Why young people pirate (Pssst: It's not just about money)

By | January 10, 2011, 7:50am PST

Summary: Why do the younger generation and students pirate music, software and television and movies? Failing main street shops? Or plain old exploitation of weak systems? It’s not all about the money.

Piracy is rife among the Generation Y. With lawsuits threatening students to a disproportionate level and with media and record industries lobbying governments for a change in the law, there is no let up in sight for the piracy problem.

Could it be simply down to the lack of available regional content between the US and Europe? Could it even be down to retailers failing to grasp the online market where others succeed? Do we get a kick out of it and take advantage of insecure systems? Or really, is it just about the money?

After studying this subject for some time, and ethnographically examining the practices of students and young people alike, there are three areas to take into consideration:

  • Money is tight. Unless you get driven to college from your dorm room in a cedar chair, you will be like the rest of us and struggle with money. With our innate mentality for the value of culture, we see ‘entertainment as free’.
  • The Internet is the be all and end all of every bit of content there is. If you want it, it will be out there. If you want to watch, listen to or play with something for your computer, you can bet your bottom dollar that someone else out there does too.
  • More often than not, it’s simple, or there’s a thrill in the chase. It boils down to simplicity of the search and the ease of access to downloadable content. If a system has been exploited, the temptation to take advantage, carte blanche is perceived.

It would be a lie to say that money was not a significant factor for younger people and students alike. But to collate and understand why young people pirate boils down to one easy summarising statement.

The legal options are not as readily available, simple enough nor consistent enough to access. It really is as simple as that.

But there is method to this perceived madness »

Topics

Zack Whittaker, a criminologist who studied at the University of Kent, Canterbury, is a journalist, writer and broadcaster.

Disclosure

Zack Whittaker

I worked briefly with Microsoft UK in 2006 but no longer have any connection with the company. Regardless, I remain impartial and unbiased in my views.

I don't hold any stock or shares, investments or industrial secrets in any company, but have signed confidentiality agreements with a number of UK and U.S. organisations, whose names I am not at liberty to disclose.

I was involved with Kent Union, the University of Kent's student union, undertaking voluntary, non-salaried, elected positions between early 2009 and mid-2010.

No other company, body, government department, non-governmental organisation or third sector organisation employs me or pays me a salary in any capacity whatsoever.

As a freelance journalist, whenever expenses are given and taken by a company that is not CBS Interactive, these will be disclosed in each relevant post to ensure transparency.

I currently work with a UK law enforcement unit, but this is an entirely separate position which bears no connection to other work.

(Updated: 23rd October 2011)

Biography

Zack Whittaker

Zack Whittaker, criminologist who studied at the University of Kent, UK, is a journalist, writer and broadcaster.

After studying criminology at university, though still in his early-20's, he has already had a series unconventional work and voluntary positions. He has worked with researchers studying neurological illnesses like Tourette's syndrome (which he suffers from), has given lectures on the nature of disabilities in the public community, and occasionally ends up speaking on television and radio discussing the events of the day.

He first had academic work published at the age of 22, then still an undergraduate, and has been cited by a wide range of publications: from the Huffington Post, Business Insider, AllThingsDigital, The Atlantic Wire and CBS News.

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RE: Why young people pirate (Pssst: It's not just about money)
Nate_K 3rd Dec
The only thing I have to say is I gained all my IT skill from the things that I have done in the past and not from a school. My hands on qualifications range from MCSA/CCNA skills and some entry level GIAC needed for my consultancy job, partnered with someone on a first name basis with Steven Northcut from SANS.
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Sometimes things just aren't available through retail channels (at least not with a sane price). Take "That's What You Get Babe", one of Kevin Ayers' subpar 80s albums. On Amazon.com, the cheapest copy is 75USD...used! And that's not really an isolated example. Lot's of obscure music is really only available at such outrageous prices...or for illegal download.
@christopherborne@...
When young I could never have afforded all the games I had (only few I bought), nor the tools. Because of that it was not really a loss for anyone that I copied DooM 2 (RAR package splitted on fourteen (14) 1.44MB disks) - quite the opposite as later (in the late 90's) I bought a box with the whole series (obviously not counting DooM 3, which I don't count as real sequel anyway).
And as far as the tools go, have my father not got copies of Turbo Pascal 4, then 5 and 6 and Turbo C/C++ (16-bit for DOS) I don't think I had never become a programmer - though I later got DJGPP 32-bit C/C++ compiler for DOS, but at that point I don't think I would have felt enthuasiastic (or even understood what it was) to download it - pirated development tools are what I learned little more than beginnings of the art of programming in early teenage and might even have made me later buy stuff like Visual C/C++, etc. (but I moved to Linux, use C/C++ sometimes but Perl for cross-platform development).

