ie8 fix
madison

More facts and less hysteria on Vista, please!

By | September 28, 2007, 2:37am PDT

In the latest round of hysteria to be written about Windows Vista, Don Reisinger regurgitates the usual hysteria about Windows Vista mixed in with a pinch of facts here and there.  Don spouts off the usual nonsense about sales, UAC, and even DRM.  Despite the fact that bashing Vista is quite the popular sport these days, I’m going to see if I can set him straight with an honest and factual assessment of Windows Vista.

Are Vista sales really poor?
Everyone knows that Windows Vista retail box sales are poor, but does that matter when Microsoft relies overwhelmingly on sales to OEM PC makers?  If you focus only on the retail box sales, you’re missing the real picture because Vista has sold more than 60 million licenses and ~78% of those sales are Vista Premium edition.  Don complains about Windows Vista Ultimate edition and I actually agree with him that it’s overpriced and under delivers but Microsoft doesn’t need to “save itself” if Vista Ultimate fails, more like an “oh well”.

Does it matter if a few people revert to XP?
Even if a whopping 20% of computer buyers downgrade and revert to Windows XP for whatever reason, that still leaves 80% who stay with Windows Vista.  That means hardware makers and ISVs (Independent Software Vendors) have to deal with Windows Vista now or later whether they like it or not if they want to stay in business.  The fact that 60 million copies were sold in the first 6 months since launch pretty much confirms Vista will become the dominant OS by default.

How about Vista drivers?
There are no questions about it, a fair number of Vista drivers during the first 2 months stunk badly.  Vista implements a brand new driver model which offers a little more separation between the driver and the kernel so that a bad driver is less likely to crash the entire system.  The price for this is that there is a brand new learning curve and it took a few months for the hardware companies to get it right.  For the most part, everything is working well but there are still some older devices that don’t have drivers and will never get drivers for Windows Vista and much of that is because the hardware vendors want you to buy new hardware.

Is it fair to expect a hardware company to write drivers for a 3+ year old device? Probably not.  Is it fair to expect users to buy new hardware because they can’t get Vista drivers for a one year old device? Definitely no!  Reputable hardware companies that want to keep customer loyalty will go back as far as they can to create drivers for older hardware.  Was it Microsoft’s fault that the drivers didn’t work well at first?  Technically no but that isn’t going to matter to consumers and they’ll take their anger out on Microsoft and the hardware maker.  Fortunately, the driver situation has stabilized but it’s always good to check for drivers before you upgrade a computer to Vista and before you buy a piece of hardware.

How about application compatibility in Windows Vista?
There’s no question about it, applications will break in Vista and it’s probably the #1 reason some people are reverting back to Windows XP.  This is primarily due to the fact that many applications never followed Windows development guidelines set since 2000.  One of the worst offenders is Intuit which refused to properly write QuickBooks right up to the 2006 version.  Intuit never followed Windows development guidelines that have existed since Windows 2000 and XP for Windows logo certification and they - like many other software makers - used Vista as an opportunity to sell a new version of QuickBooks 2007.  If you bought QuickBooks 2006 or earlier, you were out of luck and it wouldn’t run on your new computer and you had to buy QuickBooks 2007.

Microsoft asked developers for 7 years to clean up their act but drew the line in the sand with Windows Vista which comes with UAC (User Access Control) on by default.  That finally forced vendors like Intuit to properly code their application and not violate security best practices.  If UAC does nothing else and even if people turn it off, it has had the desired effect of cleaning up the Windows development community.

Vista and Internet Explorer 7 also breaks a lot of applications in the name of drawing a line in the sand for security.  Microsoft will get criticized for not getting rid of things like Active X but they’ll also get criticized for breaking dangerous coding techniques and the vast majority of Active X controls have been disabled in Windows Vista by default.  There are still plenty of web applications that don’t work inside Windows Vista and Internet Explorer 7 and vendors like Kodak will try to drag their feet but they will have to deal with it sooner or later unless they want to alienate the 60 million (since summer) and growing Vista user base.  My colleague David Berlind questions why Microsoft needs to break so many legacy applications and the answer is security.  It’s a known fact that until something is hard broken, no one will change anything.  Is this going to be painful?  Certainly.  But it has to be done if we want a more secure computing environment.

<Next page - Vista Upgrades, DRM, and bogus comparisons>

Disclosure

George Ou

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?page_id=557

Biography

George Ou

George Ou, a former ZDNet blogger, is an IT consultant specializing in Servers, Microsoft, Cisco, Switches, Routers, Firewalls, IDS, VPN, Wireless LAN, Security, and IT infrastructure and architecture.

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Ole Man 28th Oct 2007
Do they also activate, reactivate, limit the
functionality, run WGA, install Microsoft
spyware/rootkits to monitor your activities,
update the MSWMP DRM regularly, and freeze
up when you disable any of these wonderful
activities?

