Can an open-source backer thrive inside Microsoft? This one says no

By | May 25, 2011, 10:04am PDT

Summary: People join and leave Microsoft every day. One open-source backer who is leaving Microsoft after a three-year stint there provides his take on why Microsoft wasn’t a good fit for him.

In 2008, Microsoft hired Hamilton “Hammett” Verissimo, the founder of the open-source Castle Project, as a program manager on the Microsoft Extensibility Framework (MEF) team in the company’s Developer Division. On May 17, 2011, Verissimo quit Microsoft.

People join and leave Microsoft every day. (In fact, the last of the original Xbox founders submitted his resignation from Microsoft this week.) But I was interested in hearing from Verissimo whether it was a conflict in open/closed source philosophies that led to his decision to go. It turns out many of his frustrations are similar to ones I’ve heard shared by those leaving Microsoft whether or not they were in the open-source camp.

I realize every story has two sides. For what it’s worth, here’s Verissimo’s side of his tale about his three years in Redmond. I submitted questions to him via e-mail and he returned with his answers. I edited out a bit of the personal health-related information Verissimo included; otherwise, this Q&A is verbatim.

MJF: What are your reasons for leaving Microsoft?

HV: (Reasons) aplenty. First, it never felt they were making good use of my skills and potential. Instead, I had to develop skills to traverse a sea of politics. It’s a very inefficient company, with very little or nothing being done to make it better. MS has small windows of actual product development (new code being written) followed by long period of stabilization. It’s waterfall as its best. For PMs, like me, some manager pushes idiot time consuming exercises like scenario validation.. two months to produce collateral that is bound to be useless in six months, since everything is likely to change.

Secondly, the “toxic environment” and its impact on MS’ products. Since MS has a performance review system that values “individual” contributions over team work, everybody want to make impact on everything. Another way to read it is that everybody wants to voice opinions and suggestions and drive them to execution, which commonly lead to mutually exclusive ideas, and you, as a PM, will have to figure out a way to make everyone happy if you want to make progress. That leads to dysfunctional products. As a matter of fact, I remember the template I *had* to use to set my commitments/deliverables had something like “you go to spec review meetings and make valuable comments”

One thing that really frustrated me was that those random suggestions come from intuition, instead of actual scenarios/facts/data, and commonly show how disconnected MS employees are from the real world. In my case, as I worked in the developer division, it demonstrated how people there were disconnected from how developers work, and what they value. I had to constantly remind them that we should strive for simplicity since developers don’t have the time to become expert on our product, since it would be another tool in their toolbox.

Finally, there are the managers. I don’t know how much time people spend reading Mini Microsoft, and specially the comments there. It was actually therapeutic to me. Finding out that what was happening (via Mini) is quite common.

MJF: Does this decision have any impact on Castle?

HV: Only positive, since now I have more time to spend with it.

MJF: What’s your opinion on how Microsoft’s interaction with the open-source community is/isn’t changing?

HV: The internal (Microsoft) culture is about competition, which is unfortunate. MS never ceases to release projects and products with similar (or equal) open source counterparts. And they do so in the name of “our customers are demanding it” which is probably true.

What they don’t realize is that this action undermines the very ecosystem they should foster around their platform. Startups for example hardly chooses MS platform given that the perception is that there isn’t a strong open source community around it.

MJF: What could have made you decide to stay at MS (if anything)?

HV: A big change of chairs at the top would be encouraging. Starting with (CEO Steve) Ballmer, but not excluding (Senior Vice President of Human Resources) Lisa Brummel.

MJF: What are you going to be doing next?

HV: I’m moving back to Vancouver, BC. Will stay closer to my son and work for a local company there as framework architect.

MJF: Does your departure from MS affect any projects in MEF or other parts of the company? Will anyone be replacing you there?

HV: I assume someone will replace me, but haven’t heard who. I assume they are trying hard to hire a bunch of new PMs, since three have left the CoreFx team (a team inside the Common Language Runtime, CLR, team) recently, including myself.

Kick off your day with ZDNet's daily e-mail newsletter. It's the freshest tech news and opinion, served hot. Get it.