Anyway, I now pay for commercial games - a friend who did not pirate games when he was a kid too poor to buy ones does now not understand computer gaming. And I pay for tools - except if a free (as in beer) is available, though more important than free as in beer is free as in speech - even if I have to pay for it (which I have done, ie. with Cedega in the past).

Finally, this is not to say that piracy as kid is a way to grow into paying adult - IMHO anyone can pirate the stuff they want (for personal use anyway), I don't view it as such bad thing and most certainly do not consider it same as theft (feels dumb to even write it).
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Your sense of entitlement is sickening.
RationalGuy 11th Jan 2011
@robsku

Because of that it was not really a loss for anyone that I copied DooM 2.

It was a loss for id Software, because they developed the game, and you enjoyed the fruits of their labor without paying them.

What makes you think you have the right to play a game or listen to a song simply because it exists and you want to? Who the f--k do you think you are?
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@RationalGuy
How many Ferraris did these ID guys buy with all this pirating going on? I remember the Yellow Testorossa parked at CDWarehouse for the Fragfest Quake Beta showcase and the daily blog with frequent F40 runnings at the track. Would you make someone bring their copy of Madden over to your house to play since you don't want them to use yours? Put in earplugs as you drive them to their AA meeting because they didn't pay for the CD you are listening to? What about try before you buy? You ever bought anything that you wished you'd have not wasted your money on? ...
It's called subsidizing. The reason games were so expensive back then and today for that matter was that they wanted to make up for the loss to piracy. If people didn't pirate, then the people that buy it would be paying too much. And you would still be B---chin and complaining about something else.
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@dbisse

... you might earn having a Ferrari, too. Until then, quit whining and do something constructive.
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So what?
RationalGuy 11th Jan 2011
@christopherborne@...

If the price is too high for you, don't listen to it. You have no right to listen to it.

If it's such a subpar album, why do you care how much it costs? Why do you want to listen to it at all?
@RationalGuy , you wrote:"@robsku

Because of that it was not really a loss for anyone that I copied DooM 2.

It was a loss for id Software, because they developed the game, and you enjoyed the fruits of their labor without paying them."

His point is that Id lost no money due to his piracy 'cause he didn't have the money to buy the game. You, of course, didn't bother to think about that--too busy being Mister Self-Righteous.

Tell us: do you ever go through yellow lights, or drive over the speed limit? Hmmmmm? Don't throw stones.
@dennyw

His point is that Id lost no money due to his piracy 'cause he didn't have the money to buy the game. You, of course, didn't bother to think about that--too busy being Mister Self-Righteous.

No, they lost the money that they were entitled to get in return for him playing the game. You didn't think about that, because you believe everyone has an inherent right to consume everything that exists simply because they want to. Realizing how f--ked up that is is not being self-righteous. It's respecting people who are actually creative.

Tell us: do you ever go through yellow lights, or drive over the speed limit? Hmmmmm? Don't throw stones.

I go through yellow lights when it's not safe to stop. That's the law. I also stop at yellow lights, which most people don't. Most people treat yellow lights as, "hit the gas and blow through it." I don't do that.

Lots of people drive up the shoulder of the road or try to squeeze in at the head of a traffic jam, rather than wait in line like everyone else. These people are obsessed with finding little ways to game the system or steal little advantages from people. They just serve to make the world a crappy place to live. That's not my style.