If not, you're missing out on all the fun.
Just wait!
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All about the hardware
tooner440 28th Sep 2007
I upgraded to Vista the minute it came out in February, after having run every "Check to see if your system is Vista-ready!" app out there, and my system passed with flying colors. A couple months after installing, I was ready to throw my computer out the window. Yes, I experienced a couple driver issues (but only a couple), but no application issues - everything ran great (including Adobe Photoshop 8, so not sure what all the fuss was about), but the system itself was dog sloooow, even with all the interface features turned off.

I finally found a USB thumb drive that was compatible with ReadyBoost and I have to say it really works - my system actually became usable, even with all the interface goodies turned on, and I was happy for a while. My research showed, however, that my system exceeded all the recommendations (real world recommendations, not MS's) for good performance in RAM, video card, etc. But my processor was old, and upgrading it was going to involve upgrading the mother board, the power supply, etc.

So I gave in and decided to upgrade. I explored a lot of choices (including Mac), and eventually went with a Dell XPS 410 with a Core2 Duo Quad (as in FOUR!) processors. It's been a month, and I have been in Windows heaven. Vista runs like a dream, and I can't remember the last time I was so happy with my computer.

So, like all Windows versions before it, Vista requires all the RAM and processing power you can throw at it, which yes, kind of sucks, but if you grit your teeth and just do it, you will not regret it.
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OK More Facts : Vista Gets In The Way
TheBoyBailey 28th Sep 2007
OK some more facts on Vista:

World of Warcraft was updated this week with a new patch. To save time I update my main machine (Windows XP) with the patch and all the addons. I then copy the whole directory lock stock and barrel to my Dell Vostro laptop with Vista Ultimate as the WoW client doesn't need to actually be installed. You can just copy it. My other half had the pleasure of doing that this time.

First of all he had trouble finding the map network drive command. Then selected the directory and dropped it in C:\Program Files

1st Prompt .. Are you sure you want to do this? Yes
2nd Prompt .. Some Programs might stop working. Are you Sure? Yes (even though WoW has never actually been installed)
3rd Prompt .. You may be asked for your Administrator Password. Ok
4th Prompt .. UAC Prompt. Windows needs your permission to continue. ok
Then dialog saying calculating how long with will take. This took nearly 1 minute.
Then dialog saying Counting number of files. This took about 30 seconds
5th Prompt .. Are you sure you want to overwrite WOW.exe. Yes
6th Prompt .. Some Programs might stop working. Are you sure? Yes
7th Prompt .. You may be asked for your Administrator Password. Ok
8th Prompt .. UAC Prompt. Windows needs your permission to continue. ok
Copy file dialog.. Sat there for a while but didn't seem to be actually doing anything.
9th Prompt .. There as another directory called System. Are you sure you want to overwrite it? Yes
10th Prompt .. Some Programs might stop working. Are you Sure? Yes
11th Prompt .. You may be asked for your Administrator Password. Ok
12th Prompt .. UAC Prompt. Windows needs your permission to continue. ok
The back to the REALLY slow copy.

12 prompts to do a simply file copy. This was his first exposure to Vista and his only repeatable comment that I can post here is 'Vista just gets in the way.'

I've left UAC in place because of the supposed benefits, but earlier on today I turned it off. Do you know what? Before my brand new laptop with T7500 Intel Duo Core and 2gb of memory felt like an old Pentium 90. Now it seems to have been given a new lease of life. Turning off UAC has made Vista seem more lively, reponsive and faster. There are still quite a few niggles that annoy me though, but I might just keep it now instead of downgrading to XP.

Timbo
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You can do that, but UAC has done its job by forcing software vendors to write their software correctly to not require admin mode. That alone was worth it and I don't really care how many people turn UAC off. I personally just shut the Secure Desktop feature off and keep UAC on.
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You misread it slightly
TheBoyBailey 28th Sep 2007
There was no install... WoW does not require elevated privileges to run. Just a simply file copy from one PC to another. At the most there should have been only one set of prompts (the first set) at which permission was granted.

Talking about turning UAC off ... I was surprised what a difference it made. It made Vista seem so much more responsive.

Timbo
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I didn't misread it
georgeou 28th Sep 2007
I didn't misread it. When you try to access the system folders, it will trigger UAC. That is an unusual task for your typical user and I'll bet you don't do this kind of operation more than once a month tops. But like I said in the blog, there are plenty of things Microsoft should do to consolidate those prompts.
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Not everyone is George Ou
nizuse 28th Sep 2007
Accept the fact that people are different from what you think they should be George. Reality is bigger than you.
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WoW, thats a lot of unnecessary work
Badgered 28th Sep 2007
World of Warcraft was updated this week with a new patch. To save time I update my main machine (Windows XP) with the patch and all the addons. I then copy the whole directory lock stock and barrel to my Dell Vostro laptop with Vista Ultimate as the WoW client doesn't need to actually be installed. You can just copy it. My other half had the pleasure of doing that this time.

