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Adrian Kingsley-Hughes

Calm down, Windows 8 DOES support Flash

By | September 15, 2011, 8:00am PDT

Summary: Don’t panic! Internet Explorer 10 on Windows 8 will still allow you to use all your favorite plug-ins, including Flash.

Does Windows 8 support Flash? Yes, yes it does, so don’t believe the trolling headlines.

Take this headline for example, from Cult of Mac:

I can sum up that headline with a single graphic:

Here’s the deal. Windows 8 will ship with effectively two browsers … a standard Internet Explorer 10 that you’ll do your web browsing through and a second Metro-style app. The standard IE10 will support plug-in like Flash just as it does today. However, the Metro version of the browser will not. If you’re using the Metro browser and you need to make use of a plug-in such as Flash, you can switch to the standard browser and get access to plug-in goodness.

Here’s the Metro-style browser:

Here’s the regular IE10:

You can also switch between the Metro browser and the standard with a couple of clicks:

And if IE doesn’t float your twig, install a different browser!

It makes sense that the Metro-style IE doesn’t support plug-ins because the Metro UI loads in at the start … can you imagine what sort of performance hit might occur from having to load a bunch of plug-ins? There’s also the issue of security to consider.

Worried that the ARM version will not support Flash? Don’t! ARM and Adobe are working closely to make sure ARM is not left behind (it’s unclear if the ARM version of Windows will have the classic desktop, but everything I’m hearing suggests that it will .. we’ll see).

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Adrian Kingsley-Hughes is an internationally published technology author who has devoted over a decade to helping users get the most from technology.

Disclosure

Adrian Kingsley-Hughes

All opinions expressed on Hardware 2.0 are those of Adrian Kingsley-Hughes. Every effort is made to ensure that the information posted is accurate. If you have any comments, queries or corrections, please contact Adrian via the email link here. Any possible conflicts of interest will be posted below. [Updated: February 23, 2010] - Adrian Kingsley-Hughes has no business relationships, affiliations, investments, or other actual/potential conflicts of interest relating to the content posted so far on this blog.

Biography

Adrian Kingsley-Hughes

Adrian Kingsley-Hughes is an internationally published technology author who has devoted over a decade to helping users get the most from technology -- whether that be by learning to program, building a PC from a pile of parts, or helping them get the most from their new MP3 player or digital camera.

Adrian has authored/co-authored technical books on a variety of topics, ranging from programming to building and maintaining PCs. His most recent books include "Build the Ultimate Custom PC", "Beginning Programming" and "The PC Doctor's Fix It Yourself Guide". He has also written training manuals that have been used by a number of Fortune 500 companies.

Adrian also runs a popular blog under the name The PC Doctor, where he covers a range of computer-related topics -- from security to repairing and upgrading.

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RE: Calm down, Windows 8 DOES support Flash
T-Wrench Updated - 19th Sep
@PatrickBay.ca Well that's kind of funny also, since most Apple fans, haven't said anything about Win 8 sucking or anything else. Matter of fact the only fanboys I hear are the strictly MS camp saying Win 8 will blow off Apple's Ipads, and that Apple is going down...So please try and get your facts straight....Thanks..
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Why does Cult of Mac care?
toddybottom Updated - 15th Sep
There is something very odd going on with the Apple community. It seems that they have a new mission: spread as much FUD about Microsoft as is humanly possible.

I don't quite understand why. Steve Jobs himself said that MS didn't have to lose for Apple to win so why is it so important for such a large majority of the Apple community that MS loses? The sad thing is that these Apple sites and pro-Apple talkbackers on ZDNet really make themselves look like idiots every time they write.
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@toddybottom

Because they are fanatics, a fanatic is someone who believes that it is not good enough to simply 'win', everyone else must also lose.
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lol
oneleft 15th Sep
@toddybottom
the pot calling the kettle black. really, funny funny stuff!
of course the cult of softies are so innocent when it comes to these matters.
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Sources...
spdragoo@... 15th Sep
@oneleft

Might help your case if you could specify where "Cult of Softies" members have claimed that OS X didn't have a feature & they were then proven to be wrong.
raises its head. Death by viruses and trojans is another one. Massive security vulnerabilities is a third.
@oneleft
MS doesn't have to care about apple. They're not able to take away the big money making enterprise market. Apple already tried as hard as they could. Remember "hi I'm a mac". all those millions and they still couldn't gain any additional % market shares. Apple cares about gaining on MS. But MS doesn't care about apple gaining because MS knows apple can't do it.
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Windows 8 won't support plugins
guihombre 15th Sep
....but IE10 does and Firefox does and these come bundled with Windows 8, so there's a workaround.

