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Will Steve Jobs ever let iPad owners have Flash?

By | May 20, 2010, 10:55am PDT

Consumers are caught in the middle of a battle between Apple ad Adobe. But will the popularity of the iPad eventually mean that Steve Jobs will have to let iPad owners have Flash?

Some numbers for you to mull over.

According to a survey by ChangeWave, some 1 in 5 US consumers plan on buying an iPad. But, when existing iPad owners were surveyed about their pet peeves, the lack of Flash support came in at the top, grabbing some 17% of the vote.

Two things can happen:

  1. The iPad is such an overwhelming success that content providers either have to drop Flash or support two content delivery platforms to satisfy the needs to iPad users
  2. The number of iPad owners hits a critical mass where Apple can no longer defend its stance on having the iPad a Flash-free zone and will have to give in to Adobe

Which will it be?

We’ve certainly seen Apple bend in the past, but my feeling is that we’re not going to see any change of heart over Flash. Apple obviously has a dislike for Flash, and unless Adobe come out with a far superior platform, I see the iPad and iPhone remaining Flash-free.

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Topics

Steve Jobs, Apple iPad, Adrian Kingsley-Hughes

Adrian Kingsley-Hughes is an internationally published technology author who has devoted over a decade to helping users get the most from technology.

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Adrian Kingsley-Hughes

All opinions expressed on Hardware 2.0 are those of Adrian Kingsley-Hughes. Every effort is made to ensure that the information posted is accurate. If you have any comments, queries or corrections, please contact Adrian via the email link here. Any possible conflicts of interest will be posted below. [Updated: February 23, 2010] - Adrian Kingsley-Hughes has no business relationships, affiliations, investments, or other actual/potential conflicts of interest relating to the content posted so far on this blog.

Biography

Adrian Kingsley-Hughes

Adrian Kingsley-Hughes is an internationally published technology author who has devoted over a decade to helping users get the most from technology -- whether that be by learning to program, building a PC from a pile of parts, or helping them get the most from their new MP3 player or digital camera.

Adrian has authored/co-authored technical books on a variety of topics, ranging from programming to building and maintaining PCs. His most recent books include "Build the Ultimate Custom PC", "Beginning Programming" and "The PC Doctor's Fix It Yourself Guide". He has also written training manuals that have been used by a number of Fortune 500 companies.

Adrian also runs a popular blog under the name The PC Doctor, where he covers a range of computer-related topics -- from security to repairing and upgrading.

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RE: Will Steve Jobs ever let iPad owners have Flash?
justawriter 19th Sep
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No
Maarek Updated - 20th May 2010
He knocked Adobe to the floor and kept kicking Adobe. I don't think he'll change his mind now.

If there's no Flash on the iPhone/iTouch, then the same will go for the iPad. Jobs is waiting for HTML5 which will implement Flash's replacement. Jobs will receive this new update with open arms.
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RE: Will Steve Jobs ever let iPad owners have Flash?
RepublicOfDuh 20th May 2010
@Maarek Job's can wait for HTML5. By the time that all major browsers support HTML5 to the extent that developers won't be stuck in cross-browser-compatibility hell, iPad 1.0 will be history. In the meantime, consumers lose because Apple won't even let them choose whether they want it or not. Everybody was also chanting that DHTML supposed to destroy Flash, 10 years ago.
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RE: Will Steve Jobs ever let iPad owners have Flash?
blueskip 21st May 2010
@RepublicOfDuh have you actually USED HTML5? It's crap!! The controls don't work right on any browser I've tried it on. It doesn't support skipping to other portions of the video and it doesn't spool for quick replay.
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you must be ...
john_gillespie@... 21st May 2010
a leader in the RepublicOfDuh
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RE: Will Steve Jobs ever let iPad owners have Flash?
DaveN_MVP 21st May 2010
@Maarek

IMO waiting for HTML5 is absurd when there is a working solution that exists today, especially when widespread HTML5 adoption could be years away. Yes, future technologies will be better, but why do without something you could have today? I'm still waiting for the Star Trek shuttlecraft, but I'm not refusing to use alternative transportation in the meantime.

I'm not trying to defend Flash, and I agree completely with you - Jobs has gotten himself into a place where there's pretty much no way for him to change his mind now.
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RE: Will Steve Jobs ever let iPad owners have Flash?
Metronome49 24th May 2010
@DaveN_MVP People said the same ting when they ditched the floppy drive... someone's gotta take the lead.
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Apple was not bent over principal matters, so **no Flash**.
DeRSSS Updated - 20th May 2010
And the absence of Flash is super good thing; as Opera said, one could cook an egg on a device running Flash.