Topics

Mary Jo has covered the tech industry for more than 25 years for a variety of publications and Web sites, and is a frequent guest on radio, TV and podcasts, speaking about all things Microsoft-related. She is the author of Microsoft 2.0: How Microsoft plans to stay relevant in the post-Gates era (John Wiley & Sons, 2008).

Disclosure

Mary-Jo Foley

Freelance journalist/blogger Mary Jo Foley has nothing to disclose. WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get). I do not own Microsoft stock or stock in any of its partners or competitors. I have no business ventures that are sponsored by/funded by Microsoft or any of its partners or competitors.

Biography

Mary-Jo Foley

Mary Jo Foley has covered the tech industry for 25 years for a variety of publications, including ZDNet, eWeek and Baseline. She has kept close tabs on Microsoft strategy, products and technologies for the past 10 years. In the late 1990s, she penned the award-winning "At The Evil Empire" column for ZDNet, and more recently the Microsoft Watch blog for Ziff Davis.

Got a tip? Send her an email with your rants, rumors, tips and tattles. Confidentiality guaranteed.

89
Comments

Join the conversation!

Just In

RE: Can an open-source backer thrive inside Microsoft? This one says no
homeioy1401-24353655183691126463333317805426 10th Nov
gxzycl,good post!
0 Votes
+ -
Not the least surprised
Economister Updated - 25th May 2011
These are precisely the reasons MS will eventually go under, unless radical changes are undertaken. They will not be able to compete in the new fast moving nimble mobile world, where they do not have an entrenched dominant legacy position. I get a very distinct impression that MS is doing little but reacting to external events it cannot control.

And let the fan boys respond with how much money MS has/is making. It is not relevant to the future, except MS has a lot more time to squander that money.
0 Votes
+ -
Message has been deleted.
Will Pharaoh Updated - 26th May 2011
0 Votes
+ -
@Will Pharaoh - throwing a yellow flag - he didn't say "don't tell me i'm wrong", or express any unwillingness to discuss - he just pre-defended against one single argument, "you must be wrong because they have a lot of money."
0 Votes
+ -
Yes, but....
Cayble 25th May 2011
@daboochmeister
...its the dumbest thing he could say! Saying a companies current and past performance and profitability isn't relevant to the future is beyond ludicrous. I suspect he was trying to point out that different things can happen in the future that could interfere with a companies track record...fair enough but thats obvious and without some even slight indication of what that change would be, its pointless to say any particular successful company is going down because things can change.

He says Microsoft will not be able to compete in a fast moving nimble mobile world, where they do not have an entrenched dominant legacy position. Says he. And who is he? Clearly someone who thinks that phones are going to rule the world. I myself am betting not. Again so what. Neither of us have any hard facts to prove our position and as such predicting the downfall of one of the largest most successful corporations in the world based on unsupported personal opinion is hardly worth making the effort to write it.

Don't suggest that the long term profitability of a company is not a good indicator of future prospects. It is unless there is some other REAL facts that indicate something new that is bound to have a new and negative impact. There is nothing like that right now, and no genuine sign that it may somehow be on the horizon.

For Economister to say that all the money MS has made in the past doesn't matter is just nonsense. It does matter. A lot.
0 Votes
+ -
Say what you will @Cabyle, but...
blind obedience 29th May
...if you really think we're going to be indefinitely tied down with keyboards, mice and desktops for the next few decades, you are living in a museum piece from the 90s. Phones, tablets and other lightly-powered smart devices will come along and make the traditional desktop even less relevant as times goes on.

Notice I said "less relevant". Not entirely disappear. I don't always deal in absolutes like you do
0 Votes
+ -
Ive been pointing out the same for years
Richard Flude 25th May 2011
It was obvious from the outside. Now confirmed from the inside. Expect the usual to apologize for them.
0 Votes
+ -
@Richard Flude
But in the long run, what does all that mean or indicate? Nothing I suspect. Its just business as usual in Big Corporate America, and will probably continue along that way just fine if we like it or not.
0 Votes
+ -
@Richard Flude
it allows one to comment on things already known as to make one believe they had said that all along.
0 Votes
+ -
Spock, that's Hindsight bias
Richard Flude 25th May 2011
The problem for you is the dozens of posts pointing out the disconnect between the USD8+ billion spent per annum by MS and the lack of new products.

