ie8 fix

Are Microsoft's patent lawyers really this dumb?

By | July 6, 2007, 6:47am PDT

Summary: Are Microsoft’s patent lawyers playing possum? Or are they really as clueless about what makes open-source software tick as they seem, based on Microsoft’s July 5 statement regarding the GPLv3 and Novell?

Are Microsoft’s patent lawyers playing possum? Or are they really as clueless about what makes open-source software tick as they seem?

Consider the latest patent-related statement Microsoft published to its Web site on July 5 a statement claiming it is not party to the GPLv3 and is not bound by it.

“While there have been some claims that Microsoft’s distribution of certificates for Novell support services, under our interoperability collaboration with Novell, constitutes acceptance of the GPLv3 license, we do not believe that such claims have a valid legal basis under contract, intellectual property, or any other law. In fact, we do not believe that Microsoft needs a license under GPL to carry out any aspect of its collaboration with Novell, including its distribution of support certificates, even if Novell chooses to distribute GPLv3 code in the future.”

Curious (and nervous) customers — and possibly other Linux vendors with whom Microsoft is still hoping to cut patent deals — must have started asking Microsoft about what it plans to do once Novell adopts the GPLv3, as its officials have indicated it plans to do.

Microsoft’s short answer: We’re trying to back out of the distribution part of our Novell deal as fast as we can. The Novell certificates distributed by Microsoft currently cover GPLv2-protected versions of SuSE Enterprise Linux. But, given these Linux certificates reportedly have no expiration date, there seems to be a chance that customers could use them for future GPL v3-covered Novell software. That’s why Microsoft’s adopting a poison pill now:

“Microsoft has decided that the Novell support certificates that we distribute to customers will not entitle the recipient to receive from Novell, or any other party, any subscription for support and updates relating to any code licensed under GPLv3,” according to the July 5 Microsoft statement.

Open-source expert and former Microsoft employee Stephen Walli wondered about Microsoft’s real open-source intentions, based on Microsoft’s latest legal statement:

“The (July 5) Microsoft statement seems a bit premature and over reaching,” Walli said. “Stating outright that they aren’t a party to it, means they’ve cut themselves off from using it in some future circumstance where it might be genuinely business beneficial. They would need to unmake this statement. By saying they can’t envision such a situation arising shows a lack of imagination, and makes them as religious on the issue as (Free Software Foundation founder Richard) Stallman. They remain ‘committed to working with the open source community’ without actually wanting to participate in it.”

Leave aside for a moment the question about whether Microsoft is trying to coopt or cooperate with the open-source movement. From a legal standpiont, here’s what doesn’t add up, to me. Microsoft employs hundreds (if not thousands) of lawyers. How could these lawyers have:

* failed to forsee that the Free Software Foundation would find a way to put a legal monkey wrench into the GPL to thwart Microsoft’s intent to undermine Linux and the GPL?

* allowed the Novell support certificates that Microsoft has been distributing to go out without an expiration date on them?

* expected Novell not to back the GPL v3, in spite of the money it paid to Novell to cement its first patent-protection deal with a Linux distributor?

Is Microsoft legal holding a trump card that no one knows about? Or is Microsoft really as inept in fighting off open source as it currently seems?

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Topics

Mary Jo has covered the tech industry for more than 25 years for a variety of publications and Web sites, and is a frequent guest on radio, TV and podcasts, speaking about all things Microsoft-related. She is the author of Microsoft 2.0: How Microsoft plans to stay relevant in the post-Gates era (John Wiley & Sons, 2008).

Disclosure

Mary-Jo Foley

Freelance journalist/blogger Mary Jo Foley has nothing to disclose. WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get). I do not own Microsoft stock or stock in any of its partners or competitors. I have no business ventures that are sponsored by/funded by Microsoft or any of its partners or competitors.

Biography

Mary-Jo Foley

Mary Jo Foley has covered the tech industry for 25 years for a variety of publications, including ZDNet, eWeek and Baseline. She has kept close tabs on Microsoft strategy, products and technologies for the past 10 years. In the late 1990s, she penned the award-winning "At The Evil Empire" column for ZDNet, and more recently the Microsoft Watch blog for Ziff Davis.

