How Microsoft puts your data at risk

By | August 8, 2007, 4:17pm PDT

Summary: 56% of data loss due to system & hardware problems - Ontrack Data loss is painful and all too common. Why? Because your file system stinks. Microsoft’s NTFS (used in XP & Vista) with its de facto monopoly is the worst offender. But Apple and Linux aren’t any better. Everyone knows what the problems are AND [...]

56% of data loss due to system & hardware problems - Ontrack
Data loss is painful and all too common. Why? Because your file system stinks. Microsoft’s NTFS (used in XP & Vista) with its de facto monopoly is the worst offender. But Apple and Linux aren’t any better.

Everyone knows what the problems are AND high-end systems fixed many of them years ago. Yet only one desktop vendor is moving forward, and they aren’t based in Redmond. Here’s the scoop.

Y2k got fixed. File systems didn’t.
That may sound harsh. But with all the lip-service paid to innovation - especially in Redmond - you’d think that sometimes we’d see some, especially in core technology. After all, more than half of all data loss is caused by system and hardware problems that the file system could recover from - but doesn’t.

Instead we’re using 20 year old technology that, like the 2 digit year - which led to the Y2K drama - was designed for a world of scarce storage, small disks and limited CPU power. Unlike Y2K though, we are living with, and paying for, these compromises every day with lost data, corrupted files, lame RAID solutions and hinky backup products that seem to fail almost as often as they work.

File systems? I should care because . . .
You rely on your file system every time you save or retrieve a document. It is the file system that keeps track of all the information on your computer. If the file system barfs, your data is the victim. And you get to pick up the pieces.

As documented in my last two posts (see How data gets lost and 50 ways to lose your data) PC and commodity server storage stacks are prone to data corruption and loss, many of them silent. Only your file system is positioned to see and fix these problems. It doesn’t, of course, but it could.

And you enterprise data center folks, smirking over the junk consumers get, don’t be too smug. Some of your costly high-end storage servers have NTFS or Linux FS’s under the hood as well. And no, RAID doesn’t fix these problems. According to Kroll Ontrack, only a quarter of data loss instances are due to human error - and many of those errors happen in the panic after a loss is discovered.

Hey, I thought machines were supposed to be good at keeping track of stuff? Only if they are built to.

IRON = Internal RObustNess
I came across the fascinating PhD thesis of Vijayan Prabhakaran, IRON File Systems which analyzes how five commodity journaling file systems - NTFS, ext3, ReiserFS, JFS and XFS - handle storage problems.

In a nutshell he found that the all the file systems have

. . . failure policies that are often inconsistent, sometimes buggy, and generally inadequate in their ability to recover from partial disk failures.

Dr. Prabhakaran will see you now
In a mere 155 pages of lucid prose he lays out his analysis of the interaction between hosts and local file systems. It is a clever analysis, especially of the proprietary and unpublished NTFS.

First, inject a lot of errors
Dr. Prabhakaran built an error-injection framework that enabled him to control what kind of errors the file system would see so he could document how the FS handled them. These errors include:

  • Failure type: read or write? If read: latent sector fault or block corruption. Does the machine crash before or after certain block failures”
  • Block type: directory block; super block? Specific inode or block numbers could be specified as well.
  • Transient or permanent fault?

So how did NTFS fare?
Since NTFS is proprietary, Dr. Prabhakaran couldn’t get as deeply into it as the open-source systems. While NTFS doesn’t implement the strongest form of journaling, he found it pretty reliable at letting applications know when an I/O error has occurred. NTFS also retries I/O requests more than the Linux file systems, which, compared to the dearth of retries on Linux, is a good thing.

NTFS sanity checking is also stronger than some. Yet he notes that

NTFS surprisingly does not always perform sanity checking; for example, a corrupted block pointer can point to important system structures and hence corrupt them when the block pointed to is updated.

Translation: Bad Thing.

General screw-ups
Dr. Prabhakaran offered a set of general conclusions about the commodity file systems including NTFS:

  • “Detection and Recovery: Bugs are common. We also found numerous bugs across the file systems we tested, some of which are serious, and many of which are not found by other sophisticated techniques.”
  • “Detection: Sanity checking is of limited utility. Many of the file systems use sanity checking . . . . However, modern disk failure modes such as misdirected and phantom writes lead to cases where . . . [a] bad block thus passes sanity checks, is used, and can corrupt the file system. Indeed, all file systems we tested exhibit this behavior.”
  • “Recovery: Automatic repair is rare. Automatic repair is used rarely by the file systems; . . . most of the file systems require manual intervention . . . (i.e., running fsck).”
  • “Detection and Recovery: Redundancy is not used. . . . [P]erhaps most importantly, while virtually all file systems include some machinery to detect disk failures, none of them apply redundancy to enable recovery from such failures.”

