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Creeping totalitarianism: The NSA, personal data and you

By | March 10, 2008, 8:12am PDT

Summary: Here’s a simple rule for preventing totalitarian rule in any nation: Don’t build the systems for monitoring people’s daily lives closely in the first place, and you will not be at risk of totalitarian rulers using those systems to overwhelm individual choice. The Wall Street Journal today has a long piece on the various ways [...]

Here’s a simple rule for preventing totalitarian rule in any nation: Don’t build the systems for monitoring people’s daily lives closely in the first place, and you will not be at risk of totalitarian rulers using those systems to overwhelm individual choice. The Wall Street Journal today has a long piece on the various ways that the National Security Agency has expanded its ability to monitor individuals within the United States without a warrant. It’s a must-read, whether you think we need this kind of police agency or not.

Originally set up by President Truman to facilitate signals intelligence (wiretapping, radio monitoring and so forth) conducted against foreign governments, the NSA today can gain access to your personal communications without any need to ask permission, including:

Email, such as the to- and from-addresses, subject line content and time sent;

Web sites visited and the content of your searches;

Wireless calling, from your location and that of the person receiving the call to the length and account numbers;

Wired phone calling, including account numbers and length of call (there have been rumors for years that the first minute of calls are monitored for keywords, but this is not confirmed, because, as a national security matter, citizens aren’t supposed to know);

Financial transactions, such as your credit card use, wire transfers and deposits and withdrawals on your checking and savings accounts,

as well as the content of any transaction recorded by a computer that the NSA deems necessary for its pattern recognition analyses.

The NSA has always insisted it works scrupulously within the limits of the laws governing its behavior, but it has, like all human institutions, had lapses in its judgment. For example, during the year immediately after 9/11, NSA attempted to set up a Total Information Awareness network, which was meant to grab all data about people and their transactions and communication for analysis, but Congress prohibited any further spending on the program over civil liberties concerns. Nevertheless, the program has continued in pieces that, in total, add up to the same level of access to domestic civilian communications, as the Journal article makes clear.

Technologists must be aware of this ever-expanding net that can trap and hold their customers’ and colleagues’ data, because it is reshaping the potential for public discourse about what our country and government can and should do, as well as how we may act as individuals.

Sure, there will be commenters on this posting who write that “it’s nothing to worry about if you don’t do anything wrong.” And that may be true, but the problem with these institutions is that they will not go away when the threat of terrorism passes. Maybe you think that threat will never end, but then we must ask whether this approach to fighting terrorism has any merit. Let’s assume, for argument’s sake, that terrorism can be handled within the scope of normal police activity, as it has been since before 9/11.

Human sources of information are known to be far more valuable than data-driven analysis of massive amounts of transactional data. Yes, after an agency has a human source those data analyses can be very useful in assembling a case, though it is perfectly reasonable and very easy to get a warrant from a judge for that information based on the human source—there is no need for unbridled warrantless monitoring of the people of the United States.

You see, if we assume that most of us are law-abiding citizens, the need for unrestricted monitoring is obliterated by the logic of focused pursuit of known and suspected bad guys based on established legal procedures. Warrants before monitoring is more efficient, faster and not just an ACLU talking point, but the very foundation of limited government.

If we allow our nation to be shot through with monitoring systems, we’ll be monitored forever, because people and institutions that have been granted power seldom give it up, as we all know. They even fall prey to the temptation to abuse those powers. In Cincinnati back in the late 1980s, the power to use wiretaps overcame the good judgment of police officers who used them to listen to their spouses’ conversations and to conduct surveillance on businesses. During the 1970s, the abuse of national surveillance powers was so rife that Congress established the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act and a system of courts for providing law enforcement legal access to communications with a warrant. Today, the FISA system is under attack by those who believe we need unrestricted surveillance of Americans, as well as of potential terrorists abroad.

The trajectory of the NSA’s existence is the proof we face a serious threat to our ability to live and decide for ourselves. An agency originally chartered to monitor the communications of “foreign governments” is now monitoring individual American citizens. It is a classic case of over-reaching by government.