Got a tip? Send her an email with your rants, rumors, tips and tattles. Confidentiality guaranteed.

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RE: Are Microsoft's patent lawyers really this dumb?
dsfwrryd39-24353606884083056179624163738940 12th Nov
uimsam,good post!
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Can't be stopped
Tim Patterson 6th Jul 2007
Trump card or not, Microsoft cannot stop the rapid pace of Linux/FOSS adoption. The patent situation only really applies to the U.S. The MS patent saber-rattling is largely meaningless outside the U.S.

I don't think MS and their lawyers really understand the FOSS community and what motivates us. The usual tactics haven't worked. At best they can only hope to slow FOSS adoption in the U.S. but only in the short-term.

When is MS going to learn that cooperation and participation is a win-win. They cannot stop FOSS and continued attacks and threats will only hurt them in the long run. If MS were to choose real interoperabilty and cooperation they could eventually see the community working with them instead of having them as adversaries.
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Stopping unlicnesed use of their IP is quite a bit different than trying to stop open source.
is needed are good, well documented apis, protocols, and document formats. MS is actively trying to make sure that Windows does NOT interoperate, at the same time signing agreements to fix it.
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Nothing new here...
comp_indiana 9th Jul 2007
Microsoft has been playing this game for years. They practically invented it.
This is why the coddle the developers and IT folks. It would not work for them
unless the IT people and developers will look the other way while they block any
and all alternatives for anyone brave enough NOT to use their software.

The only reason the doc formats have changed is that open source has finally
caught up with the old proprietary formats.

Microsoft will never open their software formats, this is the key to the monopoly.
Sure, you can add whatever software you like (maybe you can do something
compelling, MS sure isn't worred about it) but there is no way you are going to get
them to ever play fair.

Since when has MS ever bothed with doing anything legal? And, why should they?
They never get punished, not even when they are convicted.
0 Votes
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MSFT competes with themselves
zdnet-gregc 21st Jul 2009
"The only reason the doc formats have changed is that open source has finally caught up with the old proprietary formats"

The doc formats (I assume you are referring to Office) would change regardless. Microsoft is in the software upgrade business and their main competitor is earlier versions of their own product.
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Theft?
Tim Patterson 6th Jul 2007
What theft bit?

Patents are not considered property in any sense of the word by people with functioning minds. Firstly the concept of patents on software is fundamentally flawed. So flawed that it's just silly to try and argue that they constitute 'property' in any form.

Exactly what "IP" of Microsoft's does Linux infringe bit? Obviously since MS isn't saying, you can't possibly either. So until and unless MS enumerates specific infringements there are none.
0 Votes
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Since he actually said that M$ wants to stop the aft. They are the leaders in the field and *seem* to see their job as stopping the competition, which are all behind them.

Of course the way they implement their tactics has bitten them many times but they always choose to pay the penalty, cash, behavioral or both, and continue on as before.

Time will tell if this is their best option.
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Semantics correction
Michael Kelly 6th Jul 2007
They are not stopping unlicensed use, they are preventing unlicensed use.

This is not akin to shooting the guy leaving your house with your TV. This is more akin to buying the gun and putting a sign out on your lawn saying "No Trespassers".
0 Votes
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Who stole what?
Yagotta B. Kidding 6th Jul 2007
0 Votes
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Tada!
zkiwi 6th Jul 2007
Care to describe and detail was you think is stolen? And don't say IP. That's saying you don't know.
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... to detail what patents are involved as the list may change. Hmmmmmmmmmmm. Why would that be? Do they already know that at least some of their claims will fail?

Until they do specify just what they consider to be theirs everyone else should take them at their word that it's not worth making a specific claim and skip any deals involving this attempt at selling a pig in a poke.
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Ok mister lawyer
I'm Ye, the MS SHILL . 8th Jul 2007
You say FOSS is stealing , stealing what ? Just because Microsoft made a bogus comments doesn't mean you should take it seriously . Even Ballmer said the ZUNE would take the iPods market . If anything your claim is no different than Microsofts . You big wind bags , you are just full of hot air .
0 Votes
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software that incorporated the IP of others.

They have never lost a patent suit over software, nor have they ever settled such a suit "out of court" with non-disclosure agreements included.