Dr. Prabhakaran found that ALL the file systems shared

. . . ad hoc failure handling and a great deal of illogical inconsistency in failure policy . . . such inconsistency leads to substantially different detection and recovery strategies under similar fault scenarios, resulting in unpredictable and often undesirable fault-handling strategies.
. . .
We observe little tolerance to transient failures; . . . . none of the file systems can recover from partial disk failures, due to a lack of in-disk redundancy.

How doomed are we?
Pretty doomed. But there is some hope.

There are well known techniques, such as disk scrubbing, check summing, and more robust ECC used in high-end systems that could be added to our systems. Not rocket science.

Young Dr. Prabhakaran now works at Microsoft Research. Perhaps someone up in Redmond will reach out to him to see how NTFS’s aging architecture might be enhanced.

Of course, Microsoft is fine with the status quo until it threatens market share. Internet Explorer’s innovation hiatus after crushing Netscape is a fine example.

So it is good news that Apple has two storage initiatives that will put pressure on Redmond to clean up its act.

  • Time Machine is a beautifully crafted automatic backup utility in Mac OS X.V (Leopard). While it doesn’t solve the data corruption problems that I assume HFS+ has as well, it does make it very easy for regular folks to backup and recover their data. I think small business types will love it.
  • ZFS is the new open-source file system from Sun that Apple is incorporating into OS X. I expect the port won’t be complete for another year, but ZFS is the first file system to offer end-to-end data integrity that can detect and correct such devious problems as phantom writes.

See Apple’s new kick-butt file system for more on ZFS.

The Storage Bits take
As noted in “How data gets lost” more than half of all data loss is caused by system and hardware problems. A high quality file system that took better care of our data could eliminate many of those failures.

The industry knows how to fix the problems. The question is when. With a resurgent Mac pushing ZFS maybe Redmond will see the light sooner, rather than later, and dramatically increase the reliability of all our systems.

It will be interesting to see how Microsofties spin inferior data integrity once ZFS is the OS X default file system. Especially to the enterprise folks for whom data integrity is the ne plus ultra of the data center.

Comments welcome, of course. Itching to read a well done CompSci PhD. thesis? Here’s a link to IRON File Systems. Enjoy.

Update: based on the first couple of commenters, who seem to believe that data loss is a figment of my imagination, I gave more prominence to the factual basis of data loss and added a couple of short quotes from the thesis. I single out Microsoft because their negligence impacts more people than any other company. Maybe, someday, Microsoft will start measuring success in terms of software quality instead of market share.

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Topics

Robin Harris has been messing with computers for over 30 years and selling and marketing data storage for over 20 in companies large and small.

Disclosure

Robin Harris

Robin Harris is a president of TechnoQWAN, a consulting and analyst firm in northern Arizona. He also writes StorageMojo.com, a blog which accepts advertising from companies in the storage industry, and has a 25 year history with IT vendors. He has many industry contacts, many of whom are friends and all of whom he has opinions about. Robin has relationships with many companies in the technology industry. Every company he writes about may have sought to influence his opinion through carefully-crafted marketing messages and self-serving white papers, gifts ranging from desk calendars, t-shirts, lunches and trips as well as analyst or consulting assignments. He also invests in some technology companies. He may accept payment for services in stock as well. Robin discloses financial investments in or client relationships with companies named in Storage Bits. To help readers sort out the gold from the dross in his writings, Robin tries to communicate his reasons as clearly as he can. If you agree, you are intelligent and discerning. If you disagree, well, you disagree. In all cases, Robin encourages readers to subject everything they read, see or hear on the internet or from politicians to some simple questions: * What assumptions are implicit in the world view and judgments of the author? * What, if any, is the factual basis for the opinions the author expresses? * Is it reasonable, logical and clear? Your critical faculties: use ‘em or lose ‘em!

Biography

Robin Harris

Harris has been messing with computers for over 30 years and selling and marketing data storage for over 20 in companies large and small. He introduced a couple of multi-billion dollar storage products (DLT, the first Fibre Channel array) to market, as well as a many smaller ones. Earlier he spent 10 years marketing servers and networks. After leaving corporate life he founded TechnoQWAN, a consulting and analyst firm. He also developed StorageMojo into one of the top storage industry blogs.

Robin writes, consults, coaches and lives among the mountains of northern Arizona.