Then we look at your posts...
0 Votes
+ -
Typical nonsense.
Cayble 25th May 2011
@Economister
I guess then its the same reasons why Apple will eventually go under because unlike the Apple apologists, I don't simply believe everything negative about MS and give Apple a pass on the exact same crap.

Its been established for quite awhile now that there are some practices at many firms, Apple included that create oppressive conditions and the reality is whats good for the goose is good for the gander. The bottom line is that Microsoft is so so far from going under you might just as well predict the demise of any company, no matter how successful they are.

Do I believe what this Verissimo is saying? I suspect its at least mostly true. So what. Its going to take a lot more then this nonsense to make a company like MS go under. If you worked in fast food you could say the exact same thing about McDonald's, in retail you could talk about Walmart and the list goes on.

Unfortunately, history has shown that a company that is hugely successful as Microsoft is often has many policies and ways of doing things that rub all sorts of employees the wrong way and for good reason. History has also shown that it never amounts to anything like enough on its own to put a company under.

Wake up and stop wishful dreaming.
0 Votes
+ -
A little bit of critical reading and thinking.
Economister Updated - 25th May 2011
@Cayble

So you "suspect its at least mostly true". Maybe then you need to re-read his answer to the first question - slowly and carefully - and think about the implications, when the industry is going through an inflection point and things are changing very quickly.

We have a fairly long list of recent failures from MS as symptoms of precisely what he is talking about. Margins will be squeezed more and more, with MS's cash cows slowly losing ground. MS is reactive rather than proactive. By the time they come out with a product or solution the market has already moved on. You can literally see it happening before your eyes.

Will Apple last forever? probably not, but they started this whole ball rolling. They are setting the direction with vision and execution. MS is just lumbering behind, essentially without a clue.

I know that MS has the resources to stay in this battle for a long time. Unless they get their act together, they are just going to pi$$$ away the shareholders' money. The more they have/make to pi$$$ away, the more "criminal" it gets.
0 Votes
+ -
Going under?
drobinow 26th May 2011
@Cayble You've created a straw man. No sane person thinks Microsoft is "going under". The fact is they've disappointed their shareholders for the last ten years. Verissimo has pointed out some issues that may be contributing factors. I think the company has gotten too big and would be worth more if it split itself up.
@Cayble 3 Letters IBM
0 Votes
+ -
Fat vs. fittest = fat wins
KimTjik Updated - 4th Jun
@Cayble
I don't expect MS fall any time soon either. Independent on the company in question this is the unfortunate reality of our current economical system, fiercely defended by some and not challenged by others. In economical crisis fat survives the fittest, hence stalling innovation.

Hopefully becoming fat was honestly achieved by innovation. As I see it the unfortunate reality behind Microsoft's success was that it become fat on stalling innovation, and kept many challengers busy dealing with legal matters instead of technological.

However no one expect an ideal market. We've left to deal with what we have at the moment.
0 Votes
+ -
@Economister It's all about leadership and their strategic vision. MSFT has largely become a me-too company with a relatively flat stock. Based on the article, it would seem that internally MSFT has a lot of work to do (which takes the RIGHT leadership and Ballmer aint it) in order to improve things.

Windows has essentially become a commodity. While I don't see them being threatened anytime soon on the enterprise server side of the house, certainly in the mobile and desktop/laptop/table/phone arenas there are other WORTHY alternatives out there.

