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Christopher Dawson

Google conversation view: Why would you disable it?

By | September 29, 2010, 10:57am PDT

Summary: Turn off conversation view in Gmail? Perish the thought!

In an extended cilantro metaphor of a blog post, Google announced today that it would allow users to disable what, in my opinion, is the single best feature of Gmail and one of the most touted new features of Outlook 2010: Conversation view.

As Gmail Technical Lead, Wiltse Carpenter, explains,

The way Gmail organizes mail into conversations is like cilantro. You either love it — and, like me, enjoy the nice citrusy, herbal finish it gives to everything from salsa to curry — or you hate it…So just like you can order your baja fish tacos without cilantro, you can now get Gmail served up sans conversation view. Go to the main Settings page, look for the “Conversation View” section, select the option to turn it off, and save changes.

Carpenter points to community requests for the feature to be optional and I have to hand it to Google for, as one poster says, “giv[ing] someone the option to turn off your great idea.”

This sounds to me, however, like it is really about attracting enterprise-types who have become accustomed to Outlook and Exchange, where a conversation view only became available with the launch of Outlook 2010. Conversation view, for non-Gmail users, is a real switch, particularly 50-somethings who still have BlackBerries and live by Outlook. By making the threaded emails optional, Google can now allow users to come closer to the feel of their traditional mail client or webmail view of choice.

I’m with Carpenter on this one (and I really love cilantro):

…my fondness for cilantro pales in comparison to my love for Gmail’s conversation view, or message threading. I haven’t had to wade through multiple messages to follow a conversation in years.

Apparently there are enough people that Google is trying to woo to Premier Apps that it was worth their development time and the threat to a feature that I consider an integral part of the Gmail brand to make it worth the change. I’ve been using Gmail for many years and the recent need to begin using both a BlackBerry and Outlook 2007 for a particular client has made me love threaded conversations even more than I already did. But that’s me. My garden was overrun by cilantro this year because I planted so much of it.

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Topics

Chris Dawson is a freelance writer and consultant with years of experience in educational technology and web-based systems. In 2011, he became the Vice President of Marketing for WizIQ, Inc., a virtual classroom and learning network SaaS provider.