The NSA has worked around the decision of Congress to build its total awareness network. It is time the people made fighting that unrestricted access to their lives a campaign issue. If we don’t stop the vast spending on domestic surveillance today, it will bankrupt our government, morally and financially. We’ll be giving increasing power to bureaucrats to peak into our lives to ensure that we are living according to their whims, as every comprehensive system of public monitoring in history has produced in the past.

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Disclosure

Mitch Ratcliffe

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ratcliffe/?page_id=287

Biography

Mitch Ratcliffe

Mitch Ratcliffe is a veteran journalist, media executive and entrepreneur. He was editor of the ground-breaking Digital Media newsletter in the 1990s and a frequent contributor to ZDNet over the years. He led development of the first Web audio/video news network at ON24, sat on the board of Electric Classifieds Inc. and Match.com, and worked as an investment banker. A dedicated "portfolio career" worker, Mitch is co-founder and Chief Scientist of BuzzLogic LLC, a social network analytics and marketing communications platform developer, and works with Audible Inc. on its podcasting service, among other projects detailed here.

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???it???s nothing to worry about if you don???t do anything wrong.???
roaming 30th Apr 2008
Who decides what is wrong?

And what is considered wrong can change over time too.
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The question is
ShadeTree 10th Mar 2008
why shouldn't the NSA have the same access to information Google has? The gathering of information is vital to National Defense. It must be controlled with checks and balances to prevent abuse.
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Message has been deleted.
Tim Patterson Updated - 26th Mar 2008
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Tim
HawkCW4@... 10th Mar 2008
If what your hiding wont hurt you, what you dont know wont hurt you. And I dont think it matters much what is legal or what we appove of,,Someone will bend it sometime somewhere...
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By allowing someone to 'hold something over' your elected officials and get them to, little by little, take away your rights like they are doing today.
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Why does Google's access justify it?
Mitch Ratcliffe 10th Mar 2008
Even though Google doesn't have this information, for the
most part, unless someone uses only Google apps for all
communication, your point begs the question whether any
organization should have all this data about us. Google's
access to that data doesn't justify the NSA's access to the
same data.
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Exactly!
btljooz 10th Mar 2008
This is one slippery slope that our Founding Fathers never could have anticipated.

But why wait until now to post such an article. It's kinda like shutting the barn door after the livestock has already excaped. wink

This article and a plethora af others like it should have been popping up like mushrooms all over the net LONG ago! cool
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Yeah, I wrote some of them
Mitch Ratcliffe 10th Mar 2008
I have been writing about the NSA for ZD (in one form or
another) since 1991.... That doesn't mean we shouldn't be
reminded the threat to liberty continues to grow each time
we ignore greater surveillance.
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Kudos to you
btljooz 10th Mar 2008
for it, too. You're one of only a few that have the castinettes! cool
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...
Linux User 147560 10th Mar 2008
Uh, they were and the authors are called "Conspiracy Theorist", "Quacks" and "Loons". All because they didn't have a major label backing them. devil

It's amazing how blind people are, even with their eye wide open staring at the problem.
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True enough. n/t
btljooz 11th Mar 2008
n/t
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Your not complaining about ....
ShadeTree 26th Mar 2008
.... Google having access to private information but complaining about the NSA speeks volumes however.
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A very dumb question.
osreinstall 10th Mar 2008
Because the NSA is part of the government that you cannot opt out of. I could choose Yahoo or Live Search to spy on me or block all their cookies and keep them mostly in the dark. You cannot do this with the government unless you use Navajo smoke signals. So the reason is mainly they must not allowed to do it because you have no choice. Fear governments for companies you can walk away from.
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phone calls and e-mail. What?
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Are you sure?
ShadeTree 26th Mar 2008
Do you know for a fact that they don't?
The most important reason that comes to my mind, is that the NSA hopes to use that info to prosecute people, whereas Google is using it for marketing purposes---a huge difference.