RIGHT???
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Show Us The Code No_Axe ?
Intellihence 28th Aug 2007
Show us the code No_Axe that you think Linux currently seems to be infringing on ?
You're more filed with hot air than Microsoft is . You truly are an arrogant Zealot .
The Goliath is leading you to the edge of a Mountain just to watch the lil Lemming fly
off ,,,
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Problem
SuperSean 6th Jul 2007
Tim, my problem with the FOSS movement is that the only way you can cooperate with them is to effectively give up your right to "license" for a fee your intellectual property. This is the position that the FSF have taken with GPLv3 - if you want to interoperate with ANYTHING covered by the GPLv3 then you have to in turn give away your IP as well.

That's simply ridiculous. Its the equivalent of saying that because Ford and GM want to "interoperate" and ensure their vehicles both run on independently produced gasoline that they should have to release detailed design information on their engines for anyone to use for free.

The creation of software and the "for fee" licensing of it is the single biggest wealth generator ever in the history of the planet. I just struggle to understand how or why its bad to want to "sell" software.

I just wish the FOSS movement spent less time on Microsoft, who are completely opposed and focussed on the wolf in sheeps clothing, Google. They have taken Linux and written some of the best clustering capabilities (by all accounts) and other incredibly powerful additions to Linux ever written, but they keep that "proprietary". Microsoft are happy to build a ladder themselves to get where they are going and hide the details of how they did it, Google wants to stand on the shoulders of giants, but heaven forbid they explain to anyone how they did it.
to create interoperability problems by creating baroque, overly complicated, and undocumented protocols, apis, and file formats. Then they turn around and try to sign half hearted agreements to collaborate on fixing all of the problems they intentionally created.

And, the IP sheeet is just that.
0 Votes
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No IP in MS interop?
DaveHowe 7th Jul 2007
Almost certainly there is - the whole OpenXML debacle has proven that MS will deliberately bend their file formats and network protocols to include Patents, either valid or invalid. If they are the latter, they can probably rely on nuisance value being enough, provided they keep their "bite" low, to convince many companies to pay up rather than fight to have (initally unidentified) patents invalidated in court.
0 Votes
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Wrong!
Tim Patterson 6th Jul 2007
Interoperability does not require the use or distribution of GPL v3 code.

All that is needed is properly documented APIs and adherence to established, open standards. MS purposely takes open standards and twists them into their own bastardized versions specifically to break compatibility for the purpose of maintaining monopoly.

Saying that the GPL forces anyone to give-up their "IP" is either just plain ignorance or purposeful misinformation.
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More complicated.
Anton Philidor 6th Jul 2007
Some companies will provide software free when the product in which it's used is open source, but charge a license fee when the downstream product is not.

You wrote:

"This is the position that the FSF have taken with GPLv3 - if you want to interoperate with ANYTHING covered by the GPLv3 then you have to in turn give away your IP as well."

That's not incorrect, but the same code can be covered and not covered by the GPL.

People are getting clever figuring out how to make money in the GPL ecosystem. You're right, the GPL is essentially hostile to a major industry, but if one can gain the advantage (low-cost development) and still make money, it's like a mouse figuring out how to grab the cheese without the trap closing.
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Completely wrong
chemist109 6th Jul 2007
You said:

"Tim, my problem with the FOSS movement is that the only way you can cooperate with them is to effectively give up your right to "license" for a fee your intellectual property. This is the position that the FSF have taken with GPLv3 - if you want to interoperate with ANYTHING covered by the GPLv3 then you have to in turn give away your IP as well."

What you're saying is completely ridiculous. Please explain to me how this has anything to do with interoperability. Either you have a distorted view of the GPL or you're just repeating anti-FOSS FUD.
0 Votes
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RE: Problem
super_J 6th Jul 2007
"Tim, my problem with the FOSS movement is that the only way you can cooperate with them is to effectively give up your right to "license" for a fee your intellectual property. This is the position that the FSF have taken with GPLv3 - if you want to interoperate with ANYTHING covered by the GPLv3 then you have to in turn give away your IP as well."

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

IBM makes billions licensing Websphere, DB2, AIX, Lotus, and others, at the same time giving Eclipse to the open source community, and fully supporting Linux and other open source products (with paid coders, donations, etc).