That is because it uses either old H.263 coder which is not hard-ware accelerated, or H.264 (since recently), but still crippled version, which is not compatible with hardware acceleration of playback.

Tests showed Flash slashes battery time of a device in half.
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RE: Will Steve Jobs ever let iPad owners have Flash?
RepublicOfDuh 20th May 2010
@denisrs Your arguments have so many holes in them, I don't know where to start. Hint: Flash does way more than just play video.

Also, like any other application platform, the applications themselves determine whether they are using a lot of CPU at any given time or not. To say that Flash slashes battery time in half is as ignorant as saying all Windows apps crash.
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Obviously video playback meant; though games do only 1/3 better
DeRSSS 20th May 2010
@RepublicOfDuh: according to Adobe's own estimations.
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RE: Will Steve Jobs ever let iPad owners have Flash?
Jkirk3279 21st May 2010
@RepublicOfDuh

"To say that Flash slashes battery time in half is as ignorant as saying all Windows apps crash."

Well, perhaps you're right. The major Windows apps I've used DO crash. It's a major pain when using MasterCAM to have it hang or crash, etc.

Oh, wait. That's not what you meant. You were implying that Flash DOESN'T suck battery life.

Well, you're wrong. It does. Tests prove it. Anybody can confirm this by using a Flash blocker like ClickToFlash and watching battery life soar.
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RE: Will Steve Jobs ever let iPad owners have Flash?
weightlosspills 22nd Aug
@RepublicOfDuh

You prepared a accurate closing stage on weight loss pills, good appointment!
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RE: Will Steve Jobs ever let iPad owners have Flash?
blueskip 21st May 2010
@denisrs Other tests showed that no flash slashes customers in half when a better product such as Android shows up.
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RE: Will Steve Jobs ever let iPad owners have Flash?
Jkirk3279 21st May 2010
@blueskip
" Other tests showed that no flash slashes customers in half when a better product such as Android shows up."

Not so far. I presume you're referring to the iPhone?

The iPhone is outselling the Android phones by a large margin worldwide. We'll only know the US numbers for sure after we get some REAL data.
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Content Providers
tk_77 Updated - 20th May 2010
I feel that content providers should take a look at where their priorities should be.

While I'm not a big fan of Flash, I have no issue with its basic use. Web based games are fine. There are also a few other areas where Flash is "ok" (I can't really think of any beyond the games [and certain video requirements] right now, but I'll still say there are uses for it).

Video is beginning to move away from flash. I understand that right now there are reasons why some video content needs to stay in flash (advertising reasons) but no doubt there will eventually be a way to handle that outside of flash.

The biggest issue I see are those sites that require you to have flash just to visit the site. Full page flash sites, sites that use flash as the only means of navigation, etc...

I feel that flash should not be used as the primary means of content for a website. Why have a html specification at all if a site is going to be entirely flash based. How is that "open", REQUIRING a third party plugin to view any of the content. This I see as a content provider issue.

Flash should be used to "augment" a site. It should be an option to make a site look "better" (if done properly). I don't think that it should be used as a means of providing the main content.

This is just my opinion. I'm sure I'll get flamed for it. But even that is just another opinion.
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RE: Will Steve Jobs ever let iPad owners have Flash?
rossdav@... 20th May 2010
@tk_77
Actually I agree with you completely! Nicely said!
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RE: Will Steve Jobs ever let iPad owners have Flash?
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RE: Will Steve Jobs ever let iPad owners have Flash?
Maarek 20th May 2010
@tk_77 I guess you never really took a look at FLASH enabled web sites where you interact with the site like a game but you are collecting information and watching the site be animated during the whole experience.
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RE: Will Steve Jobs ever let iPad owners have Flash?
tk_77 21st May 2010
@Maarek

I've seen many of those sites in the past. In MY opinion they are quite annoying. Most of the time I visit a site for a specific reason, for a specific piece of information or set of content. If I have to "play a game" in order to get that content then it gets annoying. I'm sure there are many people that enjoy this sort of thing, but I don't. I wouldn't mind if the option was available to play the site like a game to experience all their content, but also let me get at it in traditional ways. If there's no traditional way, then most likely I won't bother.
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RE: Will Steve Jobs ever let iPad owners have Flash?
royalstream Updated - 21st May 2010
@Maarek I totally agree with you.

One great example is any website from any respectable car manufacturer: You can select the car you want, rotate it 360 degrees, change the paint color, the wheels.

These websites scream FLASH all over them and their HTML equivalents are boring and ridiculous.