Case and Point. For the first time since the early 90s, I am finally running a non Microsoft OS (Ubuntu 11.04) and since May 1st of this year, I have had NO reason to boot up my Windows 7 PC. I am seriously considering putting Ubuntu (only) on that one as well this weekend.
0 Votes
+ -
On outsting Ballmer
DevStar 25th May 2011
Mary, is it possible for you to do a piece or give some insight into Eric Rudder? He was supposed to have been the heir to the throne at MS a decade ago, but he's gone completely quiet. Did Ballmer put him on a "secret project" to keep him out of the limelight as a potential CEO replacement?
0 Votes
+ -
Contributr
Rudder
Mary Jo Foley 25th May 2011
Hi. I've asked repeatedly to talk to Midori folks including Rudder to no avail. I think your theory about Ballmer putting him in a place to prevent him from being the CEO is way way offbase. I don't think he's on the short list. I doubt he has the skillset for that job, and would be he isn't interested in it, given what he's done in the past. MJ
@Mary Jo Foley , thanks for the reply Mary. I do look forward to them having to eventually talk to you. happy

I do ask about Rudder taking over because it seemed like he was commonly referred to as "heir" in the past. For example, this 6 year old NY Times article: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/25/technology/25soft.html?ei=5090&en=1772bfb57bd96695&ex=1274673600&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1117026268-k7+Uj7i3wp3NDhr0nOowFw

But Rudder moved to run Midori and then rarely a peep about him anymore. Just given all of the management shuffling they've had, it's odd that we've heard nothing about arguably their most highly regarded lieutenant.
@Mary Jo Foley, EricR's Midori science project has been going on for 5+ years with high level (director, partner) team members. He is continuing his micromanagement and ultra-abrasive style even there. Those are poor imitations of BillG given EricR's own record.
Apart from Sinofsky whose rise is considered inevitable, there are rising stars like Satya Nadella. But real hope is heroes like ScottGu who really get it (yeah, Hammett was hired in his org in the first place). Of course, Scott is a mere VP while there are lots of SVPs and presidents running their own mini-empires and fighting turf wars.
0 Votes
+ -
FOSS has no business model
LBiege 25th May 2011
In the bizarre FOSS world where excellent performance is not rewarded with profit, subprime performance becomes the standard performance, standard performance becomes the excellent performance and real excellent performance is no where to be found.

So of course it does not fit in a for-profit org like MSFT.
0 Votes
+ -
@LBiege

Obviously not.
0 Votes
+ -
correction of typos
Linux Geek 25th May 2011
@LBiege
instead of FOSS you should read MSFT.
@LBiege, It did find a fit in MSFT, jQuery (just one example).

I bet you hold the same views about wikipedia.
@LBiege
"In the bizarre FOSS world where excellent performance is not rewarded with profit"
This is not backed up with any facts. My participation in an open source project landed me in a 5 digit salary position. Your post is a misguided and over assuming opinion.
@kirovs@... 5 digit? $10,000? Livin' the dream!
@PedroTabs@...
Sorry, 6 digits. But you are getting the idea I see....
0 Votes
+ -
Case study in Organizational Development
facebook@... 25th May 2011
This is not really the differences in approach between Open Source and Closed Source. The most impactful componeent that Hamilton highlighted is organizational structures.

This is, in fact, one of the major challenges of large open source projects as well. OpenOffice and LibreOffice are littered with functions and routines that only solve one or two business use cases, making OpenOfice an extremely bloated application.

The key is to develop organizations and manage the Application Lifecycle appropriately.
"Starting with (CEO Steve) Ballmer"

This is one thing I totally disagree. As a few intelligent people pointed out, Ballmer is simply unreplacable. I believe people who talk may not necessarily smarter than BillG. If BillG says Steve is fine, then you have to believe he is fine.