It's all about the "INTENT".
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The problem with your statement...
philpenn 13th Mar 2008
... is that intentions are not static. Whatever their intentions today, they may be very different tomorrow. I think it is very dangerous to have any entity - Company, Government, or individual - to have that much capability to monitor me. No matter how benign today, tomorrow could be different.
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A simple answer:
theillmunkeys 11th Mar 2008
The simplest answer, of course, is that I can, at my whim, revoke Google's access to any of my future data. If Google abuses my trust, I will no longer do any future business with them and many others will follow close behind me (for fear Google would do the same to them) and Google would more than likely be ruined. The same can not be said of our government. If it abuses this information, I have little to no recourse should the government not acknowledge the fact they did anything abusive.

The checks and balances that once limited the NSA are being destroyed piece by piece in the name of safety.
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If google only got ....
ShadeTree 26th Mar 2008
... the information from using there application that would be true. The only way you can avoid appearing in a google database is to not use the Internet, don't have a phone, etc, etc.
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At least, living in a democracy, you can change "drunken puppets" every few years (to appear unstable enough that they *might* press the button).

The problem with over-monitoring is the "one thing leads to another" scenario, whereby you, the innocent person, can be made to appear guilty from the selection of appropriate "positives" from all of the information - a bit like how The Bible Code can be made true with enough computation.

Also, how do you refute such covertly gained "evidence?"
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You don't.
Jeff Dickey 11th Mar 2008
How do you refute such covertly gained "evidence?"

You don't. You can't. Because not only is the "evidence" itself covert, the means by which it was obtained and the process (if any) by which it was judged actionable (by whom?) is also covert.

It's the old "joke", "I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you" writ large upon what was once a nation of laws.

If "national security" is whatever some unaccountable person (or unaccountable organization made up of such unaccountable persons) is, then our nation can never be secure. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? The "nation" (i.e., those who control the political and economic mechanisms of the State) may think themselves "secure", but without transparency and accountability, the "security" mechanisms will eventually "overreach".

Once upon a time, long, long ago, there was the "Free World" standing against the "totalitarian Evil", and the "Free World", "led" by what was once the United States of America, spoke long and loudly against such monitoring and control of citizen subjects by their "evel empire" government, while implementing large chunks of it themselves. For the past several years, the de facto definition of the "Free World" has changed - if totalitarianism is the antithesis of freedom, then the ex-Constitutional republic of the "United States of America" need no longer apply.

We want our country back.
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Everyone remembers the first part but the actual declaration is as follows. Liberty and the pursuit of happiness entail both the letter and spirit of the Bill of Rights.

That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
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A link would
btljooz 11th Mar 2008
have been nice to have. Or several.

What bob is talking about is the Right to Revolution:

http://www.altavista.com/web/results?itag=ody&q=Right+of+Revolution&kgs=1&kls=0

His "quote" comes from the Declaration of Independence:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_rebellion

The Declaration of Independence

http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/index.htm

From:

http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/
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Point taken NT
bob@... 14th Mar 2008
nt
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Even if we can remove the "drunken puppets," we never get
the chance to clean house in the agencies that have access to
technologies that can be abused. Bureaucracy insulates these
agencies from accountability.

We need to draw the line beyond the names of our elected
leaders and actually hold the spy agencies to the limits the
Constitution requires.
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The Constitution
Tim Patterson 10th Mar 2008
It seems that many government officials spend much of their trying to find ways around the Constitution to reach their goals.

Great job bringing this to the forefront Mr. Ratcliffe. Sadly I don't think the vast majority of Americans are paying attention.
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Of course they're not paying attention
Jeff Dickey 11th Mar 2008
The "vast majority of Americans" are much more aware of the latest goings-on on "reality shows" and "soap operas" than anything "their" government does in their name. Plausible deniability, "national security", "need to know" and all that.

Of course, anybody who couldn't see at least the likelihood of this coming after the dismemberment of what was once the finest public education system humanity has ever known, beginning with California Proposition 13 in 1978.
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MR. RATCLIFFE
NightLife6 10th Mar 2008
Have you read: A5-0264/2001 EU Report on the ECHELON system? If so, then you know how long this has been going on. If not, then I suggest you obtain a copy from the EU archive and read it...
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Misidentifying the threats
frgough 10th Mar 2008
is an even surer way to not notice creeping totalitarianism.

