Linux kernel developers are getting tougher on Nvidia and a few other holdouts that have refused to release open source drivers.
More than 100 Linux kernel developers – including top developer Andrew Morton – issued a letter today condemning closed source modules or drivers for Linux to be “harmful and undesirable. ” The group cites filesystems and security add ons as modules but clearly it’s the driver vendors driving them mad.
“We have repeatedly found them to be detrimental to Linux users, businesses and the greater Linux ecosystem,” the letter stated. “Such modules negate the openness, stability, flexibility and maintainability of the Linux development model and shut their users off from the expertise of the Linux community.”
The letter is a not so veiled swipe at Nvidia, manufacturer of the world’s best selling graphics cards. To date, two of the three leading graphics card suppliers – Intel and ATI – have produced open source drivers, while Nvidia has not.
It is no doubt obvious that Linux – and indeed any modern operating system – must support a high end, seamless graphical experience on the desktop to survive and thrive.In a recent essay, dubbed Linux Graphics: A Tale of Three Drivers, Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board Chair James Bottomley pointed the finger at NVidia for sticking with its binary driver model.
He maintains that Nvidia’s holdout is a big problem for the Linux desktop because its harder to get fixes for binary drivers and so when new and inexperienced Linux users run into problems, they often ascribe the problem to Linux—not the binary driver. NVidia was not available for e-mail comment as of this writing.
Intel has been producing one source drivers for its graphics cards and chipsets for many years. In 2007, after its acquisition by AMD, No. 3 card supplier ATI acquiesced and contracted with Novell to produce the open source driver, known as radeonhd. X.org also produced a rival driver and earlier this year ATI hired one of the X.org developers to oversee its open source effort.
That’s all well and good, but ATI only has about one fifth share of the graphics card market.
Intel and Nvidia equally own 75 percent of the market – and NVidia is not budging.
“Nvidia, at the time of this writing, is still firmly in the Binary Only camp,” James Bottomley wrote, suggesting this is one factor hindering adoption of the Linux desktop. “Since most experienced Linux users know either to pick Intel [or another card], most of the reported [problems] are coming from less experienced or even novice users. These users aren’t likely to continue their experiment with Linux; nor will they recommend it to their friends. In fact, they’ve probably turned off Linux for a considerable period of time, if not for life.”
He added that binary drivers have a drag effect on the overall ecosystem . “Fedora was under enormous pressure not to release Fedora 9 until there was a solution that allowed it to run with the Nvidia binary driver. “
Bottomley acknowledged that there is a project underway called Nouveau to reverse engineer an open source driver for Nvidia cards but he urged Nvidia to consider the upside of doing open source drivers. “The most commonly touted feature of the new generation of mobile devices is graphics and multimedia, so anyone with a graphics device strategy that supports Linux seamlessly… is nicely positioned to capitalize on an emerging market.” The Linux Foundation maintains the vast majority of vendors have released one source drivers and only a few holdouts remain.
Linux and Open Source
Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols & Paula RooneyDevelopers criticize Nvidia, other holdouts for hindering Linux desktop
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Paula Rooney is a Boston-based writer who has followed the tech industry for almost two decades.
Disclosure
Paula Rooney
Paula Rooney owns no stock in the companies that she covers. She holds a 401K that is managed by Morgan Stanley.
Biography
Paula Rooney
Paula Rooney has covered the software and technology industry for more than 20 years, starting with semiconductor design and mini-computer systems at EDN News and later focused on PC software companies including Microsoft, Lotus, Oracle, Red Hat, Novell and other open source and commercial software companies for CRN and PCWeek. She received a silver award from the American Society of Business Publication Editors in 2005 for her profile on Linus Torvalds and edited and co-authored "Partnering With Microsoft," a book about Microsoft's channel published by CMP Publishing in 2004. Rooney graduated from the Columbia University Graduate School of Journalism in 1997. In her off time, she enjoys scuba diving, sailing, sun worshipping, running, reading, surfing (the net) and hanging out with her family. She resides on the shores of Scituate, Massachusetts.
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So the Linux community feels that Nvidia should be beholden to them?
Is it wrong for a company to want to protect it's IP?
I dislike when beliefs are projected onto others. If you want your software to be open then do so. If you want all software to be open then write software that beats the brakes off anything proprietary and make it open. But don't try to tell everyone else that their software has to be open.
Do we want more "inexperienced users" to start using Linux? Most will say "Who cares?"
