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Hardware 2.0

Adrian Kingsley-Hughes

In-depth look at Windows 7

By | November 6, 2008, 10:39am PST

Summary: Given that I knew most of you would be virtually blasted out of your chairs by a “shock and awe” of Windows 7 reviews once the news embargo on the OS was lifted (combined with the fact that I only got my hands on a copy of Build 6801 a couple of days later), I decided to take my time to get to knows the OS before I shared with you my thoughts and feelings about Microsoft’s latest OS.

Given that I knew most of you would be virtually blasted out of your chairs by a “shock and awe” of Windows 7 reviews once the news embargo on the OS was lifted (combined with the fact that I only got my hands on a copy of Build 6801 a couple of days later), I decided to take my time to get to knows the OS before I shared with you my thoughts and feelings about Microsoft’s latest OS.

Check out the Windows 7 install/UI gallery here!
Windows 7 image gallery

Previous gallery here

UPDATE: Also check out Windows 7’s troubleshooting tools post!

Installation

Installing Windows 7 is quick … very quick! I managed to get Windows 7 installed and ready to go in under 15 minutes on one system - a time that makes Vista seem like a lumbering dinosaur.

 

 

Beyond the speed boost, the setup process for Windows 7 Build 6801 is pretty much the same as for Vista in that you interact with it at the beginning and the end of the process, but for the most part it gets on with the install by itself.

Next –>

Topics

Adrian Kingsley-Hughes is an internationally published technology author who has devoted over a decade to helping users get the most from technology.

Disclosure

Adrian Kingsley-Hughes

All opinions expressed on Hardware 2.0 are those of Adrian Kingsley-Hughes. Every effort is made to ensure that the information posted is accurate. If you have any comments, queries or corrections, please contact Adrian via the email link here. Any possible conflicts of interest will be posted below. [Updated: February 23, 2010] - Adrian Kingsley-Hughes has no business relationships, affiliations, investments, or other actual/potential conflicts of interest relating to the content posted so far on this blog.

Biography

Adrian Kingsley-Hughes

Adrian Kingsley-Hughes is an internationally published technology author who has devoted over a decade to helping users get the most from technology -- whether that be by learning to program, building a PC from a pile of parts, or helping them get the most from their new MP3 player or digital camera.

Adrian has authored/co-authored technical books on a variety of topics, ranging from programming to building and maintaining PCs. His most recent books include "Build the Ultimate Custom PC", "Beginning Programming" and "The PC Doctor's Fix It Yourself Guide". He has also written training manuals that have been used by a number of Fortune 500 companies.

Adrian also runs a popular blog under the name The PC Doctor, where he covers a range of computer-related topics -- from security to repairing and upgrading.

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To NonZealot:
Joel R Updated - 25th Nov 2008
?Version = Major.Minor.Build
Technically they could call it anything they want, but
they usually stay pretty close to what is universally
excepted. 2000 was a major release and XP was a minor
release. 10.1.1 to 10.5.5 is still the same major
release.?

That?s the theory, yes. But, there is an old saying:
?In theory, things should work in practice the same
way they do in theory, but in practice that?s not
always true.? happy

You see, marketing has messed things up here.
In the specific case of Mac OS X, Apple painted
themselves into a corner with the product name, which
depends on the version number.

Mac OS Classic ran from Versions 1 through 9. The
first seven major versions were called simply ?System
#? where ?#? was the Major Version Number according to
the pattern you described.

System 7 was the last to be named that way. The next
version was marketed as Mac OS 8 (a name that caused
some confusion among old Digital Equipment Corporation
minicomputer programmers/users such as myself who used
DEC PDP-8 minicomputers running DEC OS/8), followed by
Mac OS 9 (which caused confusion among slightly
younger programmers who had known the rather cool for
its time OS-9 multi-tasking multi-user
operating system originally available for Motorola
6809-based computers such as the Radio Shack Color
Computer 2 or 3, and other 8-bit 6809-based devices ?
it was the OS at the heart of the short-lived CDi
interactive CD set-top-box platform ? another version
called “OS-9/68k” was made for the 680x0
32-bit CPUs).

Mac OS X was a completely new OS, and really should
have been numbered starting with 1.0. But Jobs
couldn?t resist that the ?X? in Unix and X-windows,
both of which were technologies that Mac OS X either
used or could use, was also the Roman Numeral for ?ten
(10).? And the previous and last Mac OS Classic was
version 9. So the next should be 10, right? X = 10.
Indeed, to this very day, the preferred pronunciation
is ?Mac Oh Ess Ten,? not ?Mac Oh Ess
Ecks.?