While you sit here and fret over the NSA obtaining personal
data, the Supreme Court in California just ruled
homeschooling in that state essentially illegal. In Michigan,
restaurants are prohibited from allowing patrons to smoke.
You can't serve certain kinds of food in New York. Thanks
to the Supreme Court, you can't name a candidate by name
in a political ad 30 days before an election. The state can
now take your property away from you for any reason at
all as long as they can give some generic handwave about
"greater community good." The state can mandate your
land must remain idle if some bureaucrat determines an
endangered animal lives on it, or it has standing water for
so many days of the year. If you discover fossils on your
land, the state can take your land away from you. In 4
years, the state will tell you what kinds of light bulbs you
can and cannot buy. The Supreme Court has ruled that the
police can stop you arbitrarily and demand identification
for any reason they see fit.

And you worry that the NSA might have a database
somewhere containing your email correspondence.
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Some counter-points.
theillmunkeys 10th Mar 2008
Uhm.

The Supreme Court did not rule homeschooling is illegal, it ruled children had to be taught by someone who is certified in teaching/tutoring. Go figure. Quit reading sensationalist headlines.

I'm not sure if you realize it, but second hand smoke kills. I'm not for outright banning of smoking, but instead limiting it to places that cater to individuals 18 and greater. Want to serve a minor, no smoking in your establishment. I'm more concerned about the laws restricting smoking in your own home.

I would like to see evidence on arbitrarily stopping citizens. In all cases I know, only drivers are required to supply identification to authorities. If you're not operating a vehicle, then no identification needs to be on your person and authorities can't even request it. (This could potentially change with the idea of a Real ID.)

An NSA database isn't more frightening than the ability of the state to steal my land, but the abuse of the database is much more likely than the state abusing its right to take my land. This makes the NSA database much more dangerous.
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Thank you
frgough 10th Mar 2008
for pointing out how totalitarianism occurs.

The state determines what is required to teach children.
You celebrate it. This is how totalitarianism occurs.

You are told second hand smoke kills (it doesn't), so you
feel morally justified in telling people how they can
associate with others (if all of them are smoking and the
workers don't care, why should you?). This is how
totalitarianism occurs.

Regarding your last point: State taking of land happens
NOW all the time. NSA abuse of gathered information may
or may not be happening.

Again it's about whacked out priorities.

The secret to effective totalitarianism is to get the people
to willingly embrace it.

Lie to them about global warming and they'll let you tell
them what cars they can drive, what light bulbs they can
use. Give them socialized medicine and they'll let you tell
them what foods to eat and how much they need to
exercise.

The NSA gathering personal information is far down the
totem pole of dangers to our freedom. The
environmentalist movement is number one. They are
actively restricting real freedoms every day.
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Amen!
btljooz 10th Mar 2008
Thank you for getting to the "Add your opinion" button before me!!!
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...
Linux User 147560 10th Mar 2008
?for pointing out how totalitarianism occurs.?

?The state determines what is required to teach children.
You celebrate it. This is how totalitarianism occurs.
?
Source
?...The Second District Court of Appeal ruled that California law requires parents to send their children to full-time public or private schools or have them taught by credentialed tutors at home.
Some homeschoolers are affiliated with private or charter schools, like the Longs, but others fly under the radar completely. Many homeschooling families avoid truancy laws by registering with the state as a private school and then enroll only their own children.
Yet the appeals court said state law has been clear since at least 1953, when another appellate court rejected a challenge by homeschooling parents to California's compulsory education statutes. Those statutes require children ages 6 to 18 to attend a full-time day school, either public or private, or to be instructed by a tutor who holds a state credential for the child's grade level.
"California courts have held that ... parents do not have a constitutional right to homeschool their children," Justice H. Walter Croskey said in the 3-0 ruling issued on Feb. 28. "Parents have a legal duty to see to their children's schooling under the provisions of these laws."
Parents can be criminally prosecuted for failing to comply, Croskey said.
"A primary purpose of the educational system is to train school children in good citizenship, patriotism and loyalty to the state and the nation as a means of protecting the public welfare," the judge wrote, quoting from a 1961 case on a similar issue.
?

