smaller devices, possibly with customized device operating systems. If they do make an ARM processor, you can bet that Radeon graphics will be a big feature. Windows 8 support for ARM will also allow for a lot of options, as does Windows support for DirectX and Direct3D, which is what Radeon graphics are optimized for.

      Let's just do a comparison here:

      AMD is good for:
      x86
      ARM (potentially)
      energy efficient graphics
      CPU+DX11 GPU in one chip
      reliable chipsets with decent integrated video
      under $300 6-core processors
      under $100 4-core processors

      Intel is good for:
      x86
      that's about it....
      Joe_Raby
    • RE: Is AMD about to take up ARM?

      @GeiselS@... I agree. The future is all about virtual environments.
      ITOdeed
    • I already got me an AMD 6 core, 16gb, 2TB PC...

      and I opted to get that over an Intel i7 PC which would've cost me a lot more with just 1TB hard-drive and 8gb main memory. Smartphones and tablets are not for productivity, and neither are screens or monitors of less than 17 inches. My PC has a 24 inch monitor and I'm really looking to get multi-monitors to get more work done. I couldn't do what I have in mind with small screen laptops or PCS, and certainly not with tablets or smartphones.
      adornoe
      • Productivity

        @ adornoe@...

        It depends on what your job is. If you spend a lot of time reading (emails, papers, presentations, proposals, etc.), a slate form factor can be very convenient -- even more so if you travel frequently. A slate is much more convenient on a train or a plane than a laptop if you're mostly reading and annotating.

        For decent annotating, a stylus is essential, which is a weak point for both the iPad and Android slates (amongst many others in the latter case). If I were running Microsoft, I'd focus on giving Windows 8 the best reading/writing/annotating experience possible, both for PDFs and Office documents (including e-mails). It might help to add e-books too, in collaboration with Amazon. Microsoft have a huge technical lead on handwriting support, and should take advantage of it.

        If the Windows 8 PDF viewer doesn't include very good PDF annotation support (with a keyboard or a stylus) and the best reading experience on any slate, I'll be disappointed.
        WilErz
  • Why not?

    Besides the mobile market, AMD might be considering another option. I have speculated that there are diminishing returns from just building processors with more and more identical cores. Do we really need 8 or 16 or 24 x86 cores on a desktop machine? What would it look like to have say 4 high end cores matched up with a number of simpler, specialized cores to handle house keeping tasks? Would not the ARM architecture be perfect for that scenario? Perhaps AMD is just looking ahead.
    itpro_z
  • What would Microsoft do?

    Before Microsoft would undertake the significant effort to port Windows and Office to the ARM architecture, they will have studied to death the issue of whether Intel, AMD, or both will arrive in Mobile Device Space with an x86 offering that can compete with the best ARM chips in terms of cost, performance, and battery life.

    They will have had access to the chipmakers' best scientists, their top roadmappers, the fab guys... everybody who could shed light on this issue. Because for Microsoft, this is a life-or-death deal.

    The fact that Microsoft has now publicly announced that they will invest the resources to port Windows and Office to ARM tells us that they have concluded that neither Intel nor AMD has a realistic plan to make much of a dent in the mobile device world using x86.

    For a variety of reasons, probably mostly involving the size of the instruction decoder on an x86 CPU, the battery consumption is just never going to go as low as can be achieved by ARM. In theory there might be some breakthrough 'escape hatch,' but that's what Microsoft would have been dying to hear about... and they didn't.

    So if AMD decides to pass on the opportunity to become a player in the ARM world, they have most likely hitched their wagon to the World Of The Cloud, where the big boxes will still reign. That's where IBM went, and they have a pretty good record of guessing right on these disruptive technologies.
    Robert Hahn
    • Wait for Windows 8 benchmarks

      @Robert Hahn

      It will be a long time before x86 loses relevance, plus you have FPU and GPU performance on x86 platforms that you just don't have on ARM SoC chips. And what about 64-bit support?
      Joe_Raby
      • RE: Is AMD about to take up ARM?