I also don't drive over the speed limit, unless I'm passing someone or another situation where going a little faster is actually safer than going slower. I usually don't drive under the speed limit either. That's what cruise control is for -- to stay at a constant speed.
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@RationalGuy - Oh brother! Are you a self-righteous pomp ass. You must be a Republican Baptist or a Catholic!
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@christopherborne@... "What would you rather watch:"
"a British period drama with jaunty little bonnets,
or an American high octane drama with Kiefer Sutherland ripping the face off a terrorist?"
Actually, I am all for British period drama rather than almost anything on US cable channels. What I don't understand is why, with 100+ channels, there isn't one channel for 'the rest of us.' A&E went the way of Dog, the Bounty Hunter and PBS parses out shows like Oliver Twist's poorhouse. Even BBCA dropped almost all dramas in favor of Gordon Ramsey's hissy fits.
The difference now is that Internet informs me about what's on offer in the UK, on offer in a On-Demand-type scheme--but limited to UK IP addresses. I'd gladly hand over a license fee to access BBC & ITV programming--Comcast gets way more $$$ out of me.
I am not advocating illegal access, I am noting that the Internet shines a light on the feast and thus shines a light on a "target."
I predict pirating will continue until its easier/cheaper to access content legally.
PS I like Amazon better than iTunes.
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Yeah, I agree...
Peter Perry Updated - 12th Jan 2011
@christopherborne@... Having never seen Tron I wanted to see the original but the stupid Asses that make up Disney didn't think about capitalizing on sales or rentals... Nope, they put it in moratorium when the new movie was about to release... So, I could either pay $100 for a movie I would probably watch once (the original is not worth $100 in my opinion) or I could find the movie through a torrent, watch it and delete it...

Can you guess which option I went with?
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Or you could have not watched it ...
RationalGuy 12th Jan 2011
@Peter Perry

... but you wanted to see it, and what you want is the most important thing in the world.
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@RationalGuy - And what you want means nothing to anyone but you. Get over it loser!
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@Irrational Guy yes I wanted to see it before seeing the sequel, you cannot possibly argue for Disney in this case because it simply does not make sense to pull this movie when you announce a sequel! Nobody does that asshat and yet Disney thought it was a good idea!

Think about this, what makes more sense... True grit was 2 weeks from release but the studios worked with rental houses to rent the original to people...

Disney announces the sequel to Tron and immediately puts a moratorium on the original...

Which one do you think worked out better. Seriously, you release a sequel and refuse to let people who havent seen the origional watch it.
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Why young people kill
AllKnowingAllSeeing 10th Jan 2011
Probally for all the same reasons you mentioned.
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Contributr
@AllKnowingAllSeeing It is not necessarily mutually exclusive to young people - old people alike, too. However, this column obviously focuses on the views of the Generation Y.
@zwhittaker -

Isn't it more like "generation i"? That *is*, after all is said and done, the general attitude of my nieces...
@AllKnowingAllSeeing, WTF? Yeah because there is obviously no difference in the minds of young people between killing someone and stealing something they probably wouldn't buy if they couldn't steal it.
95% of the music that i listen to is not available in Romania. The only way for me to get some music is by using bittorrent. And if a new album finds its way in a retail store, it's usually after a few months from its release. So i basically download music for free but i buy tickets for concerts if bands play somewhere near.
There is a certain distaste for the RIAA among YGens and a bit of civil disobedience with copyright and the laws that protect content. A reasonable person understands protected content for the creator of said content but many disagree with life plus 70 years.
@Bodazapha That is why we go to war with them... Remember Operation Payback before it was highjacked by some white-knight wikileaks lovers? The RIAA/MPAA must die. If your business model does not work, its because its only worth sh*t. The sooner we run them to bankruptcy, the better.
@Tommy S.
Don't lump music and movies together. Movies cost millions to make, even without inflated superstars. Music can be made in a cheap studio with a few tools. The MPAA members (studios) at least respresents people who contribute to making the content, while the RIAA guys (labels) are just parasites on other people's work.
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What a load of horses--t!
RationalGuy Updated - 11th Jan 2011
@Bodazapha

Do these people limit themselves to pirating music that falls outside of the boundary of copyright that they find fair? For instance, do they limit themselves to downloading music that is ten years old or twenty-five year old or whatever they think is a fair copyright?

Hell no! They download whatever they want, because they feel entitled to listen to whatever they want. All this crap about "civil disobedience" just makes them feel better when they throw their "But Daddy, I want an Oompa Loompa now" temper tantrum.
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"What would you rather watch:"
Arnout Groen 10th Jan 2011
"a British period drama with jaunty little bonnets,
or an American high octane drama with Kiefer Sutherland ripping the face off a terrorist?"
wasn't that Face/Off with John Travolta and Nicolas Cage?

