Tragedy: Waiting for the laughter to start

Tragedy: Waiting for the laughter to start

Summary: Usually I ignore idiotic comment but sometimes the idiocy is so apropos that the petty response is the right response - here because the writer is normally sane but produced a stunning indictment of his own position.

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The strangest response to last week's blog wasn't Scotth's contention that you can buy a zOS machine for $33K - you can, and for only another couple of hundred thousand you can license enough software to emulate a 9370 on it.

No, the hands down winner for tragi-comedy was this, from "civikminded":

RE: Forces of nature
@Roger Ramjet

You can run Windoze through DumbRays.

Sure.. what do you need on the back end? VMWare ESX. Wait.. or VirtualBox (I'll go on with this post when the laughter dies down)

All your 'Autonomics' can be achieved on Windows with Virtual Desktop Broker apps that have been available for 5-6 years. In fact with VMWare View, I can serve out thousands of desktops from a single OS image. No, not thousands of copies of a single OS image. 1 single OS image.

Here's a person whose response to the proposition that DP and Wintel have effectively merged to perpetuate the worst of both as the new standard, is to argue that: "I can serve out thousands of desktops from a single OS image. No, not thousands of copies of a single OS image. 1 single OS image. "

Notice the use of "I" in his claim? He can run thousands of virtual PCs from ONE OS image - provided the servers silently boot Unix to run Windows OSes as applications, the clients are PCs running Windows OSes, only some specially certified applications are allowed; and users? They get to put up and shut up.

I don't think he could have done better had he intended to demonstrate that today's Windows data centers tend to reproduce the worst features of IBM's 1970s mainframe world - and had he wanted to show that the people defending this nonsense often understand neither their own technology nor anyone else's; well, I doubt he could have improved on this either.

So what's going on? As regular readers know I think Festinger made a lot of sense, and what he'd say in this situation is clear: the more arrogant and absurd responses like these get, the clearer it should be that the people involved know they're wrong but are desperately hoping that enough shouting will, like the proverbial trillion monkeys typing out King Lear, eventually reveal something justifying what they're doing to their users and employers.

Topics: Operating Systems, Software, Windows

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  • Classy

    I know I'm right when you choose to not address my questions in the comments, but rather stand on your bully pulpit instead.

    I'll ask my question again, that you chose to ignore.

    So lets say I'm deploying a SunRay solution. What efficiencies will I gain by deploying a Solaris client OS infrastructure vs. another OS? Why will the Solaris solution yeild a lower TCO? You obviously don't have the answers.

    When the rubber hits the road you have nothing but 'Sound and Fury Signifying Nothing' as TonyMCS puts it.

    At least Rodger makes a weak attempt to justify such a solution with vague talk around 'autonomics.'
    civikminded
    • Next week

      The issue over the last few weeks has not been about Solaris or TCO - it has been about the evolution of DP vs Science based computing and the co-option (!) of wintel on the DP side.

      In none of those blog entries do I push Solaris or mention TCO.

      However, Solaris is the leading Unix and the Sun Ray is the best currently available smart display for corporate use, so next week I'll compare a few of the costs of meeting user needs using science based tools to the cost of doing it your way.
      murph_z
      • RE: Tragedy: Waiting for the laughter to start

        @murph_z <br><br>Murph, you accuse me of "not knowing my technology, or anyone else's" Wow, pot... let me introduce you to black kettle.<br><br><i>...provided the servers silently boot Unix to run Windows OSes as applications, the clients are PCs running Windows OSes</i><br><br>ESX and more dramatically, ESXi are bare metal OSs that use a Linux kernel to interface with the hypervisor layer. So we'll say you are half right when you contend they 'boot UNIX' <br><br><i>to run Windows OSes as applications</i> <br><br>Windows sure, or Linux, or Solaris. Whatever. We'll give you 33% on that one.<br><br><i>only some specially certified applications are allowed</i><br><br>Now this is just totally wrong. Unless an app depends on specific hardware 99 times out of 100, it'll virtualize fine. <br><br><i>the clients are PCs running Windows OSes</i><br><br>bzzzt. Wrong again. You CAN do this if you like. Or you can use terminals by Wyse or even GASP - SUNRAYS! Or you can use a open sourced client app to access from Linux, Windows, MacOSX. <a href="http://code.google.com/p/vmware-view-open-client/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://code.google.com/p/vmware-view-open-client/</a>. We'll give you 10% on that one.<br><br><i>and users? They get to put up and shut up.</i><br><br>I dunno.. users might like to work on their virtual desktop on a SunRay at work, then go home and be able to access the same desktop through an SSL tunnel using their home PC. I'll bet this fulfills the needs of most users who would ordinarily be issued a laptop. <br><br>Meanwhile, you don't even seem to realize that Oracle's OWN SOLUTION for virtual desktops uses HyperV or ESX or Virtual Box as its backend.
        civikminded
      • RE: Tragedy: Waiting for the laughter to start

