ie8 fix

Linux' Linus calls Apple's file system 'complete and utter crap,' worse than Windows

By | July 14, 2011, 6:31pm PDT

Summary: Some days, it’s just not fair. You know you’re going to post something that’s going to have the fanboys heads spinning. True journalistic integrity requires you light a flame and watch it burn.

Linus’ image courtesy ZDNet Japan.

Some days, it’s just not fair. You know you’re going to post something that’s going to have the fanboys heads spinning, you don’t want to hurt their precious necks, but true journalistic integrity requires you light a flame and watch it burn.

This is one of those days. Apparently, Linus Torvalds, creator of Linux, just gave a speech Down Under. In it, he compared Linux with Windows and OS X. The phrase you’re all going to enjoy is this one:

“I don’t think they’re equally flawed - I think Leopard is a much better system,” he said. “(But) OS X in some ways is actually worse than Windows to program for. Their file system is complete and utter crap, which is scary.”

Thanks to the Sydney Morning Herald for the story.

Update: The curse of links sometimes gets you. I found this off a “breaking news” link from Google News just now, but didn’t bother to notice the actual article was from 2008. So, well, rather than deleting the story, let’s just say how far we’ve all come and try not to fight. Sorry, folks. Sometimes the links catch us, too! Egg. Face. Yum.

Go forth. TalkBack. Try not to hurt each other.

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David Gewirtz, Distinguished Lecturer at CBS Interactive, is an author, U.S. policy advisor, and computer scientist. He is featured in The History Channel special The President's Book of Secrets.

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David Gewirtz

At various times during his adult life, David has voted for both Democrats and Republicans, and has been disappointed by both. He is deeply disturbed by how partisanship has come before patriotism in America, which gives him the freedom to pick on both sides.

David is a frequent guest on TV and radio stations across America and can usually be heard or seen on-the-air at least once a week. He writes weekly commentary and analysis for CNN’s Anderson Cooper 360 and has been interviewed by Fox News, CNN, various ABC and NBC affiliates, and Canada’s Global TV. He has been a featured guest on National Public Radio and has also been featured on Voice of America, Radio Free Europe, and Radio Liberty where his commentaries on technology, industry, and emerging nations have been broadcast into 46 countries (all in their own unique translations).

David is the executive director of U.S. Strategic Perspective Institute, a nonprofit research and policy organization. He is the Cyberterrorism Advisor for the International Association for Counterterrorism & Security Professionals, a columnist for The Journal of Counterterrorism and Homeland Security and a special contributor to Frontline Security Magazine. He is a member of the FBI’s InfraGard program, the security partnership between the FBI and industry. David is also a member of the U.S. Naval Institute and the National Defense Industrial Association, the leading defense industry association promoting national security.

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Biography

David Gewirtz

In addition to hosting the ZDNet Government and ZDNet DIY-IT blogs, CBS Interactive's Distinguished Lecturer David Gewirtz is an author, U.S. policy advisor, and computer scientist. He is featured in The History Channel special The President's Book of Secrets, is one of America's foremost cyber-security experts, and is a top expert on saving and creating jobs. He is also director of the U.S. Strategic Perspective Institute as well as the founder of ZATZ Publishing.

David is a member of FBI InfraGard, the Cyberwarfare Advisor for the International Association for Counterterrorism & Security Professionals, a columnist for The Journal of Counterterrorism and Homeland Security, and has been a regular CNN contributor, and a guest commentator for the Nieman Watchdog of the Nieman Foundation for Journalism at Harvard University. He is the author of Where Have All the Emails Gone?, the definitive study of email in the White House, as well as How To Save Jobs and The Flexible Enterprise, the classic book that served as a foundation for today's agile business movement.

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Top Rated

RE: Linux' Linus calls Apple's file system 'complete and utter crap,' worse than Windows
BrentRBrian 15th Jul
@LBiege he did not claim Linux was superior ... just that Apple had a bad file system (from a programmer's point of view).