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RE: How Microsoft puts your data at risk
ProfQuatermass 12th Feb
Until we shield our computers from faulty Mains power, random radio noise injected from external wires, oh and shield from radiation particles from outer space which causes random bit errors in memory. Can we get close to a external error free system.

Then the last hurdle, bug free hardware and software can be looked at!

NTFS loses data. Fact of life.
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Yawn
tonymcs@... 8th Aug 2007
Talk about troll FUD.

As a computer user since the 60s, all that has happened is that both hardware and software have become more reliable. You manage to mention NTFS disparagingly even when it outperforms the other file system and with FAT32 is the most commonly used file system on the planet. It's one thing to build theoretical models, but where is the data that suggest we are losing information all over the place?

And of course Apple (again rebadging someone else's technology) is going to save the day. Just like it's totally unexploitable operating system and it's one-button mouse. Well it's still not here is it? Frankly, I prefer the expertise of a company whose OS is used by over 90% of the world to one that borrows other people's work for their small audience.

How about some facts about all the data we are losing?
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Contributr
as reported by Ontrack? That data not good enough for you?

If you are as experienced as you say - which I doubt - should know that Murphy's
Law is operative here.

Nor was this a theoretical exercise: he did real fault injection and found real
problems. And Microsoft Research hired him based on that work. I thought you
respected Microsoft?

And no, Apple won't save the day, but competition will. Isn't that the American
way? Seems to work in other industries.

Robin
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Competition????
peterbk@... 9th Aug 2007
I am sorry, but I do not understand this comment, that competition takes care. There is no competition, and MS has taken care of that. Whatever they see as competition, they buy and kill off. Thats because the legislation is deficient, which was not good enough to forestall one company to monopolise the OS market. With all the cash (some 50 Billion!), this monopolising company was not able to make ONE OS that fulfills the criteria of being anywhere near safe. Competition, sorry, that is a fairytale.
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hmmm. Did you see this TITLE!!
xuniL_z 9th Aug 2007
Far as I can tell, Apple is not on Microsoft's shopping list, nor do I think it's for sale. Same for SUN. As for Linux...I do not see Microsoft buying off "Linux". Who does that leave? That is the competition. With the over 7 year lock down of Microsoft, the gate has been swinging wide open. I think some substantial ground has been gained. And Vista is not stopping it from continuing so far. I'm not sure I understand your point? Things don't change overnight, but surely you can see the climate has begun to change. Microsoft has taken a beating from the press...look at this article alone, all vendors have the same problems or WORSE and he puts Microsoft in the Title as the Offender for the causual browsers to digest.....and they are given zero slack by anyone. Even when they are doing what's right. The funniest thing I've heard was the blog on how IE running on Vista it TOO Secure. yeah, ok...after years of getting battered over security (that wasn't really any worse than any competitor) they try to fix that and they are TOO securue.


I wish the bloggers who are trying to do their part to dent Microsoft at every chance would just come out and say it. This story was obvious, but some are more subtle and I think it's time even bloggers just stated their stance.
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Not entirely true
mds_z 10th Aug 2007
Granted, Microsoft has much of the market and that won't change in the near future. But they certainly upgraded IE from 6 to 7 in response to the challenge from Firefox. And Linux has certainly had an impact on their behavior, if not always positively.

An advantage to open source is that it's tough for Microsoft to actually buy anything. Which forces them to other methods, like the nebulous claims of patent infringement. But if could allow one to infer that they're nervous.
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Is this your only exposure ...
xuniL_z 10th Aug 2007
to business? It's a given and something that really doesn't require anything beyond a highschool education, at most, to realize that every business in every industry, from car makers to plumbers, have to be concerned about their competition and resond to it in some manner. Those who don't are what? Out of business very quickly, yes. I'm not sure of the point of your post other than stating the extremely obvious.
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My only wish . . .
chuckgosh@... 14th Aug 2007
I just wish that too-many-billion-dollar Bill would take one of those billions and fix Windows.
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Gee...
jasonp@... 9th Aug 2007
It's a good thing hardware and software are perfect now. We don't have to worry about software bugs or faulty hardware causing data loss because Tony here doesn't believe that data loss even occurs. He takes two seemingly valid points...NTFS outperforms FAT32 and is the most commonly used file system on the planet...and jumps to the wild conclusion that it doesn't have problems. And he tries to call someone else a troll... What a laugh. Maybe someone else can figure out exactly where it was that the author claimed Apple was coming in to "save the day". All he said was that Apple's initiatives were likely to spur innovation at Microsoft since competition is the driver of innovation.

