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Linux and Open Source

Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols & Paula Rooney

Why Apache keeps Google at a safe distance

By | November 5, 2010, 7:17am PDT

Summary: Google likes the Apache license, but Google is not an Apache member.

The relationship between Apache and Google is a bit like that between England and America.

It’s special, it can be close, but if you want to start a fight just call a Brit an “American poodle” or Apache a Google follower. I did, and it was the one point in my talk with them that things got vewy, vewy quiet.

After I finished yammering at them, they quietly sat me down to set me straight.

Ross Gardler of OSSWatch is Apache’s vice president for community development. Its main project is Google’s annual “summer of code.” But he is quite anxious to discuss other projects that have nothing to do with Google.

“We are working on a mentoring program that doesn’t rely on Google, that isn’t limited geographically or limited to just students,” he said. It’s for programmers who want to know how open source works and how to work within Apache.

Apache is mainly just a giant mailing list. As it continues to grow this can be more-and-more intimidating to a newbie, even a mature programmer from a corporate background. The idea behind the mentoring program is to give new faces an ally, someone to lead them in the Apache way and help them be heard.

“We’ve had two people from IBM through,” Gardler said. You wouldn’t think an IBM-er would feel nervous about being part of a mailing list, but if you don’t know how people might react, if you don’t know the folkways, you can remain a lurker forever.

Gardler is also working with Seneca College of Toronto on creating a course about open source. A textbook is in the works, modules are being created, and there is talk about going to market with it through O’Reilly or Flat World when it’s ready.

Yes, Google likes the Apache license, but Google is not an Apache member. (NOTE: Only individuals are members. It’s more proper to say a high-level sponsor. There was no Google table at ApacheCon in Atlanta.) It’s big enough to take on big projects by itself, it doesn’t need a club to be a power, and if it were an Apache membera higher level sponsor it might be like an elephant in a row boat — big enough to tip the thing over.

This is what Gardler secretly hopes happens with Java and Oracle’s efforts to maintain a community for what looks increasingly like a proprietary corporate project.

What individuals say, think or do “makes no difference unless the money walks away. Google is the money, Google has walked away and we’ll soon find out what happens.”

Sounded to me like Churchill after FDR signed Lend-Lease, but you can understand where he’s coming from. Apache is not a financial power. It’s just a mailing list. It’s only through persuasion, by having real powers agree its principles make sense, that Apache matters.

Google can do what it wants but if it chooses to follow the Apache way it can be a force for good in the software world. So can any open source company.

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Topics

Dana Blankenhorn has been a business journalist for 30 years, a tech freelancer since 1983.

Disclosure

Dana Blankenhorn

Dana Blankenhorn has been a journalist, writer and part-time futurist for over 30 years.

At the present moment I run only a personal blog in addition to my ZDNet open source blog.

DanaBlankenhorn.Com has the subtitle The War Against Oil. In the past I have used it to write about political history, e-commerce, personal matters, some ideas related to open source, and The World of Always On, which is the idea of using sensors, motes and RFID to turn WiFi links into platforms for applications which live in the air.

My IRA account at Schwab holds a few tech shares, most notably some Intel and Applied Materials, but there are no open source companies in it. I don’t even own any CBS stock.

Biography

Dana Blankenhorn

Dana Blankenhorn has been a business journalist for nearly 25 years and has covered the online world professionally since 1985. He founded the Interactive Age Daily for CMP Media, and has written for the Chicago Tribune, Advertising Age's "NetMarketing" supplement, and dozens of other publications over the years.

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RE: Why Apache keeps Google at a safe distance
THUFIR.HAWAT 19th Dec 2010
@jorjitop dunno if that really makes sense. Evil is a bit over the top here, I mean we're not dealing with crimes against humanity, exactly.

Anyhow, the whole *point* of FOSS licenses is to *remove* motive from the table. Provided that a FOSS license is used, what does it matter what anyones "intent" is?
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elephant in a row boat
wzrobin 5th Nov 2010
"This is what Gardler secretly hopes happens with Java and Oracle?s efforts to maintain a community for what looks increasingly like a proprietary corporate project."

Can you expand on that a little...