Oracle makes billions licensing Oracle database, Oracle JEE app server, Oracle ERP products, while fully supporting Linux and other open source products (with paid coders, donations, etc).

There are many others - Intel, HP, BEA ... the list goes on.

The simple fact of the matter is open source and licensed, proprietary software can and do co-exist spectacularly.

Also, it is quite possible to base a fabulously successful business on open source software - Red Hat, JBoss, Interface 21 (Spring), MySQL, Zend, Sugar CRM, all come to mind.

Open source is here to stay. Proprietary software is here to stay. The two co-exist. And we all benefit.

MS should just pull it's head out of it's butt, and stop fighting open source, and instead work with it. It's an inevitable win-win.
0 Votes
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Selling it, interoperating with it, authorizing use of the company's IP in it, what else would you have Microsoft do?

The issue here is the GPLv3, which is trying to prevent Microsoft's attempts to work with open source as the company would with any other competing software product and the companies which sell it.
0 Votes
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documentation
gtdavies33@... 6th Jul 2007
Document their protocols used in interop would be a start.
0 Votes
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Such as?
No_Ax_to_Grind 7th Jul 2007
I mean I've read the documentation, what is it you think is missing?
0 Votes
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Word97linebreak
Still Lynn 7th Jul 2007
It's needed for interoperation with so-called OOXML. It's not defined anywhere in the docs. That is just one item out of 6000 pages of "specifications".

Next!
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A ten year old app?
No_Ax_to_Grind 7th Jul 2007
Pffttt... the world doesn't care about a ten year old app. And by the way, this ten year old app has nothing to do with ooxml.
0 Votes
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Pfffft? Your tires are flat again?
Still Lynn 7th Jul 2007
The undefined elements of the interface specification have nothing to do with the ooxml API. OK

You're obviously not a programmer. You don't understand some of the basics of the practice. Or you are just saying something untrue for effect (so it's not an actual lie that way).

Remeber to watch out for alligators when you are this deep in de_Nile!!
The issue here is the GPLv3, which is trying to prevent Microsoft's attempts to work with open source as the company would with any other competing software product and the companies which sell it.

Ha ha. Now take your tongue out of your cheek.



happy
0 Votes
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It's both the GPL and MS's terms
Michael Kelly 6th Jul 2007
You know, Microsoft COULD simply accept the GPL's terms as well. But they refuse to do so. And the FSF refuses to abide by MS's terms. So it's not just one side's fault here. The difference, however, is that the FSF couldn't give two spits whether or not their software interoperates with MS's software.
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My Bigger Problem...
SuperSean 8th Jul 2007
Personally, I don't care either way, in my environment we make use of both FOSS and Commercial software in large amounts. The thing that does concern me about the FSF in particular and the GPLv3, is the almost religious like zeal that they are pursuing with an idealogical position.

Purely from a corporate buyer's perspective, I think the GPLv3 is a huge concern because it creates a level of uncertainty around licensing. One thing that held back open source software a few years back was that corporate buyers were concerned about IP breaches and the licensing aspects. Over the past few years, the FOSS community and some large corporates like IBM and Red Hat have done a good job convincing people that this boogeyman doesn't exist.

Now, the FSF has come along, dropped GPLv3 out there and it has muddied the water again. This whole debate, no matter what side you are on, boils down to the fact that the GPLv3 and its impact are not clearly understood by anyone, including the FSF or even Microsoft.

The FOSS was making good inroads, getting good progress, now the FSF in their zeal to ensure that all software be "free" (which is Richard Stallman's stated position) has potentially clouded the issue. Or, conversely, they've wasted alot of their time and other people's money writing a license that nobody is brave enough to use.

Who knows?
0 Votes
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"in my environment...... The thing that
does concern me about the FSF in
particular and the GPLv3........ from a
corporate buyer's perspective.... a huge
concern.... this boogeyman doesn't
exist.... This whole debate.....

Sounds like your biggest problem is
deciding what the whole debate is. You
do a great job of walking the fence and
jumping from one side to the other.