While I do NOT agree with the ruling, the simple fact is this has been a law since 1953. And what is happening is a judge is upholding a law on the books.

?You are told second hand smoke kills (it doesn't), so you feel morally justified in telling people how they can associate with others (if all of them are smoking and the workers don't care, why should you?). This is how totalitarianism occurs.?

You can't be serious!? In the face of all the evidence that PROVES second hand smoke DOES in FACT kill?

Article #1
Article

As for the latter half of your statement, I have a right to work in as safe an environment as possible. And if that means the smokers have to walk 50 feet away from the building so I can do so, then so be it. What gives them the right to endanger my life and health? You must be a smoker, so if that is the case then are you going to pay for my health care when I get ill due to your smoking?

?Regarding your last point: State taking of land happens NOW all the time. NSA abuse of gathered information may or may not be happening.?

Other than the IRS (another illegal entity within the government) taking property due to tax evasion and such, post one legitimate source of someone losing their land recently to the government for arbitrary reasons.

?Again it's about whacked out priorities.?

Yes, you do have some.

?The secret to effective totalitarianism is to get the people to willingly embrace it.?

Finally something we can agree on. Well at least you have some level of intellect in that thick cromagnon skull.

?Lie to them about global warming and they'll let you tell them what cars they can drive, what light bulbs they can use. Give them socialized medicine and they'll let you tell them what foods to eat and how much they need to exercise.?

WOW! Just about everything you posted here has a positive side to it that far out weighs the negatives!

?Lie to them about global warming and they'll let you tell them what cars they can drive,?
Let's see here, well global warming is a fact. And by not only reducing emissions out put but increasing economy we can make a diminishing commodity last longer AND help to cut down on pollution that harms us, the environment AND our buildings! Wow!

?what light bulbs they can use.?

Common sense and again long term gains on so many levels.

? Give them socialized medicine ?

Socialized medicine is pretty nice actually! I had access to socialized medicine while I was in the military. Got excellent care too. And now that I am married to a Catalonian woman, I get socialized medical care in Spain when I am there, should I need it. And I have needed it when I broke some bones in an accident. Cost me $40.00 total for everything. And I got excellent care.

?and they'll let you tell them what foods to eat and how much they need to exercise.?

If it's fast food then that it bad, that's how they keep you FAT, DUMB and LETHARGIC! If it's healthy food, then I really can't see the problem? I mean if you eat healthy and exercise... then you won't need a lot of medical care! Wow! What a novel concept?! Take accountability for your own health by eating healthy and exercising! I see a doctor once a year and that is for a physical. I rarely get sick, rarely get hurt, can work longer and be more productive than my co-workers and cause less of a strain on the entire system because I eat healthy and exercise! Get a clue would you?

?The NSA gathering personal information is far down the totem pole of dangers to our freedom. The environmentalist movement is number one. They are actively restricting real freedoms every day.?

Your blind hatred for environmentalist's is astounding and completely confusing. If anything I have seen them save a lot of precious lands and wildlife so that future generations can enjoy the same beauty we are now. What a selfish little boy you are. devil
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Second hand smoke
Techknowledgie 11th Mar 2008
Your irrational fear of second hand smoke is no different than Monk's fear of germs. Seriously - you and your kind need therapy. Yes, I'm a smoker, but I have always tried to be a considerate one. I go out of my way to keep my smoke away from others, but your thinking that if you happen to walk by me outside and catch a wiff of my smoke it's going to kill you is absurd and mentally unhealthy... for you.
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...
Linux User 147560 11th Mar 2008
I am an ex-smoker and can't stand the smell of cigarettes nor do I appreciate people smoking around me. So I avoid places where people smoke and enjoy the fact that I live in California where it's mandatory in many places, including where I work, that no one may smoke within 25 feet of doors or ventilation intakes. devil
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RE: ...
btljooz 11th Mar 2008
There's nothing worse than a "reformed abuser of insert vice of choice here. devil

They ALWAYS swing too far to the opposite direction! LOL! :^O
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It's Called Eminent Domain
trid2bnrml@... 11th Mar 2008
"Other than the IRS (another illegal entity within the government) taking property due to tax evasion and such, post one legitimate source of someone losing their land recently to the government for arbitrary reasons"

In the KELO v. New London decision (eminent domain)

Under the banner of economic development, all private property is now vulnerable to being taken and transferred to another private owner, so long as it might be upgraded--i.e., given to an owner who will use it in a way that the legislature deems more beneficial to the public--in the process.