The problem is, no matter how you look at it, this
naming / numbering scheme has nowhere to go!

If Apple sticks with the Roman Numerals scheme, what
would the next version be called? Mac OS XI? That
doesn?t look anywhere near as cool from a
marketing standpoint, nor does it resonate as well
with UniX or X11 geeks. Besides, after
awhile it would get rather unwieldy: we?d soon be at
Mac OS XVIII!

If Apple were to go with the more popular
interpretation of the ?X? simply being the
letter ?X,? then the next version would be the
considerably less-cool ?Mac OS Y? (no more resonance
with UniX, X11, etc.) followed by ?Mac OS Z? ?
and then what? ?Mac OS AA?? Like spreadsheet
columns past the 26th column in Excel?

Besides, all three of those would have built-in insult
puns that anti-Mac people such as yourself would just
love to pounce on: ?Mac OS: WHY!??, ?Mac OS:
ZZZzzz(snore)?, and, of course, ?Mac OS: Alcoholics
Anonymous: the OS that will Drive you to Drink!? I
think not.

Even the ?big cat? naming scheme is running its
course. The original 10.0 was code-named ?Cheetah?
(though not marketed as such) so they already used up
the fastest of the big cats (and the fastest of
the land animals in general). Then Puma (10.1), Jaguar
10.2), Panther (10.3), and Tiger (10.4), thus using
up the strongest of the big cats already. Now we?re on
Leopard, which is slower than a Cheetah and weaker
than a Tiger, and thus a step backwards. To ?stretch?
this naming scheme, the next version is Snow Leopard,
a mere type of leopard (too bad they didn?t use
?Black Panther? ? that one?s wasted). 10.6 will be
?Lion,? thus using up the biggest of the big cats and
the one called “The King of Beasts.”
What?s left? Ocelot? Cougar? Bobcat? Siamese? Tabby?
Calico (a genetic defect)? There?s not exactly a lot
of room for improvement here, either.

While this doesn?t help the feline situation, as far
as either Roman numerals go or letters, Apple is
pretty much stuck with the number 10 as the Major
Version Number for reasons given above, even if in
reality we should be long past that by now.

10.1 Puma pretty much was a Service Pack, and
was in fact free to 10.0 owners. Puma was the first
actually usable version of Mac OS X, as Cheetah was
basically a buggy beta released to the general public
(which, as you well know, Microsoft also does: nobody
in their right mind ever uses any Microsoft OS
for mission critical apps until SP1 at the earliest,
and XP didn?t become truly decent until SP2).

But none of the others are service packs. 10.2 Jaguar,
10.3 Panther, 10.4 Tiger, and 10.5 Leopard have all
added substantial functionality both to the underlying
OS and to the user interface and features obvious to
the end user, at least as substantial as the
changes from, say, Windows 2000 to Windows XP (though,
as noted, that is also a ?dot release? that Microsoft
charged for: NT 5.0 to 5.1). I would even put them on
a par with the change from Windows NT to Windows 2000
(4.0 to 5.0).

Microsoft also has charged for what, even by
your definition, would be a service pack even
from the marketing name, at least once: Windows 98
Second Edition was a paid upgrade to Windows 98
First Edition owners.

Frankly, though, given when the actual major changes
occurred, Windows 95B/OSR2 should really have been
marketed and sold as Windows 96 (it introduced FAT32,
a major upgrade to its hard disk handling), and
Windows 95C/OSR2.5 should?ve been Windows 97 (or maybe
Windows 96 SE ? it introduced USB support, arguably
the most significant enhancement in usability
of computer peripherals in general since the personal
computer got started!). Windows 98SE could easily have
been Windows 99 ? to this day, you can find many
software packages that list Windows 98SE as a Minimum
System Requirement: they would work under 98SE, but
not under 98 First Edition ? strange
indeed for what is supposedly the same OS! Adobe, for
instance, recommends a different, earlier maximum
version of Adobe Acrobat Reader for 95 through 98
First Edition vs. the one it recommends for
Windows 98SE and ME (ME really was just a paid
service pack to 98SE from a technical POV, and a lousy
one at that).
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How much ?
Alan Smithie 6th Nov 2008
That will be the question with W7, especially for home users. If M$ think that they can stiff me for 4 x licences (4 PCs at home) then they need to go away and have a serious rethink on pricing. Say $129 for up to 5 PCs at home then that is not unreasonable, otherwise they are seriously taking the piss out of this customer and it will be opensuse or ubuntu all the way. I'm not having my pockets raped so some overweight CEO can have a yacht the size of the Titanic !
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Contributr
Good point ...
Adrian Kingsley-Hughes 6th Nov 2008
... Apple make it cheap for home users, Microsoft needs to gdo the same.
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NT
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ummm....
mikefarinha 6th Nov 2008
is this a toung-n-cheek response?

