ie8 fix

OOXML vs. ODF: What's happening this week

By | February 25, 2008, 7:56am PST

From February 25 to 29 in Geneva, the next step in the seemingly never-ending show-down over whether Microsoft’s Office Open XML document format should be granted ISO standard status is taking place.

Microsoft is interested in gaining ISO’s approval for OOXML so that it can tout the format as being “open” and “standard-compliant” — two criteria that a growing number of business and government customers are requiring when purchasing software. Many of Microsoft’s competitors have been agitating against Microsoft receiving ISO standards approval for a variety of reasons. Many Microsoft competitors are hoping that failure to gain ISO standardization for Office will give them a way to better chip away at Microsoft’s 90+ percent desktop office-suite marketshare.

The week-long “DIS-29500 Ballot Resolution Meeting” (BRM) won’t culminate with a final vote this week. Insead, the delegates attending the meeting will have until March 29 to vote yes, no or abstain on Microsoft’s bid to get OOXML fast-tracked as an ISO standard.

Here’s a summary of what will/won’t — or perhaps I should say should/shouldn’t — happen this week for those following along at home.

Q: What is the purpose of the BRM?

A: “The meeting is for resolving comments that NBs (national bodies) have submitted (with their votes) on the text being Fast Tracked. This is done, essentially, by the meeting agreeing a set of revisions to the originally submitted DIS 29500 text.” (”ISO/IEC DIS 29500″ is the draft standard for Microsoft’s Office Open XML file formats.)

Q: Why is this BRM necessary?

A: After five months of balloting on whether or not OOXML should be fast-tracked as an international ISO standard, Microsoft’s OOXML standard proposal failed to get approval. Since that time, Microsoft has made a number of modifications in response to thousands of public comments on its proposal. According to ISO, “the comments that accompanied the votes will be discussed at the BRM along with modifications in an endeavour to make it acceptable for publication according to the ISO/IEC criteria.”

Q: Who is attending this week’s ballot-resolution meeting?

A: According to ISO officials, the only people permitted to attend the meeting are “representatives of the 87 NBs (national bodies) that are recorded as voting (either approve, disapprove or abstain) in the 2 September letter ballot, and who remain members of ISO/IEC; a delegation from the submitter (Ecma) ISO/IEC (ITTF) officials and administrators.” The press and the public are not allowed to attend the meeting. According to ISO, 120 participants have registered to attend the meeting.

Q: What’s next?

A: From ISO’s press statement: If (this) week’s BRM leads to a sufficient number of negative votes or abstentions being withdrawn or made positive within the 30-day period after the meeting, ISO/IEC DIS 29500 may proceed to publication as an international standard. Otherwise, the proposal will have failed and this fast-track procedure will be terminated.” Microsoft would have the option of resubmitting OOXML for ISO standards consideration.

Q: The fine print?

A: BRM Convenor Alex Brown reminds “bloggers and commentators” that “properly speaking OOXML is attempting to become an ‘ISO/IEC’ (International Organization for Standardization/International Electrotechnical Commission) standard, not just an ‘ISO’ standard. JTC 1 is the body which carries out dual standardisation for these parent organisations.”

And, as Brown notes on his blog, “In Switzerland, jaywalking is illegal. Let this be symbolic for expected standards of behaviour at the BRM!”

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Topics

Mary Jo has covered the tech industry for more than 25 years for a variety of publications and Web sites, and is a frequent guest on radio, TV and podcasts, speaking about all things Microsoft-related. She is the author of Microsoft 2.0: How Microsoft plans to stay relevant in the post-Gates era (John Wiley & Sons, 2008).

Disclosure

Mary-Jo Foley

Freelance journalist/blogger Mary Jo Foley has nothing to disclose. WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get). I do not own Microsoft stock or stock in any of its partners or competitors. I have no business ventures that are sponsored by/funded by Microsoft or any of its partners or competitors.

Biography

Mary-Jo Foley

Mary Jo Foley has covered the tech industry for 25 years for a variety of publications, including ZDNet, eWeek and Baseline. She has kept close tabs on Microsoft strategy, products and technologies for the past 10 years. In the late 1990s, she penned the award-winning "At The Evil Empire" column for ZDNet, and more recently the Microsoft Watch blog for Ziff Davis.

Got a tip? Send her an email with your rants, rumors, tips and tattles. Confidentiality guaranteed.