It seems to me that you are getting in the way of how the program was designed to work. WoW will download the patches while you are playing the game, before the patch is actually required to be installed. So that on the date the patch "goes live" it is already downloaded and will install. At that time, the patch install would actually take less time than you copying the folder from one PC to the other and without UAC prompts (at least on mine, and I have UAC prompts enabled)

So it seems like since you are trying to go contrary to the way the system was setup, you might almost expect to have problems.
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WoW .. I find it easier to work that way
TheBoyBailey 28th Sep 2007
I use the laptop for working away and playing WoW in the evenings when I am away from home. I would agree about the patches but bandwidth is usually limited when in hotels and you can't really afford to have a big WoW patch download through it as you will usually exceed your quota and have to pay more.

Additionally I use a large number of addons and its a pain to have to download and configure them on both. Its usually much easier to setup on correctly and copy everythng to the lappy. Worked really well with my older one.

Timbo
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Interesting
Badgered 28th Sep 2007
I can see why that could be a problem. I guess all I can say is since you probably need to do it that way, there is a price to be paid for a more secure OS.

As far as addons go, *most* of the time I don't have to change them, just re-enable and mark the load out of date addons, and I'm good to go.
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NO you don't have to pay
johnson12 4th Oct 2007
That same action on a linux/unix box would require the admin password. That's it, no click thru's.

No matter what good you say about Vista it's hardware requirements are a JOKE!!

How can you hope to ever "go green" when the next Redmond release will make your current rig not good enough.

Where are all those hw resources going????
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I concur.
Ben_E 30th Sep 2007
Just find the patch install file and copy that across. It's no wonder you're seeing UAC prompts, you're doing it in a bizarre and time consuming way. I do the exact same thing (XP machine -> Vista machine) but never see the prompt as I just take the patch file across (incidentally, it's good practise to keep a DVD with all these on in case you need to reinstall for some reason - install WoW, then BC, then the patch files - if you wait for each individual download, you're going to be heavily delayed in getting back into the game).
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What you fail to mention...
ivanotter 28th Sep 2007
Is that most of those prompts exist in XP too. The only ones i see that aren't are the UAC promps (what, all of 3 of them?)
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You're wrong there mate. The additional prompts in Vista are the UAC ones AND the Administrator ones. I could forgive it IF Vista had only bunged in a couple of extra ones, i.e. the first administrator and UAC prompt. But it kept asking me the same prompts over again, even though I had authorised it.

Timbo.
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Yes, and...
thx-1138_@... 28th Sep 2007
I had a dual-boot with XP and Vista Ultimate installed and found the whole setup problematic - but not because of Vista, this was a case of me doubling up on applications across 2 different OSs.

As functionality goes, some things were perplexing - not least of all the repetitive administrator prompts warning about this and prompting me for that. Having said that, the overall install was OK. Some of the functionality as far as the Start Menu goes are slightly less than intuitive, but the overall operability of the system seemed rather good. The driver problems i encountered were concentrated on audio driver compatibility - which was rectified thru the autoupdate feature.

Also, i installed some 20 apps after a clean install of Vista and of the 20 apps (which btw are all running on my XP install), only 2 apps returned any conflicts - and consequently were removed: Cache Cleaner v3.0 and Nero Premium 7.0. The Admin' warning returned by Microsoft Update informed me promptly that Vista does not support Nero 7.

If i were to score the overall performance of my particular experience of Vista ( with 1 being worst and 10 best), i would say that Vista gets about a 7.5.

Now folks are going to complain about the drivers currently available for a whole range of apps', but that is a 'gimme' for the anti-crowd. It was always going to be the case that the drivers would always be an issue for a new OS - heck, that's going to be the case for any new OS. It will no doubt be some time before the driver situation stabilises.

I think people should relax and look forward to Vista becoming a very good OS. The SP1 to be released in due course should help address many user concerns.
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How?
CobraA1 28th Sep 2007
#1 and #2 I can see.

#3 should be part of #4? Are they really separate? Asking for the password should be part of UAC, not separate.

Calculating how long it will take is a known problem and will be helped with SP1.

#5 is normal

#6 to the end I don't really understand - you should only need to give permission for stuff once - and UAC should only appear once. Very odd.

I've NEVER EVER had that many prompts for anything. This is, IMHO, a really extreme case and almost never happens - it's certainly never happened while I've used Vista. Quite frankly, it's not as bad as you make it sound because you're using an extreme case as an example and not a regular case. Realistically, almost nobody is going to receive this many prompts.
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Level 73 Elite
Chiatzu 4th Oct 2007
On my Intel iMac, WoW updates are like butta'. Just saying.

The extra security features in Vista is MS's response to years of lax security
criticism, but I think they've overblown it a bit. And of course, user security is
only as good as someone knowing when to correctly say yes or no to the right or
wrong things. No amount of UAC or other can replace user knowledge and
scrutiny.