Apple is anything but cheap.
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If you already have the HW...
justthinking 6th Nov 2008
...it's cheap(er) as you get 5 uses per license when you upgrade. I have no idea who has 5 Mac products though...must be rich Catholics...
  • Flagged
it's cheap(er) as you get 5 uses per license when you upgrade

Apple charges for each service pack, MS doesn't. To keep up with the latest security patches and OS improvements, you would have had to pay for 4 OS X upgrades in the same amount of time that Windows users paid for 1.
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MS does charge for SP's actually
fr0thy2 6th Nov 2008
98SE, Millenium, XP, Vista, now 7.
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Um, what?
Cylon Centurion 6th Nov 2008
Windows 7 isn't a service pack. A service pack is a collection of updates. Windows 7 is an entirely new OS...
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Ha Ha. Not
Cayble 6th Nov 2008
Loony talk.
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It would appear
AllKnowingAllSeeing 6th Nov 2008
that you don't learn much living under a rock. So why not move on out from under it, get a life of some sort?

Just throwing you an idea. We'll give you more from time to time as we should all help the disadvantaged. wink
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Versions and SP....
ShadowGIATL 6th Nov 2008
"98SE, Millenium, XP, Vista, now 7. "

While I see your point in where your going with this... I feel inclinde to point out that SP's are upgrades to an existing version codebase.

Win 3.1 - Win 3.11 would be the same codebase.
Win NT is on a separete codebase.
Win 95 stems from the Win 3.1 code, but is versioned as 4.0
Win 98 could be called a major SP if you wanted to, but 98SE and XP share very little codebase as XP is built from the NT tree. it is also versioned as 5.1 making it more of a SP to 2000 which is 5.0

Confused yet? It's not that hard really. 98SE and XP are both from different code and different major versions.

Versions work like this:
Major.Minor.Build
Win 98 = 4.10.1998
Win 98SE = 4.10.2222
Win Vista = 6.0.6000
Win Vista SP1 = 6.0.6001

SP only increase the build number. If it changes the minor it is an R2. If it changes the major it is considered a new OS as enough has changed to make it different enough to be a new product.

OSX.... 10.1.1 to 10.5.5 are all the same OS, just multiple SP and re-releases.

The point that Apple does technically charge for its SP does stand. The confusion comes in how they label it. Mac doesn't use the term service pack. Instead it chooses to call it a build which is correct, however misleading to some users in making them believe it is more then it really is.

Most users don't upgrade until they have passed a few builds anyway, but at least MS gives you the option to increase your build for free for the lifetime of the minor release.

Win 95 was a major release as it increased from 3.1 to 4.0. Win 98 was a minor release because it was version 4.1. 2000 was major at 5.0 and XP minor at 5.1. Vista major at 6.0 and Win 7 minor at 6.1.
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Clueless as usual...
Wolfie2K3 7th Nov 2008
Once again, you're ignorance is showing... Buy a clue before you open your yap and insert your foot. Have something intelligent and maybe factual to contribute before you start babbling incoherently...

98 (and SE), ME are part of the MS DOS flavored codebase. They can trace their origin back to Windows 3.0, 3.1x and 95. 2000, XP, Vista and 7 are based on NT. Different critter entirely.
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Not this again!
ye 7th Nov 2008
An SP is whatever the company producing the software calls an SP. Everyone needs to stop applying their definition.

Microsoft has clearly defined what an SP is: Software they release that is called a "Service Pack". There's no ambiguity about it.

Apple has essentially done the same thing (except they don't specifically call them service packs). It is that software which increments the third digit of the version number. While not formally defined they have been very consistent with this method since the release of OS X.

So please, let this argument die.
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LOL - the lights on but nobody's home - nt
TheBottomLineIsAllThatMatters Updated - 8th Nov 2008
nt
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Guys, guys...
tikigawd 7th Nov 2008
why do you waste your time arguing with him?