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RE: OOXML+vs.+ODF%3A+What%27s+happening+this+week
makrejktt5701-24353692035010016929936514811283 11th Nov
ruwqzb,good post!
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Your headline says much. (ODF vs OOXML)
No_Ax_to_Grind 25th Feb 2008
And as usual the "press" (Mary Jo) would like others to see it that way when in fact it is not. Folks, its just another standard that offers users CHOICE in what they use. Nothing more, nothing less.

The only reason the ODF folks are upset is that they thought they found a way to force MS Office out and they got handed their lunch when they tried. Shrug...
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Challenge again, I DARE YOU TO Respond.
TripleII-21189418044173169409978279405827 25th Feb 2008
I was glad to see Mary Jo's article, I knew you would spew forth your "Anti-Choice" argument. Give me a choice, show me the way. I want to use an OOXML compliant program, can you help me find one? I need it be be compliant though, so please help.

http://talkback.zdnet.com/5208-10535-0.html?forumID=1&threadID=44239&messageID=817846&start=-9959



List ONE, a SINGLE application, anywhere in the world that offers the choice to use OOXML as a standard.

MS doesn't offer that choice.
http://www.techworld.com/storage/features/index.cfm?featureid=3685&pagtype=all
Jones was asked on his blog whether Microsoft would actually commit to conform to an officially standardised OOXML. His response:

?It?s hard for Microsoft to commit to what comes out of Ecma"

It is ALREADY known that MS is not compliant, the standard is not even ratified yet and
http://www.sutor.com/newsite/blog-open/?p=1343
We have proprietary extensions to Microsoft Office Open XML

There you go, put your money where your mouth is, name ONE SINGLE CHOICE any consumer has to use, anywhere in the world, adopt or otherwise use purely standard OOXML. You can't.

The only conclusion since you can't post a SINGLE link showing me there actually is a choice for OOXML is simply that it is the ILLUSION of choice.



TripleII
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your dreaming man
Quebec-french 25th Feb 2008
for all that time so many people have pointed to nim with numerous proof that NO_Ax should be call no BAll
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I know. He won't be back.
TripleII-21189418044173169409978279405827 25th Feb 2008
His argument is invalid, but as I posted here,
http://talkback.zdnet.com/5208-10535-0.html?forumID=1&threadID=44239&messageID=817848&start=-9959

I'll post it as the standard reply to all your disinformative posts on every ODF blog here as they come up.

See, he is a very persistent. grin

TripleII
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Once the standard exists
No_Ax_to_Grind 25th Feb 2008
which it currently does not, Microsoft and a few hundered other vendors will become compliant.

Lets see if I can explain it in simple terms. You don't start building a house before the blue prints are completed.
0 Votes
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So there is NO CHOICE!
TripleII-21189418044173169409978279405827 25th Feb 2008
Thank you, I take back my last post that you are gone. This has nothing to do about choice, it is all about the potential to have a choice, at some vague point in the future. I am glad we got the facts out and that you agree, there are NO COMPLIANT OOXML programs in existence today, so the choice is not available today.

Now that this is out of the way, let's address the odds of what you state which it currently does not, Microsoft and a few hundered other vendors will become compliant[/I

What you say *could* come true, but let's lay the odds when, even as MS is pushing OOXML with all it's might, they publicly state

?It?s hard for Microsoft to commit to what comes out of Ecma"

I think, and many many sources back this up, we will see (potentially, there are still IP questions) a few partially compliant but mutually incompatible implementations of OOXML, and further, I would submit, even less interoperability capability that we have now with the reverse engineered .doc format.

TripleII

P.S. I will leave alone that you have shifted from OOXML is a choice NOW vs it will be in the future. MS has fooled many people into thinking Office2007 is a compliant to the spec program.
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Can you move in to a house before its built?
No_Ax_to_Grind 25th Feb 2008
Would you want a house they began building before the blue prints were done and had to rip out and start over multiple times? I would not.

As to choice, sure there is. Users can CHOOSE to continue using MS Office with the knowledge that at some point in the near future the files will follow the new standard, or they can try and use the limited ODF standard. My bet, the vast majority will continue with MS office. No sense in your crying over that fact.
Should we use a spec that even Microsoft can not implement???? They can not even supply a BETA version that supports it???? What is wrong here????
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Not at all, but a nice try.
No_Ax_to_Grind 25th Feb 2008
MS had a full spec., the ISO asked for revisions, that has been done and passing it as a standard is only a few days away. Whine all ya like but it is what it is.

