Hardware 2.0

Adrian Kingsley-Hughes

Microsoft to discourage hybrid graphics systems for Windows 7

By Adrian Kingsley-Hughes | November 6, 2008, 3:28pm PST

It seems that Microsoft is discouraging system manufacturers from shipping systems making use of hybrid graphics.

Hybrid graphics is where a system has one GPU built onto the motherboard and another on a dedicated graphics card. Microsoft’s Guidelines for Graphics in Windows 7 is strongly discouraging OEMs from shipping systems making use of this technology.

A hybrid graphics system typically has two GPUs: a low-power, fairly low-performance integrated GPU and a second high-power, higher performance discrete GPU.

The integrated GPU is typically used when long battery life is desired, and the discrete GPU is used when battery life is not important or when higher performance is required. Such systems require a reboot to switch between GPUs.

Windows 7 does not offer native support for hybrid graphics systems. We strongly discourage system manufacturers from shipping such systems, which can be unstable and provide a poor user experience.

I’m betting that ATI/AMD, NVIDIA and a number of system OEMs are going to be displeased by how Microsoft has labeled this technology.

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Topics

Microsoft Windows 7, Microsoft Windows, Microsoft Corp., Graphics, Adrian Kingsley-Hughes, GPU, Hybrid Graphic

Adrian Kingsley-Hughes is an internationally published technology author who has devoted over a decade to helping users get the most from technology.

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RE: Microsoft to discourage hybrid graphics systems for Windows 7

marisano 24th Feb 2009

Um "payes" should be spelled, "pays".

If I am not mistaken, the argument is over what 'NonZealot' calls a poor solution. Namely, switching from a high power (and cost) dedicated graphics processor to a low power (and cost) integrated version in order to extend battery life. Yet at the same time s/he is citing support for better using that poor solution as a reason why his/her preferred OS is superior.

That said, the reason why the approach exists at all is likely because the dedicated GPUs are optional consumer add-ons. If so, then making use of the standard integrated chip is not a flawed approach.

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Maybe this is a hint

Yagotta B. Kidding 6th Nov 2008

Such systems require a reboot to switch between GPUs.

Well, more precisely Microsoft systems with multiple GPUs require reboots. One would, after all, not want to encourage users to leave the reservation.

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Interesting that this currently works bettern in Vista than OS X!

NonZealot 6th Nov 2008

OS X requires log out to switch graphics modes but Vista doesn't.

The Sony VAIO Z running Vista is able to switch between integrated and discreet graphics card without a reboot or even logging off. From what I've read, it is yet another benefit of Vista being able to handle (some) video driver errors by simply restarting the graphics system. Thank WDDM , yet another feature you don't get with OS X. happy

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Windows had little or nothing to do with it...

olePigeon 6th Nov 2008

Windows had little or nothing to do with it, it was all Sony.
Maybe you should read the Limitations part in that Wikipedia
article you linked to.

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Vista still better than OS X!

NonZealot 6th Nov 2008

Vista doesn't require log out, OS X does. End of story. That's an irrefutable fact.

Nice to hear that Apple will fix it a year after Microsoft got it working though. Apple is getting better. It usually takes them 5 years to catch up. Actually, scratch that. You guys still don't have copy and paste on the iPhone 7 years after Microsoft figured it out in WinCE. happy

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So basically

Richard Flude 7th Nov 2008

Mac OS X will get an OS supported permanent solution
around the time windows 7 breaks Sony's?

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Yes, you are mostly right

NonZealot 7th Nov 2008

Mac OS X will get an OS supported permanent solution
around the time windows 7 breaks Sony's?

OS X will get support for an inefficient and expensive method of conserving battery power around the time Windows 7 will push hardware companies into creating laptops with more efficient power management capabilities similar to ASUS's EPU Six Engine. Go Apple!! happy

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Vista Bleh, OSX Bleh, This was under XP+nothing to do with the OS

Lilputing 8th Nov 2008

1. Has any1 realised the Guidelines "reference"
doesn't go anywhere, blank page?

Hybrid graphics have been available for years even
under XP (im waiting for some1 to say commodore or Sinclair had something similar happy

its nothing to do
with OS support there was a driver and extra hardware
interface developed by Sony for Vaio computers. Many
people didn't know the feature was there and many
did+found it very "nifty" but never use it. Also for
"power saving" using the intel GPU only adds an extra
20mins battery life on minimal usage.

In Vista it just gets messy instead of
rebooting+reloading the HAL new Vaios just patch the
HAL as Windows is running, WTF?! Thats insane+I don't
know how it hasn't bricked any computers, but I've
never heard of a single fault except all programs
using the GPU have to reinitialize. So, my summary:

1. This has nothing to do with Microsoft, its
understandable they want their product to be
stable+stop taking the blame for HW Vendors f**k ups
but in X years if they've suceeded OEMs will be
indefinable+sales may stagnate.