What is not "arbitrary" about that?
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...
Linux User 147560 11th Mar 2008
I saw the posts on eminent domain and followed up on that. Something I had forgotten about... and obviously something that is being abused.

Thank you devil
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Alas, eminent domain does happen and can be abused. I'm hard pressed to come up with a reason how it could be used in a justifiable/moral way.

Global warming is by itself a fact - how much humanity impacts it is up for debate at this point. However, air/water quality is directly influenced by car output, factory output, and various other human factors. So, I'm for pro-actively pushing technology away from oil and coal and all sorts of other things.

Oddly, I agree w/ frgough on socialized medicine. Its crap. The cost of health care can be controlled in other, more meaningful ways (see frivolous lawsuits, see insurance companies/medicare paying "agreed upon" percentages and the healthcare instutions having to either swallow the rest or force payment from the patient, see ecetera).

Your food argument is true (eating healthy and exercising does lower one's health costs) but the government shouldn't be able to mandate how much I exercise or what foods I consume. If I want to eat an Oreo, then I'm going to go get it. That's called improving my mental health by giving my tastebuds something to be joyful about.
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...
Linux User 147560 12th Mar 2008
?Alas, eminent domain does happen and can be abused. I'm hard pressed to come up with a reason how it could be used in a justifiable/moral way.?

The only way I see is during a time of war, such as WWII. Otherwise I agree.

?Global warming is by itself a fact - how much humanity impacts it is up for debate at this point. However, air/water quality is directly influenced by car output, factory output, and various other human factors. So, I'm for pro-actively pushing technology away from oil and coal and all sorts of other things.?

No arguments from me on this topic. I am like you, pushing for alternatives while realizing that there are some cases where fossil fuel is the only real solution at this time. And in that case increasing it's efficiency while reducing it's impact during combustion is paramount.

?Oddly, I agree w/ frgough on socialized medicine. Its crap. The cost of health care can be controlled in other, more meaningful ways (see frivolous lawsuits, see insurance companies/medicare paying "agreed upon" percentages and the healthcare instutions having to either swallow the rest or force payment from the patient, see ecetera).?

I don't. Having received socialized medical care for a good portion of my life, and still getting it when in Spain with my wife or even here in the states when I go to the VA hospitals, I have to say it sure is nice not having to worry about whether my insurance will cover me or not. The ability to receive medical care and only focus on the health issue and not worry about co-pay or deductible or whether it's covered or in network or not, well it really makes getting better easier and faster. The current health care system is not for our good but to ensure a small group of people profit from us. While I realize many do not like him or his movies, I would recommend watching Sicko by Michael Moore.

?Your food argument is true (eating healthy and exercising does lower one's health costs) but the government shouldn't be able to mandate how much I exercise or what foods I consume. If I want to eat an Oreo, then I'm going to go get it. That's called improving my mental health by giving my tastebuds something to be joyful about.?

Not say you can't and this is an area I have really delved into since I don't eat fast food ever. I rarely eat out and am very selective about the foods I do eat. That's my personal choice that was developed while I was a young lad living on a cattle ranch. We always ate fresh and healthy, so it's second nature to me. Not to say I don't enjoy an oreo (or 10) with milk or some other sweet confection, I just make it a rare treat so as to truly enjoy it. devil
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State/Federal taking of land
seanferd 10th Mar 2008
Do you like highways? Biggest arbitrary land grab of recent history. For "national security" no less. Or was that subsidizing the automotive industry?
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Your welcome.
theillmunkeys 11th Mar 2008
I'd like to see any you point to any form of government which does not legislate education to some degree. I can only think of, well, anarchy. Here's the kicker: I'm not fond of the state declaring parent's unfit to teach their own children because I am of the belief that the state has proved itself to be an unfit teacher. Catch-22, that.