Be honset (if you can). All this is about is that MS competition thought they had MS on the ropes with the ODF standard and and are now crying to high heaven because MS cut the legs out from under them. NO ONE is stopping ANYONE from choosing which format they want to use. ANd that is what has you and the open source folks all worked up, users can CHOOSE what they want to use and they are not choosing open source. My best advice here is that you learn to suck it up and deal with it.
better have working prototypes. Sure there can be different versions, but, you had better have a working prototype of the final submitted standard.

Imagine the IEEE submitting a wireless standard without even one working prototype or interoperability testing.
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Yes, if you use ODF.
TripleII-21189418044173169409978279405827 25th Feb 2008
You know MS is positioning the OOXML standard as the standard for Office 2007. We know it isn't, that is disingenous at best, dishonest at worst. That aside, ODF was an implemented standard when it was being ratified. The same is true for most standards. IS41 came about to consolidate IN USE solutions. CAMEL came into being to standardize IN USE solutions. ASCII was standardized because it was IN USE.

I honestly can't remember a standard, that wasn't the ratification of an in use solution, submitted by a company, or group of companies for two purposes 1) Make sure that their solution is the one going forward (i.e. don't have to re-invent someone else's wheel) and 2) Open new markets for their products.

OOXML does not meet #1 above, it is NOT MS's current solution, it may never be their compliant solution (they already extended it, before ratification), but are trying to snow the community to preserve #2.

Personally, I hope the ISO mandates 1 (one) working prototype for any new standard that comes down the pipe, as it has been (unwritten) since as long as I can remember.

TripleII
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Nor do you...
storm14k 25th Feb 2008
build a house on one set when you know you plan to tear it down and use another. Either way they are going to have to re-implement the standard in their software so the point is moot.
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And no one has
No_Ax_to_Grind 25th Feb 2008
Microsoft has held off changing the file formats until the standard is done. They have already made a large number of changes per the standards review process.

I suppose they could have done like ODF and submitted a file format with half the features missing, but they decided not to and that is a good thing for users.
And, a DRM that only works for your MS Office documents does NOT count. That is pretty useless.
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Buwahahaha, are you lsot?
No_Ax_to_Grind 25th Feb 2008
"And, a DRM that only works for your MS Office documents does NOT count."

Buwahahahahahaha, and here I thought we were talking about formats for Office documents (any office suite). You do understand that ODF backers can use OOXML right? I sure hope so because ODF won't even be a foot note in history 2 years from now. Guess that is why all the major players like Google, IBM, Sun, etc. are supporting OOXML or have plans to do so.

I am curious though, if you didn't think this was about document formats what did you think it was about?
Come on, give us just 5 specific examples. MS has been unable to give any.

And, MS has DRM for documents baked into thier office suite. I agree that has nothing to do with document formats. What were they thinking???
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And again I say...
storm14k 25th Feb 2008
Why would they build one format that the plan on changing if another is accepted. Unless you're saying they will not use the format if ISO doesn't accept it. So the the goal is not to be open as they claim since they can do this without ISO. They would have had a much better chance with ISO had they actually USED the format and opened it up to everyone else to use. It would have become a standard by natural selection and ISO would have been a formality. They put the cart before the horse. Or maybe they did open it up and no one saw it as a viable option. Shrugs....
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They put the cart before the horse
Ole Man 25th Feb 2008
Sorry, that wasn't a horse. More like a
donkey, and the cart looked more like a
wheelbarrow.

The Microsoft and the Linux were carrying a
load of bricks by the handles on a litter.
The Linux had an idea to make his work
easier. He put a wheel between the handles
on his end of the litter. Thus was born a
wheelbarrow. The Microsoft is still pushing
the bricks around by the handles on his
wheelbarrow.

The poor Microsoft can't distinguish the
difference between how and what, so they can
never understand why what does not determine
how what can be done, while how determines
what can be done with not only what, but
anything. They will spend the remainder of
their days trying to figure out how to make
what determine how what will work with
anything, when all they had to do was use
how to start with, then they wouldn't have
to worry about how what works.
having build just one to see if is a good design and actually does not fall down.

How hard could it be for MS to supply even a BETA supporting OOXML??? Are they that stupid???
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Only if you build row houses all the same
No_Ax_to_Grind 25th Feb 2008
Guess what? Most don't want them.

Oh, by the way, why hasn't Open Office used all the features of ODF? Why no beta for it? Are they that stupid?
The GUI for each one can be different, but files written need to comply to the standard.