        @Joe_Raby
        I don't think anyone is suggesting that x86 will "lose relevance," only that it may not be the best design to take into an arena that rewards low power consumption. I'm sure Microsoft took into account floating point and graphic performance, and the roadmap for the next 10 years, and still came away thinking that they'd better bite the bullet and get their cash cows onto the ARM platform. They will not have taken that decision lightly; it will introduce more complexity and expense than a little bit.
        Robert Hahn
      • RE: Is AMD about to take up ARM?

        @Joe_Raby

        Issue is with AMD's inability to compete on all lucrative fronts on x86.

        Fusion is just another dead-end down the road of "Cheaper AMDs versus Intel x86".

        IMO, AMD should focus on enterprise x86 consumption more than ever, since such buyers are more price/performance conscious.

        They should also attempt to think ahead of the competition instead of following bandwagons (especially with their slow rate of response to markets).
        croncron85
    • RE: Is AMD about to take up ARM?

      @Robert Hahn my take is that MS just wants a piece of the ARM pie. As far as Atom goes, Intel's approach at power savings is very different. The idea is to create a processor with ultra low idle power. Almost everything can be disabled or clocked at very low frequencies. When you need performance you run the processor flat out and then get back to idle state asap. The ability to make this transition quickly is the secret sauce. This "bursting: approach is why Intel believes they will soon have Atoms in cellphones. After all most of the time you don't need the CPU.
      DevGuy_z
      • How big a piece?

        <ul><I>MS just wants a piece of the ARM pie.</I></ul>To justify what they are doing, they have to want a piece of the <b>tablet</b> ARM pie. The 'phone' ARM pie -- which is most of the pie -- is addressed by WP. Here they are talking about porting over tons of code -- not just Windows the OS but the utilities, the dev tools, internal stuff we don't even know about -- and maintaing two variants of the code base forevermore. That is neither simple nor cheap. If there were any way to get out of doing it, they would.

        What could be at stake? Let's say that when it flattens out, the "tablet" market is running around 200 million units per year. Apple has 80 million of those so they are off the table. Let's say HP and RIM grab another 10 million each, and let's give Microsoft a break by positing that Android on tablets never meets expectations, garnering around 60 million. So that leaves 40 million tablets that Microsoft might reasonably get with Windows,

        My point is that if Microsoft believed that Intel and/or AMD could grab even half of those with x86, it wouldn't make economic sense to make ARM versions of all the Windows and Office code just to address another 20 million licenses. They would only take on that much hassle if they think the whole 40 million available-to-get depend on ARM.
        Robert Hahn
      • Much less complex than you're implying

        @ Robert Hahn

        First, NT was designed on Risc (Mips R4000), not x86, and has always been portable, so porting it to Arm isn't a tremendous undertaking. Second, Microsoft have had Arm development tools for CE for years, so they don't need to write new compilers or anything like that.

        Applications like Office may have some x86 dependencies, but probably not many. The first 32-bit version of Microsoft Office was Office 4.2 for Windows NT, which shipped in 1994 for all four NT architectures (x86, Mips, Alpha and PowerPC). Office/Alpha lived through Office 97, and was probably developed until NT/Alpha was cancelled in 1999, shortly before NT 5.0 shipped as Windows 2000.

        1999 is a long time ago, but Office is probably still based on the same code-base, and with Itanium and x64 coming into the picture around the same time Alpha exited, it's unlikely Office suddenly became excessively x86-centric. Supporting Arm should be a lot less complicated than porting to 64-bit Windows was.

        Windows 8 will be targeting tablets, but Microsoft's master plan may call for eventually unifying Windows Phone and desktop Windows, with both running the NT kernel. Given that modern mobile phones are much more powerful than the early workstations NT was developed on, that should be technically achievable.