Once, we didn't think smoking caused cancer. How those campaigns by the cigarette industry fooled the world. Inhaling smoke kills. Fact of life. You have to die some way - so I'm not particularly miffed that smokers smoke. I just wish it didn't have to smell so darned bad.

A states power to steal land is infinitely small - too much abuse, and the populace will instantly begin to fight back. It is not an insidious power.

The power to spy however is hidden. It is insidious. I will throw your own words back at you: the secret to effective totalitarianism is to get the people to willingly embrace it. We have begun to willingly embrace spying on American citizens for "safety." Once, we shuddered at the thought of some device spying through our clothes to see what it was we carried - today, we are almost demanding the technology. I'd point out more freedoms for the sake of "safety" but I think I'm getting overly verbose.

The global warming debate is one of those great unprovable quandries: we won't know for years our effect on the world. However, one should not ignore that pollution is a direct cause of overpopulation, too many cars, and too many factories (plus, probably, tons of other things). See China's cities (and rivers). They have to wear masks (and drink bottled water on most occasions). Technology improvements to lessen our need on oil/coal should continue even should global warming prove false. We'll have to rid ourselves of our dependence before we rid ourselves of our supply anyway.

We'd probably agree on socialized medicine. Its crap.

I am naturally skeptic, which is both a great strength (I don't fall for crap easily) and a great weakness (Sometimes, one questions the thing so long, one is only questioning and not actively doing).
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RE: Counter-points
btljooz 10th Mar 2008
Home Schooling in California:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2008-03-09-home-schooling_N.htm

As a non-smoker who has lost a spouse to smoking related factors ( but mostly bad medicine which is another topic altogether) and has trouble breathing the smoke of certain brands and types of tobbacco products, I strongly feel that separate smoking areas are perfectly fine in any environment. By giving the government the right to legislate smokers' civil liberties any further than that only opens the door(s) for 'gov' to infringe upon ALL others' civil liberties. Where will it end? EH confused Therefore, we all need to be careful about what we allow and/or even mandate our government to do and how intrusive we allow them to be in our personal lives...no matter what our physical location at any given time is. This "it's for the children" bovine feces [sic] is identical to the cry of "the fight against terrorism"!!! angry

I dare anyone who has a lick of sense to walk out of their domicile (owned or rented) without ID on their person. YES, you CAN in deed be stopped and asked for ID by the police in the United States! It's been this way for DECADES!!! As a child (in the 1960s) I can recall my parents being stopped on local roads at so called "Checkpoints" to, supposedly, make sure they had drivers licenses, check vehicle registrations and other types of searches. Fortunately, that didn't last for very long but you get the idea if you have any grey matter at all. (UNfortunately, it looks like this is going to be a nation-wide thing, soon.) In addition to which, why is it that DMVs provide Picture IDs, and have for decades, for those who choose not to drive? confused Why is it that practically as soon as a baby is born its parents must register for a Social Security card for the child? confused As for Real ID I suggest taking a look at this:

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/leavitt/20050509.html

>>>An NSA database isn't more frightening than the ability of the state to steal my land, but the abuse of the database is much more likely than the state abusing its right to take my land. This makes the NSA database much more dangerous.

Yeh? Only because they haven't taken YOURS...YET!!! Or do you have any to take? confused It's happening at an alarming rate:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/09/26/60minutes/main575343.shtml

HINT:

http://www.altavista.com/web/results?q=%22Eminent+Domain%22
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Re: RE: Counter-points
none none 10th Mar 2008
Just to bring that 60-Minutes article up to date:

The guy kept his house. The "blight" designation was rescinded. I think the mayor and city council took a beating from voters.

The supreme court case from a year or two ago that made it constitutional to use eminent domain to facilitate private wealth-building was followed less by seizures than by angry townsfolk booting out municipal politicians who even equivocated about the issue. Many local ordinances were updated to prohibit the use of eminent domain this way.

