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Emil Protalinski
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Two teenagers arrested for Facebook posts inciting UK riots

By | August 10, 2011, 1:31pm PDT

Summary: Two teenagers appeared in court today in connection with messages they posted on Facebook allegedly encouraging people to riot in the UK.

Update: 10 more have been arrested.

Scotland Yard vowed to track down and arrest protesters who posted “really inflammatory, inaccurate” messages on Facebook, and now it has delivered. Two teenagers appeared in court today in connection with messages posted on Facebook allegedly encouraging people to start rioting.

16-year-old Alexander McQuarrie showed up at Glasgow Sheriff Court today after being arrested on Tuesday afternoon following an operation by Strathclyde Police in Ibrox, Glasgow. He was charged with encouraging others to riot in the city and accused of breaching the peace by creating a Facebook Group.

18-year-old Liam Allan appeared at Dundee Sheriff Court under similar accusations. He was arrested in connection with Facebook posts encouraging others to show up in Dundee city centre with weapons and cause disturbances.

The police is of course still working to identify others who may be inciting people to cause public disorder. The BBC reports social networks are being monitored closely and “decisive action” will be taken to prevent violence.

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Facebook, Glasgow, Sheriff, London, Social Media, Emil Protalinski

Emil Protalinski has covered the tech industry for five years for multiple publications.

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Emil Protalinski

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Biography

Emil Protalinski

Emil Protalinski has covered the tech industry for five years for multiple publications, including Neowin for two years and Ars Technica for three years. He has written 1,000s of articles for both, with a particular focus on scrutinizing Microsoft products and services. Recently, Emil has expanded his coverage to non-Microsoft technologies, including the social networking giant Facebook.

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RE: Two teenagers arrested for Facebook posts inciting UK riots
non-biased 15th Aug
@thombone What makes you think you have the right to demand the proof? The only ones that have the right to demand the proof are the teens and their legal representatives. Of course they are going to demand the proof and it if is good enough for the judge the case will proceed regardless of what you think about it.
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RE: Two teenagers arrested for Facebook posts inciting UK riots
lschw1 10th Aug
It seems to me this article is missing example images of the facebook posts so we can judge their criminality. Not doing so makes this article boring.
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RE: Two teenagers arrested for Facebook posts inciting UK riots
npchilds@... 10th Aug
@lschw1 Do you need pictures of a corpse whenever someone is charged with murder so you can 'judge their criminality'?
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RE: Two teenagers arrested for Facebook posts inciting UK riots
ColdFusion_z 10th Aug
@npchilds@... yeah....because that's the same thing...
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RE: Two teenagers arrested for Facebook posts inciting UK riots
Agozyen 11th Aug
@npchilds@...

Context~ They are being charged with inciting a riot. The London police are having a hard time wrapping their heads around social networking and are looking for ways of controlling the flow of information.
We need the post to put things in context. If he posted something like "Yo free TVs @ Macy's let'g go!" then there is no way I would judge that as inciting a riot.
Also, to use your example of needing a photo, proof of death is generally required to get a murder conviction. In this case, along with the quote, I would be interested in how many people actually viewed their posts. This would go a long way towards proving whether or not he played any part in getting people to riot.
It's entirely possible that some or all are being made examples of.
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RE: Two teenagers arrested for Facebook posts inciting UK riots
Pennybags 11th Aug
@npchilds@...

"Really inflammatory, inaccurate information" is up to interpretation. Whether or not a body is dead most often isn't.
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You're totally right!
archetuthus 10th Aug
@lschw1 It's easy for police and reporters to characterize others' words as ?really inflammatory, inaccurate? messages.

But I like hard evidence. The Web is alive with allegations and unsupported clap-trap. Journalists today need to document more thoroughly. They are no longer trusted as they once were.

I don't disbelieve the police. I just want to know what message content is--in today's world of Web wackos wielding wildly worded weapons of mass misinformation--considered ?really inflammatory, [and] inaccurate.?
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RE: Two teenagers arrested for Facebook posts inciting UK riots
SocratesMentor Updated - 10th Aug
As a Journalist myself, I must say...
I TOTALLY AGREE!!!
Wish Uncle Walt (Walter Cronkite Jr) was here with us now to report the state of affairs.
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RE: Two teenagers arrested for Facebook posts inciting UK riots
bargeemike 10th Aug
@lschw1 The police are not about to make public sub judice evidence and blow any chance of a successful prosecution.
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RE: Two teenagers arrested for Facebook posts inciting UK riots
geminixx 10th Aug
@lschw1

the article is informing us, not asking "We" to judge.
Only the law courts, and apparently Nancy Grace can judge.
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RE: Two teenagers arrested for Facebook posts inciting UK riots
SocratesMentor Updated - 10th Aug
Is she (Nancy Grace) still alive? I thought she was killed in the last allied bombing that killed the 2nd in command of the Al Quida last week?!
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RE: Two teenagers arrested for Facebook posts inciting UK riots
SocratesMentor Updated - 10th Aug
What I find interesting is, when people used Facebook and Twitter in Egypt, Syria, Libya and the rest of the middle-east, they were labeled as 'freedom fighters', 'liberators', 'rebels', etc. When kids and adults do it in the western countries, we label them as terrorists... hhhmmm...