Perhaps, if you read something besides
the Microsoft propaganda, it would
improve your perspective?

http://news.com.com/2100-1001-275366.html

Security problems open Microsoft's
Wallet
Software flaws in the security of
Microsoft's Passport authentication
system left consumers' financial data
wide open, causing the software giant to
remove a key service from the Internet
to protect people from having their data
stolen, a company representative
acknowledged Friday.

http://news.com.com/More+WMF+problems+for+Microsoft/2100-1002_3-6024931.html

Just days after Microsoft rushed out a
patch to fix a critical Windows flaw
related to the processing of Windows
Meta File images, two more problems with
the component were flagged.

http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=8411

Yet more security problems hit Microsoft
Windows products

ISA Server 2000 and all versions of
Windows OS

http://www.securityfocus.com/columnists/423

Vista's EULA Product Activation Worries

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:6ZyBv1YKMasJ:www.camtp.uni-mb.si/opensource/GPL-EULA/comparing_the_gpl_to_eula.pdf+Problems+with+Microsoft+EULA&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=6&gl=us

In this analysis, we review both the
Microsoft EULA and the GPL used for most
Free/Open Source
Software. We particularly look at what
the similarities and differences are
between these two
licenses. We will also try and provide a
quantitative determination of what
positives both licenses
carry for you, the user, along what the
negatives are.

http://www.macobserver.com/article/2002/10/24.6.shtml

Microsoft EULA May Conflict With More
Federal Privacy Laws
http://boston.internet.com/news/article.php/1485861

Is Microsoft Licensing Forcing Banks to
Break The Law?

http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.windowsxp.general/browse_thread/thread/a2f97f526cd51aa7/fd345b9bdf095551%23fd345b9bdf095551

Activation for used WinXP OEM, any
problems?


http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20061019/102225.shtml

A Random Walk Through The Microsoft
Vista EULA

Dirty Tricks
Annexing the Public Domain
In 1995 a virtually unknown company
called Corbis purchased the Bettman
Archives, the world's largest private
collection of historical and newspaper
photographs. Corbis, a company founded
in 1989 and owned by Bill Gates, is also
actively negotiating with museums
worldwide for exclusive licenses to
electronically reproduce works of art
held in their collections. Since that
time, the Corbis "collection" has
swelled to over 20 million images.
The apparent purpose is to provide
Microsoft with access to a huge supply
of exclusive cultural "content" for its
web sites and multimedia CDs, and to
prevent others from obtaining similar
access. The rub is that Corbis now holds
exclusive reproduction rights to images
which are not copyrighted, but are in
held in the public domain. Gates has
seduced these museums, presumably with
promises of future residuals, into
veering from their missions as trustees
of our cultural legacies, and into
exploring the murkiest areas of "fair
use" practices and curatorial ethics.


The Protection Racket
The Business Software Alliance is
ostensibly a trade association that
tracks down pirated software on behalf
of its members in the software industry.
But the BSA mainly does Microsoft's
bidding, according to an investigation
conducted by Mother Jones Magazine.
According to the magazine, the BSA files
suits against offending organizations,
but quickly drops them when they agree
to sign deals to purchase Microsoft
software exclusively. The
article "Overseas Invasion" documents
cases of BSA blackmail in Europe, South
America and Australia.

A GRAB BAG OF DECEPTION, DISHONESTY &
HIGH-HANDED TACTICS
Privacy is Where You Find it
Microsoft managed to grab headlines with
their announced intentions to pull
company advertising from any web site
that doesn't publish a privacy
statement. So they're on our side of the
privacy issue, right? Well, that appears
to depend entirely on who's doing the
transgressing. Only months before, it
was discovered that Microsoft Office
secrets an identifier code in every
document -- a unique code that can trace
the file right back to the computer that
created it. Microsoft issued all the
standard denials in this instance, of
course, and promptly issued a "fix" for
Office. But now they apparently expect
us to accept the utterly unbelievable --
that the company is actually driving the
privacy issue in our behalf.
For stories on the Office privacy
invasion, see Pharlap Software and CNET.
For other blatant Microsoft privacy
hypocrisies, see Registration Under
Duress and Peeping Bill, on this page.
[26 June 1999]


In the final analysis, Bill Gates'
legacy will be money, not ideas.
Contrary to Net paranoia, Gates isn't
evil, just typical: another mogul run
amok, ultimately reined in by his own
arrogance -- and the ferociously
independent and resilient culture he
came so close to conquering.
JON KATZ, San Jose

