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Adrian Kingsley-Hughes

Apple risking performance (and reputation) by switching to Intel for budget notebook graphics?

By | December 9, 2010, 9:58am PST

Rumor has it that Apple will shift to using Intel’s upcoming Sandy Bridge processors for its MacBook line, ousting NVIDIA from its budget notebooks lineup.

The Sandy Bridge processor, which Intel will formally unveil at CES in January next year, is the first mainstream processor to feature a GPU built directly onto the CPU package. Fewer parts means a cheaper system.

CNet’s sources have this to say:

MacBook models with screen sizes of 13 inches and below are expected to switch to Sandy Bridge-only graphics, while higher-end MacBook Pros are expected to use graphics from Advanced Micro Devices, according to sources. Whether NVIDIA will still be present in higher-end models is unclear.

OK, on paper the idea makes sense. Sandy Bridge certainly has the potential to deliver an acceptable level of performance for low-end notebooks. It should also offer better battery life.

But it’s a gamble.

Intel has made big promises when it comes to graphics, but hasn’t been able to deliver the goods. Integrated Intel graphics offer at best mediocre performance. Many an OEM has suffered black eyes in reviews for choosing to opt for integrated Intel graphics. Seeing Sandy Bridge silicon in hardware from OEMs known for ’budget’ hardware is one thing, but when it comes to Apple, even the budget end is priced pretty high.

The we need to bear in mind that Sandy Bridge is first-generation. Apple could be gambling its substantial reputation on unproven technology. Apple likes to live on the cutting edge of technology, but I hope it’s done its homework if it plans on making a total shift to Intel for its cheaper notebooks.

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Adrian Kingsley-Hughes is an internationally published technology author who has devoted over a decade to helping users get the most from technology.

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Adrian Kingsley-Hughes

All opinions expressed on Hardware 2.0 are those of Adrian Kingsley-Hughes. Every effort is made to ensure that the information posted is accurate. If you have any comments, queries or corrections, please contact Adrian via the email link here. Any possible conflicts of interest will be posted below. [Updated: February 23, 2010] - Adrian Kingsley-Hughes has no business relationships, affiliations, investments, or other actual/potential conflicts of interest relating to the content posted so far on this blog.

Biography

Adrian Kingsley-Hughes

Adrian Kingsley-Hughes is an internationally published technology author who has devoted over a decade to helping users get the most from technology -- whether that be by learning to program, building a PC from a pile of parts, or helping them get the most from their new MP3 player or digital camera.

Adrian has authored/co-authored technical books on a variety of topics, ranging from programming to building and maintaining PCs. His most recent books include "Build the Ultimate Custom PC", "Beginning Programming" and "The PC Doctor's Fix It Yourself Guide". He has also written training manuals that have been used by a number of Fortune 500 companies.

Adrian also runs a popular blog under the name The PC Doctor, where he covers a range of computer-related topics -- from security to repairing and upgrading.

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Sandy Bridge Exposed
bburnaman 15th Dec 2010
There's a pretty good write up that seems to show that the Sandy Bridge integrated GPU is actually a huge step forward for Intel. Maybe Apple just knows what they are doing?

http://www.anandtech.com/show/3922/intels-sandy-bridge-architecture-exposed/5
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There are plenty of bloggers and talkbackers who will spend the next few months apologizing for any disappointing performance that may show up.
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And you'll go and buy one...
zkiwi 9th Dec 2010
And load W7 on it and claim it's all good all the while whining long and loud about any little thing Apple.
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Not likely
NonZealot Updated - 9th Dec 2010
@zkiwi
I don't buy cheap Apple products and I look down my nose at those who do. I bought the MacBook PRO which immediately makes me better than anyone who bought a regular old MacBook.
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lulz. [nt]
olePigeon 9th Dec 2010
[nt]
@NonZealot

Less money on things like MacBook Pros and Kinnects and maybe you can afford a house and move out of the condo.

You'd finally be able to fire up the Strat and not worry about the neighbors and make your wife proud.

Or you can start making some money by getting a real job. If you did, then you would probably not have time to post on Zdnet anymore and then what would we laugh at?
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Less money on things like MacBook Pros and Kinnects and maybe you can afford a house and move out of the condo.