Now, if you want facts about data we are losing, here a little real life facts for you... Since 2000 I have been directly involved with a company that has lost data from their Exchange server on 3 occasions. Twice were a result of hardware failure and once was a result of "data corruption due to unknown reasons" per MS support. The scope of the problem was mitigated after the first incident of data loss by initiating incremental backups of the email system several times during day. Problem is, the loss of even an hours worth of emails can be devastating to a company that relies on it as a communications vehicle (and these days, who doesn't?). One thing to note is that it's not the billion dollar a year company that typically sees this kind of problem...it's the small company with revenues of less than say $10 million. They don't have the resources to tackle problems like this that big corporations typically have.
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It doesn't out perform ReiserFS 4
Linux User 147560 9th Aug 2007
While not easy to set-up initially, it works awesome and with the module plug in ability it's even more powerful and flexible than NTFS could dream of.

How it compares to ZFS, I don't know. But since I have been using ReiserFS 4 I have noticed at least a 15% increase in overall read write performance. And this is noted by using the hdparm -Tt and comparing it to the ReiserFS 3.6 that was originally formatted on my drives.

One thing though, I haven't had any serious data loss or corruption in the last couple years using ReiserFS. I have with ext2 and ext3 but not ReiserFS. devil

The other powerful attribute is the lack of needing to defragment the drive, something that all Windows systems seem to need, even the NTFS system. Gotta love the *nix based FS... takes all the maintenance out of the equation for you! devil
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RE: ... ReiserFS 4
GreyGeek 9th Aug 2007
I don't kow about ReiserFS v4 but I've been using ReiserFS V3 since it was in beta and never once lost data.

In one situation ReiserFS v3 was on a bulletin board system that allowed tax payers to phone in and check on the status of their returns. The system was up 24/7 for 18 months without the loss of a single byte of data, except when ReiserFS was called upon twice during that period to recover data during reboot when Squirrels short-circuited power lines and brought the entire building down. The APC failed on both occasions, too, so I don't use them any more.
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APC or UPS in general?
shraven 10th Aug 2007
I'm not sure if you meant generic UPS failed or specifically the APC brand UPS failed.
We've had nothing but problems with APC - just fails when called upon. Of course they always seem to have some explanation, but that completely overlooks the idea that this is the failsafe backup to prevent power loss - so if they can't work out the bugs and I still have a reasonable chance of losing power when utility power dies, what's the point of spending all that money to ensure I never lose power? They sputter and struggle, but never come up with a reply.

But who do you go to? APC seems to be a bigger monopoly than Microsoft.
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Haven't used that fs
melekali 9th Aug 2007
I don't lose vital data because I understand appropriate and aggressive backup methodology. I shouldn't have to be so fastidious to protect myself from the file system. Perhaps I ought to try it...
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Good theory, stick with it
intrepi@... 9th Aug 2007
Your theory is good and you should stick with it but I'm one who tends to think differently and the reason why is simple. The Japanese have taught us that they are not ones to invent but take others inventions and perfect them. This has made them a domineering force in the car and motorcycle industries as GM, Ford and Chrysler have all felt their presence in more ways than balance sheets. Factory closures, loss of market and price lowering all account for severe losses. God help Microsoft if the Japanese get hold of a Linux OS and decide to perfect it like Honda did with their cars. Seriously, how would or could you perfect their cars as Mercedes are no more reliable than a Honda Accord, Toyota Camry or Lexus which has a similar price tag. Personally, I like Windows OS but I really dislike what Microsoft has done with it's license terms and conditions but more importantly how they FORCE you to prove to them it's their product over and over again. You may be able to accept this aspect of Microsoft, I won't as I feel it is not up to me to protect their software or spend my time doing it. Activation, certification and proving it's a qualified product are just a few of the many things Microsoft find other ways to have it looked after without involving me. If they are so good at developing their OS, they can find a way of looking after their piracy issues as I'm tired of doing it for them.
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Too late...
Linux User 147560 9th Aug 2007
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WGA has no place in a business!
SpikeyMike 3rd May 2011
@intrepi@... Agreed!

Operating Systems have become commodity items. Using license keys or serial numbers for an OS as if it were a $25,000 engineering package is laughable.

Let's not kid ourselves here - Microsoft says they are doing this to combat piracy - Unless WGA is 100% ineffective, they've reduced piracy by some unknown percentage.

How much has the price of Windows dropped since they introduced WGA again?