        @murph_z
        We aren't talking about Science based computing... we are talking business based computing. BIG difference... Just as companies didn't want to put any money in developing apps on mainframes in the 90s... because of higher costs... companies don't want to put any money in developing apps on Ultrasparc because of higher costs. Solaris on Ultrasparcs have become legacy systems. Until they(SUN, now Oracle) address the cost factor, their market share will continue to dwindle, no matter what fancy new features are added to Solaris... no matter what happens to Sparc/Sun Ray. This is no longer the 90s... Solaris/Ultrasparc is no longer the low cost option, anymore.
        scotth_z
      • RE: Tragedy: Waiting for the laughter to start

        @murph_z <br><br>Hallo, I do remember - time ago - that you were counting on the arrival of new UltraSparc SMT processors, when the Sun could still cast some shadows on other technologies.<br>This is no more, and ZFS is the last jewel on Ellison's crown if I am not wrong.<br><br>Reading the Phoronix benchmarks - made on desktop machines, of course - I see ZFS does not offer a superior performance today, as compared to EXT4 or some Brtfs configs.<br>Let me repeat: benchmarking desktop configurations on desktops PCs. There is no mention of enterprise/corporate deployments and the tests are nowhere intended for such a market<br><br>How do you see the future and the resilience of the ZFS technology in more modest computing needs?<br><br>And, seeing the demise of OpenSolaris (which made a very good HTPC thing from the point of view of CPU utilization, anyway) do you think the FreeBSD and NetBSD ports of ZFS will be able to cater for its advantages?<br><br>Cheers
        rikkytikkytavi@...
    • So have you learned your lesson?

      @civikminded
      I can tell a Murphy article right from the home page:
      [i]Usually I ignore idiotic comment but sometimes the idiocy is so apropos that the petty response is the right response[/i]

      I knew the instant that I saw it that this was Murphy. While I don't agree with what many of the bloggers here write, only Murphy has this deep seated anger at anyone who doesn't think exactly like him. That anger and spitefulness always comes out in the first 2 sentences which is why Murphy blogs are easy to spot from the home page.

      So have you learned your lesson? It is best not to engage people as infantile as Murphy in logical conversation. You won't win because, as you correctly pointed out, he has the bully pulpit. The good news is that no one here takes him seriously so even though you lose to Murphy, remember, you are only losing to him on a rarely read blog. My suggestion: shake your head at the weekly train wreck he spews from his keyboard and move on. It isn't worth it.

      To ZDNet: Murphy and his blog represent [b]you[/b]. Are you sure that CBS appreciates it when you belittle CBS consumers and use words like "idiotic" to describe your readership? Please think about whether or not Murphy is the type of person you would want representing you.
      NonZealot
    • That line is from MacBeth...

      @civikminded
      Well, I will admit this subject between you and Paul Murphy is way over my heard. If I were playing baseball my position would be "Left Out".

      Anyway, if you must attribute that phase to TonyMCS do so however, he took it from Shakespeare's MacBeth, Act 5 Scene 5:
      ...The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
      Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
      That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
      And then is heard no more: it is a tale
      Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
      Signifying nothing...

      For what is is worth, nothing, thought I would throw that in.
      BubbaJones_
    • RE: Tragedy: Waiting for the laughter to start

      @civikminded

      Let's attribute that to Shakespeare with the tragedy being Macbeth. The full quote begins "A tale told by an idiot", but I've never thought Rudy was an idiot, just sadly misguided ;-)
      tonymcs@...
      • RE: Tragedy: Waiting for the laughter to start

        @tonymcs@...