What makes you think I couldn't afford a house had I wanted one? I admit, it would be difficult for me to afford a house in the neighborhood I live in but that is only because it is a very nice neighborhood. happy

I weighed the pros and cons very carefully and in the end, being mortgage free in a few years and having a (relatively) maintenance free home in a fantastic location beat out being able to play my Strat loudly at 3am. I'll admit, sometimes I do wish I could crank that movie at 11 PM but I'm not yet rich enough to afford the best of all worlds. sad And the couple thousand that I've spent on my MBP and Kinect wouldn't have made any difference at all. Interesting though that you felt $2,000 is a large sum of money when considering someone's net worth. happy
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@NonZealot
That is your biggest problem. You look down on others who don't choose the same as you. Somehow you have convinced yourself that your choices should fit everyone else.
@NonZealot

I can't hear you over the view in my place.

I just find $2000.00 a waste on a depreciating asset. I'll spend it if it makes sense.
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MacBook PRO which immediately makes me better than anyone who bought a regular old MacBook

I figured this was so over the top that there was no way anyone would think I was serious. It is actually quite telling though that you thought Apple users could actually be that conceited. In hind sight, you are right, most Apple users are that conceited. I'm not though. happy
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@mask: Explain
NonZealot 9th Dec 2010
I just find $2000.00 a waste on a depreciating asset.

Most assets are depreciating. Obviously then, there is more to a purchase than that.

I'll spend it if it makes sense.

What makes you think that these purchases didn't make sense to me? My MBP is a tool that I am able to use for both work and home and my Kinect is a leisure activity. You spend money on leisure activities that don't appreciate in value, right? happy

I can't hear you over the view in my place.

Hey, if you are wealthier than I, I'm happy for you! I stopped measuring my happiness based on my comparative wealth to those around me. It would make me miserable. I'm going to make an educated guess that there are plenty of people far wealthier than you too. That doesn't matter to you though, right?
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price?
snoop0x7b 10th Dec 2010
@NonZealot And of course apologizing for the price, you know apple would never drop their prices. It'll still be 999$ for a macbook with a C2Duo and 2 GB of ram + an intel card.
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Good grief!
frabjous 10th Dec 2010
Mr. Kingsley-Hughes bases a whole article on an unsubstantiated rumor about Apple, and then has the gall to say, "I hope it?s done its homework if it plans on making a total shift to Intel for its cheaper notebooks." So much for any pretense of responsible, or even useful, "reporting."
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Oddly I find I am agreeing with NZ!
kaninelupus 11th Dec 2010
@NonZealot

I have long been stunned at how while decisions made by Apple which would earn ANY OTHER company a whole world of pain from the backlash (recent example being Apple's decision to cease all support for Flash in both the iPad and the iPhone 4+ models), the Apple community just mutely nods their collective head and say "it's for our own good". Insanity.

As highlighted above, the high-end Mac users will remain unaffected, so no flak there. Meanwhile the lower-end Mac users will mutely trot along with the usual "we're not worthy" attitudes, and continue not to question their turtle-neck-wearing Masters. Again decisions made which, although would result in clamour and revolt from any other consumer market, will leave Apple unscathed!
@kaninelupus Your summary is flawed.

Apple did not drop or "cease all support" for flash, it was NEVER THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Also, at the time of the first 3 iPhones, NO smart phones had ay real support for flash. Only in the past few months have *SOME* certain Android phones gotten limited flash support.

The reason there hasn't been some mass consumer uprising (which surprises you so much) is because people bought Apple's mobile devices KNOWING there was no flash, no reason the think there would be flash in the future, and Apple stating OVER A YEAR AGO that since flash didn't perform well on their devices that they wer moving towards HTML5.
If you ever tried an Intel graphics card you already know they are crap. DirectX support is good but OpenGL support leaves a lot to be desired as well as trying to support newer versions of it.
@Loverock Davidson am with you on this one!
@Loverock Davidson

I would be right on board with this statement if I hadn't seen some different numbers from the new Sandy Bridge chipsets posted on Engadget.