I also notice really slow file copying in Vista (and others have too). And the
calculation estimates for file copy time remaining is usually bonkers, as well. Wish
I could turn the latter off.
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If the EU ruling about naked PC's came into force at the Vista launch.

Given the opportunity of buying Vista preinstalled on the latest OEM PC's in the high street stores or the choice of having to pick between XP OEM install disc and Vista OEM install disc I wonder which one the consumers would go with.

You also have to consider the % of Vista sales in relation to the installed user base and not just the raw sales figure alone.

If Vista sold 60 Million out of 600 Million PC's then that is a 10% uptake in 6 months.

If XP only sold 10 Million in the same 6 month period after launch then it could be mistaken that Vista has outsold XP. However if you factored in a user base of say 100 Million PC's then the uptake is just the same as XP.

My figures are arbitrary. However I would consider Vista to only be a sales success if it equals of surpasses the same % uptake as XP over the same period.
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"If Vista sold 60 Million out of 600 Million PC's then that is a 10% uptake in 6 months."

I can assure you the PC industry does not sell a billion PCs in a year; that's the total number of PCs in the world. Those 60 million represent the lion's share of PCs sold.
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It made me wonder
tombalablomba 28th Sep 2007
what the expected amount of PC's sold would be worldwide.

According to Computer Industry Almanacs press release (http://www.c-i-a.com/pr0707.htm) this would be 250M. Roughly this is an average of 20M per month. if after half a year Vista sales have been 60 Million this would mean that actually only half of the sold PC's where outfitted with Vista and that surprises me a lot...
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I'm not surprised.
notsofast 28th Sep 2007
Maybe I'm wrong, but I assume that most PCs are still purchased by businesses. It hasn't been but 9 or 10 months since Vista came out. I'd be shocked if more than a handful of big companies have made a significant move towards vista.

OTOH, I suspect virtually all home users buy vista machines. Home users run off the shelf software/games. Businesses also run many internal and vertical apps, which may not work with vista.

It's much more complicated for them.
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Market Share
Bozzer 28th Sep 2007
Nowhere did I say my figures represent the number of PC's sold in a year? I was talking about the installed user base. The total number of PC's in the world.

Here, let me help you out with this George, I don't want to see you struggle.

If there is a user base of 100 Million PC's at the time of the XP launch and number of XP sales in the 6 months after totals 10 Million then the uptake of XP is 10%.

If there is a user base of 600 Million PC's at the time of the Vista launch and the number of Vista sales in the 6 months after totals 60 Million then the uptake of Vista is 10%.

Would you measure the success of Vista compared to XP in just the raw number of units sold considering that the installed base is now considerably bigger than when XP was released? Would you not agree that the "true" measure of Vista success compared to XP would be that Vista at least equals if not betters the uptake in the 6-12 month period after its launch.

RAW sales are not enough to measure success. Market share is the all important barometer. And if Vista isn't gaining the same market share as XP did over the same period, then you cannot genuinely say Vista is a success.
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Your silence is deafening
Bozzer 29th Sep 2007
That you sought the belittle my comment claiming it nonsense. Yet when I pointed out the mistake in your assumptions you remain silence.

Perhaps it is just too hard a pill to swallow, especially as you have put your reputation on Vista being a success. You certainly seem keen to ridicule anyone who produces any criticism of Vista.

If Vista does bomb (which it might) what are you going to do then?
?If Vista sold 60 Million out of 600 Million PC's then that is a 10% uptake in 6 months.?

It?s not my fault if you weren?t clear in your statement and now you want to clarify that you meant all the PCs in the world. The point is that almost all new retail PCs ship with Vista and the vast majority of those machines stay with Vista. It will not happen over night or in a year, but we will see a dominant market share after 3 years after Vista's launch.

"Perhaps it is just too hard a pill to swallow, especially as you have put your reputation on Vista being a success. You certainly seem keen to ridicule anyone who produces any criticism of Vista."

I stand by my prediction that it will only be a matter of time before Vista becomes the dominant OS as XP has over the last 6 years. I ridicule and criticize blatantly ignorant and false statements such as "you can't backup movies in Vista".

And FYI, as good as I am about answering comments, I DON'T get to every one of them.
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What are you on about?
Bozzer 30th Sep 2007
Did you actually read what I said?

"You also have to consider the % of Vista sales in relation to the installed user base and not just the raw sales figure alone.