I believe Linux is an excellent operating system that is stable, robust and powerful. I think "inexperienced users" should use it for those reasons.
The thing is, if the Linux development community starts making compromises that jeopardize the security and stability of the OS just to entice more "inexperienced users" to use Linux, then we haven't gained anything.
All of the reasons to use Linux will go away and we haven't progressed. Linux has gained market share due to it's quality, stability and performance. Linux will continue to improve and continue gain market share because of these reasons.
Eventually, a free market will change to embrace a better product. There is no reason to compromise just for short term acceptance gains.
You've obviously never used NVidia's Linux drivers. Frankly, they suck. They leak memory so badly that after a day or two, the whole system locks up if you don't restart the graphics; they can't be suspended and resumed, they're buggy in other ways, and so on.
With source for the drivers, NVidia would have the fixes in hand already without having to allocate staff.
I believe the idea that third party source must be open defeats the benefits of Linux as a platform for vendors. The fact that Linux itself is open gives vendors a big development advantage over an MS platform. But if you're saying that even with wide open source that you need to have the Linux community look at your code to make it work right then it would mean that this advantage doesn't really exist. I don't believe the community needs to see the code. I believe Nvidia needs to throw more support into this area.
Others have -- it's a known bug (you can look it up.) I had to regularly ssh into $HERSELF's system to restart X until the most recent driver update.
I haven't had a Nvidia laptop to play with suspend and resume but I've always had suspend and hibernate issues with any OS...maybe thats just my bad luck.
I've been running Intel and ATI drivers for years and both hibernate and suspend Just Plain Work. No problems.
Nvidia? Don't even try. They're on the driver blacklist.
I believe the idea that third party source must be open defeats the benefits of Linux as a platform for vendors. The fact that Linux itself is open gives vendors a big development advantage over an MS platform. But if you're saying that even with wide open source that you need to have the Linux community look at your code to make it work right then it would mean that this advantage doesn't really exist. I don't believe the community needs to see the code. I believe Nvidia needs to throw more support into this area.
There are major benefits to the manufacturer for being open. (Not least being that they don't have to "throw more support into" Linux.) However, it's not mandatory; they can of course spend a bunch of money instead. Or they can ignore the Linux market, after all. For now, I'll reciprocate by buying AMD.
I'll give the hibernate another try on this laptop. The problems on this one could have come from the samba mount issue I was having.
Besides the fact that most hardware vendors don't want to maintain drivers for Windows, MacOS, FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, BeOS, HURD, Xen, Linux, Solaris, etc. (as well as any other new platforms that arise)
Even if they wanted to do so, whether or not they can write good quality drivers is questionable. Just look at the mess NVidia made in Vista!
The hardware vendors are being asked to make good, solid interface documentation, and make it available without NDAs or other restrictions. The drivers will not only be written, but they'll probably be shipped with the operating systems, and for the most part, just work.
Companies that specialize in PC hardware should stick to the hardware, and let the software specialists write the software.
And, should they elect to have open source drivers for Linux, they're free to participate in the process of maintenance and updating of those drivers as Intel and ATI do now.
The reality is that fixes are faster and more complete in the open source drivers than they were when they were closed and they simply work better.
Unlike some others I haven't had the problems others are talking about with NVidia drivers but I do see the maintainer's point.
Nor does having an open source driver threaten NVidia's intellectual property.
ttfn
John
Small difference, Nvidia provides drivers for Linux, Solaris, FreeBSD and Windows. Broadcom provides them only for Windows.
I've personally got nothing against binary drivers, the problem I find is when Linux developers whine over them - and why do they whine? because they (the Linux developers) don't want to develop a stable driver API/ABI. To develop a stable API/ABI would require a mountain of paper work and design, something Linux developers never want to do. They just want to throw code at a problem and hope that it fixes the problem.
Maybe Linux developers should be concerned about their own code quality instead of complaining about Nvidia.
Code quality is why Linux doesn't have a kernel ABI.
I've personally got nothing against binary drivers, the problem I find is when Linux developers whine over them - and why do they whine? because they (the Linux developers) don't want to develop a stable driver API/ABI. To develop a stable API/ABI would require a mountain of paper work and design, something Linux developers never want to do. They just want to throw code at a problem and hope that it fixes the problem.
That's a FAQ, so there's no need to make up explanations such as the above.
However, quite a few companies ship binary drivers with "wrappers" to match them up to the current kernel's ABI; VMWare being a good example -- and their custom-interface requirements are much more demanding than NVidia's.