Lastly, WGA precludes windows from being used in a business. Right now, with reduced functionality, you may still have use of your computer. What's to stop Microsoft from ratcheting this down?

-Mike
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Rebadging
hmcm@... 9th Aug 2007
And of course Apple (again rebadging someone else's technology) is going to save the day.

Good for Apple. Isn't that the point of open systems? Why create another proprietary system?

And haven't those fellas in Redmond gone out and bought a whole slew of technologies they didn't invent? The difference is that once they rebadge something, it becomes proprietary.
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MS have nearly always erbadging someone else's technology, like MS Excel, MS DOS, MS SQL, First TCP/IP stack, MS Windows etc...

They do HAVE developed one product them self, and that is the original MS Basic that was in ROM on the first IBM PC. That was the one that Mr B. Gates himself was one of the coders on. Developed on a Unix system, if I not remember wrong (which I might on this last part).
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Real issues
mds_z 10th Aug 2007
In the last few years, I've had two NTFS drives fail. Not in hardware, but by the loss of both MFTs. Suddenly, with no warning. I have good security and system maintenance software and I follow best (or at least good) practices, including backups. Which is why I didn't lose too much data. But on 100+ GB drives, even a small percentage is a lot.

Fortunately, I ran across a program called Handy Recovery which helped minimize the loss. Even though I have difficulty recommending anything that uses any form of product activation. And Spinrite 6 verified that the drives were not affected by any physical problems. So it was apparently a problem in the file system.

I too thought that NTFS was very robust, but I'd never had that kind of catastrophic failure with FAT or FAT32, even a couple of times when disk compression was involved. Having 90% of the market proves nothing, since most users I know and even some of the IT people don't really understand that much about computers. It's a black box to them. They use what's available in their price range or what they're given. Most would still be using Win98, if factors didn't push them to newer versions.

I use best of breed software, rather than relying on a single source solution. No reason for Apple not to do the same. And it's not as if Microsoft has never done it. Have you noticed how many companies and software programs they've bought or co-opted over the years? They didn't even develop the original version of DOS. They have probably used far more of other people's work than Apple has. Or ever will. Not that I like Apple as a company, but the truth is what it is.
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BS -Mr Harris
croberts 8th Aug 2007
How MS puts your data at risk? What a stupid headline when 3/4 of the article points out that that antique NTFS does a reasonable job at handling errors which is on-par or slightly better than file systems on Linux.

Sure, there are better file systems in the works. I'm pretty sure Microsoft has some proprietary ones in the works too that you are not privy to.

In any event, only an idiot would conclude the file system puts your data at risk. Aside from a serious system crash, what puts your data at risk are external factors like power failure, drive failure, drive damage from moving a powered-on external USB drive, etc.

Not withstanding the dramatic BS headline, having a 10-15 minute UPS, with at least a mirrored array = NO PROBLEMS whether running NTFS or EXT3 or Reiser. In that 1-million event where the journaling file system fails, you will fall back on your backup (which you should be doing anyway to protect against hardware failures).

A total BS story. You should find something useful to blog about.
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Contributr
Go back and read the article
R Harris 8th Aug 2007
Better yet - go and read the thesis.




If you haven't had any data corruption count yourself lucky, not smart.




Also, I didn't say Microsoft was worse than the others - they are on a par. They all
stink. But because they are the biggest vendor, they put more data at risk than any
other vendor.




Isn't that obvious?




Robin
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Are you serious?
croberts 8th Aug 2007
>> Also, I didn't say Microsoft was worse than the others - they are on a par

Maybe you should have picked a different headline then, but I guess that wouldn't drive readers to the blog.

I sure don't dispute that journaling systems can fail, but I've run CRCs on whole directories (for indentification of duplicate files when servers were being migrated). On 90 GIG of data, there were no failures after files had been copied from one Windows 2000 advanced server to another via 100 Meg lan connection.

So based on _MY_ real life experience, if NTFS would hypothetically fail on one file per 90+ gig, that's acceptable because like a proper admin I keep backups. I highly doubt the failure would be even close to that. As I said, external failures like power would be more of a worry because circuitry is in an inconsistant state when voltage is dropping.

Not withstanding the thesis, the risk is small enough to be eliminated with backups you should be doing anyway.
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Number of files
croberts 8th Aug 2007
And no, this was not 10 9gig dvd files. This was thousands of files, most of which fell into the 200k to 800k range.
Croberts, you seem to be under the impression that this article is claiming NTFS introduces errors or something. That's not what it's about. Here's the actual research paper itself:
http://www.cs.wisc.edu/wind/Publications/iron-sosp05.pdf

It's not about file systems CREATING errors. It's about how file systems HANDLE errors WHEN they happen. This includes hardware and software problems, buggy drivers, media failure, power outage, kicking the machine, dropping your laptop in the water, or whatever.