Disclosure

Christopher Dawson

Christopher Dawson is the Vice President of Marketing for WizIQ, Inc., by day and a freelance writer and educational technology consultant by night. Well, most of his colleagues at WizIQ are based in India, so really he's working with them whenever he can stay awake. He has worked for his local school district as a teacher and technology director, for the Johns Hopkins University School of Public Health, and for Biogen, Inc. (now Biogen-IDEC, Inc.). He has also consulted with STATNet and Cytyc Corporation and retains close ties with X2 Development Corporation (now owned by Follett Software, the supplier of the student information system he administered for several years). Follett is paying him a monthly honorarium to act as a presenter for their "SIS Voices for Student Achievement" community (he produces occasional blog posts and hosts a monthly webinar on the use of student information systems to inform data-driven instruction and school-wide change. He regularly purchases and/or recommends Dell hardware. This is because Dell makes good hardware and has truly committed itself to education in innovative ways, particularly with their "Connected Classroom" initiative. It isn't because he has dealings with the company through his role at WizIQ (which he does) or because they have provided him with long-term loans of a variety of equipment for in-depth testing (which they have). Intel (reference designer for the Classmate PCs he has implemented in his local schools) has provided him with long-term loans of Classmate PCs for testing, as have Dell and Lenovo with their educational offerings. He may report on any of these companies as his experiences with them have direct bearing on educational technology; positive reports are not necessarily an endorsement and he receives no direct financial compensation from these companies or any others. Intel paid all expenses for his attendance at the 2009 Intel Classmate PC Ecosystem Summit which he attended as the sole representative of the technology press. He was invited to attend in 2010 but his wife would have killed him if he spent 3 days in Vegas geeking out and left her home alone with a new baby. Acer provided him with a 50% discount on an Aspire One netbook in early 2009 after he tested it for 30 days through their educational seed program. He liked the netbook at the time but it has since broken and sits unused in his office. Canonical sent him Ubuntu lanyards, t-shirts, and mousepads for his kids. He stole one of the lanyards and proudly hangs his keys from it and occasionally features his 8-year old wearing an oversized Ubuntu t-shirt on his Facebook profile. Gunnar Optiks sent him a pair of computer glasses to evaluate for a holiday gift guide. He is wearing them now as he types this because they never asked for them back and they rock out loud. Seriously - they work brilliantly and make it much easier to spend 20 hours a day staring at an LCD. If they ever asked for them back, he would fork over the $99 and buy a pair. Microsoft gave him 2 free copies of Office 2010 professional, a desktop clock, and a useless book on Office 2010 when he attended the launch of Office/Sharepoint 2010. He occasionally uses the SharePoint lanyard they gave him instead of the Ubuntu lanyard for his keys, but feels dirty afterwards. Adobe provided him with a pre-release version of the CS5 Master Collection for evaluation and ultimately provided a full, licensed copy for ongoing testing of educational applications of this admittedly expensive software. Like the Gunnars, if the license expires or they come out with CS6, he'd actually go out and buy it himself. Which is saying something, because he's actually pretty cheap. Any other companies wishing to send him cool things to evaluate, wear, or otherwise adorn his kids are more than welcome to; he promises to disclose it here if he keeps any of the stuff. Finally, because WizIQ is a virtual classroom and learning network provider, Chris, as VP of Marketing, frequently interacts with, seeks out deals with, and directly or indirectly competes with a whole lot of LMS, SIS, and other Education 2.0 companies. In general, he'll limit his reporting about these companies to news that does not impact his relationship with them or with WizIQ. If he reports on them, it's because what they are doing is newsworthy or worth the attention of his readers and not because he's trying to broker some deal, damage competition, or otherwise advance his position in his day job. LMS and SIS companies, along with other online learning communities, are a pretty important part of Ed Tech. If he stops reporting on them completely, there won't be a whole lot left. He'll be sure to call out any overt conflicts of interest if they are unavoidable. Finally, Follett Software Company pays him a little tiny honorarium every month to present on their SIS Voices webinars and to write the occasional blog or discussion thread for them. Since Follett recently bought X2 (maker of an awesome web-based SIS that Chris just happened to have used, served in advisory groups for, and frequently reported on), this is probably also worth disclosing.

Biography

Christopher Dawson

Christopher Dawson grew up in Seattle, back in the days of pre-antitrust Microsoft, coffeeshops owned by something other than Starbucks, and really loud, inarticulate music. He escaped to the right coast in the early 90's and received a degree in Information Systems from Johns Hopkins University. While there, he began a career in health and educational information systems, with a focus on clinical trials and related statistical programming and database modeling. This focus led him to several positions at Johns Hopkins, a couple-year stint in private industry, teaching high school math and technology, and 2 years as the technology director for his local school district. Most recently, he started his own consulting business and is now the Vice President of Marketing for WizIQ, Inc., a virtual classroom and learning network provider. He lives with his wife, five kids (yes, 5), 2 dogs, and a hateful cat in a small town in north-central Massachusetts. Although he is no longer teaching, his roles with WizIQ and ZDNet allow him to continue helping students and teachers add value to education with technology rather than merely adding to the bottom line.
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RE: Google conversation view: Why would you disable it?
Timothy (TRiG) 6th Oct 2010
tonymcs@...

You say Gmail doesn't have folders. This is incorrect. Gmail has labels, which can be used exactly the same way as folders. (They can also be used in more powerful ways, if you wish.)

Try setting a filter on incoming e-mails.
Matches: from:(example@example.net)
Action: skip inbox, apply label "example".

Voil?: a folder!

TRiG.
Because, quite frankly, their implementation was downright awful. I find the GMail interface so clunky and unintuitive to use I finally gave up and set up Apple Mail to use IMAP, and manage my mail that way instead.
@aep528 Take heed: It is better to keep your mouth shut
and appear [as a yahoo/hotmail user] than to open it and remove all doubt [especially on tech blogs].
-Mark Twain
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RE: Google conversation view: Why would you disable it?
tonymcs@... Updated - 29th Sep 2010
@dextroz

Yes it's only those of us who need email to be quick and easy and actually have correspondents, who are frustrated with Google's weird design.