Real Estate websites are also great for FLASH.
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RE: Will Steve Jobs ever let iPad owners have Flash?
rengek 21st May 2010
@Maarek
He's saying (and rightly so) that there are ways to implement a site so that all of what you suggested is not done on flash. That you use flash for some of those user experiences while the rest you can implement in other ways.

I too believe that entire site based on flash is not a good idea. Flash was never meant to be a full web site development tool. Its meant for you to build components onto your site. But nobody said all components must be flash based. Sometimes you use javascript, sometimes you use jquery, sometimes there is ajax, sometimes you let it get handled on the server side and sometimes you let flash handle it.

In all cases, flash should not be abandoned just because a small group of people can't figure out why their computer sucks. Javascript did not always run well. Java did not always run well, asp did not always play nice, html itself was not always robust. Products evolve. To single any one out and tell their masses to stop supporting it, well you're free to do so but its not like flash is a dinky tool that 2 programmers is trying out in the wild so its pretty narrow minded to try and stomp it out.
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RE: Will Steve Jobs ever let iPad owners have Flash?
ryanstrassburg 21st May 2010
@Maarek
This is cool for about 5 seconds, then it gets annoying.
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RE: Will Steve Jobs ever let iPad owners have Flash?
NSL 21st May 2010
@tk_77 Whether I agree with you about the use of Flash (I do, and only use it to augment the sites I've developed and maintain.) is irrelevant.

A huge percentage of the websites important to millions of web users make significant use of Flash on the sites. That means that iPad users are frozen out from those sites by the arrogant Mr. Jobs.

Apple should be letting each iPad user make their own Flash decision, not treat their users like sheep and idiots which need Mr. Jobs to lead them by the nose. It's gotten to the point that Mr. Jobs is making Mr. Gates look good in the arrogance and sheep area.

Lack of Flash is only one of the serious deficiencies of the iPad (By the way, I'm an iPhone user and think it's a marvelous product now (passed on the early versions) and its lack of flash isn't a big deal considering its really a phone first, and Internet device second.) which are serious enough to have me pass on it.
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RE: Will Steve Jobs ever let iPad owners have Flash?
slimmac1 21st May 2010
@tk_77

I think you may have shed a light on another reason Apple doesn't like Flash: Web-based games.

Apple can't make money off of games that don't come through their iTunes paradigm.

Just a thought....
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RE: Will Steve Jobs ever let iPad owners have Flash?
kenosha77a 20th May 2010
My prior opinion that Flash will be irrelevant in two years still has not changed. Even Adobe is releasing HMTL5 development tools.
And don't forget. It's not just Apple that is calling for a Flash web policy change. Microsoft is also voicing very similar opinions regarding Flash.
In three weeks of iPad surfing, I haven't missed Flash based content at all. To be fair, there have been several instances where the inability to view Flash based content has been disappointing to annoying but those feelings pass quickly. Bottom line ... the absence of Flash based content has not been a deal breaker for me. Just a minor annoyance from time to time.
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RE: Will Steve Jobs ever let iPad owners have Flash?
tk_77 20th May 2010
@kenosha7777

Same feelings here. I've had the iPad since the wifi model came out. I've actually found myself surfing the web more now from locations other then my desktop.

Usually when I come across a site that requires flash, I just ignore it and move on. Like you there are times when it gets disappointing to annoying. I don't blame the iPad for this though, I blame the site. The content provider is requiring that I use a third party plugin in order to view their primary content. I even run ClickToFlash on the desktop and will quite often let out a "sigh" when I hit a site which is nothing more then a big box that says "Flash", requiring me to click it to load the plugin and view the site. I've actually found myself simply moving on to another site rather then clicking. I usually figure there will be some long animation and annoying navigation system if I click, so I don't bother.

As I said earlier, flash should be used to augment a site, it shouldn't be required to view the content. People talk about choice, I guess this is another area where choice comes into play. The provider can choose to allow me to view their content on any device that supports the html standard, or I can choose to simply avoid the site if I'm forced to use a plugin to view it.
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RE: Will Steve Jobs ever let iPad owners have Flash?
David Scubadiver 20th May 2010
Who cares. I mean, really. Who cares? I sure hope that it never appears on my iPad until such time as it can do so without ruining an otherwise great experience. And if that happens, great. If not, then I don't want it.
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HTML 5
MoeFugger 20th May 2010
With HTML5 around the corner I will expect that he will hold out and not accept flash.
Side note: That woman who was trying to pay cash got one for free from the store.
They broke down and gave her one.
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RE: Will Steve Jobs ever let iPad owners have Flash?
RepublicOfDuh 20th May 2010
@MoeFugger It will literally be years before HTML5 can do (consistently across all major browsers) what Flash could do 5 years ago.
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Duhh
MoeFugger 20th May 2010
That is because it is new.
Give it some time.
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RE: Will Steve Jobs ever let iPad owners have Flash?
ryanstrassburg 21st May 2010
@MoeFugger
No Apple got such bad media coverage over it they felt obligated to. Apple also changed that "no cash" policy.
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opinion of GUI designer of the original Mac OS GUI..
doctorSpoc Updated - 20th May 2010
basically thinks, that just like the original Mac OS.. Jobs made the iPad /iPhone/iPod Touch purposely incompatible with previous software (e.g. Flash), preventing porting to prevent crap creep... iPad is a paradigm shift... and he wants to leave all the crap behind.