Just In

Derived from UNIX?
foofishburger 18th May
Really? NTFS like most of the NT-family has its roots in VMS. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTFS

HFS plus is just a souped up version of the original Mac OS filesystem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HFS_Plus
9 Votes
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Well...
KyeRussell 14th Jul
Linus called his own kernel bloated and ******, I wouldn't take it to heart.
-17 Votes
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So-called 'complete crap' scores far more market share
LBiege Updated - 15th Jul Below threshold | Show anyway
... than any version of supposedly "superior" Linux, which is sth Linus cannot quite explain. Someone passes him an Obama tele-prompter please. Maybe that'd help Linus find a clue or two on how to spin failure as success.
@LBiege he did not claim Linux was superior ... just that Apple had a bad file system (from a programmer's point of view).
@LBiege

Actually, he was comparing it to Windows, which has way more market share than OS X. Still, just another way in which you're wrong, because market share is NOT an indication of quality.
@LBiege Market share is defined as a measurement of sales, and Linux is free, so very little sales. Those that commercially 'buy' Linux are actually buying service and support plans. It makes comparing Linux to other OS difficult, but its a low number that Microsoft and Apple are happy to point to.
@LBiege

The market share of Mercedes is far smaller than that of Ford, so obviously Ford makes far superior automobiles...

What? You don't agree? How can that be...
@LBiege

But I thought market share didn't matter to Apple fanatics, sorry, faithful.
0 Votes
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Pathetic...
Moses00007 19th Jul
@LBiege how keen of you to make it political. I find it laughable that you call out Obama for spinning success out of failure. As if this wasn't the norm in the political field. Your boy GW probably taught him everything he knows.
-9 Votes
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It already is a success.
Joe.Smetona Updated - 24th Jul Below threshold | Show anyway
@LBiege ... Windows spends millions for marketing and getting OEM's to install it on new computers.

Anyone who closely follows Windows security realizes it is a total failure. Microsoft has money to market infections as being the norm with all it's virus, botnet and malware infections and that AV use is normal and to be expected. Online technical magazines like ZDNet are stooges to Microsoft because of the advertising dollars. Recent articles at ZDNet have attempted to paint Apple and Linux as equal to Microsoft by trying to sell them as being just as susceptible to virus infections and in need of AV. This was a failure and promulgated by their utter failure in the smartphone market. For Windows smartphone's to work, they need AV. AV has not been necessary on Apple and Android smartphones. The largest smartphone market share with millions of users does not have to use AV and does not get infected. Enter Microsoft which needs AV and it's a gigantic turn off. They managed to sell AV use to the desktop market, but can't do it for smartphones. Imagine someone getting hit with overages with a MS smartphone for sending 2,400-10,000 spam emails a day due to a botnet infection.

I've used LInux Knoppix, Freespire, BSD, Ubuntu and Mint for the last 8 years with no AV. I've never had non-standard operation or infections. But it's not just me, it's every computer I've installed it on. Windows users talk down Linux, but never have even seen or tried it. If you download the iso, you can boot from it and it will run without touching your hard drive. It's not difficult and you can see exactly how the program looks and works. Log out, remove the CD and Reboot, and you are back to Windows.

Also, if your Windows is hosed, you can use the CD to copy your files to a flash drive before re-installing.

Linux Mint 11 download http://www.linuxmint.com/download.php

Windows and some burners don't natively burn .iso's. A free download is available called Active ISO burner 2 available at:
http://www.ntfs.com/iso_burner_free.htm

People can't accurately comment about Linux unless they have at least tried it. It's worth the effort and don't even think about using AV. happy
  • Flagged
9 Votes
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Apple is crap
stephen714 14th Apr
When I got my first Windows machine, it was totally intuitive and needed no manuals, etc. Everyone I know who uses Apple are constantly stopping into the Apple store to solve absurd problems. I find Apple trying so hard to avoid words and directiions by just using icons and pictures that it is a mess to use. I'll take Windows any day over Apple.
  • Flagged
4 Votes
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as far as market share goes...
codeslikeagirl 15th Apr
I don't think it's a mystery to anyone why Linux isn't big for non-developers. A lot of users think the computer is a magical box and don't want to know what's inside it, so they prefer OS's that camouflage everything with easy icons and install routines. (And if it wasn't so easy to access the terminal in OSX, I'd agree with Linus.)
2 Votes
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-.-
pwn0tr0n 17th Apr
I think you need to qualify that... By bloated he means the code base. However you don't need to compile everything the kernel has to offer and make _your_ kernel bloated.

I have have a kernel I compiled for my audio workstation that weighs in at 3.9mb, and that has the drivers compiled in (as opposed to loaded as modules).