He obviously knows it all.
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@ye. wasted words.
xuniL_z 7th Nov 2008
He must be good to have pulled you into the chain of replies. He's nothing more than an imp trying to stir up trouble purposely.

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Hey fr0thy2
sackbut 7th Nov 2008
They all fell for it. They nearly all broke their necks trying to be the first to tell you how wrong and stupid you are and just look at who the stupid ones are.

They kind of remind me of the Cheech and Chong bit about the look, smell and taste of excrement. They actually tasted it.

Congrats!
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Just because its numbering system uses
points doesn't make them minor service
packs. XP was only a single point up
from 2000 (NT 5.0 and 5.1).

OS X 10.5 Leopard was a major OS
release compared to 10.4 Tiger, just as
Vista was a major step from XP. 10.6
Snow Leopard promises massive speed
and efficiency gains from older systems
when run on Intel hardware, and
represents a major shift in the platform
just as Windows 7 moves beyond Vista.

Even XP wasn't a front-line OS for 7
years, and its service packs did nothing
to change the core system features or
functions.

Apple does do service packs, but like
Microsoft, it gives them away for free on
its update service. Currently we are on
10.5.5, the fifth service pack for 10.5.
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Doesn't matter what you call it
NonZealot 6th Nov 2008
Windows users have gotten free updates for the last 5 years and yes, some were changes to core functionality like performance improvements (you know, what you'll have to pay for with Snow Leopard), Windows Search 4, Security Center, and DirectX. Others have to be downloaded but are made available for free on the Microsoft Download site.

OS X users don't get anything for free and have had to pay for 4 updates in the same time frame that Windows users only had to pay for 1.

Quite frankly, I don't care if you call it a point release, service pack, or Hello Kitty, the end result is that Windows users end up having to pay for OS upgrades far less frequently than OS X users. Apple's $25 billion didn't just magically appear you know, it had to come from your pocket! happy
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Actually...
ShadowGIATL 6th Nov 2008
"Just because its numbering system uses
points doesn't make them minor service
packs. XP was only a single point up
from 2000 (NT 5.0 and 5.1)."

It may seem like a single point to you... but if you had programming experience you'd know how much code has to change just to increase the build number, let alone the minor number.

Version = Major.Minor.Build
Technically they could call it anything they want, but they usually stay pretty close to what is universally excepted. 2000 was a major release and XP was a minor release. 10.1.1 to 10.5.5 is still the same major release.

"Even XP wasn't a front-line OS for 7
years, and its service packs did nothing
to change the core system features or
functions."

SP2 changed alot under the hood and added new features and changed some applets and gui features. Alot of people think SP was closer to an R2, but MS choose not to charge or re-release and instead offered it as a SP. Part of this was probably to make up for the horrible failure that WinMe was, and the troubles it caused. Alot of feature sometimes get back ported into the older OS's after the new ones get released in the form of downloadable updates. This helps further the thought that MS tends to be more forgiving in charging then a lot of people think they are. If they wanted to, they could charge for every build increase. Instead they know if you give them pieces then later they will buy the whole thing.

Nothing against Apple, but I feel they would fair better if they let you upgrade minor releases for free considering they control the hardware you use. Just my opinion.
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About Apple updates.
xuniL_z Updated - 7th Nov 2008
I think if you realistically compare features in Windows SP releases, verses the "free" packs you are talking about from Apple(the minor releases) you will see it's not the same thing.


You are comparing MS's monthly updates with your "free" Apple updates, because they are 95% patches and they are massive in comparison to MS monthly patch releases. Going through the updates at Apple.com I see files that contain hundres upon hundreds of fixes in one download.


And there are very many updates that are just a huge batch of fixes like that. I'm not sure how you can compare that, to Microsoft Service Packs? Two entirely different things.

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Apple Service Packs
toml_12953 7th Nov 2008
"OS X 10.5 Leopard was a major OS
release compared to 10.4 Tiger, just as
Vista was a major step from XP."

Yes but 10.5.5 was a minor upgrade to 10.5.4
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Not sure about that
deaf_e_kate 7th Nov 2008
i've had issues with installing my XP SP2 copy on a friends laptop (original release Win XP) using the original's valid key.
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Some are baked into the install media/install package and will not work with other license numbers.