        Yes I know that its Shakespeare. I was attributing it to you in this context. I didn't think you came up with it.
        civikminded
    • RE: Tragedy: Waiting for the laughter to start

      @civikminded <br><br>Ok. it's raining and I have nothing to do, let me try this game in the hypothetical world of "The Good Things".<br><br>I imagine that:<br><br>IF you manage to standardize all word processing operation on ODF with a good Word/Excell/Access driver <br><br>IF you manage to find and acceptable UI to be used by all employees WITHOUT pointing a gun at their neck<br><br>IF you slap Opera/Chromium/Firefox onto their monitors when they push the botton<br><br>... MAYBE a big Solaris 10 machine in the basement with each mission-critical applications running from a container (from within a Zone) is better/cheaper/safer than the VMWare alternative.<br><br>Please you expert(s) contend with actual examples or other kind of resources, which would mean "they did this with that and saved xxx bucks".<br><br>Regards

      PS And, please, but really PLEASE, find some donors to pay for developers to fix the SILO bugs on UltraSparc!!!
      rikkytikkytavi@...
    • RE: Tragedy: Waiting for the laughter to start

      @civikminded <br><br>Ok. it's raining and I have nothing to do, let me try this game in the hypothetical world of "The Good Things".<br><br>I imagine that:<br><br>IF you manage to standardize all word processing operation on ODF with a good Word/Excell/Access driver <br><br>IF you manage to find and acceptable UI to be used by all employees WITHOUT pointing a gun at their neck<br><br>IF you slap Opera/Chromium/Firefox onto their monitors when they push the botton<br><br>... MAYBE a big Solaris 10 machine in the basement with each mission-critical applications running from a container (from within a Zone) is better/cheaper/safer than the VMWare alternative.<br><br>Please you experts contend with actual examples or other kind of resources, which would mean "they did this with that and saved xxx bucks".<br><br>Regards<br><br>And, please, but really PLEASE, find some donors to pay for developers to fix the SILO bugs on UltraSparc!!!
      rikkytikkytavi@...
  • I am going to cut off my RSS feed

    I had reasonably good amount of "respect" for ZDnet so I subscribed to the blog feed. Right from the day 1, I found quality of the blogs utterly disappointing, but this one is the final straw. So now bloggers are getting paid for blogging...oh wait a minute...no,they are getting paid for vicious attack on their readers. <sarcasm> It's really very mature to single out a reader and try to "publicly shame" him/her.</end of sarcasm>.
    anra
    • RE: Tragedy: Waiting for the laughter to start

      @anra

      I appreciate the support but I'm a big boy. And to be fair I've been trying to publicly shame Murph for years, so I'll wear this like a badge of honor ;)
      civikminded
      • RE: Tragedy: Waiting for the laughter to start

        @civikminded <br><br>Gee he mentioned me once too!!!!!<br><br>You have to realise that Rudy (Murph) lives in a museum without Windows. This blog is his only method of communication to the outside. In fact, many have suggested he's so isolated that it may as well be a parallel universe.<br><br>Out in the real world his hated Object Oriented Programming has become default, his hardware vendors are disappearing and his favourite 20C OS has been showing its age for some years now.<br><br>Cognitive dissonance is killing him. On the one hand he KNOWS that *nix is perfect, Sun is the only solution and a survival shelter is required. BUT the real world shows that their is only one global OS, no-one is interested in his quaint hardware and the sky didn't fall in when Obama got elected (although why a Canadian cares, I have no idea).<br><br>As a consultant evangelist, Rudy is bringing the good word to all that computing reached its peak in the 1990s and any attempt to improve is doomed to failure. I've asked him time and time again to give us a real example of him saving a company from Windows, but to no avail.<br><br>Perhaps some of Rudy's greatful clients could come forward and tell us how their back to the future ride went.
        tonymcs@...
  • sorrow sweet sweet sorrow;

    how it begs for laughter, for mirth, for the imitable spirit that could make it not so. But alas the folly of the wise, and the ignorance of the stupid conspire to wrest the joy of life from the very bosom that spawned it, and in doing so make us all so much less than we are......
    sparkle farkle
  • RE: Tragedy: Waiting for the laughter to start