        Finally, there's no reason to assume Apple's piece of the pie can't be taken away either. Look at what happened to the Mac in the 90s. Apple dominated the music player market with the iPod, but it's still early days in the tablet, and even smartphone markets. Apple are in a good position, and may be able to maintain a high market share, but it's by no means given.
        WilErz
    • Not at all

      This is classic Microsoft, as they were in the 80s/90s, when they tried to support everything that looked remotely viable, and even had divisions within the firm competing against each other, e.g. Dos/Windows, OS/2 and NT (called NT OS/2), then Dos/Windows and NT (renamed to Windows NT). Now there's only Windows NT, but if Microsoft were sticking to their old ways, the NT and CE (Windows Phone) teams would be fiercely competing to see who could offer the better evolution of the slate to beat Apple (NT scaling down from existing PCs/Tablets and CE scaling up).

      In the 80s/90s, Microsoft were hardly wedded to the x86 on the desktop either: NT was always portable, but started on the Intel i860 (the Intel N-Ten, hence NT OS). When the i860 couldn't deliver the necessary performance, Microsoft switched to Mips, with an additional port to x86. Alpha and PowerPC both looked like contenders, so NT was ported to them too. One by one, Mips, PowerPC and Alpha failed on the desktop, leaving only x86, but if any of the Riscs had beaten x86, Microsoft would have been ready.

      One of Microsoft's biggest mistakes in recent years was arguably to fail to port desktop Windows to Arm sooner. With the continuing migration to smaller PCs and other devices, Intel's triumph over the Riscs wasn't quite as solid as it must have looked ten years ago. If Microsoft had noticed this sooner, they might have had something competitive with the iPad. Since existing Windows tablets were basically laptop-level hardware, with the resultant power and weight requirements, they were blind-sided by Apple's Arm-based iPad, and are paying the price.

      PS Combining the terms 'good record' and 'IBM' in a sentence about disruptive technology is rather curious. They were a laggard in minicomputers, where DEC dominated, nearly got killed by Compaq and the other clone vendors in the PC market and were again a laggard behind Sun (and others) in the Unix workstation and server markets. Their technology was almost always amongst the best, but brought down by inept management. The only thing that kept IBM afloat was the firm's sheer size, and the inertia of the mainframe market, which held up long enough for Gerstner to arrive to turn things round and focus on services (which is more or less what they've been doing since).
      WilErz
      • Here it comes again

        @WilErz <ul><i>Combining the terms 'good record' and 'IBM' in a sentence about disruptive technology is rather curious.</i></ul>
        IBM has lived through two world wars, the Great Depression, technology transitions from mechanical to electromechanical, from electromechanical to vacuum tubes, from tubes to transistors, from bipolar to CMOS, to integrated circuits, to microprocessors, to submicron geometry, to nanometer geometries.

        Those are a lot of punches to take and still be standing. AT&T is the only other one I can think of that's done it. NCR got close, but they got "AT&T'd".
        Robert Hahn
      • Survival does not imply success

        @ Robert Hahn

        In other words, they're relatively old and they've survived. So have Siemens, Daimler, GE and any number of other large firms across Europe and North America -- and I'll remind you that German industry (including Siemens and Daimler) suffered much more during the two world wars than US industry, including confiscation of patents etc. by the victors.

        IBM used to absolutely dominate the computer industry. They don't any longer, don't even come close. Decline from almost absolute market dominance before minicomputers to being merely a peer of upstart Hewlett-Packard, without a dominant CPU architecture or operating system, and with no influence at all in important segments (PCs, tablets, smartphones) can hardly be called success. If that's a good record, what's a bad one? Insolvency?
        WilErz
  • RE: Is AMD about to take up ARM?

    long-term is an adjective because of the hyphenation; &#8218;long term&#8219; should have been used
    mediumcool
    • RE: Is AMD about to take up ARM?

      @mediumcool

      I was trying to get the punctuation right, turkeys!
      mediumcool
  • AMD should do this

    If I were running AMD, I'd support Arm as quickly as possible, without letting up at all on x86. Netbooks or even laptops running Windows 8 on AMD/Arm could give the firm a clear advantage over Intel, for customers who are more concerned about size and power consumption than performance.
    WilErz