While I think the atrocious rioting, looting, turning over of cars and burning of businesses by bored 'futbol' hooligans and the like very wrong... maybe the rest of the people's unrest might be attributed to the fact they are tired of having their taxes being squandered away by incompetent elitists.

More oppression by law enforcement may not work in the long run if the government continues to ignore the wishes of it's people.... for whom they are supposed to serve... even in a monarchy.

But then again... we arrest people for dancing in the Jefferson Memorial in Washington D.C. ... you know... the guy who helped write the US Constitution and Bill of Rights giving us 'Freedom'

Is it me, or does anyone else think we might be seeing a man spraying 'V' for Vendetta on the government walls (NOTE: referencing a movie called V...not 'inciting' anyone to do so.)

(knock knock) I'll be right back...someone's at the door.
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RE: Two teenagers arrested for Facebook posts inciting UK riots
mswift@... 10th Aug
@SocratesMentor
Only right wing politicians are allowed to threaten violence, anybody else gets arrested.
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RE: Two teenagers arrested for Facebook posts inciting UK riots
eLearner 10th Aug
@SocratesMentor 100% This! In the Middle East we've seen "revolutions" but when it happens in our own back yard it's "criminal riots and looting". I am un-convinced that "kids stealing TV's" has managed to maintain just destructive momentum and I await the "truth" to come out in the media. The interesting thing on THIS article are it's implications for free speech online. I've made throw away comments on facebook about the riots. Should I also expect a knock at the door? If I made those same comments at a BBQ with some mates, should someone dob me into the authorities?
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RE: Two teenagers arrested for Facebook posts inciting UK riots
Nahres Updated - 11th Aug
@SocratesMentor
From Cameron's tone, he is trying to appease the public after the horror. The police will definitely try to do the same to compensate for their mediocre performance. However, both are treating the symptoms but not the malaise.

I was shocked to learn that the banking sector of the UK is responsible for 16% of the GDP. The banking sector should not make more than 5% of the GDP. The rest should come from other sectors that create real jobs.

Nowadays, politicians are selcted like you select an FMCG (toothpaste, fizzy drinks, chocolate, lady nappies etc.) through ads and commercials. Once they get to the top, they fall for the pressures of the big guys in the different industries, media companies, and bankers (assuming no self-interest is involved).
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RE: Two teenagers arrested for Facebook posts inciting UK riots
dougbeer 11th Aug
@SocratesMentor The difference between a state like libya and England is that one has an elected government and the other is a dictatorship. you're right about squandered taxes, these people don't pay taxes. They are on the government dole. Freedom does not negate responsiblity, you can't dance in the middle of the street either.
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RE: Two teenagers arrested for Facebook posts inciting UK riots
non-biased 15th Aug
@mswift@... Actually a more accurate statement would be no matter what the right wing politicians say the left wing politicians will claim they are racists and inciting violence.
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RE: Two teenagers arrested for Facebook posts inciting UK riots
SocratesMentor Updated - 10th Aug
shocked
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RE: Two teenagers arrested for Facebook posts inciting UK riots
pv1 11th Aug
@lschw1 It's a good thing that that's not what this article is for...
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RE: Two teenagers arrested for Facebook posts inciting UK riots
dbisse@... 11th Aug
@lschw1 Is it because you don't want to be on the jury? I wished I hadn't read the article now as they might exclude me for being too biased. If you want to read what they said, add them as a friend or go to the courthouse when they are put on trail. Or maybe wikileaks, freedom of information act, CNN... will get you better results.
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RE: Two teenagers arrested for Facebook posts inciting UK riots
non-biased 15th Aug
@lschw1 Unless you are the judge that he is facing not sure where you presume to be able to decide if he committed a crime or not.
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RE: Two teenagers arrested for Facebook posts inciting UK riots
apostate Updated - 10th Aug
Wow. Great barometer for the state of Civil Liberties in the UK. Arrested for Facebooking. No wonder they're pissed off over there.
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RE: Two teenagers arrested for Facebook posts inciting UK riots
Tommy S. 10th Aug
@apostate Not mentioning the ''small'' CCTV network grin
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RE: Two teenagers arrested for Facebook posts inciting UK riots
geminixx 10th Aug
@apostate
you trivialize events. nobody was arrested for 'facebooking'.
Civil liberties come with civil responsibilities.
Even if you are not from 'over there'.
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RE: Two teenagers arrested for Facebook posts inciting UK riots
Mike4920@... 10th Aug
@apostate - So are you also an advocate of 'Freedom of Speech' where you can yell 'Fire' in a threater - even if there is no fire? A court can decide if what was said was truthful. The same court can also decide if the intent was to inform - or to inflame.
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RE: Two teenagers arrested for Facebook posts inciting UK riots
htroup 10th Aug
@apostate There is a difference between "thought crime" and "conspiracy/incitement". It's one reason why a lot of us would like to see some part of the posts. Key words in the description would be things like "bring weapons."