To geeks (that very small minority) arcane designs are really an attraction - (see Android).

Yes I would like sort and folders. Conversations are great in theory, terrible in implementation.

If everyone in the room is losing their head and you're staying calm, then perhaps you've misunderstood the situation.

Oh and spam doesn't count, you actually need real people to send you stuff - hope you're having fun in your mum's basement
tonymcs@...
That very small minority are the ones driving innovation for the world. That very small minority is responsible for just about any electronic device you are using including the one you used to type your message.

And in the US where a large portion of the population don't even know where the US is located on a map and can't compete with the rest of the world, its one of the few groups that gives the US any credibility.
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@dextroz

So, do you have anything to add to the conversation? Like an actual, convincing argument why I am wrong? No? Then I can publish quotes too: People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

I was just looking at the latest Windows Live Mail, and even that has a better implementation of conversations than Gmail. I have one thread that's only 23 message, and it is a real pain to locate a particular message. Why can't I expand the thread right in the Inbox? Why does Gmail show them oldest to newest, top to bottom? In an active thread I need to see the newest messages, not the oldest. Why do I have to select Collapse All when I get to the thread? Why isn't that the default so I can then quickly choose a point in the thread to jump to? Why doesn't Collapse All collapse the newest message in the thread? What part of "All" does Google not understand? And why are the controls for the threading (Collapse, Expand, etc.) located in the advertising column? I didn't notice them at first because I have gotten used to ignoring the right side of the screen when in Gmail.
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tonymcs@...

You say Gmail doesn't have folders. This is incorrect. Gmail has labels, which can be used exactly the same way as folders. (They can also be used in more powerful ways, if you wish.)

Try setting a filter on incoming e-mails.
Matches: from:(example@example.net)
Action: skip inbox, apply label "example".

Voil?: a folder!

TRiG.
@aep528 nice troll. I run my business through Google apps and conversation view is the best thing ever. I am able to keep track of correspondents with customers over years. and I have over a thousand customers, so keeping track of it any other way is really almost impossible.
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You haven't heard of folders?
John Hanks 1st Oct 2010
@Jimster480
I have lots of clients and I keep each one in a folder in Outlook. It works great. I have email going back about 15 years and although Pegasus Mail worked better, Outlook keeps my Notes, Calendar, Task List and Contacts all synced with my Blackberry quite easily.
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That is the A#1 best feature of Gmail and if one turns it off, they may as well use Hotmail or Yahoo, which suck.

I can't believe Google bent over on this one. I really thought they'd just let someone else write an app for it. *sigh*
@magnoliasouth that's right magnoliasouth .. you must be Microsoft ...er... god .. omnicient ... no one must need or want it any other way, and to allow them the choice ... well THAT must really be the crazy thing...

Both views have their benefits.... for me.. the only thing threaded view does, is hide Google's f**ked up help forum notifications, in which I get a email for each of my replies in a single help topic

eg. I start a help topic, get a notice when someone replies.. if *I* go back in and reply to that someone.. I get another copy of the update to the thread ... if I've replied to 5 others that have posted under one thread, I've got 6 copies of the email when one person adds to it... yeah.. intelligent design ....

Its only fair to everyone, if you allow people THE CHOICE to decide for themselves. And its because Google wants to appeal to a greater audience regardless of the client they are use to, that Google would finally realize there are enough people bitching (about time google realized it) to see they needed to offer the option.. the real stupidity and moronic behavior, is for google NOT to have offered the option from the get go..
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@magnoliasouth
So whats wrong with choice ? If its enabled by default and you can disable it if you dont like it whats the problem ? There is nothing worse than having no options to customize and being told STFU this is how youre going to use the program regardless if you like it or not. Maybe Mozilla can learn something from this .....
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nah, nothing to do with enterprise. I hate this feature. If I remember getting an e-mail from, say, Fred last Friday. I can't just scroll down to last friday and look for e-mails from Fred. No -- too simple/easy. I have to sort through my conversations (which are in seemingly-random order) looking for the last-time I replied to a Fred-e-mail and then click through the whole conversation until I find the e-mail I want from Friday. I can see why some people like it, but I don't. It seems to complicate things unnecessarily. I'm not a computer newb or an oldie or a business user. I'm just used to sorting my e-mails chronologically and this has been the main thing keeping me from transitioning to web-based gmail.
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@roadnottaken I totally agree. what kills me is if I know I got an email from someone, say someone named "Jane" with some information that I needed -- say a phone number. In gmail, if I searched "from:jane" that email would be somewhere in the results, but I would have to read through ALL the threads. Without threads, I'd see JUST the emails from jane, and i could page down a few times and find the email. I actually find myself going to mail.app to do that and that alone. Now I can do it all in gMail!
@roadnottaken
Gmail's motto: "Don't organize, just search"
You have the most powerful search machine right a few pixels above your cursor. Why would you click on column headers and other stuff?
I don't split or sort anything in there. Just search!
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@roadnottaken