If Vista sold 60 Million out of 600 Million PC's then that is a 10% uptake in 6 months"

Did you completely miss that first sentence? And you still have not answered the question. What do you consider a measure of success? Raw sales, or % market share?
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I said it will take 3 years for Vista to become a dominant OS. That's about how many years it took XP to become the dominant OS on the market.
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IE 7 and MBSA
sordito 28th Sep 2007
This isn't a Vista gripe, rather a IE 7 gripe. I installed IE 7 on my work PC. I run MS Baseline Security Analyzer. Everytime you want to view a report on a PC or server, you have to click through warnings (2 of them) about allowing this to run. MBSA is from MS and it has issues. Resetting IE to prevent this causes all kinds of warnings about unsafe settings in IE and to "click here" to correct the unsafe settings. Maybe they should fix their own software and coding practices first. I uninstalled IE7 to get away from the hassle. If there is a fix or workaround for this I haven't found it yet.
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My main complaint is the new licensing constraints for the Business users. A new license server for those wonderful Open License copies of Windows Vista?

I wanted to avoid XP when I heard about activation. Now with Vista, I want to avoid Windows even more.
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It's been the biggest release in years for Microsoft and has been somewhat long in the making.

Microsoft's PR team hyped the release up, and I guess the term "expectations management" hasn't been in their play book.

Most reviews I've read where pretty favorable, but due to some good expectations management, also lacked the enthusiasm of the XP launch. I think Mary Jo Foley hits the nail there when she remarks that it looks like the OS has gone the same road that office has gone. "for most people the old one is more than good enough".

As expected the first months where filled with people complaining about lack of good drivers. Which happened as well at the launch of windows 98, 2000 and XP. So actually nothing shocking or new.

All these complaints never made it to the mass media. Launch was covered, but that's basically it.


I've ignored most of the DRM stuff, because I only buy non DRM'ed music or CD's and I never play DVD's on my PC so I basically don't care about it.

The UAC stuff was to be expected, mainly because the average user doesn't understand the need and why should they. Eventually they'll get used to it and become the click and enter happy crowd. (As an IT guy I think this is horrible, but as we've never bothered to bring them up with the notion of privileges who can blame them.)

The 60 mln figure was less than I would have expected, but as MS is happy with it, why would I care. They still seem healthy enough and make a profit.

What I honestly didn't expect and has surprised me is the amount of people that just want XP. In most discussion I've had with people about this subject, the remark in most cases is, I know it, it works, so why would I change.

To me the above was actually the first crack, and I expect most people at Microsoft also didn't expect this kind or resistance.

What I'm currently seeing now is that peoples moods are changing towards Vista. Mainly because the buzz has become negative in the mass media.

The complaints aren't about UAC, DRM, but are mainly focussed at two subjects:
- It is slower than XP (mainly attributed to the fact that people are sold systems which barely meet the minimum requirements)
- My gear doesn't work with it.

And the main problem with the above is that Microsoft is the sitting duck. They can hardly influence these two problems. And the press (at least those in the Netherlands) is now giving Vista bad press.

The coming months will be increasingly interesting to me, because if the mindset is changing of the average joe surrounding Vista, it could take a lot longer than MS expected to have Vista take over XP's role.

Cnet won't change the mindset of average Joe, mass media like newspapers and television news shows do....

as an aside i'm an avid linux user, haven't used Vista and my interest into the launch has been mostly as a bystander, interested in technology
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Interesting analysis
nizuse 28th Sep 2007
Same here. Staff around me are lukewarm towards VISTA. It's company policy to not install VISTA, and stick with XP. Even if we buy new notebooks for staff with VISTA pre-installed, we wipe it clean and put XP on it.

VISTA is simply not enough of an improvement to bother. George can live in his 30 sec world, but reality is different outside his home.
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and you miussed what he said
ivanotter 28th Sep 2007
He said overall its just not a significant increase to most people.

You went a bit left field witht he whole "george can" comment. Stop that
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absolutely!!
bonchi74@... 5th Oct 2007
If george went to a support site of HP for example and made a search of "BSOD" "VISTA" he probably would have not written "hysteria???". Basically Microsoft pushed Vista by force and are causing a lot of downtime per Vista host per customer. I don't see how there hasn't been a class action suit from all the home end-users who feel that login into their PC's takes them 3 times longer in a new machine than in an old 3 year old windows XP.
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I have yet to see a Linux...
bjbrock 28th Sep 2007
distro which requires as much resources as XP. If you are so far off on this statement I doubt the rest of your facts are any better.

I haven't read any of your rhetoric in a while. This article reminded me of why I quit reading you to begin with.
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Here you go!
bka1959 28th Sep 2007
Just a little Education!
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/SystemRequirements The Distro I am Dual booting with XP.
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/314865/ XP's requirments

The debate goes on!!!
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Not really ....
MisterMiester 28th Sep 2007
It's true that XP can run on a 233MHZ processor, which is lower then Ubuntu, but you still need a higher resolution video card, 800x600, plus the 2 gig install for Ubuntu is for a FULL install. Remember that a full install for Ubuntu comes with OpenOffice and a boatload of other tools.