Windows kernel is pretty slim now, but it loads zillions of modules so the memory footprint is actually still huge.
1 Vote
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That's exactly the point about the differences between the 3 major Operating Systems. Don't like the Memory Footprint of Windows? Sorry you have no power to do anything about that or even work at the kernel level on any Proprietary OS's like Windows, OS-X or iOS. But being able to get inside the kernel is only part of the problem many people find frustrating about the Competing Proprietary Operating Systems on both mobiles and desktops.

For instance, take Android Linux; uses same kernel now that the Linux Desktops use. Why is it so popular to the point that it's now on over 300 Million devices... basically in just two years (around 10 million prior to 2010). Why did Mobile Linux Explode while Linux Desktops haven't? Because Mobiles have the added benefit of Carrier and Hardware maker Support and Desktop Linux never has!

So Linux due to Android Linux's popularity are growing greater market share for the Linux Open Source Platform than Desktops ever dreamed of. It's also gaining market share at a faster rate than all Desktop OS's in their history combined. Even faster than Apple's OS-X neutered and fragmented derivative iOS. So what if Apple would have instead kept the OS-X kernel in tact for iOS and allowed Manufacturers and Carriers to "Roll Your Own" like you and Android did? It'd be a whole different ball game in Operating Systems today!

Apple's Garden Walled environment would have been impossible, but iOS might have been a 10 times bigger market than even Android by now. So the trend in mobiles has really been set now... in Linux's favor in the mobile World. Thanks in part to the fact that everybody in Android is FREE to PLAY! .......Unlike their proprietary competitors that are still trying to control and cram their users into Garden Walled environments with far less FREEDOM and CUSTOMIZATION.... available to their Users!!! :DDD

Linux is far from dead now that the World through Android has discovered what us Linux Users have known all along. FREEDOM RULES! ....especially when you don't have just one proprietary JUNK "File System" like Apple and Windows to choose from!!!
7 Votes
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"The market share of Mercedes is far smaller than that of Ford, so obviously Ford makes far superior automobiles...

"What? You don't agree? How can that be..."

Actually, depending on what your criterion is, Ford DOES make far superior automobiles. Yes, how can that be? Simple. Not everyone wants to pay a very high price for way more car than they really need. High purchase price is only the beginning. You have to pay to maintain that fancy German over-engineering. There is nothing wrong with a Ford if it fits your needs and there's nothing wrong with any of these OSs if they fit your needs either. Fanboys are always trying to make it a religion but the truth is than not one OS fits all purposes. BTW, I do not own either a Ford or a Mercedes. happy Nice that we all have choices.
or the computer. It only changes the popularity.

Ford, while being one of the most popular brands in the world, is not necessarily (or in reality) the best. There are far better cars out there that cost in the same ball park as far as price but don't have the same following. I, for one, hate Ford vehicles even though I own one. Conversely, Windows, while being currently the most popular OS in the world, is not necessarily the best; there are better OSes out there that cost less.

The difference really is in exposure, not quality. Ford as a brand is well-known world wide. No other single brand has the same kind of world exposure in the same price range. GM for instance, as a brand, is relatively unknown. GM is known for its many, many divisions which are regional in scope even though many products now cross regions--primarily by cross-branding them once they reach the second region. What may be a Holden in Australia could be a Chevrolet in the US (and is). A Ford is a Ford is a Ford, though different regions may have different models.

Computers are different though--whether you talk hardware or software. Microsoft got its huge head start when it tied itself to IBM's apron strings. Quite literally the IBM name dragged Microsoft into the enterprise rather than MS getting in there through any sales efforts of its own. By the time the enterprise even realized there were other OS contenders for the workplace, IBM had lost all control of the PC platform which ultimately gave Microsoft, as the OS, full control. The enterprise could no longer easily change platforms and the wide variety of PC manufacturers drove the cost of hardware down to almost bare minimums. Accountants couldn't recognize the benefits of adopting a more expensive hardware platform that needed less upkeep compared to the low up-front cost of the already established platform. In the '80s and again in the '90s Apple proved the ROI for going Apple would be significantly less expensive in the long term, but accountants of the day insisted on short-term savings. Effectively they lived up to the adage of "Penny Wise, Pound Foolish." It's one reason why big corporations consider their IT departments their single largest earnings loss.