Am I Blue?
On November 18, 1998 the digital
greeting card company Blue Mountain Arts
discovered that beta versions of
Microsoft's Outlook Express (which comes
free with Internet Explorer) were
automatically filing Blue Mountain's
e-mail greeting cards into the "junk"
folder rather than the "inbox." Shortly
afterwards, Blue Mountain Arts
discovered that Microsoft's WebTV
service was blocking their e-mail
greeting cards as well.
Why would Microsoft want to prevent
electronic greeting cards from being
delivered? It turns out that after an
unsuccessful attempt to purchase Blue
Mountain Arts, Microsoft started its own
electronic greeting card service.
The "bug" in Outlook Express appeared at
about the same time that Microsoft's
greeting card service began.
Coincidence? The Honorable Robert A.
Baines didn't think so, and granted a
preliminary injunction against Microsoft
to protect the delivery of Blue Mountain
Arts greeting cards. Microsoft reacted
to this injunction by removing the
e-mail filter from Outlook Express.
Microsoft claims to have attempted to
assist Blue Mountain with this problem,
but according to Blue Mountain Arts,
that assistance consisted mostly of
telling them to wait for the next
release of Internet Explorer at "an
unspecified date in the future."
References from Blue Mountain, IDG, and
Microsoft. [27 March 1999]


A Tangled Web
When the courts ordered Microsoft to
ship Windows without an integrated
Internet Explorer, the
company "complied" by offering a
non-functional version of the OS,
claiming that the browser was now so
completely integrated into Windows to
remove it was tantamount to "breaking"
the operating system. But in Federal
court in December, Princeton University
Professor Edward Felten handily debunked
this claim, demonstrating a program
written by two graduate students that
removes MSIE functionality from Windows
98 -- a feat worthy of Houdini, if
Microsoft is to be believed.
Ah, but that's not the real dirty trick.
In cross examination, Microsoft's
attorney attempted to show that Felten's
IE exorciser had indeed broken Windows,
charging that the program was
incompatible with the Microsoft Windows
98 update web site. The attorney
explained that Microsoft had problems
with Felton's program since it was
turned over to them in the discovery
process in September.
No, answered Professor Felten, the
program had worked properly since it was
completed in the spring, except for a
period in December when Microsoft
altered the update web site, temporarily
disabling the program and requiring him
to change it. This exchange led
presiding Judge Penfield Jackson to
inquire of the witness, "Are you telling
me that as part of discovery you
provided this code in September,
whereupon there appears to have been
product changes by Microsoft?" Professor
Felten concurred with the Judge's
assessment.
As reported on ZDNet. [15 Dec 98]


Registration Under Duress
With the release of Office 2000,
Microsoft will introduce another
innovation in consumer abuse: mandatory
product registration. According to this
scheme, if a copy of Office 2000 remains
unregistered after 50 launches, it will
cease functioning on the 51st attempt --
and will remain disabled until the owner
calls Microsoft and tells them whatever
they want to know. Not only is the
company planning on invading the privacy
of its customers, they are unilaterally
restricting their ability to use a
product they've paid for by placing
arbitrary and insulting preconditions on
its use.
As reported in CNN, and elsewhere. [12
Nov 98]


Peeping Bill
Microsoft is now using its WebTV boxes
as an in-house consumer data-gathering
tool -- with "in house" defined as "in
customer's houses." Microsoft polls
WebTV boxes nightly to collect customer
web surfing and viewing habits --
statistics which in turn are sold to
advertisers. But there's more: When the
first Window CE television cable boxes
hit the market in 1999, they will invite
Microsoft's prying eyes into at least 5
million additional homes, and will be
armed with an even more comprehensive
ability to track customer viewing habits
and report them to advertisers. ?Mi casa
es su casa?
As reported in USA Today (Link no longer
functioning, but also reported by
ZDNet).