MSDN copies for example.
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And the black sheep rears his head again.
vulpine@... Updated - 7th Nov 2008
Like the rest of the Microsoft flock, NZ continues to
insist that each named version of OS X is merely a
Service Pack and not an upgrade. If that were true, then
Apple has released roughly 50 service packs in the
time Microsoft has released what? 8? And if you choose
to count the patches, that number rises
proportionately, Microsoft's monthly patches
counterbalanced by Apple's 3x to 5x that since Apple
doesn't base their patching on a calendar but on when
they get the patches completed and ready for release.

Personally, I believe that Win7 is the culmination of
Longhorn, the OS that was intended by Microsoft and
that was stripped and rushed into production as Vista. I
think, for once, Microsoft may have managed to repeat
their success with XP and maybe even gain back some
of the market share they're losing to OS X and Linux.
We'll just have to see.

But until the black sheep actually realize that their
beloved Windows itself has been driving their more-
sensible flock members to other pastures, they will
continue to blame anyone other than their shepherd
for their problems.
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no it does not...
akaralia 8th Nov 2008
...charge for services packages, only major OS upgrades!
I run both Win and Mac and I can assure you this is not the
case!

Back to the original post now....
Yes I have tried Windows 7 and I found them really appealing and far more better and stable and way faster
than Vista, which just proves that Vista was the ME of this
era.

It felt light and right even during installation, and since
this is a pre-beta release I BELIEVE IT WILL IMPROVE, but it
is the first time that I felt kind of the same comfort as i do
in Mac OS X.

And this is a serious improvement.

I hope they do not spill the milk!!!!

Although on a marketing point of view I am scared to see
Balmer in his position, I believe he is a liability.
His shares a lot of common things with Jobs when it comes
to arrogance, self esteem and god like behavior, but Jobs
does not make a monkey of himself in almost every
appearance and his vision it is much better in all terms.

But this is something for another post!
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To NonZealot:
Joel R Updated - 25th Nov 2008
?Version = Major.Minor.Build
Technically they could call it anything they want, but
they usually stay pretty close to what is universally
excepted. 2000 was a major release and XP was a minor
release. 10.1.1 to 10.5.5 is still the same major
release.?

That?s the theory, yes. But, there is an old saying:
?In theory, things should work in practice the same
way they do in theory, but in practice that?s not
always true.? happy

You see, marketing has messed things up here.
In the specific case of Mac OS X, Apple painted
themselves into a corner with the product name, which
depends on the version number.

Mac OS Classic ran from Versions 1 through 9. The
first seven major versions were called simply ?System
#? where ?#? was the Major Version Number according to
the pattern you described.

System 7 was the last to be named that way. The next
version was marketed as Mac OS 8 (a name that caused
some confusion among old Digital Equipment Corporation
minicomputer programmers/users such as myself who used
DEC PDP-8 minicomputers running DEC OS/8), followed by
Mac OS 9 (which caused confusion among slightly
younger programmers who had known the rather cool for
its time OS-9 multi-tasking multi-user
operating system originally available for Motorola
6809-based computers such as the Radio Shack Color
Computer 2 or 3, and other 8-bit 6809-based devices ?
it was the OS at the heart of the short-lived CDi
interactive CD set-top-box platform ? another version
called “OS-9/68k” was made for the 680x0
32-bit CPUs).

Mac OS X was a completely new OS, and really should
have been numbered starting with 1.0. But Jobs
couldn?t resist that the ?X? in Unix and X-windows,
both of which were technologies that Mac OS X either
used or could use, was also the Roman Numeral for ?ten
(10).? And the previous and last Mac OS Classic was
version 9. So the next should be 10, right? X = 10.
Indeed, to this very day, the preferred pronunciation
is ?Mac Oh Ess Ten,? not ?Mac Oh Ess
Ecks.?

The problem is, no matter how you look at it, this
naming / numbering scheme has nowhere to go!

If Apple sticks with the Roman Numerals scheme, what
would the next version be called? Mac OS XI? That
doesn?t look anywhere near as cool from a
marketing standpoint, nor does it resonate as well
with UniX or X11 geeks. Besides, after
awhile it would get rather unwieldy: we?d soon be at
Mac OS XVIII!

If Apple were to go with the more popular
interpretation of the ?X? simply being the
letter ?X,? then the next version would be the
considerably less-cool ?Mac OS Y? (no more resonance
with UniX, X11, etc.) followed by ?Mac OS Z? ?
and then what? ?Mac OS AA?? Like spreadsheet
columns past the 26th column in Excel?