You speak of Fancy German over-engineering and yet you seem to forget that the Mercedes 'S' class has led the world in developing technologies that are standard equipment in almost all cars today. Well, just like Mercedes, Apple has led the world in developing technologies that are now standard equipment in almost all computers today--even if they didn't necessarily invent those technologies.

I, for one, don't like the idea of going back to the dealership on any kind of a regular basis for repairs. With Ford (and Windows computers) I've been forced to do that far more than I like. Sure, I can and do my own repairs on Windows computers--hardware and software--but I hate the time and the effort I have to waste in doing so. With my Mac (I don't own a Mercedes) it simply "just works" for me. Sure, I get the occasional hiccup; I just re-boot it and it's back to normal. The hardware keeps running and running and running... (sorry, beginning to sound like an Energizer?? bunny). I've not needed to trade it in and I've not spent a single penny on it over and above the initial price paid. I've never been able to say that for any Ford (Windows PC) I've owned.

So no, Ford (Windows) is not necessarily superior--simply cheaper and thus more popular.
0 Votes
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Like three years ago?
cyberkallen@... 14th Jul
The SMH article dates Feb 2008. Did it surface just now?
@cyberkallen@...

LoL, it talks about Vista and Leopard.
2 Votes
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Apple sucks
stephen714 14th Apr
I've used Vista without problem for four years and would take any Windows OS over any Apple OS.
@cyberkallen@... Sadly, I just found it today off a current news post. But it's old. Sigh.
@David Gewirtz: ... programmers do not do low-level file system management -- Apple provides all kinds of APIs for that, including the latest ones about "versions", "autosave" and others.

So this is Linus' purely technological/architectural view. Obviously, moving to ZFS would bring to OS X a lot of architectural beauty, but Apple had to drop this project for complicated reasons.
4 Votes
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After all, Oz is a strange and (some say) barbaric land filled with vegemite and beer swilling kangaroos, where they've eliminated the vowel "i" substituting it for "eeeeeeee" and even invented a terrible monster called a Queenslander, which is only slightly less feared than the proverbial Tasmanian.

Or something like that :P
-2 Votes
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Sydney not Sidney
crazzygooses 14th Jul
Typo in your link to the source. The city is called Sydney not Sidney.
0 Votes
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Common david...you know better
zuze Updated - 14th Jul
Now the question is, what is "your" point of view david?!.....which system is better, linux, mac or windows? And why?....that would be a more interresting article...thanks
@zuze I know a lot about file systems, enough to know that I can't tell you whether NTFS, one of the Linux file systems, or HFS+ is better. HFS+ is old, and I'd like to see it evolve, but I actually use all three environments almost daily.

Each serves its own purpose. My daily driver is Windows 7, I use the Mac for some video and studio production work, and I have servers for Web sites and LAMP that are Linux (CentOS, to be specific)-based.
@David Gewirtz

I've seen the OS X Finder choke on some of the image archives for Osirix. Osirix stopped working, too, but I'm not sure if they were accessing the filesystem in similar ways.
0 Votes
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@zuze

No, that wouldn't be a "better" article, that would be the same flamebait crap we're used to from this site.

the sad thing is David admitted as much is his posting... before he realized his linked story was 3 years old.

David, come on man. You're way better than this and the other bloggers on this site (I say that having read your book)... don't get caught up in the dog days of summer.
@chmod 777 yeah, not exactly my finest hour. Sigh. Such is life. I took a year to write that book. Blog posts have to happen MUCH more frequently. Sometimes, they're awesome, and sometimes, like this one, not so much.
@chmod 777

Well, he was clearly offering the post in a spirit of good-natured fun, and promptly fessed-up to his over-sight, so I'm more inclined to give him credit, than criticism.

Yes, there's a lot of cynical FUD and shallow (callow?) flame-bait published on this site -- but this piece doesn't really qualify, as long as one still retains some sense of humour.

In a way, the mistake only adds to the humour.

PS: @David Gewirtz, an article about the actual underlying question (comparative merits/shortcomings of HFS+, NTFS and Ext3/4 and bttrfs. etc) would probably be worth while.
3 Votes
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@zuze

.....which system is better, linux, mac or windows? And why?....