and basically thinks that Job's doesn't give a flying *** what Adobe or anyone for that matter thinks.. this platform will start from zero and that's it... end of story. after a year or two when the platform is mature and established and can stand on it's own then they might open it up.. but it's a philosophical thing, not a money think

http://www.asktog.com/columns/082iPad&Mac.html
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Whee Ha!
zkiwi 20th May 2010
A useful insight, at last.
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RE: Will Steve Jobs ever let iPad owners have Flash?
MightyMikeLech 20th May 2010
@doctorSpoc

No, I don't really think so.... Given the fact that RIM has never supported Flash on any BlackBerry (and looks like they never will) because of the Moon-Crater-Sized security holes in Flash that keep cropping up quicker than Adobe's Code Warriors can patch up, Apple seems to be taking the same stance with their products so they can try to appeal to Corporate IT buyers as well as those mindless status symbol seekers that will camp out in front of the Apple Store for i-Anything for hours and days before its release just for the superficial bragging rights they got the first one before anyone else. Thank G*d for my Frumpy, Dowdy ThinkPad and my BlackBerry Curve!

In short, I really think it's a Security thing with them-I think when Adobe Makes much more secure from hackers, then Apple and others will embrace Flash more....
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i think security is an important part of it for sure..
doctorSpoc 20th May 2010
@MightyMikeLech ... it's No. 3 in Jobs' open letter on Flash..

but read "Sixth, the most important reason." it's basically what Tog wrote.. Jobs' wants people to write apps purpose built apps for THIS platform.. these apps will be better apps and take advantage of all the features, API etc of the platform and not devs and users will not be dependent on the whim of Adobe to support some new API or feature...

look at the situation right now.. it's two years later and Adobe is only now releasing a Beta of Flash 10.1.. with that kind of turn around and record that Adobe has shown and throw in the security holes that you can drive a mac truck through.. who in their right mind would allow Flash onto their platform.. who want's their platform to take the lowest common denominator? no.. you get as many devs as possible writing apps written specifically for your platform adhering to platform standards etc.. get that going and established.. then and only then do you let in thing like flash.. it will be obvious at that point that the Apps purposely and specifically written for the platform will be superior and have wildly better performance than the craptacular flash apps.. bottom line is that Flash is just not necessary and is very flawed in so many ways and if you let it get a foothold it will dumb down your platform and make your platform look bad..
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It will depend of customers.
timiteh 20th May 2010
If they think that whatever Apple does, they can't prevent themselves from buying Apple products, then Jobs will never have a reason to allow flash on the iPad. Even worse, Apple products could become more and more restrictive and with less and less choice.
If on the other hand customers decide to show to jobs that he can't do whatever he want without caring about the customers and their needs, by boycotting Apple products while clearly and vocally explaining why they do it, then perhaps flash will someday be enabled on iPad. Moreover Apple would become more cautious about how restrictive their future products will be.
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Flash simply isn't important to the iPad
Ken_z 20th May 2010
No matter how important it "may" be to developers the iPad is simply a new platform that can easily do without it.

If the iPad is only half as successful as some think it will be then Flash will face a loosing battle with HTML5.

The reason? Companies will move where the customers are moving. Look at how companies, especially banks, discovered the iPhone/touch platform.
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RE: Will Steve Jobs ever let iPad owners have Flash?
IssacS 20th May 2010
Here is the problem that Apple now faces, it insistance on H.264 has the possibility of killing the device.

If WebM/VP8 gains quickly, which is sounds like it might (Youtube playback, hardware supports, and general browser consensus [4 out of five] says alot).... then Apple will either have to concede to the WebM project, in some form. Adobe with support of VP8 fallback is likely to do that, but it would mean that Steve would be force to do something that is rare for him and the company that follows him. Swallow his pride.
If Steve doesn't run back to Adobe, then it's either to support it themselves (via Webkit) which I doubt since most implimentations of WebM are rather local (Chromium, WebkitGTK, WebkitQT, etc.) currently or run to someone (like Mircosoft's Silverlight or Novell's Moonlight) else and risk looking like a hypocrite. Either way, Apple can't over look this development... since the network effect of WebM would more or less doom the iPad/iPod Touch if they try to run against the current.