Part of the issue is that record companies still live in the 1980's and their bosses never fully understood the potential of the internet, while the youngsters grow up with laptop/netbook and enough technical skills to find their way on the internet. Another issue is, that even with a decent social education, the border between illegally obtaining or buying content on the internet is vague, partially because of the lack of social control by the neighborhood. And it may take a while, but in the end (somewhere in the 22nd century or so..) we'll find a way to make both parties happy
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@Arnout Groen
wasn't that Face/Off with John Travolta and Nicolas Cage?
I highly suspect Zack was being figurative, not literal.

chuckle
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True. He basicly
John Zern Updated - 10th Jan 2011
shot them off, blew them off, kicked them off, punched them off, pretty much everyway you could-them-off, except for actually ripping them off in "24". happy
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It's not vague ...
RationalGuy 11th Jan 2011
@Arnout Groen

the border between illegally obtaining or buying content on the internet is vague

No it isn't. If you want to watch a TV show, maybe it's available on the network's website, or Hulu. Maybe you can buy it from iTunes or Amazon. Maybe you can buy the DVD from Amazon.com or rent it from Netflix.

If you're downloading torrents or buying from a company based in one of the former Soviet Republics, you're not dealing with a legitimate channel.

It's actually really simple and crystal clear how to obtain content legally.
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@RationalGuy what I dislike is that movies and tv shows drop off the market and are no longer purchaseable via any normal channels. I'd prefer to have digital versions stored on my server, ready to watch whenever I want, even if they are no longer "on market". The only way to do this is rip the DVDs or Blurays or find them on bittorrents. I still avoid bittorrents, but I can understand those that use them.
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@RationalGuy You're not too bright. I REGULARLY try to use "genius" on iTunes to generate playlists and get they reply this title is not available from iTunes. I wanted to watch Dexter recently through a paid subscription to Netflix and I'm still waiting WEEKS later. Looks right now as if by they time I actually get to watch something I'M PAYING TO WATCH, I'll have lost interest.

You spew garbage that you do not understand. I have NO sympathy for record companies or movie companies. They are doing this to themselves rapidly.

Additionally, people have a price they will pay and when they exceed that price, sorry to break your heart but most will just steal it if it's easy. That's the difference between earning a living and criminally overcharging. (I won't even go into the number of times BOTH of those entities have been caught price fixing - lawsuit in progress now actually. http://ct.zdnet.com/clicks?t=683563033-bac52a588e7c42bc0994ea9700019be2-bf&brand=ZDNET&s=5)

By all means comment when you get a clue. But for now you most certainly don't have one.
@RationalGuy
Let's say I'm like Blueskip, and I want to watch Dexter. I have Netflix, so I can get the content, but I don't want to wait weeks. I download (pirate) the episode, watch it, and delete. Illegal? Certainly. Immoral? I don't think so. I watched content I had legal and paid access to.

I'm not pure. I lived in Asia for ten years, and getting US content was virtually impossible legally. Even legal-looking DVDs sold at major stores can end up being pirated. I bought or rented when I could, but I torrented a lot of TV at the time. Now that I'm back in the US, I'm a Hulu Plus subscriber.

I'm against Piracy. If I don't want to pay for music, I get something from Jamendo. (Yeah, there's a lot of crap, but there's some good needles in that haystack). Still, I understand that for some people, getting legal content is so much more difficult than getting pirated content that it's not reasonable to expect them to go for the real stuff. The industries don't make it easier on people outside the US with region bans, regional pricing, and the like.

There's also this famous piece: http://i.imgur.com/GxzeV.jpg -- the MPAA isn't making any friends with that.
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read again...
Arnout Groen 12th Jan 2011
@RationalGuy

"Another issue is, that even with a decent social education, the border between illegally obtaining or buying content on the internet is vague, partially because of the lack of social control by the neighborhood."

I wrote about social behaviour here and the lack of social control, which you don't seem to understand, given your response...
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Who cares what you want and when you want it? You have no right to watch Dexter. If you have to wait months to watch it legally, then wait, or buy it on iTunes, or get a subscription to Showtime and watch it on Showtime On Demand, or don't watch it.

If the movie is not available, then maybe you don't have to own it. Maybe you have no right to watch it whenever you want. Maybe life isn't all about satisfying all of your little whims.