I highly doubt you could fit a full install of XP within 1.5 gigs of space and you certainly wouldn't be able to do it with MS Office included. Besides you can run Xubuntu, Ubuntu with the Xfce desktop, instead if you specs are lower:

* 166 MHz processor
* 48 MB of system memory (RAM)
* At least 1.4 GB of disk space
* VGA graphics card

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/SystemRequirements

XP can't beat those numbers, right? wink
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wrong i would say///
ivanotter 28th Sep 2007
from the Umbuntu page:

*500 MHz x86 processor
*192 MB of system memory (RAM)
*8 GB of disk space
*Graphics card capable of 1024x768 resolution
*Sound card
*A network or Internet connection


So for a RECOMMENDED FULL INSTALL (the 2GB is a minimal not full) its 8GB. So no, the 2GB is the minimum, and likely on par with Windows (as far as lack of features).
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Please read again:
MisterMiester 28th Sep 2007
Windows XP:

The minimum hardware requirements for Windows XP Home Edition are:

*Pentium 233-megahertz (MHz) processor or faster (300 MHz is recommended)
? At least 64 megabytes (MB) of RAM (128 MB is recommended)
? At least 1.5 gigabytes (GB) of available space on the hard disk
? CD-ROM or DVD-ROM drive
? Keyboard and a Microsoft Mouse or some other compatible pointing device
? Video adapter and monitor with Super VGA (800 x 600)or higher resolution
? Sound card
? Speakers or headphones

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/314865/

Ubuntu 7:04:

Minimum requirements

* 300 MHz x86 processor
* 64 MB of system memory (RAM)
* At least 2 GB of disk space (for full installation and swap space)
* VGA graphics card capable of 640x480 resolution
* CD-ROM drive


Both are the minimum hardware requirements. Let's compare apples to apples, mkay? wink
to GUI recommended minimum. Like you say apples and oranges;-)
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Sorry ...
MisterMiester 28th Sep 2007
I didn't compare ANY recommends requirements. I only compared the minimum system requirements of Ubuntu and XP with the two links you originally posted. Why are you being so evasive?
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The minimum requirements are only likely to allow a server (non-graphical) installation to run well. The recommended minimum requirements should allow you to run a graphical installation of Ubuntu well.
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Server install to run well ...
MisterMiester 28th Sep 2007
Just under that information you gave:

Desktop installation

Most people will want to install a desktop system such as Ubuntu or Kubuntu. A desktop system is typically used for personal computing tasks and has a graphical user interface.

Minimum requirements

* 300 MHz x86 processor
* 64 MB of system memory (RAM)
* At least 2 GB of disk space (for full installation and swap space)
* VGA graphics card capable of 640x480 resolution
* CD-ROM drive

If your system has less than 192 MB of system memory, use the Alternate Installation CD.

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/SystemRequirements

Granted that Ubuntu won't run very well on that level of resources, but neither will XP. happy
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Absolute minimum graphical installation
Intel Pentium 66 MHz processor

48 MB of system memory (RAM)

468 MB of disk space

VGA graphics card

(Based on the Ubuntu/Debian-Sarge Mini-RAM HOWTO.)
You would have to roll back to Win98 to get this low!
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Get over it!
nwoodson@... 28th Sep 2007
The Win XP guide lines page is OS ONLY...no apps. Ubuntu, like most other Linux distros, has the entire software suite on it. office apps, half a dozen games, photeditor, multimedia apps, system mgmt apps et all.

When XP actually is run in 64Mb it is sooooo cramped. We need to look at real world machines, not bad textbook specs. Slackware, Puppy, Ark and a few others can actually run in 96 mb of ram on a P2 166 (done that) and Puppy can run on a 333Mz P3 from a 512Mb stick......and NO HD. Try it....it works...but not with windows.
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WinXP

Here's What You Need to Use Windows XP Professional
?

PC with 300 megahertz or higher processor clock speed recommended; 233 MHz minimum required (single or dual processor system);* Intel Pentium/Celeron family, or AMD K6/Athlon/Duron family, or compatible processor recommended
?

128 megabytes (MB) of RAM or higher recommended (64 MB minimum supported; may limit performance and some features)
?

1.5 gigabytes (GB) of available hard disk space*
?

Super VGA (800 x 600) or higher-resolution video adapter and monitor
?

CD-ROM or DVD drive
?

Keyboard and Microsoft Mouse or compatible pointing device

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/pro/evaluation/sysreqs.mspx

Ubuntu

Desktop 7.10

The desktop CD allows you to try Ubuntu without changing your computer at all, and at your option to install it permanently later. This type of CD is what most people will want to use. You will need at least 320MB of RAM to install from this CD

Alternate 7.10

installs on systems with less than about 320MB of RAM (although note that low-memory systems may not be able to run a full desktop environment reasonably).