2. Apple are a bunch of cloning wh***s without a
single original thought so their copying Vaio, again
*sigh*, for the sake of absolutely minimal power
improvements.

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Except Lenovo support it too.

Sleeper Service 7th Nov 2008

(NT)

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Looks like I was right after all!

NonZealot 7th Nov 2008

And I was only guessing that WDDM's ability to dynamically load and unload graphics drivers was the reason that hybrid support is better on Vista than on OS X. Turns out I was right. happy

Facts about Vista

Take the NVidia dual GPU Notebooks for example. Flipping from the integrated low power to the high power GPU is something that Vista's WDDM just does automatically without a second thought. (OS X, has to keep both drivers active, and then have the user log off and restart the GUI to change Video devices.) Vista just does it on the fly because of the WDDM.

Of course, that is only one of the many benefits of WDDM and if Microsoft is discouraging hybrid graphics systems, it doesn't mean WDDM is wasted effort. To be honest, I'd never even heard of hybrid graphics systems until the new MacBook but it sounds like a really poor solution that is much better solved by creating underclockable graphics cards or graphics cards with processors that can be turned on or off as necessary. From the comments in this article, I'm not alone in that belief.

Out of curiosity, does anyone actually have hard numbers on the efficiency of hybrid systems when compared to the current crop of mobile graphics solutions? I googled but didn't find anything concrete. It wouldn't be unprecedented for companies to make a big deal about something only to find out it isn't as good as current alternatives *cough* hybrid engines compared to diesels *cough*.

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Idiocy!

daengbo 7th Nov 2008

You're quoting another ZDNet Talkback as your supporting evidence for your position? Where did you go to school? Did you bother showing up to class at all?

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Well does that make it wrong?

OhTheHumanity 8th Nov 2008

Just because the source is not official doesn't make it wrong. If you have read non's posts then you would realize that one GPU is better than two. Plain and simple, Windows would be able to adjust itself on the fly since the video subsystem can be restarted on the fly giving the graphics card the ability to shutdown and restart in a low power mode. I am not a graphics engineer, but from the technologies we already pocess this seems like something that can be acheived in a realitively short amount of time. I am a college drop out, but going to school is not the only thing that makes you smart, its the ability to think dynamically. So maybe you just think you are smart because you showed up for class. Hope the hard work payes off for you.

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Why would you want the WDDM?

Bruizer 6th Nov 2008

Yet another driver model. BFD.

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So you don't have to...

Sleeper Service 9th Nov 2008

..use a cobbled together solution like Hybrid SLI?

Just a thought.

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Sort of...

olePigeon 6th Nov 2008

Sort of. Windows needed to be rebooted completely when
the VAIO SZ first had the switching option. Sony engineers
did a good job at writing completely new drivers and
subsystem for the video card to support custom hardware.
This circumvented Microsoft's own limitations and allowed
them to dynamically switch the OS into a power saving
mode.

I actually talked to an Apple Hardware Systems Engineer
the other day, the MacBook Pro can dynamically
switch. That capability will most likely be included in a
10.5 update, and will be featured in 10.6.

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Where Apple will claim to have invented it?

NonZealot Updated - 6th Nov 2008

That capability will most likely be included in a
10.5 update, and will be featured in 10.6.

Amazing how Apple constantly invents things years after they've been available on Windows!!! happy

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Get a life or

GoPower 7th Nov 2008

get some therapy...

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Worst. Insult. Ever.

NonZealot 7th Nov 2008

Seriously, you are slipping. sad

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Hell no!

buu700 6th Nov 2008

Please pardon my language, but... **** THAT! There is NO WAY manufacturers should let Microsoft's crap stand in the way of technological innovation. Hybrid graphics is a great idea, and the rest of us shouldn't be tethered back to old-gen ideas and tech because of Windows' lackluster hardware support and scalability.

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Why should we use hybrid graphics?

logicearth@... 6th Nov 2008

IMO the graphic card manufactures should do something like what the CPUs manufactures do, dynamic adjustment. When in a lower power (battery) setting the GPU could adjust to a lower clock speed and or voltage, etc.

That is a least expensive alternative.

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But.... that would make more sense....

ShadowGIATL 7th Nov 2008

why would the third parties actually want to get off their butt and actaully create a solution that makes sense? They have had Microsoft carrying them for years, and they are just to lazy.

This is a hardware issue that 1. should never have been an issue and 2. should never have been passed off for the OS's to fix.

Two chips Vs one variable chip? How is this economical? Why is the Microsoft's or any other OS developers problem?