Besides, all three of those would have built-in insult
puns that anti-Mac people such as yourself would just
love to pounce on: ?Mac OS: WHY!??, ?Mac OS:
ZZZzzz(snore)?, and, of course, ?Mac OS: Alcoholics
Anonymous: the OS that will Drive you to Drink!? I
think not.

Even the ?big cat? naming scheme is running its
course. The original 10.0 was code-named ?Cheetah?
(though not marketed as such) so they already used up
the fastest of the big cats (and the fastest of
the land animals in general). Then Puma (10.1), Jaguar
10.2), Panther (10.3), and Tiger (10.4), thus using
up the strongest of the big cats already. Now we?re on
Leopard, which is slower than a Cheetah and weaker
than a Tiger, and thus a step backwards. To ?stretch?
this naming scheme, the next version is Snow Leopard,
a mere type of leopard (too bad they didn?t use
?Black Panther? ? that one?s wasted). 10.6 will be
?Lion,? thus using up the biggest of the big cats and
the one called “The King of Beasts.”
What?s left? Ocelot? Cougar? Bobcat? Siamese? Tabby?
Calico (a genetic defect)? There?s not exactly a lot
of room for improvement here, either.

While this doesn?t help the feline situation, as far
as either Roman numerals go or letters, Apple is
pretty much stuck with the number 10 as the Major
Version Number for reasons given above, even if in
reality we should be long past that by now.

10.1 Puma pretty much was a Service Pack, and
was in fact free to 10.0 owners. Puma was the first
actually usable version of Mac OS X, as Cheetah was
basically a buggy beta released to the general public
(which, as you well know, Microsoft also does: nobody
in their right mind ever uses any Microsoft OS
for mission critical apps until SP1 at the earliest,
and XP didn?t become truly decent until SP2).

But none of the others are service packs. 10.2 Jaguar,
10.3 Panther, 10.4 Tiger, and 10.5 Leopard have all
added substantial functionality both to the underlying
OS and to the user interface and features obvious to
the end user, at least as substantial as the
changes from, say, Windows 2000 to Windows XP (though,
as noted, that is also a ?dot release? that Microsoft
charged for: NT 5.0 to 5.1). I would even put them on
a par with the change from Windows NT to Windows 2000
(4.0 to 5.0).

Microsoft also has charged for what, even by
your definition, would be a service pack even
from the marketing name, at least once: Windows 98
Second Edition was a paid upgrade to Windows 98
First Edition owners.

Frankly, though, given when the actual major changes
occurred, Windows 95B/OSR2 should really have been
marketed and sold as Windows 96 (it introduced FAT32,
a major upgrade to its hard disk handling), and
Windows 95C/OSR2.5 should?ve been Windows 97 (or maybe
Windows 96 SE ? it introduced USB support, arguably
the most significant enhancement in usability
of computer peripherals in general since the personal
computer got started!). Windows 98SE could easily have
been Windows 99 ? to this day, you can find many
software packages that list Windows 98SE as a Minimum
System Requirement: they would work under 98SE, but
not under 98 First Edition ? strange
indeed for what is supposedly the same OS! Adobe, for
instance, recommends a different, earlier maximum
version of Adobe Acrobat Reader for 95 through 98
First Edition vs. the one it recommends for
Windows 98SE and ME (ME really was just a paid
service pack to 98SE from a technical POV, and a lousy
one at that).
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Businesses and families
Asiafish 6th Nov 2008
Every adult and teenager in a Mac
household likely has their own Mac.
Every employee in a Mac business has
their own Mac.

When Snow Leopard comes out, I will
buy the family pack to install on the
four Macs used by my family of three
(three laptops and one desktop).
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Perhaps so...
vulpine@... 7th Nov 2008
... but their bulk-rate pricing for businesses (say, a 50-
pack) is still significantly below what Microsoft charges
for the same thing.
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re: Perhaps
Badgered 7th Nov 2008
Perhaps so... ... but their bulk-rate pricing for businesses (say, a 50-pack) is still significantly below what Microsoft charges for the same thing.

True, but maybe that's because MS doesn't make up the difference in HW costs. Since with Windows you're allowed to install it on whatever HW you choose, even a Mac.
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weird pillock
Richard Turpin 10th Nov 2008
One sick Ba*****d
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How so?
Letophoro 6th Nov 2008
OS X 10.5.4 (Leopard) 5-user family pack is available at Amazon for $149.99 USD.