They listed some surprising results:
:. In 3DMark06 a 2GHz Core i7-2630QM machine running Intel's integrated graphics scored 15,940, while a 2.2GHz i7-2720QM with AMD Radeon HD 6900M graphics nailed a 20,155 mark, and a 2.3GHz i7-2820QM chip paired with a GeForce GTX 460M GPU did 16,957. "

So the Intel is keeping up with the GTX 460M.. and not far off from the top of the line AMD chip. They may have actually made it happen this time... At this point though I don't even look at a laptop that runs Intel graphics. It will be interesting to see how this plays out with better benchmarking.
@beatphreek
Hey that is interesting.
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@beatphreek
Wow if this is as you say. Then ATI & NVIDA look out
I still think there is a X factor.
@Loverock Davidson - I agree with you ... but only for the pre-SB chipsets. The new SB chipsets offer more than enough GPU performance for the general user. If you're into high-end gaming, then you'll need more grunt, but for light gameplay and HD video encoding and playback, SB is MORE than adequate.

Go take a look at the reviews and number on the likes of AnandTech.
@bitcrazed
I agree, I'm not a devoted gamer but on occasion I like to step in and play various MMORPGs which do require a decent graphics card. I can get the intel card to work with them but the it will not be at the highest detail settings. If SB has changed this for the better then that is great news.
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Yes, for once you're right
snoop0x7b 10th Dec 2010
@Loverock Davidson Agree... one of the apps I work on is OpenGL accelerated, and I'm not quite satisfied with its performance on the machines with intel cards compared to the machines with ATI cards.
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Making assumptions
vulpine@... 10th Dec 2010
@Loverock Davidson :
How do you know that Sandy Bridge is going to be the same? Have you tried it? Have you read reviews on it?
Honestly, if you're going to make flat statements about something, don't you think you should have a little direct knowledge about the subject first?
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Not risking much
andrewjg 9th Dec 2010
The only reason nVidia is in the current laptops is because Apple requires CUDA support. Intel GPU's will offer CUDA support. So they have no problem. For all tasks except games the new Intel GPU will be more than adequate. And I don't believe gaming performance has anything to do with the popularity of Mac. At least not on its 13 inch machines. Is more about design, battery life, ease of use and image.
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And much graphics software.
Bruizer 9th Dec 2010
@andrewjg

I have lots of graphics software (Aperture for example) that makes heavy use of the GPU for image processing. I see huge differences when using the integrated graphics VS the discrete graphics.
@Bruizer
chipset yet? My point being I don't think it has been proven that the chipset that Apple "may" be considering has been settled upon nor that Apple "is" actually going to use it. Nor has anyone had a chance to actually use the chipset yet.

Pagan jim
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@Bruizer

The current integrated chips sets are pretty poor.
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Integrated sucks.
snoop0x7b 10th Dec 2010
@andrewjg The intel cards still use clock cycles from your CPU and will most likely share ram... Which will crap on your performance a bit.
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What if it's not "unproven" to Apple?
matthew_maurice Updated - 9th Dec 2010
First of all, we're talking about a suppostion on a rumor so this whole discussion may be academic. But putting that aside for a moment.

Apple is committed to maintaining high margins, but not at the expense of at least incremental performance increases. Higher margins mean nothing if you can't sell your premium-priced device because of performance concerns. MacBooks may be Apple's "entry-level" notebook computer, but they're creatainly not budget machines.

I'm betting Intel has been able to achieve fairly substantial performance increases over previous integrated graphcis solutions, and they have shown this to Apple. Apple understanding the value proposition is willing to go in that direction (assuming the rumors are true) because it will allow them to maintain their big, fat 35% margin.