I am usually within the bounds of free speech if I advocate a legal action; to advocate an illegal action is another thing altogether. If I said "let's go to Dundee and protest police actions", that's probably protected. If I said "by commiting violence and mischief", then most likely not.
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RE: Two teenagers arrested for Facebook posts inciting UK riots
DJL64 11th Aug
@htroup Judging by the number of destroyed cash mashines (ATMs) and shop windows I saw (mostly for shops stocking high value or fashionable items) on the way in to work in south London the other day, I doubt it had anything to do with protesting about police actions.
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RE: Two teenagers arrested for Facebook posts inciting UK riots
paul.graville@... 11th Aug
@apostate It's illegal here in the UK to incite violence. Prob. same as everywhere else, no? The fact it's Facebook makes no difference. Why do you think it should?
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RE: Two teenagers arrested for Facebook posts inciting UK riots
zeverssl 10th Aug
First i do not think anyone should incite civil disobedience, however my comment is i do remember hearing how facebook was being used to organize protest in certain middle east countries that either were overthrown or are currently is conflict. To me it is interesting that in one sense it was encouraged and when it cuts close to home people are arrested.
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RE: Two teenagers arrested for Facebook posts inciting UK riots
MJohnstone 10th Aug
@zeverssl

"Disobedience is the true foundation of liberty. The obedient must be slaves." - Thoreau

That said, the usual constraints on public incitement do extend to the Internet. Whether it was said on Facebook or at Speakers Corner makes little difference.
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RE: Two teenagers arrested for Facebook posts inciting UK riots
Tommy S. 10th Aug
@zeverssl Are you really surprised? I am not.
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RE: Two teenagers arrested for Facebook posts inciting UK riots
bitcrazed 10th Aug
@zeverssl - civil disobedience is one thing - sit-ins, peaceful demonstrations, etc are a cornerstone of any healthy democracy.

Inciting others to meet at a given location tooled-up for a fight and to cause criminal damage is quite another.
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RE: Two teenagers arrested for Facebook posts inciting UK riots
SocratesMentor 10th Aug
OK...so I am NOT the only one who sees this. wink
Now if I can only get the 'other' voices out of my head
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RE: Two teenagers arrested for Facebook posts inciting UK riots
Nic Harvard 11th Aug
@zeverssl
I personally am a fan of civil disobedience.
It's a "poor mans right to a referendum" basically.

But the laws and social issues which are being challenged in this particular case are ones which say "Thou shalt not steal"
And the social inequalities being challenged are ones where people are not *GIVEN* enough (as they see it)

A previous poster noted that "it is about people being irritated at the way their taxes are mis-spent by an elite"

The people participating in these riots do not pay taxes - they receive state benefits instead.
I pay taxes - and by virtue of the fact i have a family to look after, and need to be up in the morning to go to work, i wont be found looting shops and smashing ATMs at 04h00.
And if i loose my job, i am unlikely to sit on my fat arse and complain about "immigrants from Poland taking my jobs (which i never had in the first place)"
I'll go find another.
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RE: Two teenagers arrested for Facebook posts inciting UK riots
non-biased 15th Aug
@zeverssl Using Facebook or whatever medium to bring people together for a protest is completely different from bring them together for a riot. There is the difference you seek.
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RE: Two teenagers arrested for Facebook posts inciting UK riots
c4791p@... 10th Aug
geez people. Never heard of "Inciting to Riot", same philosophy applies here.
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RE: Two teenagers arrested for Facebook posts inciting UK riots
puterhermit 10th Aug
@npchilds, no you don't but you do need to provide a corpse.
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RE: Two teenagers arrested for Facebook posts inciting UK riots
non-biased 15th Aug
@puterhermit No you don't. It's harder to get a murder conviction without one but it is not required to get a guilty verdict.
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This is standard situation where political system fails
blackdwarf 10th Aug
This is all standard protocol for a government when the political system is failing. It is even possible that the initial guy was shot deliberately to 1. Test how volatile the underclass of the country is 2. Test how well the police would cope with a situation like Greece. 3. Enable new legislation and weapons to be available to deal with future protests. Yes ordinary members of the public protesting will be treated the same one day.
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RE: Two teenagers arrested for Facebook posts inciting UK riots
mswift@... 10th Aug
@blackdwarf

It is also happening at the same time that Google and Facebook are moving to require use of your meat space identity on line.
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Only in the UK... some things never change...
jared@... 10th Aug
Sounds like something the UK would do.