If you're referring to buying hardware, that's a little different. Apple makes a good margin on their hardware. OTOH, MS doesn't actually manufacture the computers that run their OS. That being so, it's rather difficult to quantify how expensive Apple hardware is when compared to MS's hardware.
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Apple has a family license pack where 4 licenses (or however many it is--been awhile since I've been around Macdom) in a family are cheaper than 4 separate licensed copies of Mac OS X.

And there's no activation crap either, which is a value-add all to itself.
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Apple makes their money
tikigawd 7th Nov 2008
on the hardware, though.
That's why the OS is "cheaper."

And even then Apple puts out chargeable OS refreshes more often than MS.
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If they try that, expect pirate city
Lerianis 6th Nov 2008
I am serious on this: if they try to make it 200 dollars to upgrade each computer, they are going to force even MORE people than they already have to install pirated and cracked versions of Windows 7.
For instance, if you buy a copy of Vista Ultimate, you're able to buy 2 copies of Vista Home Premium Upgrade for $50 each.

And you don't have to spend the full price to buy the full version of Ultimate either. You can buy the upgrade for MUCH less and get the bonus licenses
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I love MS upgrades
donniebnyc666 7th Nov 2008
I've literally made dozens of service calls over the last few years fixing "upgraded" windows boxes. A big money-maker. Keep up the good work MS.
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If everyone thought that way.....
xuniL_z Updated - 7th Nov 2008
What would happen to the Yacht building business? There goes another industry.


With socialism it's hard to find a lot of people willing to dedicate their lives to their jobs w/o pay being comensurate with their education, skill and hours.


For instance the one hospital i work for, the CEO makes a lot of money. But he basically is on the job 24/7. His whole life is dedicated to the hospital, all of it's functions, all of the people associated with it, in other words he has no "free" time. And much of his salary goes back into the community as he's in a position where he donates to many community charities and events.
His level of decision making is beyond what you or I or most people would be willing to commit to, even though we are very good at pretending they aren't worth the money they do make.


I think people should be able to make whatever the market is willing to bear. Just like entertainers, athletes and other professionals.


I realize you are only saying you won't pay more than 120.00 for a 4 pack, but you know it's going to be more than that. They have 72,000 employees that all have good jobs and help feed the economy, which is a great thing. In addtion to that, the cost of the software doesn't end once it's created, the maintenance stages and continual improvement, working toward new platforms with said code etc. continues to cost the company as much or more than to create it.


It's no different than saying I have 4 or 5 people in my family, they all want iPods and I'm not going to pay more than 120 for a 4 pack of 80GB video models. Why not, the overhead on Apple electronics is more than Microsoft software. How many Billion is Steve Jobs worth now?


Free software is fine I guess, but if you live in the U.S. it's surely not helping the economy. If it can reduce corporate costs, that is offset by people buying less because they can get it for free. It weaves down through hundreds of businesses.


The people with teh "yachts" pay the lion's share of the taxes and soon it will be 2 lion's shares or more. How much more is fair?

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Nothing to do with socialism
Alan Smithie 8th Nov 2008
You miss the point dummy, it's pure capitalism - I'm not prepared to pay x for product y so I will shop elsewhere or do it myself. Ever heard of elasticity of demand. Also that leaves the amount of money that I was not willing to spend with vendor A which I can now spend with vendor B - ever heard of micro and macro economics ?

Do you think I am a charity to overpay a company to keep people in work - now that is socialism ! Market forces !
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Does 7 still ahve the RAM limits of Vista?
No_Ax_to_Grind 6th Nov 2008
Or has that been corrected?
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What RAM limits?
ShadowGIATL 6th Nov 2008
RAM is limited by bits not Vista itself. 32bit can only address 4gigs minus the bus addressing and other shared memory. The 64bit version of Vista addresses more then the average user can afford, and more then any system currently offers. I'm running Vista x64 and address 8GB of RAM.

However I'm not to happy with the way Vista controls how shared memory is used and hope that Win 7 fixes this issue. It's not a hinderance really but more of a personal irritation. I'm sure there are others that have noticed and feel the same as I do.

If you have standalone GPU with 512MB of deticated memory, there it no reason your OS should gather up 1.5GB of RAM to share. Even though it rarely uses it and it really doesn't cause any noticable problems, it just doesn't make any sense to do this.