>I've run CRCs on whole directories

Good for you, but totally irrelevant to the issue at hand, which is how file systems RESPOND to problems. Assuming that rare events are not important just because they are rare is stupid.

Do Ford and GM sit around waiting for someone to get in a real crash in their cars? Heck no. They do crash testing. Same thing here. Cause a crash, and then look and see how well the contents survive.

>there were no failures after files had been copied

Again, totally irrelevant. It's not about how many times you drove to work without getting in a wreck. It's about what happens when you DO get into a wreck.

>if NTFS would hypothetically fail on one file per 90+
>gig, that's acceptable

So since you once copied 90 gigs successfully with dedicated high-end server hardware, therefore nobody needs to worry about file system errors on their home computers?

This blog headline is misleading and obviously only intended to get attention. But the research paper it refers to is real stuff, and explains in great detail how and why file systems can fail. Since you've obviously not read it, I suggest you do so.
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theory & reality
setekh1984 9th Aug 2007
I'm sorry but there is a difference between theory and reality... In the real world you expect things to fail and generally you expect they are going to fail more often than you would like... In theory you could build the perfect file system that would manage everything perfectly, truthfully though in the real world its not necessary.

if data is important to you it doesn't matter if it gets lost, because you ensure you have at least one backup of it at all times regardless of whether its on a home pc or on a corporate server. Even with the perfect file system you would still need to do this because of viruses and hardware, software and human errors. So why waste time writing something that works within a reasonable margin for error.

As always this research paper, though interesting it may be to some people that have no concept of reality, those of us that live and work in a real environment have better things to do than read a research paper that comes to the same conclusion that anyone with half a brain could come to... things arent perfect.

Frankly i think the time and effort used on this research paper could of been better spent working out solutions to issues that affect us in reality.
>Frankly i think the time and effort used on this research
>paper could of been better spent working out solutions to
>issues that affect us in reality.

In other words, you did not read the paper at all, and are just spouting random noise.

Here's a clue for you:
Restoring files from backup costs time and money.
During the time you are restoring files from backup, you are
not getting productive work done.

Clue #2: Backups are discrete, not continuous. It's impossible to keep 100% up-to-date backups of a dynamic process.


Everyone's hollering about making backups, as if somehow having backups actually SOLVES a problem.

Here's another clue:
Backups are only useful AFTER SOMETHING HAS GONE WRONG. A more reliable file system is not a replacement for backups. It's a way to avoid having to USE those backups as frequently.

Now instead of spouting off about "the real world" and "theory versus practice" I suggest you crack open that PDF and READ IT.
It's not airy-fairy theory, it's concrete research done with real hardware and software.

Until you have taken the time to READ THE PAPER, please do not waste any more bandwidth on generalized griping about research in general.
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"Just Backup" = over-simplification
cquirke 10th Aug 2007
"if data is important to you it doesn't matter if it gets lost, because you ensure you have at least one backup of it at all times" - yeah, right.

How do you magically scope out all unwanted changes and scope in all wanted changes? That's the "backup problem". If you use time as your X-axis, then a backup old enough to avoid the corruption is also too old to include all wanted data updates.

If you make a real-time live backup a la RAID 1, then aside from the case of a single HD failure, your backup will be as instantly trashed as the live data.

There's no magic bullet, including "just backup", which is why we may always need data recovery and why attention paid to file system survivability is worthwhile.
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Yes, I'm serious
cquirke 10th Aug 2007
"On 90 GIG of data, there were no failures after files had been copied from one Windows 2000 advanced server to another via 100 Meg lan connection. So based on _MY_ real life experience..."

...with a single bulk operation on good hardware? You're going to extrapolate that to years of such activity, where there are no rules against hardware failure, such as bad RAM that causes data sectors to be splatted over file system structure?

Hmm.
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Contributr
90 Gig is a fraction of 12 TB
R Harris 15th Aug 2007
Your example proves nothing. I hope your luck holds in the future, but the odds are
against it.

Robin
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Admission from Robin Harris: "Also, I didn't say Microsoft was worse than the others - they are on a par. They all stink."

Headline from Robin Harris: How Microsoft puts your data at risk.