Click Search box

type fred

hit enter

super fancy way:

type: fred after:2010/9/23 before:2010/9/25

hit enter

Conversations are hard-wired to time/date- oldest email in the thread is always at the top, most recent email is at the bottom. Always.

Hope this helps happy
@Gritztastic

And all that typing is preferable to a simple scroll and click?
@Gritztastic

How many people are looking for the oldest emails in a thread by default? Why can't I have the option to show newest ones first?
This is another classic example of how Google is so discombobulated in their priorities vs. actions. There are nearly 50 amazing features in their Gmail>Settings>Labs options for years that should have made it as 'default' for all users by now who don't know what they're missing yet unfortunately.

Instead, they come out and announce a regressive act as a 'feature'.

On the other hands, the Gmail contacts > Android contacts is COMPLETELY broken (try the address fields or lack of it) which they haven't addressed since inception, even when they recently updated the Gmail Contacts menu.

Also, try going to google.com/contacts - tada! be presented with the months old ****** interface/elements.

PS Android gmail client still can't process calendar invites. One would think that's the highest business priority. It looks like Google hires it's own fair share of industry rejects.
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@dextroz Again.. a person that must be god.. because **YOU** don't think it should be so.. if you want to REALLY lay the blame ... GOOGLE should have made this an option for users to make the choice... FROM INCEPTION of their offering.

I'm sure someone back then said.. "you know.. I hate email the 'outlook' way" and designed the web client to do threaded view. At the moment THAT person designed the web client to do threaded view.. THAT was when this "feature" should have been an option for people to choose.

Same can be said of Microsoft's Outlook ... in 2010 ... they finally came up with threaded view in the corporate enabled mail client.. WTF were *THEY* smoking not to have included it in every version of outlook since 97?

Look.. Dextroz .. its the allowance of our differences that helps us see the value in everything, and helps us empathize with "the other person" ... you want someone to feel your desires are important.. well you have to see the value someone else has in their different view point on the same things.
I wouldn't disable it. The only reason why i switched from yahoo to gmail is because of the threaded conversation.
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Cool. I can't wait to turn it off
LarsDennert 29th Sep 2010
When several people reply to the same conversation, some new threads aren't so obvious. When I'm done, I want it gone. Guess I'm old school. My first email account was in 1986... or was it 1985?
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RE: Google conversation view: Why would you disable it?
itsafunkything Updated - 29th Sep 2010
options are good. each on to their own i say! personally i don't like how threads get broken when someone decides to change the subject line. it puts things off and i end up having to go back and forth among threads instead of a linear progression. therefore you guessed it, i went to the linear view already! thanks google. but others are right i'd already be using hotmail otherwise not for the fact they still don't offer SSL connections for the whole session.
I disabled it because I get many unrelated emails with the same subject and it grouped them for me. For the same reason, I disable Conversation View in Outlook 2010. They are good ideas but not for me at this time.
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Because it's complicated and it sucks.
www.dfwsupergeek.com
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Best option in GMAIL .. Disable Conversation View
atlantabravesrock 30th Sep 2010
1) Gmail's search function alone is pretty darn impressive. So if I'm looking for Joe's message about pencils, I can search for it and find it within a matter of seconds. I find that it takes longer to dig through a conversation, expanding and collapsing emails, hoping to find the right one, than it does to type in a quick search query.