At the least, it should be an option that can be controlled by the user.
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re: What RAM limits?
johnay 6th Nov 2008
I suspect he meant the lower limit, better known as the "memory requirement."
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What the hell?
Kaiwai 6th Nov 2008
How can you have a 'lower limit'. There are minimum
system requirements but I am guessing he is referring to
the maximum supported memory:

I can't find it on the Windows Vista page but there were
limitations on the XP Home versus XP Professional in terms
of the number of CPU's supported and installed memory.
The amount of installed memory and supported CPU's were
hardwired that way as to stop people from using the
cheaper desktop operating system as a server operating
system.
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Actually...
ShadowGIATL 6th Nov 2008
XP Home is limited by the fact it never came in x64 as far as RAM. Your correct about it limiting the processors.

If he meant the required mem, then from my tests so far Win7 probably can run with less RAM as it's already faster in its pre-beta. However that is not a true indication of RTM. Who knows what Microsoft will do to the final code.

I haven't had much issue with Vista and RAM, and have actually run Vista Ultimate on a 8 year old machine with 512MB DDR RAM and a 2.4GHz P4. It actually ran fine. Some will argue that with all the features turned on it runs slower, but Aero runs on the GPU not the CPU and uses video memory and not RAM. Areo makes very little impact on overall systems perfromance even on most intergrated chips on newer systems.

Microsoft is not in the business of building an OS for a 10 year old PC. Newer hardware is far more powerful and Vista and Win 7 are designed to take advantage of that. Hopefully Win 7 does a better job of course, but if you need an OS for an outdated PC... stick with a specialty Linux.

If he was refering to how much it can address, the x64 version can address around 16 exabytes in theory I believe. If you can afford to have a system built that has half that much memory, could you add me to your Christmas list? The only people I know of with anything remotely close to that is the NSA, but they are using a Sun Solaris SPARC server.

I think the biggest issue most people have had with how sluggish systems ran with Vista has been from the countless crapware installed by OEM's. MS has little control over this even though they still get blamed. Vista isn't the most responsive and deffinately needs some tweaking... but it's not nearly as horrible as everyone makes it out to be. OEM's should leave the OS alone unless the customer requests something. After clean installing a store bought PC for my friends and family the performance generally goes up by 25% to 50%. It is shameful what OEM's put on these machines.
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Sluggish systems
ITSecurityGuy 13th Nov 2008
are also caused by cheap systems being shipped with slow 5400RPM HDs having only 2MB of cache.
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Vista's RAM limits
vulpine@... 7th Nov 2008
By everything I have read from professional reviewers,
no version of Vista currently extant can really access
more than 4GB RAM. To refute your subsequent
statement, the Apple Mac Pro and OS X is capable of
accessing and using 32GB RAM, far, far higher than
Vista.

While I don't know the inner workings of Win7 yet, my
guess is that one aspect of the speed boost noted
would be an opening of that bottleneck; maybe, just
maybe, 7 can broaden that narrow RAM channel it
remains tied to.
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HAHAHAHAHA
tikigawd Updated - 7th Nov 2008
What have you been reading to get your Windows info? Macworld?

Go here, kid:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa366778.aspx

Get better references next time.
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Very good. Does that mean...
vulpine@... Updated - 7th Nov 2008
Vista finally got around that 64-bit memory bus?

Might I note that the Mac Pro uses a 128-bit memory
bus?

What's interesting is that the comments posted on the
page you linked to seem to find some of the figures
questionable; and they were not your average admin-
level geeks. This leads me to believe that while the
theoretical limits may be high, the practical limits
are significantly reduced.
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What?
ShadowGIATL 7th Nov 2008
"Vista finally got around that 64-bit memory bus?"

Vista x64 and 64bit memory bus have little to do with each other.

"Might I note that the Mac Pro uses a 128-bit memory
bus?"

One stick of RAM has a data path of 64bits. When you install a second chip you now have 128bit datapath. The OS can still only address 64bits at a time but the RAM can transfer the data through the bus at faster speeds.(this helps if memory is being read and writen from different places at the same time.) This is not Mac specific as most Macs today are based on the same Intel boards as other PC's.

OSX is a 64bit OS that can fall back to 32bit if the processor doesn't support x64. Windows ships two versions; x86 (32bit) and x64 (64bit). The x64 version supports more then 4GB of RAM. I have Vista x64 and I know for a fact it supports more then 4GB as it recognises and uses my 8GB of RAM.

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