"The sad thing is that these Apple sites and pro-Apple talkbackers on ZDNet really make themselves look like idiots every time they write"

No the sad thing is Metro won't support plugins, so no stock trading (Java) in Metro, no flash games, no flash video sites. No autoproxy, no acrobat reader, no lots of things.

They work in Android, it's part of the reason Android overtook iPhone.
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@guihombre
Android was thrown on every phone - expensive/cheap/free it didn't matter, whatever they could find.

I talk with people and they say "I have an Android Phone" but admit when asked they have no idea what Android is, they just bought the $49.99 phone.

To be honest, I haven't heard one person tell me they bought it for Flash.
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@guihombre

If you read Microsoft's reasoning, you'll see that it makes sense. Speed, battery life and security are all compromised by these plugins, especially Java and Flash.
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Wait a minute...
spdragoo@... 15th Sep
@guihombre

If the software that will be running in Windows 8 supports the plug-ins, then Windows will be supporting the plug-ins. I mean, seriously, I don't expect Windows XP to start looking for the "correct plug-in" when I click on my desktop icons... & I would shudder to think of the possible security ramifications if a smartphone OS used *plug-ins* to start apps.

Unless people are somehow expecting Windows 8's Metro to be essentially a "super-app" that treats all other apps as "super plug-ins".
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Re: Windows 8 won't support plugins
csteinola Updated - 16th Sep
@guihombre Huh? "Workaround"?? What workaround? It's ALWAYS been this way. Even on a Mac. The OS's don't support plugins (particularly plugins like Flash or Java). It's the applications that RUN on those OS's that support plugins. For my OS to run Java, it runs the Java application... it's not a "plugin". To view Flash, I either launch the Flash player APPLICATION or launch a web browser that has a Flash player plugin. There is no Flash player "plugin" for the OS itself. Unless you're under the disillusion that applications (like Excel and iTunes) are somehow "plugins".

I doubt very much that normal folks buy Android phones, even in part, because they support Flash. 99% of consumers wouldn't even know what Flash is or when (or when not) they're viewing it. Really, only techies really care. No, as @William Farrell said, the real reason Android has gained marketshare is because folks could get it cheap and it is in plentiful supply.
@William Farrell, csteinola - "the real reason Android has gained marketshare is because folks could get it cheap and it is in plentiful supply."

Oh please. Wake me up when the iP5 notification UI finally catches up with Android v1, 2008. Or when you have a free choice of installable software, mobile carrier, can upgrade your battery/storage and can choose to install your choice of OS / launcher / Swype keyboard.

Cheaper (??20pm, 18m, unlim data) AND better spec'd (bow at my 4.3" SuperAMOLED SGS with 40GB+ storage) .. AND a better UI user experience IMO. But don't let that interrupt your amusing "they only buy em coz they're cheap!" delusions.
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@guihombre I don't know where the other people replying to your post get their info, but a number of us chose Android because it supports flash. Most web based training is based on some form of Flash. If you want to put tablets in a training lab, they better support Flash or you better be ready for a large bill to convert your training materials.

I am sure that there is a large population buying smart phones of all flavors who really only need a phone and SMS, but there are specific uses that need Flash or Java or whatever and for those business uses it continues to be a requirement that you can do business with the device.
@William Farrell
Most people won't buy a product because it supports/does not support flash. I agree. Most average consumers don't have a clue as to what it is. Heck, lots of shrills proclaiming html5 will replace flash obviously don't know what Flash is.

However, all an average person needs to do is go to a website and see that blank download plug-in graphics will know that something ain't quite right in kansas. Eventually, out of curiosity they will ask someone what that means. They may not care about Flash but will care about content. I was on the us open web site with a ifanboy just recently. We both went online to check on live scores. He sheepishly just put his phone away as if I got the score faster than he did so why bother. But I knew why. I turned to him and said "can't read the flash scores on the site can you, its ok you can go to the plain html page for a more plain jane experience. no need to hide your phone's deficiency" happy
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@toddybottom

@msalzberg - don't forget. Java and Flash were created because nobody had open standards. Each company tweaked HTML and other languages for their own benefit, forcing developers to work on solely one platform or use more time than should need be to compile to competing platforms.