That's a good thing.

We angry townsfolk don't have the option to respond in like fashion to the secret fed agencies that are watching us. We are not even allowed to know about them. That's why I think the NSA is worse than the Supreme Court or "environmentalsts."






happy
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More, more, more.
theillmunkeys 11th Mar 2008
You're linking to a sensationalist article. Parents can still be teachers/tutors/what have you. The state is just asking to prove that you have some educational ability yourself. I'm not sure I agree just yet because one would be hard-pressed to prove the state itself is a competent educator.

Oddly enough, I am a homeowner. Crazy. My parent's always thought I'd stick to apartments and condo's because I never like yard work. Still don't, but alas, the good with the bad.

I agree, stealing land is happening more frequently. I understand the risk, but frankly, I believe that if it happens too frequently the government will be hard pressed to keep its population in check. At least, I hope. We Americans have become fairly passive compared to our past. However, I think the fairly "small" increments of freedom the NSA gobbles up almost weekly now, go pretty much unnoticed by the vast majority of the population.

Actually, one can revoke their own social security number. Not recommended (hard getting a driver's license and federal assistance) but it can be done.

IDs are not required. No law, no go. Because people in authority ask for it doesn't mean you're required to comply. You might suffer something for your refusal to produce the identification, but ultimately the police could put nothing on you (unless, of course, you did something stupid like resisted and punched the cop). A Real ID would pretty much change everything, but then, I'm against the Real ID pretty vehemently.
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How is pointing out one threat misidentifying?
Mitch Ratcliffe 10th Mar 2008
frgough -- these are concerns, too. I don't see how pointing
out the NSA is violating the laws that created and regulate its
behavior is in any way dismissing these other issues. But I
can only write about one thing at a time. I worry that
politicians will use that database to find reasons to censure,
imprison or otherwise abuse our rights. It's as simple as that.
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The difference is
frgough 10th Mar 2008
You are pointing out possible future problems instead of
focusing on actual, currently happening real and tangible
erosions of freedom occurring around you at this very
moment.

In other words, your freedoms are being eroded NOW, yet
you sound the klarion call on the NSA, and NOT the
environmentalist movement (which is behind most of these
tangible, actual and real losses of freedom happening at
this very moment.
The NSA is conducting domestic surveillance of Americans
now. It's not a hypothetical problem. We've opened the
door to totalitarianism and walked right in.

That the environmentalist movement is behind "most" of
the "tangible, actual and real losses of freedom" is one of
the silliest statements I've seen in a long time. Of home
schooling and smoking of the issues you raised, for
example, I'd think that there is a specious connection to
environmental concerns, at best.
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You both are missing the basic point.
philpenn 13th Mar 2008
There are many threats to our personal freedom. In order to maintain it, we are personally responsible to defend it against all comers, foreign or domestic, individual or institutional, governmental or private, even right wing wacko or left wing wacko. I applaud all of the very revealing posts on real issues going on around us. I also worry about the ones that are closed minded. As an example, I would never support legislation that censors pornography even though I am morally opposed to it. That legislation could be turned to censor something i care about deeply in the future.

We spend way to much time trying to legislate the behavior of others while screaming about people interfering with our rights. If your don't want a law used against you, make sure it is never written because as sure as power corrupts, someday it will.
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Your Constitutional rights are
somewhereinCA 11th Mar 2008
being eroded *NOW* by the actions of the NSA. You and your family are undergoing continuous government search without a warrant.

The un-Constitutional warrantless searches can and *are* being used in gathering evidence for the

"tangible, actual and real losses of freedom happening at this very moment."

NSA warrantless search "evidence" is already being used by police in non-security cases. It's already being abused.

You may not currently be doing anything illegal, but who knows what may be illegal tomorrow?

Why is it that so many people do not care a hoot about the Constitutional right "against warrantless searches"? Warrantless searches was a key grievance for Our Founding Fathers.
Who decides what is wrong?

And what is considered wrong can change over time too.

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