It is absolutely reasonable to expect people to have this basic modicum of self-control. Banks need vaults because people are so such pieces of s--t that they couldn't help themselves from walking in and taking money that isn't theirs otherwise. Your argument is basically, "It's so easy to walk in and take, what do you expect people to do?"

I expect people to act like human beings instead of animals. I am often disappointed. You wallow with pride in your worst impulses.
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Dexter was my case too
Stephen Howard-Sarin 14th Jan 2011
@blueskip I wanted to watch Dexter, but I didn't want to subscribe to Showtime ($15/month, wasn't sure I'd be able to watch the first season on-demand), and I didn't want to buy the DVDs (no interest in assembling a movie library). I checked iTunes and found there were few Dexter's and the cost was high.

In the end I signed up for NetFlix at $8/mo with unlimited streaming, and both Season 1 and 2 available on-demand. I can get more seasons on postal DVD, if two aren't enough. So, really now, Dexter ain't hard to get, and NetFlix is a fantastic deal at $8/mo. If you can buy a NetFlix subscription (not available in all countries), then pirating the same content is just absurd.
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British period drama, without question
HollywoodDog 11th Jan 2011
@Arnout Groen ... I'd rather get a root canal than sit through an episode of 24.

BBC high-culture programming is awesome, and floating around out there for download.

Don't watch crud like 24. After the US Government and gun massacres, it's the worst this cursed nation has to offer.
@HollywoodDog
I know; Pillers of the Earth or The Tudors are better than 24.

But I dissagree with you that 24 is the worst they have to offer; that would be Friends... wink
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Contributr
@Arnout Groen I agree. If car alarms weren't invented, or they weren't future proofed for crime, a whole load more cars would be nicked. It's called 'situational crime prevention' - just as CCTV prevents crimes from happening as the situation cannot arise, due to the surveillance being present.
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Viewing recommendation
johnfenjackson@... 10th Jan 2011
Another boring ZDNET article repeating what we already know, failing to recognise the major forces involved, abandoning logic ... and offering no solutions. Pathetic.

"The legal options are not as readily available, simple enough nor consistent enough to access. It really is as simple as that."
There is a simple root cause which you did not recognise: the fundamental underlying both the massive spread of piracy and the restricted flow of digital material to consumers is greed. Personal greed and corporate greed.

The great irony is that there is no shortage of content; no shortage of technology to distribute the same, no shortage of customers and no shortage of money! Yet everyone involved in the chain from artist to listener/viewer offers up rationalisations why they are the OK and everybody else is screwing them.

Can we not have a moritorium, admit we are all greedy bar stewards ... and work out a business-like solution for our mutual benefit?

"Whether iTunes helped kill HMV again remains to be proven."
Open your eyes man! Do you want to walk half a mile to your newsagent to buy The Times ... then another half a mile to the HMV store to buy a CD for the one track you would like to hear ... or what? I have this argument with Foremski too. Newspapers and CD's are dead. Call yourself Generation Y. Jeez.

"There are no right or wrong answers to solve the problem."
I've proposed one possibility several times ... and can't be bothered to write it out again or even find the link for you. In any event it needs to be solved since this is a critical issue for society above and beyond mere entertainment ... so call yourself Generation Y and put your thinking cap on ... pretend you live in Engalnd and the Government is proposing to take your beer, sorry grant, money away.

"Discussing them is frankly a moot point."
Lazy bar steward.

"I?m not even trying nor going to suggest how to solve the problem, as this post is to explain why,"
Lazy BS ... we heard the why from Generation A. Keep up with the programme please.
Do you want to add something to an important issue for your generation or not?
Get off your ****!

"Either criminalise and do it well, or decriminalise and lose a legitimate industry."
This is called a false dilemma in logic circles. There are other options. Your suitability for the diplomatic corps is in doubt. What ... we launch our nukes ... or let them fire first? The industry must be transformed. Then you can write appropriate laws.

"Like drugs or prostitution,..."
Two completely different propositions. The former an unnatural pursuit likely to lead to harm and death, the latter (sex at least) an entirely natural force whose negative consequences can be controlled. But those are discussions for another forum.

"What would you rather watch: a British period drama with jaunty little bonnets, or an American high octane drama with Kiefer Sutherland ripping the face off a terrorist?"
Kiefer ripping off a jaunty little British bonnet wink

Definitely a Generation Y post: immature.
And no more of this agist crap Zack - people over 30 have heard of bittorrent too, I am led to believe wink
@johnfenjackson

I'll have to agree with you. I came expecting a meaty discussion with new ideas on pirating and left with a bowl of cheerios, feeling malnourished.