It's obvious your headline is grossly misleading.
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Better?
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See, if you can do it.....
croberts 8th Aug 2007
Now how hard was that headline?
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Headlines are always inflamatory
MacGeek2121 9th Aug 2007
Have you read any Macintosh articles? The headline is always negative while the
article is usually not so inflammatory. The reason for the headline is to draw
readers in to read the article and often start up the OS wars which always attract
attention. "File systems" just doesn't attract readers like "Microsoft" . When the
headline says "Apple squashes 50+ bugs", when the actual update is a
functionality update that happens to fix a couple of security bugs. The implication
is that Mac OSX is as buggy as Windows which any Mac user knows not to be true.
The truth is that any security update is good news for everyone no matter what
operating system you use, but the headlines are ALWAYS negative. Microsoft gets
the same treatment with the exception of a few writers who worship at the
Microsoft throne. You could ignore the headlines or just live with the negativity.
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Much Better...
fr0thy2. 9th Aug 2007
...
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Contributr
Therefore, 90% of the data that is at risk is thanks to Microsoft.

In addition, Microsoft is the largest and richest software company in the world.

If a company like Sun, teetering on the brink of failure for the last five years can
build a better file system, why can't Microsoft?

Because they don't care! They don't have to. Until competition makes them care.

So I stick with the headline: Microsoft puts your data at risk. And they don't care.

Robin
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So wrong
NonZealot 9th Aug 2007
Therefore, 90% of the data that is at risk is thanks to Microsoft.

Microsoft has, what, 30% of the server market? Considering how much more data is stored on servers than on desktops, it is actually doubtful that 90% of the world's data is stored on an NTFS partition.

If a company like Sun, teetering on the brink of failure for the last five years can build a better file system, why can't Microsoft?

Hmmm, maybe if Sun had been concentrating more on what their customers wanted instead of building the perfect, they wouldn't be teetering on the brink of failure! I would say MS made the right choice.

Because they don't care! They don't have to. Until competition makes them care.

As I said above, MS is a small player in the server market where data integrity is far more important than it is on the desktop. You are so wrong here.

So I stick with the headline: Microsoft puts your data at risk. And they don't care.

Your prerogative although rational readers will be less inclined now to read what you have to write. Your choice. Here, I have another headline for you:
Every minute spent reading Robin Harris's blog takes you a minute closer to death... and he doesn't care.

Well, its true, isn't it?
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Exactly
georgeou 9th Aug 2007
nt
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So you are discounting
Linux User 147560 9th Aug 2007
all the desktops out there that have hundreds, thousands and even possibly hundreds of thousands of documents, photos, movies and sound clips that a particular business has accumulated over the years? That is also part of the equation. Hence the 90% rule, that so many LOVE to tout as the bar Microsoft has set on desktop penetration.

I know on my work machine I have at least 2,000 (most likely more...) various documents, datafiles, spreadsheets, maps and images that are strictly work related. Of course they are backed up on my Linux work station so that when Windows pukes I won't lose them. devil
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No
NonZealot 9th Aug 2007
all the desktops out there that have hundreds, thousands and even possibly hundreds of thousands of documents, photos, movies and sound clips that a particular business has accumulated over the years?

No, of course not but the equation is no where near as simple as suggesting that 90% of the world's data is on NTFS.

Of course they are backed up on my Linux work station so that when Windows pukes I won't lose them.

Robin's point is that Microsoft is worse because more data is stored on NTFS than on any other file system. You prove him wrong because you've just shown that 50% of your data is on NTFS and 50% is on something else. On my home network, my wife and I both use SAMBA shares to store our documents on my Linux server. At all of the consulting jobs I've been to in my professional career, the employees do most of their work directly off the network share. In those companies, there may be 2,000 desktops but there is almost no data that is stored exclusively on the desktop.

So, thanks for proving my point that desktop marketshare is not a great indicator of data marketshare. happy
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No 100% of my files / data
Linux User 147560 9th Aug 2007
are on 2 file systems. Everything that I have to save on Windows, I have copied on my Linux machine. And that is only at work, at home, everything is 100% Linux, there are no Microsoft machines in my home, haven't been for years.

I don't think you were making a point about market share equaling data storage / file systems. devil
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So Wronger
RealNonZealot 9th Aug 2007
Hmmm, maybe if Sun had been concentrating more on what their customers
wanted instead of building the perfect, they wouldn't be teetering on the brink of
failure! I would say MS made the right choice.


Yep, the millions of clueless, along with fanboys like yourself, have accepted
Microsoft's less-than-mediocre and bug-ridden stuff that is "good enough" (and
that's being charitable) for years. You toil away and keep the house of cards going
with constant maintenence, wiping and re-installing to fix Winrot and dutifully
cleaning your Registry with a phalanx of utilities and tools. And once in awhile you
get some actual work done. Nice point that you've brought the industry to.
Luckily, there are some true innovators that force MS to lurch forward once in
awhile and get out of its own way.