And fragmentation will remain: http://www.splatf.com/2011/07/brightcove-html5-sponsored/
But there are a number of articles and blog entries.

New boss = old boss.
The king is dead, long live the king.
etc.

Java and Flash are alive and well - even your blu-ray player runs on Java...

And Apple badmouthed Flash because Flash games compete with their closed market. Which is more profitable for Apple, allowing Flash or compelling people to buy Canabalt for $4 (of which they get $1.30 for each sale) instead? That's a simple enough question that even the DOJ should know is sheer anti-competitive behavior. Period.
@HypnoToad72 ... End of story.

Pagan Jim
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@HypnoToad72
I doubt that was the only reason. Can you say resource hog?

If anything, you should be bashing Adobe for not coming up with a lightweight version of Flash for tablets. Never mind the security question with Flash becoming a tunnel for malware.
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RE: Calm down, Windows 8 DOES support Flash
Habiloso Updated - 15th Sep
@toddybottom

Do not try to pretend that therre are only Mac fanatics. There are MS fanatics, Linux fanatics, BSD fanatics and so on. And each type of fanatic spreads FUD about the others. Anyone who regularly reads your posts knows that you are no better.
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@toddybottom

Some of it is directed by Apple. It's to do with the movement to HTML5 and MS's well thought out road map. While IE10 in Mango and Win 8 supports comprehensive HTML 5, Apple is still restricting the use of the tag in iOS to prevent fully interactive HTML 5 multimedia apps surpassing their proprietary apps produced with their terrible development system and losing the 30% they charge for the privilege.

My current web apps use HTML 5 or Flash for audio and video and they work on all browsers and platforms except iOS as it doesn't support real HTML 5 or Flash. About time Apple gave up its transparent attempt to lock people into their proprietary apps and embraced web apps - even though they won't be able to gouge money from the developers.

A large part of community reaction is OS envy. Despite massive amounts of lipstick, BSD Unix (OS/X) is showing its age and even rusted on Apple fanbois are starting to realise that MS produces modern, smart software and Apple doesn't.
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NEW MISSON?
TheWerewolf 15th Sep
@toddybottom

Seriously, which planet HAVE you been visiting since 1998.

Jobs may have said that (I honestly doubt it though), but everything he's done since getting back in charge of Apple has been about slamming and slagging Microsoft.

You didn't see the "Hello, I'm a PC... And I'm a Mac" ads? You haven't seen any Jobs keynote? This is not new...
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From All Thing Digital:
msalzberg 17th Sep
@TheWerewolf

"If the game was a zero-sum game where if Apple wanted to win, Microsoft had to lose, then Apple was going to lose. But Apple didn???t have to beat Microsoft. It had to remember what Apple was."

http://allthingsd.com/20070530/d5-gates-jobs-interview/
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Why does toddybottom care?
ScorpioBlue 18th Sep
@toddybottom
the pot calling the kettle black. really, funny funny stuff!
of course the cult of softies are so innocent when it comes to these matters.


Yeah, especially when this sock puppet claims to own Apple equipment yet bashes it at every turn. The kind of lies NonZealot used to tell us. Remember? wink
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@toddybottom I think they do it just to read all of your idiot comments, it does give everyone a good laugh for the day...Are you really that naive that you believe there's a whole conspiracy going on?

C'mon Toddy bottom Perry, die for apple NZ. You always have more intelligent posts in the past..You can do better, I know you can....
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I go away a couple days and this forum is practically unusable. Is this site running on Linux and someone forgot to compile it properly?
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RE: Calm down, Windows 8 DOES support Flash
Return_of_the_jedi Updated - 15th Sep
@toddybottom

Pisst. Linux is a kernel. If the site is up, the kernel is working.