2)That's how I feel about Gmail's conversations: they're like messy drawers. While your inbox looks neat, the conversations themselves are often a mess, full of forwards and replies that branch off in so many directions that they're often not even all that related to the original message anymore.

This situation is made worse when you have a conversation that involves multiple people. Say, for example, that Sam forwards you an email from Bob. You reply to Bob, and now you have multiple emails in your conversation. But then you have a question for Sam, so you forward him the email from Bob. Now you have even more messages in your conversation. Then Sam e-mails Bob, and cc's you. Let's face it: your conversation view is a mess. Finding a specific message in there is no easier than hunting down those paper clips.

3)Another problem with Conversation View: I consistently find myself missing messages because they get pushed back in a conversation thread.

This problem happens a lot with group e-mails: if two people reply in close succession, one of those messages gets pushed out of top-level view of my inbox, and I don't always know it's there. I can see that the most recent message has arrived, but if I decide that I don't want to open that message right away, I don't open the entire conversation thread. Then I've completely missed the message that arrived just minutes before -- and that message may have been the one I wanted to read.
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@atlantabravesrock Click 'Expand all' in a thread to avoid missing messages. Also- first email in thread is always at the top, most recent is always at the bottom.
I don't have gmail, yet. may have to to use some features of my new phone.
Conversation view sounds like a mess. I don't keep read messages in my inbox--Lotus Notes, hotmail, At&T Yahoo. If I am done, they are deleted to go linger in the trash until removed from there, either by me or by the suplier--Hotmail removes them after a few days, Notes will keep them until removed, Yahoo, I presume removes them after a while, too--I usually download them into Outlook for further reading or I don't have time to look at them now--I have messages that are unread from years ago, as they are tips and tricks, or from W2KNews (changed, but don't remember what they call it now), WServerNews, etc. personal emails are read, relatively quickly. I don't need someone messing with my inbox trying to tie things together, it would be a mess! I get little personal mail at my AT&T Yahoo account, or my hotmail account, if they want me in a hurry they send it to work, where it is read promptly. The others are looked into maybe once a week, that is why I have newsletters that are a month old or more, and some are deleted and not read. I am tired of companies requiring a sign in for everything. Some features on my phone will not be available until I get a gmail account--nuiscance at best--why should I have to sign in? I need another eamil address like I need more holes in my head! Just because Google wrote the operating system, doesn't mean they have to know everything!
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@dhays Gmail allows you to "Archive" messages, or to hide read messages, quite easily, so you shouldn't need to delete anything you might want to find again. And the search feature is awesome!

TRiG.
Conversation strings are tricky when you are a member of a listserve (I know they are so yesterday, but some volunteer organizations absent tech support still use them) and want to reply to an individual. Even if you are careful to be polite in emails, there is always the possibility that a borderline rude comment would go to the whole group.
I love cilantro, but threaded view is a pain.

First, if you have read previous posts in a thread and deleted them, when a new one comes in, all the sudden you have all the previous post back, too.

Second, if you haven't checked mail in awhile, you may have 10 posts in the thread. A post in the middle of the 10 might have a weblink you want to check out later. Unfortunately, if you want to keep it, you need to keep all 10 because there's no way to delete just the surrounding 9, leaving it.

Thread views are great for reading newsgroups, but they are nothing but a pain in the butt in email.
YES!!! I've been waiting for this day ever since I created my GMail account (several years ago)
I think it's great Google is giving users the OPTION of disabling conversations
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I would absolutely never disable that feature! It really is the coolest part of Gmail. It makes everything from email conversations with friends to project work a breeze. Organization is not an issue. The labels work just like folders. If terminology is the hangup, perhaps technology is not for you.
Email threads ... feature ... bane to existence ... savior? Hmmm. As Gmail implemented them, I find they help me, personally, more often than not. They do occasionally cause me issues, but nothing I can't handle. I know people who hate them. I know people who love them. Who's "wrong"? Is anyone wrong?