Smothering Freeware
Containing commercial competitors is one
matter, but undercutting the free
software movement is another -- one
Microsoft has apparently designated a
high priority. As a measure of the
perceived threat of freeware, witness
Microsoft's maneuvers to marginalize
Samba, the freeware application that
permits the Linux OS (a free Unix
derivative) to communicate with Windows
NT, 95 and 98, among others. The
combination of Linux and Samba can
obviate the need for Windows NT servers,
one of Microsoft's most coveted markets.
And that can't be allowed to happen.
Microsoft's stealth war against Linux
and Samba opened with the release of
Service Pack 3 for Windows NT 4. With
this release, Microsoft implemented a
subtle change to NT's communications
protocols, making it incompatible with
Samba. An adjustment to the Windows NT
registry can reverse the
incompatibility, but at the same time
Microsoft eliminated the instructions
for this fix from their website. In
fact, they went several steps further --
by erasing from the website every
reference to Samba and a previously
posted technical article.
Microsoft's company philosophy was never
more clear; competing technology, no
matter the source, cannot be allowed to
survive. Freeware like Samba may be
invulnerable to the usual marketing
ploys, but that won't stop Microsoft
from attempting to will it out of
existence.
As reported by Robert X. Cringely
0 Votes
+ -
Re: My Bigger Problem...
none none 8th Jul 2007
The thing that does concern me about the FSF in particular and the GPLv3, is the almost religious like zeal that they are pursuing with an idealogical position.

Why does that concern a corporate buyer? Heck, they don't care that their cubicles and desks were made by criminals in prisons, nor should they. Is it a good deal or not? Besides, read on. Using GPL-covered software on your systems is not covered by the GPL.


Purely from a corporate buyer's perspective, I think the GPLv3 is a huge concern because it creates a level of uncertainty around licensing.

This one is easy. You don't need a license to use GPL-covered software. The GPL is a copyright license - it authorizes activities that copyright law prohibits except under license from the copyright holder. You didn't have concerns about licensing uncertainty when you subscribed to Business Week to put a copy in your reception area. The only difference between GPL-covered software and Business Week is you can copy and distribute the software.


Over the past few years, the FOSS community and some large corporates like IBM and Red Hat have done a good job convincing people that this boogeyman doesn't exist.

The important thing to realize is that someone invented that boogeyman in the first place and conducted a PR campaign to make sure corporate buyers were exposed to the FUD. As you noted, the truth prevailed as it often does. Now the same people are trying to convince you there's another boogeyman. Are you going to believe them this time, too, and waste another few years while IBM and Red Hat convince you again there's no monster under the bed?

The people hostile to open source have a closet full of boogeymen to scare you with.



happy
0 Votes
+ -
ODF!
cheesyone 9th Jul 2007
M$ had every opportunity to work with and work on the ODF (Open Document Format), but refused to do so. They were invited to the party, but said "FU." Now that ODF has been accepted as a standard M$, is left with either utilizing the new standard WITHOUT any M$ proprietary code involved, or their present tactic - get OOXML approved as a standard WITH M$ proprietary code.

Code that anyone could use? Even their competition? Open and freely available code? No way, Jose! M$ is just shooting themselves in the foot. Hope they leave it untreated long enough for gangrene to take their leg out from under them.

FOSS & the rest of the Open Source community practically got on their knees and begged M$ to join in. Any problems M$ now has are strictly their own doing.
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Massachusetts comes to mind
Update victim 9th Jul 2007
Instead of using the open source and international standard ODF which they could do, they instead spend billions to destroy ODF and attempting to obtain a "standard" classification for a proprietary format.

You are the one who has made GPLv3 the issue here. Microsoft wants to OWN my files and everyone else's files by OWNING the format in which these files are stored. This is actually a form of thievery.

If Microsoft really wanted to cooperate with everyone else they could place Open XML into the public domain and provide a perpetual and free license to everyone.
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Supersean,
Update victim 9th Jul 2007
Are you trying to prove that you know nothing about automobiles. Any decent mechanic can provide full information on the engines of either of these, or any other, automobile manufacturer. Just disassemble and measure. By selling the engines, in cars or separately, the manufacturers of engines have provided full information on exactly how they work and what materials are used in them.

?I just struggle to understand how or why its bad to want to "sell" software.? It's not bad to want to sell software. Unfortunately despite the court cases that stated software sold at retail in a shrink wrapped box was in fact sold, Microsoft still claims that they do not sell software, only ?license? it.