When that happens, then open drivers will become available.
Just look at Nvidia and Solaris - do you see them having to use special shims and work arounds? of course not, because Solaris has a stable driver API which hardware companies can write their code against.
There are good reasons for the Linux kernel not to nail down a driver API now and forever. They are the same reasons the API changed from XP to Vista. Kernel's change, requirements change.
The reason for open sourcing a driver is so that there's little or no reason for NVidia to have to make changes every time requirements of the target OS change.
It's a legitimate trade off. It makes life easier for the kernel maintainers and for NVidia and it improves the quality of the end product.
Everyone, particularly NVidia, wins.
ttfn
John
I also loved the fact they were upset that bad drivers were making all of Linux look bad. That's true with EVERY operating system. One of Vista's biggest stability problems was the crappy drivers, NVidia being the worst offender.
He means problems like the old windows 98 crash? Was it back in 1998 ?
http://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9804/20/gates.comdex/
That's progress ! I 've never heard a Linux person say that this MS-crash wasn't actually Windows fault but a bad driver ! Seems that now they finally got it !
So, which exactly is the difference between Windows and Linux stability anyway ? I guess it's located on the fact that Linux does not use closed-source drivers, but INTENTIONALLY ONLY open-source ones !
Hehe, in that way even the old Win98 would be stable!
Wouldn't it ?
So why don't they write their drivers on their own ?
They always did everything on their own ("don't trust anyone" kind of stuff), why change that now ?
Why forcing NVidia to write drivers for them ?
What NVidia owes them anyway ?
Or why don't they pay a few dollars to NVidia and I'm sure that they 'll write a nice open-source driver for them !
Am I wrong ?
They always did everything on their own ("don't trust anyone" kind of stuff), why change that now ?
Why forcing NVidia to write drivers for them ?
What NVidia owes them anyway ?
Or why don't they pay a few dollars to NVidia and I'm sure that they 'll write a nice open-source driver for them !
Am I wrong ?
Linux developers do not want the nvidia people to design drivers for them. Instead, they want nvidia to release the driver source code under the GPL license so that it can be included in the main kernel tree source code.
This is of great benefit to any linux user in so many ways. It means that more people (linux kernel developers), not just nvidia employee's, can help fix driver issues as well as maintain the nvidia module code as the kernel code progresses in maturity.
closed sources drivers defeat this purpose. AMD has offered up support for a open source driver project. Intel has released it's drivers. Nvidia is being stubborn.
You are just asking for too much. It's not bad, but don't expect to achieve sth.
Nvidia isn't obligated to do anything simply because you want them to do it. I doubt the bitching and moaning of some developers is going to make Nvidia change anything.
If it were the other way around, wouldn't you be asking this: "Why the heck didn't the Linux Developer Community just ASK NVidia to release specifications instead of calling for a boycott?"
I don't mean to put words in your mouth or anything - but they are, in mine and several others opinion, correct in asking first.
To put things in perspective - How much of a black eye does Microsoft Vista have right now? And how much of that black eye is attributable to early NVidia drivers?
The answer to both is an unqualified 'Lots'.
If NVidia released the specifications, then Microsoft could have written the drivers themselves. Instead, they flushed a release.
why should they?
they fixed their Vista issues and only purveyors of outdated FUD keep that story going
A
Without market share these things don't make a huge dent however. Once pre-installed system sales rise and the gaming industry begins to include Linux more or the FOSS game community makes some killer games that type of pressure would add up on Nvidia.
MS should have worked much more pro-actively with third party vendors to help them with Vista driver development. The value in Windows systems is that there are so many hardware and software choices out there. But when MS changes the entire driver architecture and big players like Nvidia, Dell and HP weren't fully onboard with Vista, you have to wonder how they thought it wouldn't be a train wreck.
The Linux community isn't asking hardware vendors to write drivers.
Besides the fact that most hardware vendors don't want to maintain drivers for Windows, MacOS, FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, BeOS, HURD, Xen, Linux, Solaris, etc. (as well as any other new platforms that arise)
Even if they wanted to do so, whether or not they can write good quality drivers is questionable. Just look at the mess NVidia made in Vista! As you mentioned in your post - Vista changed the driver model. NVidia could then say 'Good luck with that!' to Microsoft, as the hardware spec was available to them.
The hardware vendors are being asked to make good, solid interface documentation, and make it available without NDAs or other restrictions. The drivers will not only be written, but they'll probably be shipped with the operating systems, and for the most part, just work.