As Outlook Web App implemented threads, and as they run on my system as it's currently configured, I find myself logging back into regular Outlook as fast as I can. I miss threading when I'm in regular Outlook, but not enough to log back into the Web App. Why? It doesn't work the way I do and I don't enjoy working the way it does. happy

Given the app I'm in, I can imagine myself turning threading on or off, depending on what I was doing at the time. Like most things in my world, I find this feature has +'s and -'s. If the -'s get big enough, I write a note to the creators of the feature, expressing my thoughts and alternatives. If not, I just trundle on, doing my best not to get too unglued about it. Of the 5 different e-mail systems I use (1 will remain nameless), my personal favorite is Gmail. A quick poll of my friends was rather equally divided between Gmail, Yahoo, Hotmail and Outlook, and most of us use more than one.

As for those folks whose comments indicate that they think we should all use one email system and that it should be the one they like, configured as they prefer it ... I don't get that ... and yet I do.

When I was younger, I used to act as if my preferences were somehow superior to or "correct" when compared to those of others. If I didn't like something, no body should. If I didn't need something, neither should anyone else. How COULD anyone possibly think it was legitimate to prefer something that was so obviously complete nonsense to me. It was as if their preference was an insult to mine.

I was well into my 30's before I began to notice that other people seemed to survive quite successfully and happily despite holding completely different preferences from my own. Slowly, it began to dawn on me that people really can be very different and still be totally wonderful, and the choices they make can also be completely different from those I made and yet in perfect harmony with their personal wants and needs, and none of it stopped me from living my own life my own way. Hmmm.

By the time I reached 40, I had gotten quite comfortable with the notion of people sitting right next to me and living lives that were entirely unlike mine and that being totally OK. Life is easier for me now.

And so is dealing with threads. happy
Initially, I didn't like the feature. But I understood what it was trying to achieve so I decided to open my mind and give it a shot. After about a year, it made total sense to me and the way I thought about reading and handling email altered and adjusted. There are still some issues for me like some messages from people getting lost in the thread. But overall, it really helps to de-clutter my inbox. Now I find my yahoo mail and old outlook to be more cumbersome. So to me, its not a matter of being counter intuitive but more like a resistance to the way you did things before. For me personally, the way I did email before turns out to not be better. This way is a bit harder I think but the end result is better and worth the extra thought involved in the process.
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online@ohnosecond.com
online@... 30th Sep 2010
I like having the choice. I don't have a lot of "conversations" going on right now...but there is one person I write back and forth to nearly every day, never delete, and having to scroll through the conversation to get to the most recent message, becomes a pain toward the end of the month.

I can always turn it on when I want it. No big deal.
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There are alternatives
p.vinnie@... 30th Sep 2010
Google apps allows configuring gmail into user's favourite email client. So there should be no reason for people to moan about.
In my opinion people should explore Gmail interface because it provides tons of features which are handy and speed up communication. But after spending enough time if they think they are rather use Outlook or Thunderbird, they have option to do so.

I think Gmail backbone is still real value because it is robust, comes with powerful spam filter and at a fraction of cost of MS Exchange or Lotus Notes.

I use three personal email accounts (gmail, yahoo and hotmail), plus Lotus Notes at work and used MS exchange + outlook in last employment. But I like gmail interface for its sheer speed and convenience. I don't have to organise, delete or sort emails ever. It provides portability, synchronisation and secure connection without need for bulky VPN connection.
Simple, it hinders me. If it was a true threaded view that I could expand and manage individual e-mails that might work.

As to using search to find stuff in e-mail, why should I learn yet another archaic command line syntax?

My question is when will they implement folders?
Never liked it. Turn it off immediately. Always hated sorting through the "pile".
Why would you disable it? That's easy. Because, just like Gmail, it is more Google spyware. Enterprise, those that have any sense, can and will avoid Google products and services like the plague.
I access my gmail via IMAP and avoid the web interface. Is this "conversation view" analogous to message threading in a dedicated email client?

I always wonder about the appeal of web based mail and discussion forums. Using a dedicated mail client and nntp client is much more flexible and consistent that learning all the various foibles and limitations web sites and their web-based editors force on you.

Thank goodness we can still use mail without a web interface! But alas, nntp is disappearing quickly -- not because it's not up to the task, but rather I suspect it's harder to insert advertising into nntp.
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Because it sucks balls?
nomorebs 4th Oct 2010
(nope trollboys, I don't want for Apple or MS)

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