And, OpenOffice DOES support nearly all if not all of the standard. The important thing is the EVERY file written by OpenOffice is ODF compliant. MS Office does NOT write OOXML compliant files. Whether they use EVERY single feature of OOXML somewhere, somehow is another question. OOXML being so complicated, I kinda doubt it.
Standards are many, but there is just one Inch, metre, gram, etc. standard.
That's why it is a stamdard.
Or what about a brand new inch that is 26mm instaead of 25.4.
OOL! everyone. It looks like another Microsoft Morning Show Tate Fonda and Hollister Bean; bringing in this chill in the morrow. Can two extended pages of OOLXML rendering perfection master the continued use of 9ex over a 10x video card ? Let's ask the unemployed Pepe "the Taco Bell Stunt double"," Okay, Pepe how does the Fox jump that monster truck ? "Pastrami; Pepe says Pastrana. Okay wrong answer: for better results I'll keep using my Genuine Microsoft Products and enjoy the eminities. This Adobe Oxygen is the only plumber's dream I have to hose into my CPU. I guess they have cleaner air coming soon as well.

Answer: saving vintage 98SE circa programs has really been a blessing in the fun I have with discovering Vista and shining my Aisraeli oozie for the Predator Team to lose the 'drip' in Shanghai; happy jc day everyone.
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But your post says nothing
storm14k 25th Feb 2008
Users HAVE a choice as it is right now if they aren't concerned about interoperability. The concern here is having a company with a history of breaking propose and international standard.

I can agree with you that there probably shouldn't be a war of the standards. The ODF and FOSS communities should concentrate on standards and software with better features and position themselves. Governments are starting to avoid MS lock-in and software companies are starting to realize that relying on an MS platform is basically handing money to the enemy. Either alternative OSes will continue to rise or MS will realize that trying to compete with everybody leaves you few customers.
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Interoprability?
No_Ax_to_Grind 25th Feb 2008
Hmmm, so if 999 people use "A" and one person uses "B", who do you think needs to change to be compliant with the others?

Sorry, but the tail doesn't wag the dog.
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Last time I checked
storm14k 25th Feb 2008
The FOSS programs have gone overboard to implement Microsoft's "standards". But what does that have to do with the discussion? The question is not who should change. The question is whether a truly open standard can be adopted. But apparently you are in denial of what has been asked of you in another post. 999 people don't use A (aka OOXML). ZERO people use it because there are no products using it while ODF has products out and a user base. Office could make use of both without a problem and there'd be no discussion.

Sorry but your post still says nothing.
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Yes, if Microsoft was interested in supporting something like NotePad ODF could be used, but Office has far to many features for ODF to support. Example, ODF has no Information Rights Management capability. And no, we are not talking about simple encryption. With Office I can create a document that can NOT be opened until a set time, can only be opened on an approved PC, can NOT be printed, and will die at a given time I set.

When would someone (like a government office) want this capability? Hmmm, bidding quickly comes to mind. I can submit a bid on a government contract and know it can't be opened early, it can't be opened on my competitiors machine if they manage to snag a copy, and it dies with a given date. Exactly what is needed.
MS has been unable to name anything that can not be represented with ODF

And, ODF is extensible, and rights management could be added, though, a solution only for office documents is a very poor solution. You want to be able to include ALL file formats you use in ONE repository.
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Correct, but the format doesn't meet the needs
No_Ax_to_Grind 25th Feb 2008
It really is that simple. Yes, I keep hearing about how ODF will be expaned upon *someday* with the latest guess placing it in the year 2010. Believe it or not, lots of folks want (and have) those capabilities now, not *someday*.
There is not rocket science in specifying font, margins, indent, spacing, etc. MS keeps making vague comments about things that ODF might not be able to do, but they have never specifically given even ONE example.
0 Votes
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As usual...
considering that you want a solution for all document types, NOT just office documents. And, DRM could VERY easily be added to ODF if people wanted it, but there is little evidence that people want a solution tied to only one document type.