Let's not forget that Apple has repeatedly shown that it feels no hardware or vendor obligation. Apple will use whatever platform or provider it feels best helps Apple get to where Apple wants to go, if that requires a re-write or a port-so be it.
I remember when Apple.com said Apple only use's Graphics made by ATI & nVida GPU's. "Never shared Graphics like PC's"
This was back in the PowerPC days. I think Intel will not offer anything like a true dedicated GPU as ATI & nVida can. I as well hope ATI gets there mobile GPU's to where there Desktop sisters are. We should not have to pay as much for intel's junk Graphics, Apple dose not.
For people running average "run of the mill" stuff they would not know the difference. BUT, if you are buying a MAC to begin with you would expect people to be doing some serious WORK of some type - or has Apple finally become main stream enough so that that the low end systems are now treated like a commodity similar to the vast majority of PC systems?
Cut out a video card and drop the price $50 while saving $125 in costs is a good business move. If they are expecting the vast number so people to buy it and never upgrade it at all and never do anything computational hard with it and if they start to buy another system then it is a good move.
The intel graphics chipsets may be crap if you want to do things like gaming....

But if you are using one of these small notebooks how they are typically used it should be more than enough power. What is typical for a 13" screen and under? Checking email, surfing the web, doing facebook.... you might possibly push the little notebook by joining an online meeting/webinar or watching a netflix movie on it.

Simply put, people aren't using these small notebooks for "gaming" so they don't need a beefy graphics setup. What people want out of them is portability, battery life, and well... with apple products "sexiness".

Personally, if the switch means more battery life in a more compact package, its a win-win situation.

Just to note, I haven't purchased a new laptop for almost 7 years. I just trashed my Sager which finally died. Honestly, as far as a computer goes, I only need a desktop. I can do everything else I need (while traveling) on my Blackberry (mostly email). If you want my opinion, for 90% of people, notebooks are just a waste of money anyways.
"The we need to bear in mind that Sandy Bridge is first-generation. Apple could be gambling its substantial reputation on unproven technology."

But lets remember who Apple's market is. They tend to be early adopters, so there isn't exactly anything new about apple marketing "new and unproven technology". If anything that is one of apple's biggest strengths (iPod?).
@keitha73: ...no matter what Apple does.
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Apple has a budget notebook?
ye Updated - 10th Dec 2010
"Apple risking performance (and reputation) by switching to Intel for budget notebook graphics?"

Can you provide me a link? I'd like to check it out.
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Another article out today says that AlienWare also plans to use the package in some of their gaming laptops as well. So is it really a gamble, or do these two companies know something we don't?
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You bet!
frabjous 10th Dec 2010
@vulpine@... " or do these two companies know something we don't?" Of course they do, that's why they are creating products and "we" are just using them. Does Intel confide future plans to you or me? Of course not, but they sure do to AlienWare, Apple and many others.
Do you know why you don't find any AMD products in Apple's lineup? They aren't monopoly approved like Apple and Intel. (enter drumroll here) 1000 bucks for a 2 year old processor with the RAM of a netbook, I guess you get what you pay for.
@trust2112@... Understood--but aside from CPUs, don't forget that AMD owns ATI, and Apple does use several ATU GPUs
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What?
Jimster480 10th Dec 2010
There is no such thing as Apple budget machines. there cheapest laptop is what, $1000? How is that a budget machine? Considering you can get a fully equipped HP laptop for under 1k. Putting anything but top notch hardware in a mac is just pathetic on their part.
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I thought...
nix_hed 11th Dec 2010
...that Sandy Bridge is supposed to be DX9/OGL2.1 capable, and not DX10/OGL3.x or DX11/OGL4.x. Why would Apple want to take a step backward when that means they're throwing out OpenCL compatibility?
I agree with others' skepticism here, because experience wil older intel graphics has been HORRIBLE: the intel GMA 900 was just awful and BARELY adequate for video playback.

However if these benchmarks are true, and we get performance on-par with currently shipping NVidia 320M, then I'm all for it.

Apple doesn't want to lose performance, but they are hard-core focused on battery life--which is what Sandy Bridge is all about.

In the MBP like, it would be nice to see these along-side more commonly respected GPUs for more advanced performance when needed, including OpenCL
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Sandy Bridge Exposed
bburnaman 15th Dec 2010
There's a pretty good write up that seems to show that the Sandy Bridge integrated GPU is actually a huge step forward for Intel. Maybe Apple just knows what they are doing?

http://www.anandtech.com/show/3922/intels-sandy-bridge-architecture-exposed/5

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