What is he hoping will replace Java?
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RE: Why Apache keeps Google at a safe distance
DanaBlankenhorn 5th Nov 2010
@wzrobin I'm not exactly certain myself. But I suspect that between the minds of Google (the money), Apache (the programmers) and others a solution might come, possibly in the form of a fork from something Oracle can't sue over. There are also many programmers who don't like Java and might like something that operates at a higher level of abstraction to replace it.
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@DanaBlankenhorn everything should go back to c++. It's just better than all the alternatives.
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"Yes, Google likes the Apache license, but Google is not an Apache member. It?s big enough to take on big projects by itself, it doesn?t need a club to be a power, and if it were an Apache member it might be like an elephant in a row boat ? big enough to tip the thing over."

Google could never become an Apache member. Neither could any other company, cause the ASF is made up by individuals, not companies. And I'm sure plenty of Google employees are already part of the ASF. See http://www.apache.org/foundation/faq.html#corporate-membership
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RE: Why Apache keeps Google at a safe distance
DanaBlankenhorn 5th Nov 2010
@cominvent Member was a mistake. Active supporter might be better. There were several open source companies at ApacheCon with little stands. Most were quite small, although there was always someone in a Red Hat about.
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@DanaBlankenhorn I am kind of surprised that there was no Google table at apachecon. I'm sure there were plenty of Google employees there.
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RE: Why Apache keeps Google at a safe distance
DanaBlankenhorn 5th Nov 2010
@cominvent Correction made. Thanks. This is what makes blogging different from "stories." Can someone please tell the PR people that?
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a fork?
THUFIR.HAWAT 5th Nov 2010
I can only presume that they imagine that Java will fork under the ASL.
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RE: Why Apache keeps Google at a safe distance
DanaBlankenhorn 5th Nov 2010
@THUFIR.HAWAT I have no idea what the ASF will do. Sun put Java under the GPL, so if you're to start with the underlying code it's going to probably stay under that license.

But if Oracle decides to make Java proprietary someone is going to do something. There are too many business interests vested in having it remain open source and community driven.
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@DanaBlankenhorn Funny you should mention that under this article. Should Android be GPL considering the comment you just made? Either your comment is regarded invalid, Java is not GPL ... or your article is invalid, Google is in breach of the GPL with Android under the ASL and the ASL will be the undoing of Google.

Topic is Moot (up for debate, research the word).
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@DanaBlankenhorn Oracle sucks. They are going to kill everything that sun has done over the past decade.
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RE: Why Apache keeps Google at a safe distance
THUFIR.HAWAT Updated - 14th Dec 2010
@DanaBlankenhorn first, thanks for the reply I was being somewhat tongue-in-cheek there, and kinda baiting, in that, while anyone can fork openJDK under the GPL, no one can fork OpenJDK under the ASF, which is kinda the point. You can't take GPL'ed code and release it under the ASL. In fact, only Oracle could do so, but they would have no motive.

While Oracle could stop contributing to OpenJDK, IBM et. al. are free to take it and run with it, just like GNU/Linux. (I never write GNU/Linux, but here I will to make it clear that this applies to anything under the GPL.)

Oracle can't really, at least not effectively, "make" OpenJDK proprietary because there's always that GPL'ed version running around out there. I would say that "It a tale Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing." (No, I'm not calling you an idiot, of course.)

This is straying into IANAL area, but, really, it's just FUD to believe that can be "made" proprietary, be that Java, Linux, whatever.

(There's always MySQL type dual-licensing, but I wouldn't really call that proprietary.)
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Prof. Ebral
DanaBlankenhorn 6th Nov 2010
You make some interesting points. But there are multiple versions of Java. The Oracle suit charges they used an Apache project under the Apache license for the Dalvik JVM. Apache says it was code under the Apache license, but not Apache code. Google says, "not guilty."
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Apache has got it. You, Dana, have not. Google is the embodiment of evil on the internet. They are in it for the money. But, rather than doing it obviously, by charging you money for product, they are doing it surreptiously by using other people's intellectual property (even GPL), and scraping other people's private information in order to sell advertising.

Google only believes in open source as long as they can use it to make money for themselves. It is time that the world woke up to the fact that "Do no evil" went out when Eric Schmidt came in.
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@jorjitop dunno if that really makes sense. Evil is a bit over the top here, I mean we're not dealing with crimes against humanity, exactly.

Anyhow, the whole *point* of FOSS licenses is to *remove* motive from the table. Provided that a FOSS license is used, what does it matter what anyones "intent" is?

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