Very poorly constructed article.
@wendellgee@... But good for your mental cholesterol....

happy
@wendellgee@... This is what happens when we let the little ones have access to ZDNet's CMS system.
@HCMarks@...

You call this a CMS? They can't even get forum posting right.
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Contributr
@HCMarks Who says I get access to the forum posts? I don't.
Zack - well done and pointed.

I like the comment my daughter made a couple months back when I found her bt-ing anime episodes.. "Why not? You usually can't find these over here."
Because they can.
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Contributr
@james347 Exactly. Point 3.
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@zwhittaker

I think it's more basic. They don't see it as theft or more accurately, they don't want to see it as theft.

When asked if they would walk into a retail store and shoplift a CD, most would say no, that's stealing. I have a suspicion that in some cases, it's the fear of being caught, not the fact that it is morally wrong. Not having too look someone in the eye while you are taking their belongings makes this all too easy to rationalize away.

Scarcity of legal distribution is a rationalization, lack of money is rationalization, ease of acquiring is a rationalization.

Most societies recognize that if an artist creates music, visual art, written words, etc. they have a legal interest in it and it cannot taken without some form of compensation. Just because some artists choose to give it away, doesn't mean they all do.

At the end of the day, if someone realizes it's theft and still does it, it's a lack of respect for the rights of others. It's simple morality.

The fact that not all of Gen Y freely engage in this activity, proves that some make that distinction.
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@psquared007

When asked if they would walk into a retail store and shoplift a CD, most would say no, that's stealing.

Thou shalt not steal is a powerful proscription. Thou shalt not infringe a copyright? Not so much.

That's why the full-court press by the industry to make the argument that copyright infringement is stealing, even if they are not the same in courts of law.

Creating the equivalence between the repugnant act of stealing and the relatively indifferent act of "depriving a copyright owner of a sale" is needed to extract ever more draconian copyright laws from legislatures.

Maybe Boomers and Gen Xers have something to learn from Gen Yers.




happy
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A big part of it is payback.
terry flores 10th Jan 2011
After being relentlessly screwed by the music companies and movie theaters, people are sick and tired of paying through the nose. After the media cartels bribed Congress (twice) into passing the ridiculous "lifetime-plus" copyright extensions, most of us lost any remaining sympathy for the big conglomerates. The vast majority of commercial works are not actually owned by the artists, but by companies. The artist generally receives no additional compensation no matter what their "lifetime" might be.

There was a press conference where somebody asked Sen. Fritz Hollings (D-Disney) why he voted for the extensions, he said it would benefit many American companies. When the reporter pointed out that most of the top media companies (Sony, BMG, NewsCorp, Vivendi-Universal, EMI) were all foreign companies, his only reply was "Well, Hollywood is American, isn't it?" and quickly changing the subject ...
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@terry flores

Well said, WELL SAID Indeed!

To add to this: The media mafia will not change until they are financially forced to and so long as they own enough of our governement (yes we have government officials who are bought and paid for and we all know it even if we don;t all fess up to it) it will continue to be a fight in which the innocent bystanders are the ones that suffer the most.
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@terry flores
so as to rationalize an act of theft. Many use "payback" as a rationale to rob or kill their fellow human beings as they claim they are being "screwed" by those better off then they are.

After being relentlessly screwed by the music companies and movie theaters

In what way? they have never come to my door and stolen from me, they have never charged me to watch a purchased DVD more then once, they have never done me any physical harm. How exactly, did they "screw me".

Do they overcharge for music? Who are you to determine what price I, or anyone else, should charge?

If someone feels that Apple is "screwing" us because of the price they charge for their products, then the rational thing to do would be to steal it.

You may not like the fact that the music you enjoy cost what it does, yet if the artist does not wish us to have it without receiving compensation, then we must respect their wishes, as you want your terms respected when you sell something yourself.

You have the option to start your own recording studio, as many have done, and run it as you see fit.
The only thing I have to say is I gained all my IT skill from the things that I have done in the past and not from a school. My hands on qualifications range from MCSA/CCNA skills and some entry level GIAC needed for my consultancy job, partnered with someone on a first name basis with Steven Northcut from SANS.

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