By the way, bad mouthing your former employer after leave is not wisest thing to do. I wouldn't do that even they fired me. If he sent a private email to SteveB, that's a different story.
0 Votes
+ -
I disagree with you...
GoodThings2Life 25th May 2011
@jk_10 ... I'm a huge Microsoft supporter, but I don't think any sane business-savvy person can make any valid excuses for the mismanagement that Steve has caused. I believe Steve is a smart man, certainly, so don't assume I mean otherwise, but his management styles have been very oppressive to the company's talents. I'm sure there are others at fault, but any CEO that allows bad leadership to thrive is the prime person to fault.
0 Votes
+ -
I know...
jk_10 Updated - 25th May 2011
@GoodThings2Life the whole universe disagree with me, but the truth is the truth. Just ask yourself why he is still there? Only two things possible: you and the universe are wrong, or Bill Gates is wrong. I think more likely, Bill Gates knows Microsoft a little better than you and the rest of the world do.
0 Votes
+ -
It isn't easy to sack a friend
WilErz 26th May 2011
@ jk_10

Even if Gates does think Ballmer should go, it isn't easy to sack a friend -- maybe Steve Jobs could do it without any compunctions, but most people couldn't (and that probably includes Gates).

I don't know enough about Ballmer and Microsoft to have an opinion on whether or not Ballmer should go. His iPhone gaffe is legendary, but he seems to have kept Windows and Office in dominant positions on the desktop and led Windows Server to dominance in the server market. Some of the other businesses have been steadily growing too.

I do think it's clear that Ballmer isn't very good at understanding what consumers (as opposed to business customers) want, but that's easily solved by putting someone else in charge of the consumer-focused businesses. If Ballmer isn't willing to do that, then maybe he should go. If he is, then I don't see a problem.
@GoodThings2Life
That is an excellent bootlick. I hope you shined Ballmer's boots first.

lol...
@jk_10
gates has been wrong plenty of times, including the success of Apple's iPad. MS stock price hasn't changed much in the past 10 years. I love Ballmer in that he's been steering MS in a backwards direction.
If you're beholden to Gates, by all means, kindle that bromance.
0 Votes
+ -
@ bonzo99

Apart from being fallible and having made his share of mistakes, Bill Gates says he only spends about 10 per cent of his time on Microsoft. His focus is his philanthropic foundation.
@jk_10
Ballmer had better be replaceable, because he will not be there forever.

I think Mr. Verissimo is being candid and honest with his post-mortem. I also believe that the job was originally offered and accepted in good faith that Microsoft had a place for a person with his talents and sensibilities.

Maybe the truth is that a company can have great execution at the employee and executive levels and the middle is this mush of neutralizing competition, but it doesn't matter as the middle only matters to the middle, and are reporters to the vision guys what the team accomplished today. It's Dilbert land everywhere.

I'm just scratching my head, though, at what 8 billion for Skype would do that 4 billion for a talented skunkworks team couldn't do in-house.

Let's put another log doubt on the anti-Ballmer fire. Unsexy, old, boring IBM just had a few days with a higher market cap than Microsoft. Could be a fluke, but one would expect the flukes to be a short-term ascendency of a glamour company.

We'll see.
@jk_10,

If Ballmer is (in your words) "unreplacable", then he better plan on living forever....
I love his objection that his commitments contained ?you go to spec review meetings and make valuable comments?. So he didn't want to go to participate in team spec review meetings or make comments of value... That sounds like a really useful team player!
0 Votes
+ -
You missed the point
kirovs@... 26th May 2011
@mgbnetus
Point is- these are meetings where nothing gets done. These are "valuable comments". Been there done that.
@mgbnetus
obviously you've never worked for MS
Windows was their success and their demise. Protecting the cash cow is making them less and less relevant. They've been standing in the way of progress since the late 90s, and now it's blown by them.
@GoPower ... I don't see Microsoft ever going away, just becoming more of a businesses-only company exactly the same as what happened to IBM. Don't think Google or Apple are above that same innevitable outcome either. Apple already experienced it once when they ousted Steve the first time. When he leaves this time, just rinse and repeat.

Honestly, I think Google will always fail in the enterprise which means once they become irrelevant to consumers they will just disappear completely. The evidence of this is in their continually failing attempts to get Google Docs and Gmail into the enterprise.
0 Votes
+ -
Jobs was never Apple's CEO before 1997
WilErz Updated - 26th May 2011
@ GoodThings2Life

Jobs was never Apple's CEO in the 80s, and was a completely hopeless manager in his early days too. He was also technically inept (something that Gil Amelio claimed was still the case in 1997), and Apple probably would have gone under if Markkula (the major early investor in Apple) had let Jobs run the company. Today, Jobs is either a good manager or has acquired the wisdom to leave management to people who are good at it.