Companies that specialize in PC hardware should stick to the hardware, and let the software specialists write the software.
(This is different than the Broadcom mess in wireless. Broadcom hardware is just barely this side of utter crap and there are far better choices out there.)
What the maintainers are saying is that it's better for everyone to have cooperation between NVidia and themselves to save time from having to reverse engineer the NVidia driver and NVidia gets quality in return.
ttfn
John
While I'd prefer an open driver, I don't think it's essential. It's much worse in the wireless chipset market, where you have Atheros and BroadCom who offer no or little Linux support (I believe Acer contracted a Linux driver from BroadCom for some of their laptops). I'm still trying to get my Atheros chipset Linux-n laptop to work on Ubuntu (some recent additions may help, but I need to hook it to a land-line and check and haven't had time). I've had no luck with NDISwrapper so far, but haven't had extensive time to debug it (yay, fun).
I do *not* allow windows to automatically update any driver, particularly Nvidia, because of potential instability.
Nvidia would benefit by supplying driver source to knowledgeable developers but i do *not* feel this is a major reason for "Hindering Desktop Linux" - primarily because MS has the same annoying problem.
Most users (95 percent) do not understand the MS-Mac-Linux open-source debate -- what they do *not* appreciate is the crude and insulting comments they read on the support web sites.
Seems to me that NVidia would want to keep that market, at least, happy.
I'd suggest that your 1% is very low even if all it takes in is the United States. I'd guess that desktop penetration is much higher in other parts of the planet.
Still, the point is that it's better for the Linux kernel maintainers and for NVidia to go the route ATI and Intel have gone and everyone including NVidia wins.
Compared to Atheros and Broadcom "drivers" for wireless on Linux, Open Solaris, the various BSDs and so on, NVidia drivers as they stand are wonderful to work with.
And, one supposes from the tone of your comment, that the kernel maintainers aren't allowed an opinion?
Apparently you're allowed one.
ttfn
John
nVidia is under no obligation to create Linux drivers; they could choose to support Windows only (remember the WinModem mess?) The fact that nVidia provides any kind of drivers is fine by me; why are we constantly trying to push the Open Source philosophy on everyone? Sure I wish it was open source, but closed drivers is better than no drivers ... or are we ignoring how Red Hat, whose philosophy was not to bundle proprietary software, included Netscape Communicator with their distribution? Was there anything better at the time?
The Linux community isn't asking hardware vendors to write drivers.
The hardware vendors are being asked to provide interface documentation.
-Mike
As root
run "init 2"
run /etc/init.d/vncserver stop"
run "nvidia-installer -f"
This downloads, configures, compiles and installs the driver. Do not forget to select Open GL support when asked and select backup Xorg and create a new one.
run "/etc/init.d/vncserver start"
run "init 5"
Done....
But it would be great if NVIDIA, provided updated RPMs to yum for consistency.
Works..right out of the box.
I wish it was open source too but it's not, for the moment that big a deal for me.
ttfn
John
The only other serious 3d accelerator competition to nVidia is ATI/AMD.Both companies have recently had software quality issues with their drivers actually (both windows and linux), but from my own experiences with owning both brands of GPU, nVidias linux drivers are much better than ATI's linux drivers especially with respect to stability, performance, ease of installation, and supported features. Furthermore ATI still don't even provide Linux drivers for many of their older GPUs, like the one in my 4 yr old laptop at home, while nVidia supports all but their really early hardware on
both platforms.
lets look at the practical issues of nVidia releasing opensource drivers:
1) They are in close competition with ATI in the windows world and use the same proprietrary tech in both their windows and linux drivers. If the world forced them to release opensource drivers, they would just remove all the good stuff and release a simple no-frills driver that would have very limited performance and features (therefore limited use) compared to their binary-only driver.
2) They probably only have a small team doing linux drivers compared to the size of their windows driver team, so if they basically double their support load by adding open source drivers to support too, then you can bet the closed-source ones would suffer or possibly even go away to the detriment of all.
To be honest, even as an experienced low-level software developer I have no interest in the workings of nVidias drivers and certanly can't ever imagine a need to go modify them, so open-source drivers from nVidia offer nothing for me personally as a user. I suspect 99.9999% of other linux/nVidia users pretty much feel the same. By comparison, ???in the windows world opensource drivers don't ever seem to be asked for, let alone be an issue.
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