So try a REAL problem with ODF, like some document feature that can not be represented. I think if there were any major things that ODF could not represent, MS would have named them.
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Lame? Not to business and governments it isn't
No_Ax_to_Grind 25th Feb 2008
In fact it was the most requested feature in the MS Office Suite. I know its hard to grasp when the most important document you have ever created was bad poetry, but business WANTS secure documents.
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ODF can add features?
No_Ax_to_Grind 25th Feb 2008
Oh I suppose that *someday* it could. Tell me, how is the work for the handicapped folks coming with ODF? Is it done yet? Does it come any where close to matching Microsoft's efforts? Hmmm, I see...
be easily added if there was demand. But, most people are not that stupid. A repository should work with all file types - not just office documents.
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If its open source...
CreepinJesus 26th Feb 2008
"And, ODF is extensible, and rights management could be added"

...by a bunch of amateurs who just made the ODF format in their spare time. Like most open-source things, if you want it done properly, get the MS-equivalent.
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You are exposing yourself....
storm14k 25th Feb 2008
I don't think you have a clue as to what you are talking about and it shows. One of those O's in OOXML stands for OPEN. They could have extended ODF to support the feature. They could have approached the ODF group and asked them to support this feature. Or ODF could look at the OOXML spec and implement the feature. The idea that you CAN'T implement this in one or the other suggests that it may not be and OPEN feature and would make the complaints about accepting OOXML as a standard warranted. If its truly open then their IRM is no secret.

Now we all know that FOSS projects routinely take given knowledge of MS software and implement it for interoperability. So it seems to me that not everything about the standard is going to be open since its not yet implemented. The point is to have a standard that all software makers can use. It doesn't matter if its ODF, OOXML or FUXML. The question is whether the intent of OOXML matches the interoperability goal.
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arguing with an ax-head
Ole Man 25th Feb 2008
is about as productive as beating your head
against a brick wall..... and just about as
much fun, I would imagine. Never tried the
latter, but I have the former.

There was an old song..... "Talking To The
Wall"........
0 Votes
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Same as arguing with you Old Man or maybe
transposeIT 26th Feb 2008
in your case it is worse...
0 Votes
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arguing with you Old Man?
Ole Man 26th Feb 2008
You can't argue with me! I simply state the
facts, then watch the respondents spout
their lack of knowledge.
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you don't need those fancy features
Linux Geek 25th Feb 2008
ODF is just fine the way it is!
You don't have to blend OS functionality into a document.
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When ODF can't meet it then reduce your
transposeIT 26th Feb 2008
expectations. Pretty lame way of addressing the situation.
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Reducing expectations?
storm14k 26th Feb 2008
Well it works in Iraq and MS doesn't have a problem with it....
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More FUD
TripleII-21189418044173169409978279405827 25th Feb 2008
Please state a feature of Office that OO lacks? I hear this, and when challenged, people don't say it. I have yet to get any MS document, xls or PPT that just didn't work in OO. Once in a while a font is wrong or a table overlaps the edge of a page (like it does with different version of MS), but that is now the exception.

I work in business, with many many customers, and it just doesn't happen. Not that it would matter, but I can post links where others refute the FUD that MS could not use ODF if they wanted to. They don't want to because it means CONSOLIDATING multiple kludges of doing the same elements in multiple different ways over the years. Take tables. There are clear cut, defined ways to use tables, and nested tables in OO. There are 9 documented ways to represent a table in OOXML.

TripleII
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And how many customers can that be?
transposeIT 26th Feb 2008
Probably can count with the fingers on my hand.
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Insecurity
fde101 26th Feb 2008
You're an idiot if you are actually fooled into thinking that M$'s formats can pull this off.

A good encryption system could indeed limit the audience, but not the clock.

In order to limit the timeframe in which the document can be opened, the software application must honor the information stored in the document. If the standard is opened (as M$ is trying to do), then software implementing the standard could just as easily ignore the information, in which case the restrictions become worthless, and the "security" imposed by these timeframes very quickly disappears.

This would also be one more reason not to use M$ software: since their software would honor the restrictions, they would be able to open fewer of their own documents than someone else's implementation could...
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99 out of 100 used the .doc, .xls etc. formats of Office until the newest .dox formats were put out by the latest and greatest versions. M$ doesn't even make it's own software compatible w/ it's own software! What a maroon...
EVERYONE in their area use ODF ?
That IS what you are saying, is it not ?
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Not quite
fde101 26th Feb 2008
Forcing M$ office out would be awesome, but failing that, a similarly useful situation would be to force them to comply with real standards, something they have never been good at doing.
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Deary Mary Jo

Please correct the title. This has nothing to do with ODF. The title looks like you are so biased.
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RE: OOXML+vs.+ODF%3A+What%27s+happening+this+week
makrejktt5701-24353692035010016929936514811283 11th Nov
ruwqzb,good post!

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