That, of course, means that WebM is something of a success. Which has yet to be set, given the last two days.
That said, it makes Apple's silence on the matter... currious.
From this point on, the move is Apple's to make.
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WebMaster is more likely than Flash
ShockMe 20th May 2010
I suspect if WebM doesn't encounter patent issues, there ia an even chance of Apple supporting it as part of HTML 5. But I doubt they will drop H 264.
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Wait, what?
rlorenz 20th May 2010
I really don't think it is or will be as big of a hit as you chalk it up to be. My TA pulled his out today in class to laughter...

Then again, I suppose my class is a bit smarter than the average group of people.
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No Flash Ads - Drat
rvassar 20th May 2010
Oh, do I miss the resource-hungry Flash ads on my iPad.

Woe is me...
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Wrong Question
klassendg 20th May 2010
The right question is: "Will Adobe ever deliver Flash to a mobile platform?" They've had 3 years since Jobs challenged them to do it. So far they've got a beta 10.1 running on a beta Android 2.2. It's got bugs, makes the phone heat up, runs down the battery, only works with the fastest Android hardware, slow frame rates, only playing selected sites.
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RE: Will Steve Jobs ever let iPad owners have Flash?
pastubbs 20th May 2010
After learning the iPad would not allow flash, I installed a flash blocker on my windows box to see what the effect would be - improved page load times usually, and a lack of over active adware, an improved experience!
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Oh great Jobs, the humble masses ask your gracious permission....
gluonspring 20th May 2010
The title says it all. Will Steve Jobs *let* iPad owners install software they (apparently) want to install.

Waiting for Jobs to give you permission to install some kind of software on your own computer doesn't seem bother the throngs lining up to buy these giant iPod Touches, but it sure does offend me.
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you realize that said software doesn't actually exist right??
doctorSpoc 25th May 2010
@gluonspring - the world has been waiting for over 2 years now for Adobe to release mobile flash... just last week Adobe release a bug laden, security flawed beta... that only runs on a few sites.. frame rate basically makes movies look like a slide show.. should you not wait to see if, when Adobe actually release flash for mobile before saying that you even want it on your device??
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RE: Will Steve Jobs ever let iPad owners have Flash?
chilove 20th May 2010
Once again for all the Apple bashers and flash fighters out there:

THERE IS NOT A WORKING VERSION OF FLASH FOR IPHONE OS. OR ANDROID. OR SYMBIAN. OR PALM. THERE IS NO MOBILE FLASH!!!

So quit whining about it. Until Adobe gets off their lazy arse and actually SHIPS a WORKING version of flash for mobile it is a moot point.
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two questions there
s_souche 20th May 2010
The absence of flash from the web experience is one matter

the absence of flash runtme for stand alone application is another.

For the first, the possibility to extend the browser thanks to plug ins is simply out of the equation for the iphone OS. And i don't personally see apple backing there. but that is probably the most missed flash experience by final users

the contractual absence of flash based tand alone app is another matter, very difficult to justify technically by apple, as, by iphone os design, tehre can be no impact on the iphone stability or user experience there . but people don't care about stand alone flash apps. that is a developper perspective, not a final user's one...
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RE: Will Steve Jobs ever let iPad owners have Flash?
nick47 21st May 2010
I don't see what all the fuss is about to be honest, I have a flash blocker installed on my macbook and it's great, it blocks all the dumb annoying adverts which are all over the web.
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RE: Will Steve Jobs ever let iPad owners have Flash?
LeeC 21st May 2010
Wow, so many people think the internet is for nothing but watching videos.
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RE: Will Steve Jobs ever let iPad owners have Flash?
geoff@... 21st May 2010
Frankly I do not miss Flash on my iPad one bit. Whenever I hit a site that is Flash only in browsing on my PC I cringe as it takes longer to load, is not responsive and I usually just bail. This may be the way the developers implemented Flash but it makes me want a good clean HTML site with maybe some JavaScript behind it for the wiz bang features. With that said sites that use Flash as a supporting portion such as Flash movies are just fine. Flash has it's place but that might not be on mobile devices now or in the future unless it changes from the ground up.
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RE: Will Steve Jobs ever let iPad owners have Flash?
justawriter 19th Sep
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