7.04

The minimum memory requirement for Ubuntu 7.04 is 256MB of memory. With only the minimum amount of memory available, the installation process will take longer than normal, but will complete successfully, and the system will perform adequately once installed.

http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/releasenotes/704

Fedora

6.3.1. Hardware requirements for x86

In order to use specific features of Fedora 7 during or after installation, you may need to know details of other hardware components such as video and network cards.
6.3.1.1. Processor and memory

The following CPU specifications are stated in terms of Intel processors. Other processors, such as those from AMD, Cyrix, and VIA that are compatible with and equivalent to the following Intel processors, may also be used with Fedora.

Fedora 7 requires an Intel Pentium or better processor, and is optimized for Pentium 4 and later processors.

*

Recommended for text-mode: 200 MHz Pentium-class or better
*

Recommended for graphical: 400 MHz Pentium II or better
*

Minimum RAM for text-mode: 128MiB
*

Minimum RAM for graphical: 192MiB
*

Recommended RAM for graphical: 256MiB

http://docs.fedoraproject.org/release-notes/f7/en_US/sn-ArchSpecific.html#sn-ArchSpecific-x86-hw

Suse


openSUSE 10.2
Hardware Requirements

openSUSE supports most PC hardware components. The following requirements should be met to ensure smooth operation of openSUSE 10.2:

* Processor: Intel: Pentium 1-4 or Xeon; AMD: Duron, Athlon, Athlon XP, Athlon MP, Athlon 64, Sempron or Opteron
* Main memory: At least 256 MB; 512 MB recommended
* Hard disk: At least 500 MB for minimal system; 3 GB recommended for standard system
* Sound and graphics cards: Supports most modern sound and graphics cards

http://www.novell.com/products/opensuse/sysreqs.html

PCLOS

Basic Hardware Recommendations


An IBM PC with:

* 8 GB of free disk space
* 512 MB of memory
* a CD or DVD drive
* a network card (NIC)
* a high speed internet connection

(for new software and updates)

http://docs.pclinuxos.com/Recommendations

Debian

Table 3.2. Recommended Minimum System Requirements
Install Type RAM (minimal) RAM (recommended) Hard Drive
No desktop 64 megabytes 256 megabytes 1 gigabyte
With Desktop 64 megabytes 512 megabytes 5 gigabyte

http://www.debian.org/releases/etch/i386/ch03s04.html.en

Mepis

Minimum requirements for SimplyMEPIS-32 6.0 and 6.5

* 2.5GB free space on the hard disk
* 128MB RAM
* Pentium II/Athlon CPU
* Installing MEPIS on old hardware

[edit]
Better configuration

* 4GB free space on the hard disk
* 512MB RAM

[edit]
Preferred configuration

* 10GB free space on the hard disk for root/system
* 10GB or more on the hard disk for home/user
* 512MB RAM or more

http://www.mepis.org/docs/en/index.php/System_Requirements


George did over estimate a bit on the differences in hardware requirements. (Anyone tech savvy Knows XP is useless with less than 256 MB of RAM.) From what I gather here is that the minimum processor requirements are the same. All of these distros require either slightly more RAM for optimal performance or double that of XP. (Mepis)

These are the mainstream distros, which is what he was talking about. They all have higher hardware requirements than XP for full functionality on the desktop. You should really do some research before claiming all Linux distros use/require resources than XP.
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You may have a...
Necrolin 4th Oct 2007
point. On paper it looks like Linux is hungrier on resources. But check a real Linux install like Ubuntu and compare how much ram it actually uses. You'll find that even after you turn on things like Beryl or compiz-fusion (3d desktops) and launch 3 or 4 apps you're still using under 256 MB of ram. A base install will only use about 120 MB of ram for Ubuntu. Windows with nothing but the OS, Firewall, & anti-virus use about 150 MB.

I think that there is a clear difference between how MS rates it's minimum requirements and how Linux does this. If you use the minimum requirements for Windows you get an unusable computer. If you use the minimum requirements for Linux you get a decently performing computer.

I have 3 computers at home. They dual/triple boot with WinXP or Vista and Linux. I've yet to see Linux boot slower than Windows. This will depend on the services you are running, and the hardware, of course. My Archlinux desktop currently boots in 17 seconds (used to take 14) from boot loader while XP takes about 35 seconds on the same machine.
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The Good The Bad and The Ugly
andycher 28th Sep 2007
Good: the new interface
increased security

Bad: things that have not been fixed for years are no better in Vista

explorer.exe is still weak
how long does it take to see all your network drives?
can't they at least cache them so they'll pop right up the 2nd time

where is the speed?
Vista seems slower than XP

Ugly: IE7 crashes way too often

dwm.exe sucks memory like ther is no tomorrow and if you close it, it reopens using half the memory and no difference in performance

svchost too

is security killing MS?
not the lack of it
but the updates

Office 2007 opened like lightning on this machine originally
now it takes it sweet time

Andy


and those explorer crashes!
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George Ou; Wonderful points, but...
Kromaethius 28th Sep 2007
George Ou;

Good article, enjoyed reading it. Your article is very factual and of course, truthful, however unsucessfull with the tyrants of major concensus of the masses that spend all day complaining about the new operating system.