I commend MS for taking a stand on this issue and hope that they continue to hold their foot down on lazy 3rd party developers. Windows 7 is starting to look better everyday.

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Seems to me....

OhTheHumanity 6th Nov 2008

That there is a better way of doing this with one GPU. Having two GPU's that are not necessarily a breakthrough in innovation sitting next to each other taking up space, which is a waste. I think a breakthrough would be having one GPU and be able to have two modes on one for energy saving and performance. Crazy idea. Get to work manufactures, you're slackin.

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You are 100% right and Asus has this working today on Vista

NonZealot Updated - 6th Nov 2008

I think a breakthrough would be having one GPU and be able to have two modes on one for energy saving and performance.

Check out Asus's EPU Six Engine

VGA graphics cards normally utilize more power than they should. A good example would be when the user is surfing on the Internet. The VGA card would be utilizing its full power unconsciously without the EPU-Six Engine. Supporting the most popular and latest graphics cards*, the EPU-Six Engine is able to automatically detect system loading, and adjust the VGA card?s voltage and frequency ? saving up to 37% VGA power during everyday computing.

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LOL!

Sleeper Service Updated - 7th Nov 2008

You do realise that current multi-GPU arrangements like SLI and Crossfire aren't native to Windows either? That's why we have drivers.

The point here is that it should be possible to regulate power to one GPU using intelligent control. Hybrid SLI arrangements are going to be one of those interesting but "so what" technologies like PhysX cards.

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Does this not play into Apple's hands?

A Grain of Salt Updated - 6th Nov 2008

It seems that Apple thinks this the way of the future,
especially for power management and battery life in
portables. If "Wintel' manufacturers are hamstrung by
Microsoft, Apple can further differentiate their machines from
the pack and give themselves a strong competitive edge in
that market. I can't, for the life of me, understand why MS
would allow this to happen. Still, as an Apple user, it bodes
well for me in the future.

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It depends.

AllKnowingAllSeeing 6th Nov 2008

If the feature adds another 15 minutes to the life of the battery, then it's a "non-feature" for most. I could see it being a great idea if it got another hour or two out of the system, but I haven't heard this happening.

And how many people actually use this feature?

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What Bodes well for you

OhTheHumanity 7th Nov 2008

If you read my post above, there seems to be a different way about saving power on a single GPU, which to me makes more sense then adding more components to the system. I am sure there is a way to engineer this to work, over using two GPU right next to each other, which is not a breakthrough technology, its just a way to untilize the current technology. The less components a system has the better, its just the GPU manufacturers may not like it because they won't make much money off of it. Bode on with your two GPU's.

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Exactly...

Sleeper Service 7th Nov 2008

...Hybrid SLI is an interim solution, not the way of the future.

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It's a stupid feature....

JoeMama_z 6th Nov 2008

granted I'd like to see this work, but honestly it seems like it serves a non-existent market.

I don't see how it's any better than just sizing the system for the user @ purchase.

99% of users won't leverage this in any case.

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Wow

WinnebagoBoy 6th Nov 2008

It seems a couple of things are happening here: Microsoft is discouraging PC use for games and high end applications (the CAD and solid modeling industry is going to have a fit) and Microsoft is leveraging manufactured systems and discouraging or not supporting custom and home built or system built systems. There has been a longstanding push from computer manufacturers like Dell and HP to eliminate system builder computers. Maybe they finally had success in getting through to Microsoft.

I tend to laugh off these idiotic attempts by Microsoft to leverage dominance although this kind of leverage goal is not clear. But what inevitibly happens is Microsoft gets is ass kicked by customers. DRM is a great example, WGA, VISTA, all represent leveraged technology designed to screw the customer. Failed then and will fail again. You have to assume Balmer is responsible for this kind of decision making.

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You shouldn't need hybrid graphics

AllKnowingAllSeeing 6th Nov 2008

in gaming or CAD systems, those types of programs will allways use the higher powered GPU on the card. The down time on a CAD system (when you're not modeling) wouldn't benefit all that much from a second on bard GPU.

And this really isn't an issue with a computer without an onboard GPU chip or second GPU card.

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Your assumption is you ONLY do CAD or Games.

Bruizer 7th Nov 2008

But on a laptop, many times it is just a laptop. Needing to
do more mundane tasks like email and Excel and Word and
Surf. In these cases, quickly turning off a few million
transistors can extend your battery life.

Useful for some. Not useful for others. In a good
implementation, this should be performed almost
automatically.

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I seriously doubt...

3D0G 7th Nov 2008

that there are many high-end CAD / solid modeling users out there using a laptop. No doubt there are a few, but not enough to worry about pissing off. Same goes for serious gamers.