PS. When you burn pop-corn do you blame it on the kernel? You probably blame that on Linux too.
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@Return_of_the_jedi Psst, Linux is a monolithic kernel.
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Linux is a toddybottom obsession
ScorpioBlue 18th Sep
And it's the greatest 1% in the whole wide western world. Whole monopolistic corporations fear it. And that's a good thing.

happy
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Misunderstanding
warpdag Updated - 15th Sep
I think Cult of Mac is correct. They're clearly saying Windows 8 *Tablet* won't support Flash, and that's correct. Metro was built for netbooks and tablets. Windows 8 will, but again, they're talking about the tablet version. Not sure who's the troll here.
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Contributr
@warpdag MSFT is also saying it won't port non-ARM apps to the tablet version, so the "regular" IE10 won't be on ARM-based tablets. That's how I read what they're saying, anyway.
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RE: Calm down, Windows 8 DOES support Flash
regsrini Updated - 15th Sep
@JamesKendrick
Sorry for not remembering where, but I read somewhere about an ARM tablet running the old Windows interface and MS Office as well. MS is confusing everybody with incomplete message.
Another reason I want to believe that tablets will run Flash on Windows is that ARM probably also has a future in the small size laptop market, the one where Ultrabooks are going to live.
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@warpdag I thought the whole point was that Windows 8 was Windows 8, regardless of what device it was on. Why go through all the trouble of making all of the applications have a touch-friendly ribbon in the classic view if it's never going to be used.
@Aerowind You have a point, but like James said earlier Metro was made specifically for low power devices such as ARM. I haven't seen that "regular" IE10 will run on ARM. It's actually not very clear.
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All things Win8 run on both ARM and x86
spaulagain Updated - 15th Sep
@Aerowind

They are all one in the same. You can toggle between both the Metro-tile UI and Desktop UI. MS already showed this at the BUILD conference running on ARM devices.

People need to stop guessing from the benches, most of this information has already been given by Microsoft but the tech blogosphere is usually to ignorant to actually disclose that info correctly.

It is ONE OS that works both on ARM and x86. And all applications will work across the those two fields.
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@spaulagain

Microsoft has said that applications will NOT work across X86 and ARM.

""We've been very clear since the very first CES demos and forward that the ARM product won't run any x86 applications," said Stephen Sinofsky, president of Microsoft Windows unit "

http://informationweek.com/news/windows/operatingsystems/231601473
@msalzberg

An app compiled for an x86 will not run on ARM. HOWEVER, an app developed within the MS development tool set will be able to be compiled for both x86 and ARM. Meaning, if you write an app, you can export two versions, one for ARM and one for x86 without much/any additional code.
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@warpdag Microsoft gave out 5,000 Window 8 tablets to developers and it has the Metro UI and the traditional Windows side. From what Microsoft has explained, both of these UIs will exist in the same machine. So all these Windows 8 tablets work with plugins such as Flash Player and Silverlight, it's just they have to be viewed in the traditional Windows side.

Apparently the user experience is even nice, with a message saying that they cannot view that content and a click of the button will switch the user to the traditional Windows side.

Also note that Flash Player already works on ARM chips, as that's how it's able to work on Android devices.
@Matt_Fabb@... Except that all those tablets are Intel Atom-based, not ARM machines. So the tablet complaint is still valid, since ARM seems to be the low-cost, low-power chip of choice for this platform.
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RE: Calm down, Windows 8 DOES support Flash
PatrickBay.ca Updated - 17th Sep
@Matt_Fabb@... Ahh, the inconvenient truth. Now, I'm not even going to try to scroll down because I just know someone or other will say "Yeah, but Flash isn't for X operating system!"

If that's true, does that in any way mean it can't be? If Adobe sees the numbers being big enough, they'll write a native port just like they did for x86. or x64. or Linux. Or iOS. or OSX. or Atom. etc. etc.
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A little misleading, though.
spdragoo@... 15th Sep
@warpdag

As both Cult of Mac's site & Microsoft are saying, it's not the Metro UI *interface* that won't support the Flash plug-in, it's the "Metro" version of IE10 that won't support the plug-in.

On the one hand, yes, that's the same kind of issue that the iPad has (i.e. the iPad browser doesn't support Flash).

On the *other* hand... do we have anything definitive from *Microsoft* saying that tablets using Windows 8 will not be able to access the "classic desktop" version...& thus be able to access the Flash-enabled "desktop" IE10? If the tablets can't access the desktop, then yes, Microsoft is getting the same bashing they dished onto Apple. But if tablets can access the full desktop of Windows 8... then Microsoft has a leg up on Apple.
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@spdragoo@...