First off, I love Vista Ultimate and it utilizes my powerful computers and hardware perfectly. I've been in computers since 1985 and seen operating systems, ideas, and companies come and go. Every time Microsoft comes out with a new version, most noteworthy, since Windows 95 we've heard the same old BS from the "people". It never changes and when Windows Seven makes it's mark, things will continue and we'll hear people say, "No way, I'm sticking with Vista!"

People here seem to have a very short memory and most have been in computers for only a very short time -- Comments on this blog and others reflect this abundantly.

It is absurdly obvious to me that most people fall into several groups and they are:

1.) The MacinTards -- These zealots will say and do anything to make the efforts of Microsoft seem lackluster and inferior. But the Apple fifdom is just that, only 5% of the entire Computer IT reality. Also I might add, these Zealots are Apples biggest enemy. How can one take Apple computing seriously with these mindless diatribes spewing from the lips, or fingertips of such idiots?

2.) The OpenSource Simpletons -- Yes, akin to the MacinTards in too many ways. Same thing but only carry about 1% of the reality and girth of the PC Computing World. Yes, yes, Linux is growing, but so what, I think open source is great and a good movement that keep Microsoft and Apple in competition. Wonderful!
But again, like their brothers in fringe computing, the Zealots are Linux's biggest enemy.

3.) People who refuse to let go of their ancient PC Equipment or attempt to run Vista on bargain basement brand computers. YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR! Vista has minimum requirements, and if your machine barely makes the grade, it's simple, you get minimum performance from Vista. Do us all a favor and quit complaining cheap skate.

4.)Most of the diatribes mention reflect heavily on the ignorance of people attempting to use Vista. People do not know, spend time and heaven forbid, read information about the architecture and environment of the new operating system and yet are complacent enough to sit in the damned dark and have the idiodic prideful gumption to complain about it.

Of course, I am addressing a small minority of the PC world, but I seem to be addressing a huge majority of people here.

I too agree, Vista Ultimate is over priced, and offer little more, but I own it just the same so that gives me a little crediance in my opinion about the price and value. However, I will not go back, downgrade, or become like many of these trolls and zealots.

I've personally read Mr. Don Reisinger's FUD article and yet reflects CNet's inability to get good quality journalism and opts for sensationalism bordering on shear lunacy.
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That Vista is lackluster is the POINT
comp_indiana 28th Sep 2007
It's not a matter of Mac or Unix fans saying so. It's quite obvious from what windows
fans such as yourself are saying. It's just an extremely overdue rehash to add some
modicum of security to your mess you call windows. That and a few features are
cribbed, once again, from Apple, and as always, done very poorly. Gadgets??? Even
the naming is not original.

Grow up and stop calling people names. And, get an original idea for once in your
life. Even your 'MacinTard' name calling is a rip-off. Wintard was coined first.
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No, you've proved my point...
Kromaethius 28th Sep 2007
Yes indeedy, struck a nerve, and what group do you fit in? If you don't want to be labled, you need to grow up and be fore real. Your argument just proves my point.
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Only "tard" here would seem to be you
MacCanuck 28th Sep 2007
as proven by your questionable post in labeling and insulting anyone who doesn't share your view. If the "1962" in your nic is your birth year, IMO, you have a problem.

As has been mentioned, most of the Vista complaints are from Windows users themselves who are either happy with XP or have had legitimate problems with Vista.

It's asinine to dismiss them or try to claim they're users of other platforms just because you can't handle the truth about legitimate Vista issues.

Yes, you do need to grow up and accept that not everyone can be as perfect, or have the same opinions or experiences, as you.

And you try to claim Mac and Linux users are their own worst enemy! Rather funny.

Wait, what's even more hilarious is the incestuous bickering between Windows users like you, re Vista's quality, status and use.

Windows user - "I don't like or use Vista because... and am sticking with XP/W2K."

Rebuttal - "You're a moron, a liar and a MacTard/LinTard"

Windows user - "No, I haven't had a good experience with Vista...", or "I'm happy with XP and Vista offers nothing special for me."

Rebuttal - "You're a moron, a liar and a MacTard/LinTard"

Windows user - "But..."

Rebuttal - "You're a moron, a liar and a MacTard/LinTard... end of discussion"

Hilarious in one way, sad in another, to see Windows users eating their own, yet many others are branded "zealots". Go figure.

...
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Back in touch
Ole Man 28th Oct 2007
Do they also activate, reactivate, limit the
functionality, run WGA, install Microsoft
spyware/rootkits to monitor your activities,
update the MSWMP DRM regularly, and freeze
up when you disable any of these wonderful
activities?

If not, you're missing out on all the fun.
Just wait!

Join the conversation!

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