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Actually it is nearly 100%

WinnebagoBoy 8th Nov 2008

Almost all CAD users who are allowed to place a floating copy on their notebooks do so. SolidWorks allows this, for example. You have your workstation and a second copy on your notebook for home use or meetings etc. When doing presentations you generally must have the CAD software on a notebook unless it is an online conference.

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You must be in IT.

Bruizer 8th Nov 2008

As it explains why you really have no clue on how your
"customers" actually use their tools.

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wrong

WinnebagoBoy 9th Nov 2008

Not an IT guy. I'm a 30+ year product designer, with more than 100 products under my belt.

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Intel is behind this

monopolist 6th Nov 2008

Losing Apple to a hybrid graphics solution was all Intel was prepared to take. Intel will bundle its crap integrated graphics with their cpus and you'll like it.

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That is a very interesting possibility

WinnebagoBoy 8th Nov 2008

It fits with Microsoft's tendency to do stupid behind the scenes deals that disenfranchise a large competitor or group of customers, but I don't think that is the reason.

I was thinking about why Microsoft would do this and came to the conclusion it may prevent delivery by Christmas of 2009 of Windows 7. I am as certain as the blood flowing in my veins that Microsoft will absolutely not allow a slip this time that pisses off 100% of the retailers and manufacturers by missing a promised Christmas delivery date.

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I'm going have to...

logicearth@... 7th Nov 2008

...agree with Microsoft after looking over Hybrid Graphics. I can only see it has a way to make more money, to up the price of the laptops with little to no benefits. Why do we need two GPUs for different power levels? Couldn't one GPU dynamically adjust its voltage/clock speed or whatever to lower power consumption? Is that not what CPUs do these days?

Maybe I just don't understand the benefits if there are any.

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It is power.

Bruizer 7th Nov 2008

And nothing more. Even in todays CPUs with power management, the faster more powerful CPUs use much more
power in "Low Power" operation than the lower performance
low power CPUs running in "High Performance" mode.

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Not entirely true...

logicearth@... Updated - 7th Nov 2008

If more powerful CPUs require more power then lower power CPUs how do you then answer the lower power consumption of Core 2 line compared to the older Pentium 4 line? The Core 2 processors with the same or close clock speed to a P4; Core 2 is more powerful in terms of performance but lower power consumption.

Also I would like to have some hard data on weather more powerful CPUs take more power when underclocked compared to there lower powered brothers.

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Completely true.

Bruizer 8th Nov 2008

If you take a low power CPU line like ARM or PPC 5554, the
performance per watt ratio makes the Core 2 look like a
clueless design. The Core 2, however, is much faster than
the PPC 5554 or the ARM.

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But also those...

logicearth@... Updated - 8th Nov 2008

...processors are of a different category then a Core 2 processor...Do they put a PPC 5554 or an ARM processor in anything but small mobile devices? You know in desktops or laptops?

I understand what you are saying, but I don't see how using two GPUs of varying degree of power would save more power over a dynamically voltage/clock rate stepping GPU.

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Favoring AMD over Intel?

Anton Philidor 7th Nov 2008

Which company is more likely to provide higher quality integrated graphics, the owner of ATI or its competitor?

Interesting that Microsoft should include the point about power use in its explanation of why a video card has been added by OEMs.

This reads like a recommendation Microsoft doesn't expect to be followed.

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Sounds like an MS attempt to slow Linux - specifically on laptops.

Letophoro 7th Nov 2008

Given that some laptops now have a Linux that can be used without actually booting off of the HDD. That built in Linux would probably use the integrated GPU and give the machine a longer battery life.

That would look bad for MS since it gives the impression, whether or not it's true, that Windows kills your laptop battery faster.

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That's interesting

ARyKaXaN 7th Nov 2008

well, it may not be linux, it may not be battery life but, that's an interesting idea.

if a pc got cpu,gpu1 and gpu2, where cpu uses 12v gpu1 5v and gpu2 3v, wouln't be sweet if dinamycally, the os can kill cpu then switching to gpu1 and switching video to gpu2? or having cpu+gpu1 procesing power?, what about having gpu1+gpu2 graphics boost while gaming?

all this somewhat resemblemes me the cell-processor mojo that went across the net some time now, where are they? ( besides gaming consoles ).

cheers!

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Why not?

rmac_z 7th Nov 2008

After all, there's a hybrid approach for GUI development: WPF, XBAP's, Virtualized WPF, Silverlight, Silverlight Offline(?) etc. Surely that needs a couple of GPUs to sort out?

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nVidia is getting trompled too

Drakaran 11th Nov 2008

not only AMD, nVidia also has a system like this: a motherboard with onboard graphics chip as well as a graphics card. So Microsoft is treading on both of them.