As I said above, MS is a small player in the server market where data integrity is
far more important than it is on the desktop. You are so wrong here.


Actually, you're wrong, ZealotBoy. Data integrity is just as important on the
desktop....ask anyone who has their irreplaceable personal data on their desktop or
laptop. The kind of filesystem technology that Robin is talking about is actually
more important on the desktop, because users are far less likely to have proper
backups and knowlege of how to recover from disk errors that current filesystems
can't handle.

Your prerogative although rational readers will be less inclined now to read what
you have to write.


LOL....you speak for rational users? That's hilarious, especially since you
take yourself so seriously. You speak only for Windows fanboys, ZealotBoy.
Rational readers enjoy your antics, though. And No Ax's and George's too...it's a
great holy triumvirate of uncrticial Windows fanboydom!
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...because you've just shown otherwise.
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You forgot Loverock.
nix_hed 9th Aug 2007
He is Windows Fanboy #1. Even Zealot uses a Linux server.
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Pathetic
xuniL_z 13th Aug 2007
You can copy from someone's name, but you can't copy them. In a match of wits you are the obvious loser. Copying his nic was enough to make that judgement but you had to go and prove it.
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...
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Read.
The.
Research.

If you had done so you would know that the author is NOT addressing high end servers, but file systems in general, including the hundreds of photos on Grandma's desktop. See page 5 of the paper linked previously.
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Hack
shraven 10th Aug 2007
You're a wanna-be player playing the popular MS bashing card to draw attention to yourself. You're biased and you know it, but if it's the only way you can get attention, you don't have any problem with it.
Shame because your posts do seem to have some merrit, but you drown that out and prove yourself unreliable with your deliberate obtuse insistence that you're just saying it like it is when you know it's not what you say.
Spin it however you want, but don't think for a second that anyone doesn't see through your explanations.
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Wrong
waterhzrd 10th Aug 2007
Apparently they all put your data at risk, as stated in the article. Let's talk per capita loss: If all above mentioned file systems are at falt for loss xx percent of the time, then they all cause data loss the same. Market share has diddly to do with your headline.

"Therefore, 90% of the data that is at risk is thanks to Microsoft"
No, 90% of the data that is at risk is thanks to the individual users who chose to use Microsoft over the other alternatives. which had they done so according to your blog, they would have the same problem anyway, therefore and again... title should have been "How file systems put your data at risk".
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George, I agree.
Grayson Peddie 9th Aug 2007
How unprofessional!

I'd hate to say this (unprofessionally, to be honest), but he stepped way out of line for using grossly-laiden words such as "stink."

Surely, with those kinds of blogs like this, this is making a website unprofessional--surely not the looks, but the way I read his blog, it seems this website is driven by hobbyist, even though this website provides news.

I didn't mean to criticize the bloggers and this website, but it's time to set a new standards for professionalism, stop using grossly-laiden words like "stink," and stop using scare tactics like "How Microsoft puts your data at risk." It's kind of like "your Mac stinks," and by mention this, that would hurt anyone's feelings for those using a Mac.

Phew... *sigh* Give us a break!
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Stink should be reserved for when it's deserved. For example, GoDaddy gets 20,000 of its customer's sites hacked because of a year old problem; that really STINKS. In this case Microsoft is no better or no worse than anyone else and the title unfairly singles Microsoft out.
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Microsoft gets singled out
maldain 9th Aug 2007
because they are holding more data than all the rest put together which means regardless of anything else their deficiencies have a much greater effect than anybody else. Basically, if everybody else fixed all their problems and Microsoft didn't the reality today is that we'd still be in the same situation as the bulk of data is stored on Microsoft systems. Just the way it is and if Linux ever gains a similar market share the headline for the same abuse would be "How Linux puts your data at risk". Because as the Microsoft first, last and only crowd has pointed out Microsoft has the lion's share of the market which is why virus writers and malware producers target Microsoft operating systems instead of OSX or Linux or UNIX or CMS or TSO or MVS/XA or DOS/VSE or any of the host of other OS's out in the world.
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Until we shield our computers from faulty Mains power, random radio noise injected from external wires, oh and shield from radiation particles from outer space which causes random bit errors in memory. Can we get close to a external error free system.

Then the last hurdle, bug free hardware and software can be looked at!

NTFS loses data. Fact of life.

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