Blame two teenagers on Facebook for starting riots? GIVE ME A FREAKING BREAK!

"I say old boy, d'you really think two lads could be behind all this?"

"Can't say, old bean, but they're all we have and the Queen says someone must pay. So pay they will. It's not my job to think then, is it mate? Just doin what'm told."

And people rip on the US. Gag me.
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RE: Two teenagers arrested for Facebook posts inciting UK riots
bitcrazed 10th Aug
@jared@... Can you read?

The two teenagers were not charged with starting the riots - they were charged with inciting others to carry weapons and to cause damage and harm. This is just not acceptable.
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RE: Two teenagers arrested for Facebook posts inciting UK riots
TheFilipinoFlash 10th Aug
@bitcrazed looks like we are the only ones that can read.
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RE: Two teenagers arrested for Facebook posts inciting UK riots
owlnet 10th Aug
In every country there are these so called 'criminal and un-educated and economically backward class' and UK is no exception. These people has brought shame to Brittan.
Social media or any other means should never be used to incite violence or unrest. And who ever does that in any country should face the law. This is not about civil liberaty or any other bollocks.

The current generation of youths in many developed nations are so spoiled that its time for a big re-think. Its time to teach these youths a lesson or two in discipline.
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This ethos will be in the USA too
blackdwarf 10th Aug
This is the failure of capitlism at its advanced stages. No choice no jobs, large populations with their jobs being progressively automated. Even Microsoft are doing it. What do you think the .NET framework was about. No it is not to make it easier for developers to code. Blackboxes eventually make it easier for less skilled people to develop code so wages can be forced down. The pioneers of IT will be next on the scrap-heap. The irony is that they created the systems that will do it to them.
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RE: Two teenagers arrested for Facebook posts inciting UK riots
bitcrazed 10th Aug
@blackdwarf - ROFL ROFL ROFL!

You're now blaming the .NET FX for mass unemployment? Are you for real? Why not blame Kernigan & Richie for creating C, saving developers from having to write machine code? How about blaming Bill Joy for creating Java?

Finding solutions to problems, hindrances and annoyances is merely a "feature" of being human. This "feature" results in human advancement. Advancement results in previously laborious tasks being simplified and, in some cases, eliminated.

There was once a time that driving a car was a highly specialized skill and was seen as too challenging for the masses.
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RE: Two teenagers arrested for Facebook posts inciting UK riots
SocratesMentor 10th Aug
Where is Tonya Harding when you REALLY NEED HER?
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RE: Two teenagers arrested for Facebook posts inciting UK riots
non-biased 15th Aug
@blackdwarf This is most definitely not a failure of capitalism. This is a downside of Socialism. This very obvious downside that many are starting to finally realize is that at some point in a Socialist society you run out of other people's money.
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A Couple of Legal Issues Here
panzrwagn 10th Aug
1) Habeus Corpus - "Show me the body" - a writ of habeas corpus is a judicial mandate requiring that a prisoner be brought before the court to determine whether the government has the right to continue detaining them. In this case, show me the body of the Facebook messages in question.
2) "The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man falsely shouting fire in a theater and causing a panic." See Schenk vs. US and Brandenburg vs. Ohio case law.
I know these are both US cases, but I think British law has equivalents
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RE: Two teenagers arrested for Facebook posts inciting UK riots
BigRonW 10th Aug
@panzrwagn Yet another American who doesn't realise that SCOTLAND is a different country to England, and that Scotland has its OWN laws and legal system. Kind of like the USA and Mexico. The statement "I think BRITISH law..." tells us exactly how uninformed your thoughts are. The riots are happening in England (NOT Scotland) The kids got arrested under SCOTTISH law, in SCOTLAND. There IS NO SUCH THING as "British Law".
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RE: Two teenagers arrested for Facebook posts inciting UK riots
SocratesMentor Updated - 10th Aug
as the Emperor of Austria once said to Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart...
Well, There it is!"

Most Scots think because they now have their own parliament those nether not longer pull the puppet's strings.
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RE: Two teenagers arrested for Facebook posts inciting UK riots
non-biased 15th Aug
@thombone What makes you think you have the right to demand the proof? The only ones that have the right to demand the proof are the teens and their legal representatives. Of course they are going to demand the proof and it if is good enough for the judge the case will proceed regardless of what you think about it.

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