    Murphy...
    It's not the 90s anymore... Sun is no longer the leading hardware vendor... They are a distant 4th now... Solaris is no longer the leading selling UNIX... not even counting Linux, the rising OS.
    You can't even get the computing model of mainframes right. Here is a hint... IBM introduced two silos of pricing with the z-series back in 2000, your understanding of mainframe pricing is from the 80s/90s. Even in the 90s mainframes were scalable in costs, just at a higher pricing model compared to UNIX systems, which is why the mainframe market share shrunk dramatically.

    But it is now the 21st century, IBM z-series now have two independent pricing stacks, each with their own separate hardware pricing... their own separate licensing... Both stacks are independently scalable... both in capabilities and PRICING...
    What you and Sun management didn't figure out over the last decade is that you are NO LONGER competing against the higher price stack of z/os, General Purpose engines and the software pricing stack associated with GP engines... but you are competing against Linux on z, the speciality engines and the well priced licensing cost associated with Linux.
    With several advantages on top of that...
    no additional hardware contracts.. for existing mainframe customers..
    no additional electrician costs for existing mainframe customers...
    and far faster intranet connections and fully scalable with virtual switch technology...(another thing the SUN people didn't figure out)
    and being able to run hundreds of images via virtualization, all sharing the same software licensing.

    It appears to me that your failure to even understand what Solaris/Sparc is NOW competing against... is why you have such false understanding of the computing industry... While x86 systems have been chewing up Sparc equipment on the low end because of price... you/they didn't understand what they were even competing against at the high end either. This ignorance is why Sun went from 33% of the hardware revenue share in 1999.. to 8% today... Without understanding what Oracle is now facing, they have no chance of rebounding this.

    Do you honestly think it is a 'marketing' issue.... that drove Sun out... The CIO/IT director types... aren't stupid... they can see and extrapolate costs far better than you can or ever could for each of their individual shops. They flocked to Linux on z.. while abandoning Sun.

    What do you think Murph... did the thousands who jumped on linux on z all take stupid pills or are you the one who can't figure the cost factor that is happening here? Just remember that the CIO/IT director types who are flocking are pretty much the same sort of people who jumped on the Sun bandwagon in the 90s.

    Just remember that IBM introduced a new GENERATION(not just a new model) of mainframes... Solaris/Ultrasparcs will very soon be competing against x86 blades as part of the new mainframe.
    scotth_z
  • The laughter has started.

    The tragedy is that Mr. Murphy has not realized that the laughter is directed at him, not with him.

    :|
    Tim Cook
  • Trapped in a museum

    Duplicate post.

    Time for ZDNet to upgrade to Windows and get some decent posting software.
    tonymcs@...
    • I'm with you there, see all that whitespace on the right?

      this new format is .....new but not that nice.

      @tonymcs@...
      sparkle farkle
  • You guys all suk

    Instead of offering intellectual inspiration or showing some debating skill - you resort to name calling and grandstanding. It's not easy posting your thoughts for all to read - and comment on. If you wanted to, you could write a nice article and Murph would even volunteer to post it here - I know, I've done it a few times now. He can be very accommodating to ideas that challenge his own. Like a good debater, he attacks the other people's IDEAS and not their character.

    I see these last few blog entries as Murph trying to educate us to 2 schools of thought on IT and their origins. Anyone with the attitude that "history is boring" will of course, not be very much interested in what Murph has to say. But I find it very interesting as I hadn't thought about it until Murph brought it up. I tend to agree with his reasoning as I grew up witnessing some of these trends (BSD Unix a case in point).

    I suppose that younger readers might not have enough of the background story to fully understand where Murph is coming from. What I don't understand is the older readers here are acting quite juvenile. I wonder what they teach their kids about name calling - "That kid looks fat - go over there son and berate him!". If you have a different opinion than Murph, by all means post it. If you just want to vent on Murph - do it verbally.
    Roger Ramjet