What is bad is using a monopoly position ( We won't discuss at this time the legality of the monopoly position other than to note that it was part of the DOJ anti trust suit against Microsoft.. ) to obstruct the sale of a competitor's product. Microsoft was convicted of this exact crime.
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Software sold at retail...
laplatakid 10th Jul 2007
You stated "...the court cases that stated software sold at retail in a shrink wrapped box was in fact sold..." and not licensed. I've followed the licensing vs. selling arguments loosely over the years but don't recall this decision. Can you elucidate?
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losing
zzz1234567890 6th Jul 2007
If you have been following the numbers linux is losing market share.


"If MS were to choose real interoperabilty and cooperation they could eventually see the community working with them instead of having them as adversaries. "

MS did try interoperability, however its the FSF folks who dont want interoperability.
However the FSF din't realize is they have no right to regulate or distribute IP that doesnt belong to them. Their poison pill GPL 3.0 will be deemed illegal (because it really is). One cannot make laws or deals on what one doesnt own or has no legal right over.
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Predicting Court decisions...
Anton Philidor 6th Jul 2007
... is placing a bet on an uncertain outcome.

You wrote:

"Their poison pill GPL 3.0 will be deemed illegal (because it really is). One cannot make laws or deals on what one doesnt own or has no legal right over."

When Microsoft made its agreement with Novell, I have the impression Mr. Stallman was surprised that it could occur and that the GPLv3 was changed in response.

Me, I think that Mr. Stallman and the FSF are competent people who know how to achieve what they intended in GPLv3. Whether the outcome is beneficial to anyone and how widely it will or should be accepted are other issues.

It's useful to have respect for your opponent, whether that's Microsoft or the FSF.
trying to create the interoperability problems, and then sign agreements to fix the very problems they are creating. There is absolutely NO reason that GPL3 code can not interoperate with Windows, it is just that MS does not want it.
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Let me finish your statement for you...

"There is absolutely NO reason that GPL3 code can not interoperate with Windows."

As long as Microsoft gives away their IP to open source. Sorry, not on this planet...
might like the idea that MS has pledged to not sue them, but it might be more likely that they get struck by lightning than MS suing them.

AGAIN, THERE IS NOT IP NEEDED FOR GOOD OPEN PROTOCOLS, APIS, AND FILE FORMATS.
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Who said anything about open???
No_Ax_to_Grind 6th Jul 2007
MS is not in the open business, they are propriatary. Did that fact escape you?
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Interoperability says open
Still Lynn 7th Jul 2007
Black box says closed.


No [semantic] escape for you!!


You have handcuffed yourself to the black box and its black ops.

But you are *free* to make or change that choice.
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Interop = propriatary
No_Ax_to_Grind 7th Jul 2007
Now would you like me to rub your face in all the propriatary code that interops with other propriatary code? Shall we start with video formats???
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Oooohh!! Nasty bite!!
Still Lynn 7th Jul 2007
I warned you about those alligators!!
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I'm a Novell customer
Yagotta B. Kidding 6th Jul 2007
And all those Novell customers say your dead wrong.

Are you suggesting that I know more about this subject than the rest of the board?

Otherwise, your comment was completely irrelevant.
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A 386 in your basement doesn't quite count.
No_Ax_to_Grind 7th Jul 2007
Run along.
... wihtout their authorization (or do you have an agreement with them that you can refer us to?) you keep ignoring the fact that APIs can, at best, only be trade secrets. And if they don't want interoperability they can not only withhold the APIs they can also break them without providing documentation as to how they changed them. Oh right, not could, but *did*. And may do so again. After all, they can afford to pay the penalties for at least a while longer.
Here you make a claim, yet when (as claimed) actual Novell customers post, you have to belittle them in order to keep your lie alive. Is this another case where No_Ax_to_Grind means (or is interpreted as) knows nothing, has no data to support supposition, and generally knows nothing but yet still posts (perhaps due to a lack of actual human contact in a very long time)?
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40,000 polled, 90% said they loved it
No_Ax_to_Grind 7th Jul 2007
Do try to keep up.
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RE: Are Microsoft's patent lawyers really this dumb?
dsfwrryd39-24353606884083056179624163738940 12th Nov
uimsam,good post!

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