They have specifically shown tablets access both the Tile UI and the Desktop UI. They even went over what screen sizes are required for the Tile UI. This has all been covered. If people just watch the video of the BUILD conference on the first day, it covers it all.
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@spaulagain

Thanks, I haven't had a chance to watch through the video yet. Will have to check that out for myself.
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RE: Calm down, Windows 8 DOES support Flash
T-Wrench Updated - 16th Sep
@spdragoo@... So, just like an Ipad, which you can download different apps to run flash, all you have to do is switch to a different browser?

Except MS will include the browser to run flash, and you have to download an ap for the Ipad.....I don't see how its a big deal either way....
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While you are correct, yes, Flash Player will still be supported in the "desktop" mode of IE10, the default "mode" most users will see/interact with when they boot up their computers is "Metro". Just by making the plug-in free version of the browser the default option, Microsoft is ensuring that fewer users will use Flash-based sites/content. Power users will continue to download Firefox and Chrome and will use the "desktop" version of IE10, but odds are the majority of users that simply access email, browse the web, and play a few games of solitaire or use Facebook and Twitter won't need to use the "desktop" version of IE10 (except to play Flash games in Facebook, until those get replaced by HTML5 versions). By pushing Flash to the side by default, Microsoft ensures that Flash content will be diminished.

One of the benefits Flash Player has had is that it's installed on over 90% of the world's PCs. So a developer knew they could write a program once, and it would run on most any PC anywhere. Now, with the massive sales of iOS devices and smartphones (which only 36% of smartphones have Flash on them), Flash Player penetration across all web-capable devices is actually falling. If Windows 8 tablets do not support Flash by default in IE10 without extra effort by the user, that is a blow to Flash.

Microsoft effectively stated in the blog that in today's web, they do not see the need for plug-ins. Regardless of whether or not they allow users to use plug-ins in the "desktop" mode of IE10, they are obviously moving towards a plug-in free future.

As a Flex developer, this is anything but comforting. While I believe Flex/Flash will be viable in the future for AIR and mobile apps, I don't see it as viable for web applications past the very near future, unless Adobe brings some massive changes to the platform.
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But the scammers will also worry
spdragoo@... 15th Sep
@Geistwolf

After all, that's why there's been so much trouble with Flash-powered malware; the malware writers knew that, unless people kept their Flash updated to plug the security holes, they could infect a ton of PCs simultaneously.
Starting with "Missunderstanding" you guys are missing the boat. All devices get a full windows experience. ARM, Tablet, Intel what ever. That means a full and Metro IE.
(From working ASUS Eee Slate Ep121 + Developer Preview)
@pelleg

No, all devices won't get the same experience. Full IE won't be ported to ARM.

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9220042/Echoing_Apple_Microsoft_bans_Flash_from_Metro_IE10_in_Windows_8
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RE: Calm down, Windows 8 DOES support Flash
spaulagain Updated - 15th Sep
@msalzberg

No, wrong again you are. the Metro version of IE10 does not support it. However, the desktop version does. And since the Desktop UI/IE10 is available on both ARM and x86, it will be available on tablets.

If you watched the video from the Microsoft BUILD conference, you would know this. But since you are miss quoting a non-Microsoft source, you just made yourself look like an idiot and are completely wrong.
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Who looks like an idiot?
msalzberg 15th Sep
@spaulagain

"We've been very clear since the very first CES demos and forward that the ARM product won't run any x86 applications," said Stephen Sinofsky, president of Microsoft Windows unit.

The Desktop IE as of now is x86 only. The Metro runs on both x86 and ARM.

The video from the BUILD conference shows an x86 machine.
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@msalzberg

You are still wrong. If you compile the app for ARM it will work. From what they were saying, an x86 compiled app will not work on ARM, obviously. However, with their tool set, my understanding is that developers can compile for both x86 and ARM without much additional work.
Yeah, the title is misleading and for the most part, wrong, but the actual article is clear that they're only talking about the Metro interface, not the web browser. I'm presuming you'll still have access to regular IE on your tablet for browsing the internet. Or, for that matter, any other web browser.
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RE: Calm down, Windows 8 DOES support Flash
T-Wrench Updated - 19th Sep
@PatrickBay.ca Well that's kind of funny also, since most Apple fans, haven't said anything about Win 8 sucking or anything else. Matter of fact the only fanboys I hear are the strictly MS camp saying Win 8 will blow off Apple's Ipads, and that Apple is going down...So please try and get your facts straight....Thanks..

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