On a technical level, the Mac's first period of success was actually under Gassee, who took the complete opposite approach to Jobs. Whilst Jobs had wanted to create a cheap desktop appliance, Gassee turned the Mac platform into a technological market leader. Things started to go pear-shaped for Apple after Gassee was pushed out in 1990 and Spindler tried to compete on price with Windows PCs. The result was that Apple's products lost their technological edge, but were still overpriced compared with products from more efficient Windows PC vendors.

The loss of Steve Jobs would probably harm Apple, particularly in terms of marketing, but Jobs isn't the one who designed the iPod, iPhone and iPad (the last of which he apparently opposed for a long time, before finally being convinced it was a good idea). With the strong or dominant positions of most iOS devices, Apple would probably do fine without Steve Jobs.
@GoPower
Progress has blown by them? Ummmm.... I guess the first question is what planet do you live on?

I don't see anyone saying that kind of thing about Apple for example simply because they don't have a clue about building a gaming console? I don't see anyone saying that about Apple because they haven't taken over the server market?

Its time the Anti Microsoft league twits grow a brain and be reasonable in their point of view. If your saying MS is finished because they are lagging in the smartphone market that progress has blown by them, then your out of your mind. Thats one area out of many and we don't know what the long term prospects for MS is in that market until they actually get a track record. Let us not forget that it wasn't that long ago the iPhone first came out, only after that did the cell smartphone market explode. This isn't a market thats been on the go for 20-30 years and has fully matured and eliminated all but a few.

You might as well say Apple has let progress blow right by them because they still cannot move a serious number of Macs out thee door despite decades of trying.

Admit it, you are just one more MS hater who dreams about the day that will never come.
@Cayble

You use Apple as your comparison and it doesn't hold water. Apple is NOT trying to be all things computing for all people; Microsoft is.
@GoPower
for what reasons?

if you could explain that, maybe most people would not disagree with you on everything Microsoft related.
plain
0 Votes
+ -
NAIVE at best
pacificak Updated - 25th May 2011
What did he think while he joined MS...?? That he will be able to change MS!!?? or, that he will change their outlook towards open source..??

Inefficient..?? HA! Try running a big organization and you will find out every big one has the same "rules of survival". To expect that human beings will be anything other than human beings is NAIVE at best...
Oh! and don't make it sound as though you are above all this.
If you really were you wouldn't have complained about it!
So he couldn't hack it at Microsoft and quit. It seems like he wasn't a right fit at Microsoft to begin with given his open source background where its all about teamwork and somewhat of entrepreneurship. He's not used to having a boss giving him deadlines or demanding stuff in open source, but once your in the corporate world that's how it works. In a competitive world Microsoft has to protect its products and make sure they work, not just release code and say "use at your own risk".
0 Votes
+ -
Ah, you mean like
Economister 25th May 2011
@LoverockDavidson

Vista, on time and ready to go?

You are absolutely priceless sometimes. Which universe do you live in anyway.
@LoverockDavidson obviously you never used Castle or any of the other popular .Net FOSS projects. At least as good as any MS release...
0 Votes
+ -
RE: Can an open-source backer thrive inside Microsoft? This one says no
homeioy1401-24353655183691126463333317805426 10th Nov
gxzycl,good post!

Join the conversation!

Formatting +
BB Codes - Note: HTML is not supported in forums
  • [b] Bold [/b]
  • [i] Italic [/i]
  • [u] Underline [/u]
  • [s] Strikethrough [/s]
  • [q] "Quote" [/q]
  • [ol][*] 1. Ordered List [/ol]
  • [ul][*] · Unordered List [/ul]
  • [pre] Preformat [/pre]
  • [quote] "Blockquote" [/quote]
ie8 fix

The best of ZDNet, delivered

ZDNet Newsletters

Get the best of ZDNet delivered straight to your inbox

Facebook Activity

White Papers, Webcasts, & Resources
ie8 fix