This one is easy. Of course, my system is the best! Always has been! Always will be! Because it does what I need it to do. Because it does what I want it to.
0 Votes
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@zuze Doughnuts and coffee.
0 Votes
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Isn't that what you do?
James Quinn 14th Jul
Still all in all baed on the dated nature of this article and or claims I for one am not moved to even bother to deffend and you know I'm there when I feel the need:P

Pagan jim
0 Votes
+ -
I'll bite
Joe_Raby 14th Jul
Which one of the DOZENS of filesystems that different *nix distros use does he actually recommend then? Honestly, this guy criticizes his own work so much too, that he looks as much like a hypocritical oaf as Richard Stallman.
Just asking.
@goff256
Fair question. I'm no filesystem expert, but I'm guessing not much. The Linux people I listen to are talking about something they call butter fs. ZFS seems to have faded and I'm thinking it's because of Sun's acquisition by Oracle.

File systems aren't in a vacuum. Apple has had resource forks and metadata that their file systems have supported and I imagine it definitely adds complexity which necessarily pulls back performance. We don't hear of reliability issues, except for that problem discovered at Leopard's launch where a move over a network would erase the source file if the move operation was interrupted.

As for Linux, it is a kernel and Linus doesn't really have to engage with the file systems it supports beyond an interface and checking in the kernel modules. As is typical with many things Linux, the user gets to choose the file system that they prefer.

But, really, in general, who chooses the os because of the file system? Linux being written by the technically sophisticated for the technically sophisticated is likely to have optimizations targeted at performance on a processor level.

Apple makes its os for people and optimizes for the experience, thus the metadata.
2 Votes
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I'm more trying to figure out
Michael Alan Goff 15th Jul
> 2008, it was a mess (according to Linus)
> 2011 it isn't, because they....
Agreed. I never like MacOSX's file system. Even today, I find it crap compared with Windows, but I'd still place it above Linux's.
@Cylon Centurion
what makes NTFS so much better?
-1 Votes
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@doh123 including the fact that, with Mac services running, it can present itself to Macs as HFS with resource fork data.
@Cylon Centurion

...I find it crap compared with Windows, but I'd still place it above Linux's...

Would you care to expand on that? You know, with arguments and comparisons and such as all that.
@Cylon Centurion
"... I'd still place it above Linux's."

Which one? Linux gives you a choice of several different file systems.

There are some technical reasons that HFS+ is rather unsuitable for a BSD based operating system like OS X. Apple is aware of this and was considering a move to ZFS at one time. Making any change, however, is an uphill battle at this point.

NTFS is actually more POSIX compliant than HFS+ and is more generally competent for use in a modern operating system. So yes, Windows has an advantage there (although there are criticisms that can be leveled at NTFS of course as well, just like every file system in existence).

Linux has available ext4, XFS, ReiserFS, Reiser4, JFS, Btrfs, etc. (Edit: Actually, I think I'd place every one of the file systems for Linux that I mentioned above HFS+.) Every file system has some strengths and weaknesses, and for some applications you will find better performance with some of these than others. Btrfs is still in heavy development, but there are pretty high expectations for it when it becomes stable.
3 Votes
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For real...
pwn0tr0n 17th Apr
I was about to post the same thing... There is no "The linux filesystem". Filesystems are mostly OS agnostic. Any OS can use any of them with the right file system driver. Whether or not your choice of OS can use a given file system is entirely dependent on what's available for your platform.

There's nothing preventing anyone from supporting any filesystem on any OS except the limitations of their programming skills.

I've mounted ntfs partitions on linux and mounted ext2 on windows. Just sayin...
Wow... so this kinda crashed and burned... or perhaps failed to launch altogether.
No clustered filesystem from Microsoft.
@chr0n0s Oh really? Then what do you call Windows 2008's CSV?
And if he did, why did you not report it? There's way too much sound byte journalism in this world without your contributing to it.
So aside from not really checking the source of your information, you wrote two poorly crafted paragraphs and an addendum to formulate this "article" brimming with "true journalistic integrity" ?

For your sake, I hope your "lectures" are more well thought out and planned.

My advice: STFU
Linus didn't mention the data loss bug in his own OS.
@LoverockDavidson

Probably because there is no such bug, oh and you do realize that you actually have a choice of which file system to use in Linux right? I suggest next time you actually take the time to learn about the topic you are commenting on.
0 Votes
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Derived from UNIX?
foofishburger 18th May
Really? NTFS like most of the NT-family has its roots in VMS. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTFS

HFS plus is just a souped up version of the original Mac OS filesystem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HFS_Plus

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